I’ve been trying to find the right words to describe the MoveOn.org advertising fiasco on General Betraeus. I think The Rude One found the right balance.
Obviously, the Rude Pundit doesn’t believe in the Bob Shrum/DLC school of cautious political rhetoric, where you try real hard not to piss off the other side ’cause they might hit back. The language of inclusion, though, need not be the language of capitulation. Let’s put this in historical perspective: You’re Tom Hayden. Let the Rude Pundit and others be Abbie Hoffman. Out here in the blogworld, we can say shit like “Petraeus/Betray Us” because, well, shit, that’s what we do. Let us be the dirty fuckin’ hippies.
We need you to be mainstream, MoveOn. We need you to be the grown-up. The mainstream media is distracted by shiny objects. Don’t actually try to dangle a sparkly charm in front of them.
Yeah…basically.
Daily Kos has the same problem.
ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR FUCKING MIND? where the hell is this country going? I don’t see you organising marches or mobilizing gettogethers or letter writing campaigns! Get your head out of your ass Boo!
I have been a steady and will contunue to be a steady reader but what the hell are you thinking. What we don’t need is another “mainstream” bullshit org. I am so pissed that I have to stop now. just one last thing- What the hell does that ad say that is wrong?
Ya better post a list of all the errors Boo or you got big follower probs.
Over the top here, billjpa, but …
Booman, we need all kind of opposition efforts. Your reasoned arguments have not so far swayed enough.
Not in the least bit.
I am very disappointed with the repeated wishy-washy mixed signals sent by Dems. Someone has to stand up to the bullies in the GOP, and the Dems aren’t doing it.
The Bloggers are already the adults, MoveOn is starting to grow, and the Dems are the little kids that can’t/won’t fend for themselves.
Bill,
It’s much like in war you don’t want an infantryman flying the F-22’s and you don’t want the flyboys going toe-to-toe in hand-to-hand combat against trained killers. You need the right person to do the right job at the right time, and MoveOn acted like it was still a grunt when they’ve moved on to flying above the fray. Their mission is air superiority – to keep with the martial theme – to make sure that the opposition isn’t dropping bombs on our heads. They can’t park down in the trenches and slug it out any more, they have to fight according to where they are now.
It’s a different kind of fight that requires different tactics.
BTW, at the end of World War II the Japanese had hundreds of usable combat aircraft, but they lacked the skilled pilots to fly them…
Cognitive dissonance: first nauseated by Rummy’s civility and now alarmed by the fuss about Betrayus? Huh?
The only problem I see with the MoveOn ad is that it is a one-off. If there were five different orgs running ads like this once a week, dragging another general, another CEO of a military contracting company, another defense policy board member mercilessly, viciously through the mud, smear shit all over them, denigrate them sadistically in a way that hurts not only them but their families, then and only then will real in-roads be made in the obscene approval ratings for the US military and hence in the clout of the military-industrial complex. You have been overly potty trained Booman.
You know I had exactly the opposite thought today – MoveOn is the bomb thrower that allows the actual elected officials to appear reasonable.
The MoveOn thing was not a bomb. It was a teeny weeny (and moist) liberal firecracker. Remember what happened to Kerry and to McCain? How they were hammered again and again and again? Those were bombs. Bombs don’t just aggravate, they dismember. McCain was dismembered in South Carolina, remember?
A bomb would have been a sustained campaign denigrate Petraeus personally. To ridicule him in a way that makes it difficult for him to stand in front of his troops. Treat him as a non-person, again and and again and again. Fuck him in a way that makes him say to himself I wish I wasn’t as controversial a character. And makes the next general in line say, in a situation like that I’ll let the White House take the heat, rather than have me take it.
You are correct – my metaphor was poor. I keep thinking about Max Cleland these days…
Im not so sure that the ad didn’t achieve the intended result. I believe that MoveOn got what it was seeking: attention (along with the postive attention comes the negative). The right might rail against it, but many others saw it. I don’t believe that opinions of MoveOn have changed, the right still dislikes it and the left largely approves.
I’m feelin’ Boo’s post.They should have called him “Puppetraeus” as did one of Boo’s commenters. Snarky, more to the point, difficult to refute, and less of a target for the dirty-*@#$%^!-hippie meme,although we need back-benchers too- Lord knows Wingnut bomb-throwing is a Fortune-500 industry and we need to compete…
I’m going to bed but before I do I got one last question. Its the same one I keep asking everyone I know: What in that ad is incorrect?
Lets list them and then we can see!
Just don’t tell me that their language is incendiary!
We all know what the Marquis of Queensbury Rules pussy language has gotten us.
Sleep well all!
If I had a dime for everytime someone was right and lost an argument because of their tone or presentation…
Have you been married?
Sorry, disagree again. I am not married to a Republican 🙂
OK snark aside – I guess fundamentally we disagree on the role of MoveOn. I can think of better language to use, but the bottom line was the ad sparked a debate that raised awareness that there are many that doubt Mr. Petraeus’ credibility. Unfortunately there are a lot more people that read the New York Times and watch TV news than read Glenn Greenwald.
Moveon lost influence and forced Dems to badmouth them. Yes, some Dems are idiots and distance themselves from their allies when it is not necessary. And that happened in this case.
But Moveon’s job is to be savvy as well as right on the issues. They did not show savvy here.
It’s not a big deal. They’ll recover. But it weakened their voice and therefore it weakened all of our power. And that means this particular campaign failed.
Yes, it raised some awareness. That could have been done w/o screwing it up.
I get the argument–I really do–but I still disagree. The Dems folded…as usual. The wingnuts were aided and abetted by the supine MSM…as usual.
(Part of this whining from both the Dems and the media is because they are so afraid of the military…don’t want to piss them off. Some of them may be still smarting from doing their jobs in Vietnam. I’ve heard military brass blame the media about Vietnam with my own ears. But OF COURSE they should fear the media…not the other way around.)
All this talk about impugning someone’s character? That’s a rethug specialty (see Max Cleland). Not that Petraeus has much character to impugn, given his (largely unexamined) bad record…which is kinda the point. But whatever, military hagiography is the only sign of objectivity (That didn’t happen on its own, of course) and junior was perfectly happy to hide behind the pure Petraeus’ apron strings.
Also, there’s all this talk about “listening to the generals instead of elected politicians” from the wingnuts. Unless we are finally a banana republic in name, too, then this is bogus and someone needs to knock the dust off their Constitutions. IOW, the military is controlled by civilians…i.e., Petraeus is a friggin’ employee. We listen to the politicians because we elect them. We do not elect active military generals.
Besides, what the freak was he gonna say different than what his boss wanted him to say? Common sense, people! The American people were already out in front of that one. Folks were pointing out the fact that we all have job performance reviews–how many times are our own words and opinions and accepted on face value? Zilch.
This stupid ass talking point should have been knocked down long ago. The Daily Show made quick work of this recently, showing how Petraeus and junior’s talking points align so perfectly as to be nearly verbatim.
The Dems should have fought back, and as usual, they tucked tail and ran, and they will use this as a reason not to fight back.
If you fight back against these cretins, they will hit back. Expect it. Learn how to take a punch. Hit back–strategically…and harder.
I agree that we should ‘learn how’.
Married? How many times have you won an argument by being stridently unreasonable then? Speaking for myself I can say: many.
But you have to do it right. As long as a little voice in your head keeps saying to you, “but Maw always told me a good boo is a reasonable boo…” I dare say you won’t go far with this approach.
The problem with so much commentary like this is that it relies on cute in-jokes like “Betrayus”. Simply stating the facts, i.e., that Petraeus is just a PR point man for the administration and is lying to paint a rosy picture, and that the Bush plan for Iraq is to keep the war going so he can hand it off to the next president, would be more effective.
Unless, of course, MoveOn wants to keep preaching to the choir.
I can certainly understand the frustration I’m hearing here, though. Our democracy and the rule of law have out-and-out failed, and this doesn’t seem to bother anyone in a position to do anything about it; in fact, they seem determined to rub our noses in it. And if people get overly excited about it, frantic even, it’s because the failure of democracies leads to one of three possible outcomes: tyranny, revolution, or civil war. (I’m being optimistic — you can actually have all three, which leads to a failed state.)
I don’t think things are going to hell in a handbasket next week, but if they don’t turn around soon, this country is not going to be a place anyone will want to live in ten or twenty years. What’s so alarming, and why I think so many of us are becoming justifiably (if not helpfully) shrill about it, is that “our” leaders seem completely unalarmed. It’s as if they believe that American democracy is immortal. It is not. Plainly.
It’s as if they believe that American democracy is immortal.
To paraphrase the late Rick James: Denial is a hell of a drug.
This is the problem with so many folks, and it keeps us in a trick bag of never dealing with our problems. Part of who we are as Americans is this belief that our “democracy” was always thus and will ever be. Start pointing out the obvious, and I don’t think some would be able to function.
For those whose denial isn’t quite as deep: If we concede that American democracy is NOT immortal, then we are on the hook to make sure we shore it up. Who wants to be that person?
So in denial we remain.
Gen. P is another MacArthur and gets what he deserves. He went into this gig for his 4th star and took on a job that the rest of generals knew to be a fool’s errand. He’s that kind of really bright fool though, convinced that what’s good for his career is the right course. Before this is done, Bush is going to bomb Iran and the butcher bill for Iraq is going to double overnight. Generals who run through their troops to feed their vanity, well the circle of Hell for them is near the bottom of the pit and real cold.