This is not an attack on Josh Marshall, for whom I have a lot of respect. But I want to take a look at his ruminations about Bill Clinton because I find them extremely telling. Marshall’s column is a kind of inner dialogue about his feelings about the Big Dog. As such, most of it isn’t up for debate…if that is how Marshall feels, then that is how he feels. What’s interesting is that he feels the way he does.
For starters, let’s skip down to near the end of his column:
With the exception of a few days in early January I’ve gone on the assumption for many months that Hillary Clinton will be the Democratic nominee.
Almost every major blogger has been operating under the same assumption, and that has, overall, had a crippling effect on the blogosphere’s ability to take an honest look at both the Clintons and the Clinton campaign. It’s a combination of not wanting to injure the eventual nominee and not wanting to get on the wrong side of power. In all my time blogging, nothing has frustrated me more than this sudden cowardice on the part of so many of my colleagues. But Marshall isn’t a coward. Marshall genuinely likes the Clintons.
To give you some perspective, I don’t think there are many people who are bigger fans of Bill Clinton than I am or who’ve expended more ink defending him and his presidency…
…If the constitution allowed it, I’d happily have [Bill] Clinton back. I’d happily have Hillary in his place. But I don’t want them both.
Here is where Marshall and I differ. The only ink I ever spent defending Bill Clinton was in email during l’affaire Lewisnky and I deeply resented having to lower myself to defend what I thought was a higher principle. I celebrated like crazy on election night in 1992. Twelve years of Republican rule had left a feeling of suffocation and, watching Clinton and Gore celebrating their victory, I felt like for the first time in forever I could breath again. The Clintons immediately provided something even more suffocating…Republican control of both Houses of Congress. But it was the fundraising scandals of 1996 that permanently alienated me from the Clintons. They did not get my vote in 1996 and I went to work for Bill Bradley to make sure that Al Gore didn’t continue the Clinton legacy.
Don’t get me wrong. I deeply resented the way the Republicans libeled and slandered the Clintons, and I couldn’t believe how hostile the press coverage was. The spectacle did engender some defensiveness. And I constantly marveled about Bill Clinton’s ability to communicate. The Clintons’ dishonesty, corruption, and, yes, tawdriness, paled in comparison with their political opponents. Nevertheless, defending the Clintons was an exhausting and ultimately unrewarding exercise. For those that defended him against the Lewinsky allegations (before he confessed), it was humiliating. The only thing that maintained any sense of good will towards the Clintons was the despicable tactics of their foes.
Somehow none of these feelings seem to shared by Marshall, whose opinion of Clinton seems to be slipping for the first time.
My relationship with Bill Clinton is as a member of the party that he is, as I’ve said, the leader of or at least the most revered elder statesman of. And I feel like he’s violating the compact that I have with him.
For me, that is like observing a bizarro world. Bill Clinton violated his compact with me repeatedly, both when he was president and, particularly, after he left office. When he reacted to the stunning losses of 1994 by hiring Dick Morris and violating every campaign finance law known to man, he violated his compact. When he forced me to defend obstruction of justice as, yes bad, but not impeachable, he violated his compact. When he decided to abandon leadership and befriend Poppy Bush (compare his actions to those of Al Gore) he violated his compact.
His campaign tactics over the last month are not some kind of break with the past and certainly no revelation. This is just a continuation of the broken compact I’ve had with Bill Clinton for over a decade.
As I look around, I am often stunned to see who is supporting the Clinton restoration. What’s becoming clear to me is that a lot of people never felt like the Clintons had violated their trust. They are only now coming to grips with the ugly face of Clintonism, and the scales are falling from their eyes. Even now, Marshall cannot make a complete break.
The presidency is a singular job. It should stay that way. And it’s precisely because I’m looking forward to supporting her if she is the nominee that I hate seeing her being overshadowed by her spouse and having her husband bigfoot the process which diminishes her and makes me think her presidency could be a 4 year soap opera where Bill won’t shut up and let her have a shot at doing the job.
You can see him struggling. After all, as he says, “I don’t think there are many people who are bigger fans of Bill Clinton than I am or who’ve expended more ink defending him and his presidency.” It’s hard to let go. But I can sense that Clinton’s comments last night, comparing Obama’s victory to Jesse Jackson’s have pushed Marshall to the brink. It’s creating a cognitive dissonance, as he comes to the realization that his own sense of ethics has been irreparably violated. Not so for me. I never expected anything better from Bill Clinton. I lost my respect for him and, more importantly, my trust in him, a long, long time ago.
Marshall does good work as a blog journalist, but he has always been a conservative/centrist Democrat. I’ve seen him pine for the Clinton days before at his blog, so his angst now is not surprising, as is his inability to fully understand what he is seeing.
breaking news…Teddy Kennedy is endorsing Obama.
Wonderful news. The Clinton’s reign in the Democratic party is over. No more Republican Lite, triangulation, comprise, like the “states’ rights” welfare program, not the one as we know it, and other garbage Clinton gave to the Republicans, that had his closet staff fleeing from his second term.
Viva la the Kennedys.
nothing is over….not by a long shot.
Once retained so much skepticism about whether a Black candidate could even come close to winning the presidency. Fact of the matter is that the southern block of states still hankering for the Rebel flag will vote Republican anyway, regardless of what Democrat is nominated.
Still that Massachusetts Hillary-Obama differential is troubling. Maybe Ted’s intervention will change things a bit. Also we have seen what impact Obama can have once his organization enters a state, and he begins to speak about his agenda.
Does it occur to anyone that having a black candidate maybe the only way to really win the south. Let’s just face it. If we can get 90% of the black population registered to vote and motivated, they will swamp the whites. The poor whites have low motivation to vote and the rich ones are not numerous enough to compensate. The blacks have high motivations. They are why more liberal than the white majority and would love to elect one of their own. We should have nominated an Obama years ago, only I wish he had politics closer to Edwards. Most blacks are ideologically closer to Edwards than Obama.
Just in terms of statistics, it may all depend on how far the white polulation has come in 50 years. Studies show that the youth are becoming less bigoted than their parents. Perhaps having Black quarterbacks on deep southern university teams is helping, as well as having minority newsperson speaking on TV every day.
Can only hope that enough progress has been made to overcome racism in presidential elections.
if 100,000 more dems come out to vote per state than repubs….i think we can overcome the rascist white vote.
and it looks like that may be happening.
oscar may get his cheesesteak yet.
following up on his niece, Caroline in her OP-ED Sunday NYT, published on same day as Frank Rich’s ‘you don’t want Hillary’ opinion piece.( a must read)
Ted must have read this article in The Sunday Telegraph, UK in the same meme as Rich – chaos in the White House:
Lawd.
link to Frank Rich’s column
The Billary Road to Republican Victory
a must read.. lays out what’s ahead for the national campaign
So we’ve been vetted. Ah, the post White House years. Billary should not throw stones.
ive chosen your comment to respond to shergald but im not addressing you specifically.
i chose it because of your ad for carters book…and how the message of this diary reminds me of the moment when i felt the same feelings abotu jimmy carter….and how i still think back to those moments.
in 1987…actually its been almost exactly 21 years ago this month…i was at a string of protests in the south….one of them was at st marys, ga, the home of the trident submarine…and moved on to cape canveral fl….the test site for the D5 missile, which is carried on the trident submarine….the D5 missile was a first strike weapon…and developing that kind of weapon was seen as an act of aggression by mainly russia….it was destabilizing, if you understand the tightrope we used to walk (i guess we still walk it) with our mutually assured destruction mindset…and i was horrified back then to find out jimmy carter supported that weapons program…i felt like he had broken our compact….that is very much the vocabulary i used back then….jimmy carter was supposed to be the peacemaker…regardless of his other foibles and imperfections….i could always ground myself in him as peacemaker….and absolve him of his other mistakes and weaknesses…..except for that one issue….that he supported that weapons program when he was president and after.
now 21 years later….it still bothers me….but i have to see it as part of the bigger picture….and thats the way i look at the clintons….yes they have and are continuing to fuck up in many ways…..but i cant forget the good stuff both of them have done….and they HAVE done good stuff…..and in the end arent they just like me? completely imperfect and likely to screw up something….but do i have to completely condemn them because of certain things they have done that suck? im trying to put it in perspective….i mean they arent bush…..there is virtually nothing i can say positive about bush…..and i feel justified in my critique of him ….but i cant assign the same feelings of disgust to carter or to the clintons…yes i am disappointed….but i really am trying to keep my eye on the bigger picture and be fair.
im trying….its getting harder with the clintons….but i am trying.
Getting harder with the Clintons is a good way to put. Yes, Jimmy Carter won’t be known as a great president. Unfortunately, one decent contribution he made: to advocate for human rights internationally, led to Iran’s downfall and the domestic and foreign policy mess his last year of office was noted for.
Still, Carter is a man of principle, and that man is now doing work on behalf of poor people around the world. One of his contributions is his book on apartheid or not in Palestine.
Feel I know where you are coming from.
Ted’s one of my favorites but I can hear the drumbeat already starting up for the Right
Chappaquiddick, Chappaquiddick!
From Slate this morning:
Dirty tricks ala the old Republicans will no longer work on Democrats…..Bill.
the sweets in all of this win is that Obama, the upstart from nowhere, managed to deck the two Clintons and their machine.
No small feat.
To Mr. Isis, I say
How sweet it is.
Go read Frank Rich’s column in Sunday NYTimes. Billary clearing a path for Republicans. They cannot throw stones.
It’s those independents who are troublesome, if they perceive the Hillary and Bill Show as providing a compromise between Republican and Democratic politics.
I hope they are wiser this time around.
Booman-
This is one of your best diaries ever. Thoughtful, respectful tone, but you get your points across. I agree with you completely. This is the kind of fair and factual assessment we need of each of the candidates, but most especially the Clintons, given their long history and position in the party.
thank you.
here here….and thanks to the booman community who havent allowed the discussion to degenerate into childing bullshit arguing like some other places that i wont mention.
that should have been childish bullshit arguing
i agree with this. i happened to read josh’s clinton piece as i regularly visit there and respect his opinions – plus he has a lot of other good people working with him too. but i really felt disenchanted by the clinton piece and couldn’t believe that he would hold them both in such high esteem.
thanks for laying this out booman. and also being respectful of josh. who i do think is wrong on this one.
i still like edwards best. hahaha. but if it’s obama, i can certainly live with that choice. (a billion times better than the neo-cons and their hellish spawn) anyone but the clintons. again. good grief. like i said to a friend, if clinton wins, i’m moving to mexico….but, hey, i already live there!!
I think a lot of smart people spent an awful lot of effort in the 90’s defending Bill Clinton from the attacks from the right wing that were, in fact, over-the-top, uncalled for and damaging to our country. Just like you did. Just like I did.
I think it’s easy and appropriate to blame Bill Clinton for doing things that were wrong AND that laid him open to these attacks. At the same time we all know that nobody is perfect, there will always be some flaw and that the right wing was there to exploit ANY flaw and use it, to the detriment of our country.
What I’m saying, not very well, is that for many people blinders were necessary during the 1990’s. Multi-tasking is hard. A lot of people understood that the real danger was from the right wing attacks because it was danger as an ideological matter, as a way to move the country further in the direction that Reagan and even more the neo-conservatives wanted. The right wing wanted to make sure that the Clinton presidency could not move the country in another direction and therefore they needed to discredit and de-legitimize the Clinton presidency for their own purposes. (They will attempt it again with the next Democratic president but they themselves are weaker now.) The effort it took to fight the right wing necessitated blinders for some people who felt they couldn’t fight the right and be morally outraged at Bill Clinton at the same time.
We’re in a different time now. There is no need to defend Bill Clinton at the same level as before because an attack on Bill Clinton by the right wing is not, in and of itself, harmful to our country. (I would say that unjustified smears are harmful to our political process because they are an attempt to manipulate the political process – but they’ve existed since Adams ran against Jefferson.)
I think that’s why the blinders are slowly coming off.
I think it is possible to say that there are many fair accusations against the Clintons AND there are many unffair attacks that happen against the Clintons. I think it is possible to say, as I did last night, that the media narrative last night with regard to the Clintons was unfair – in the sense that anytime the media decides to impose a narrative it is inherently unfair because it is not balanced and thoughtful – it is superficial. But that doesn’t mean that many points underlying it are not true. And should not be acknowledged.
I too get frustrated reading bloggers who will not acknowledge or even discuss the possibility of the truth of these matters.
Good post.
I’ve been amazed at the number of so-called progressive bloggers who have dismissed the recent behavior of Bill Clinton and other Clinton surrogates as “politics as usual.” The backlash by the voters of South Carolina should tell us that at least the electorate has some sense of common decency.
Clinton – hmm, let’s see. For a start, he maintained the sanctions on Iraq that wound up killing as many as a million people, half of them children, which caused three high-level UN officials to resign in disgust. The head of the UN Oil for Food programme, Dennis Halliday, commented:
When asked about this devastating toll, Clinton’s Secretary of State Madeleine Albright replied:
He bombed the al-Shifa pharmaceutical plant in Sudan, a war crime which may have killed as many as “several tens of thousands” of people (in the assessment of the German Ambassador to Sudan, writing in the Harvard International Review). He supported the Israeli occupation throughout the period which saw a near doubling of the number of Israeli settlers, and then conspired with Barak to (falsely) blame Arafat for the failure of the Camp David talks. He increased military aid to Turkey just as its campaign of terrorism and ethnic cleansing against the Kurds was reaching its peak and supported Suharto’s atrocities against the people of East Timor and West Papua.
After leaving office, he endorsed the Iraq war, an illegal aggression.
This is not a man worthy of anyone’s support.
.
Underestimating Islamist terror in 90’s:
1st WTC bombing – Mogadishu – East-African Embassy bombing – Saudi Khobar Towers bombings – Pakistan (ISI)
Sharing universal blame for genocide in Rwanda, Congo and former Yugoslavia.
Very important not getting I-P closer to a peaceful settlement in the Middle-East.
"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."
want to thank you booman for being clear about what s up with the clintons. i read josh’s beginning horrified semi-realization with a little amusement and a lot of frustration. how can he be so sharp on so much, and not have been disgusted a long time ago. triangulation of the toe-sucking variety should have been enough way back when. how hard is it to see that the unhealthy governmental drama of the 90’s came partly out of malformed personalities, especially in the chief executive. notice that obama slipped ‘no more drama’ (approx.) into his speech last night.
anyway, your writing on this has been almost a refuge in last few weeks as the repulsive hypocrisy of clinton-style politics (not to mention the return of the wagging finger, lecturing those interfering with what it wants) has gummed up the process that needs to turn our country away from what i think most would agree is a course to disaster.
The self-righteous morality of the repugnants and wingers was very repugnant and I stood by Mr. Clinton in my thoughts because he was set up and pilloried for no evident reason. He lied, good, so did everyone else. I tuned out on him completely when he went hobnobbing with Mr. Bush, Sr., as he tried, in my opinion, to let the splendor of U.S. aristocracy shine on him. Then he decided that his wife would send Bush, Sr., and himself on a world tour to bolster U.S. prestige. Well, everyone can tell him that the sight of Barak Obama taking the oath of office on January 20, 2008 will do more to transform world opinion than any vain ploy he could dream up.
Josh Marshall did extremely laudable work when the repugnants were threatening Social Security. He got the Iraq war wrong, if I’m not mistaken, and he is much less cogent and convincing when discussing people’s motives, in fact, the emotional substratum that determines many decisions, big and small. His cautiousness verges sometimes on inhibition.
It is striking and ridiculous how Mrs. Clinton is again being portrayed as the victim, as sorely mistreated by her husband who now goes around antagonizing people and putting himself right in the middle of the show, while she obviously approves of what he’s doing in her name. These people are involved in one of the most intimate relationships imaginable, marriage, and their pillow talk must be astounding. Of course, as she said, ‘I never discuss private conversations with my husband.’
It’s long time for these people to vanish and take their pyschodramatical soap and self-serving power grabs with them. I’m still trying to find out how she ever, ever got to be the Democratic senatorial candidate for New York State when she had never lived there until it was decided that she would run. Friends and business relations, I suppose, clinched the deal. Her show of emotion just before the N.H. primary was far from the first time she has played the sympathy card.
Fine post BooMan. John Edwards or Barak Obama for president. Not Mr. and Mrs. William Jefferson Clinton, better known as the Clintons, Billary or Bill and Hill. They are our friends and care deeply for everyone of us!
It’s actually freeing to see someone say exactly what I’ve been thinking.
But you simply cannot blame it all on Bill Clinton. If Hillary cannot manage him, she cannot manage the cabinet.
And more and more, I think that the only true thing Romney has said in the past months is “Imagine Bill Clinton wandering around the White House with nothing to do.”
Great post BooMan. One additional point: I think a lot of people (certainly me) became very nostalgic for the Clinton years since Bush has been president. Such an incomparably awful executive made us forget a lot of the garbage. His competence in governing is impressive but having to constantly put up with and defend the way he wielded his power and his sense of entitlement.
You’re right about the deference of bloggers too. Keep it up.
Josh Marshall fought the good fight on social security. So did a lot of Democrats. But let’s imagine that Clinton was President with a Republican congress … and triangulated his/her way towards partially privatizing it.
Clinton would claim a win, marginalize any Democrats who stood on principle, and move the nation one step farther away from FDR.
Would a Clinton with a D congress act much differently? If history is any judge, no … the successes in first two years of Bill Clinton’s administration were mainly thing that Bush I had vetoed.
Bill Clinton to Rove: “Hey, you did a marvelous job, it was just marvelous what you did!” … just days after the November 2004 election.
Boo Man,
The first time I felt betrayed by Clinton when he rammed NAFTA through. I was actively working with anti-NAFTA groups and I can still remember when, just before the vote, Bonior’s aide told me over the phone that they thought they had the votes to stop it. What happened next taught me something about how Clinton politics worked.
And Bonior’s now managing Obama’s campaign.
Well, that was the first betrayal, but it sure wasn’t the last. The guy was impressive, but I never warmed to him. He never seemed to have any qualms about walking all over his supporters.
I’ve been supporting Edwards, and I’d think he’d make a great president, but I’m fine with Obama too, and I hope that Edwards would continue playing an important role within the party and hopefully, the administration.
The Bush years have been terrible. I have no doubt he is the worst president in American history. And yet, unlike the commenter above, I have never felt the slightest nostalgia for the Clinton years. Asking myself why,it can only be because I think this country deserves a lot better. You’ve expressed my own feelings exactly.