I was playing miniature golf and watching the Olympics. How did the faith-based forum go?
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BooMan
Martin Longman a contributing editor at the Washington Monthly. He is also the founder of Booman Tribune and Progress Pond. He has a degree in philosophy from Western Michigan University.
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Not good. Obama was thoughtful, but not persuasive. He seemed hesitant, and you know he’s awkward when he’s not scripted.
McCain was funny, pithy, aggressive, and everything a republican would want him to be (pro-life, anti-liberal judges, etc.).
I’d give this one to McCain hands down. Obama needs to sharpen his sound byte muscles. He can’t always go on and on with every answer – it just doesn’t work.
That was my impression as well, though McCain sometimes was pandering too much. Also kept returning to his time as prisorer of war a few times too many without moderator check.
They’re replaying it now. Obama is up. Seems to be doing fine to me so far.
Wait until you see McCain.
And hey – don’t miss Michael Phelps, a little after the top of the next hour….
you’re telling me that John McCain came alive and didn’t mention Czechoslovakia?
Amazing, you’ll see. Maybe he’s on steroids now?? 😉
McCain had that fake gravitas look that he always gets in debates and interviews. And of course he RELUCTANTLY talked about his POW service about ten more times.
If Warren knew the issues better, he could call out McCain on his b.s. For example, if McCain doesn’t approve of Souter, Ginsberg and Breyer why did he vote to approve them? Does he really think that the cutoff point for “rich” is $5 million per year? And Warren didn’t dig into McCain’s adulterous past at all, allowing McCain to slide with a vague reference to it. For some reason I think Bill Clinton or John Edwards or Eliot Spitzer would be grilled a wee bit more.
It’s become clear to me that for Obama to win the debates, he needs to prepare like it’s the Bar exam. Study McCain’s past positions, study his voting record, study recent foreign policy history. McCain can sound very smooth even when lying, distorting, making shit up. Obama has to be able to call him out on it, knock him off his game and piss him off.
I actually think Obama did much better than McCain. McCain came across as almost robotic, virtually Kerryesque. he spit the standard conservative GOP lines, but it was from rote memorization and not conviction. He may have done himself some good with his base who was yearning for some affirmation, but any conservative with real questions about him would see right through it. I don’t think he hurt himself with his base but I don’t think he hit the home run that he needed to hit.
As for undecideds or moderates who may have been watching, no way, no how did McCain in any way ingratiate himself to them – the only ones who would consider his performance even remotely persuasive are those who already give him the benefit of the doubt; maybe he reminds them of their senile old grandpa just before grandpa lost lucidity.
Barack should certainly work to tighten up his game so that he’s more comfortable in the unscripted forums, but overall I’d say he did a good job. People in my neck of the woods that I’ve talked to loved it.
Yeah, I agree. McSame did OK from what I saw…he kept his creepy cackle and “my friends” to a minimum before I fell asleep on it (we taped because we were at a cookout when it was broadcast), he seemed to pander and to tell them what they wanted to hear. Did it reassure the audience? Perhaps with some.
But I came away thinking that Barack sounded more authentic. He sounded more thoughtful. For the debates, he can’t be thoughtful, but in this arena, it’s much better. Their was a mutual respect between Warren and him, and I think he was respected more because he didn’t pander, which 1) wouldn’t have been believable and 2) would have made him look weak, like he was afraid to stand up for his positions. And he seemed reasonable, that even if he didn’t agree with them on all their issues, he respects their positions, respects them, and wants them in the room with him, at the table. That’s one of his greatest strengths.
What I also thought was quite helpful to Obama was the very matter-of-fact way that Warren referred to Obama’s Christianity. He didn’t question it or ask him to clarify his stance for the audience. He took it for granted that he was a Christian and let him share his witness. Very important.
He also took mentioned that while Bush was “pro-life” that abortions have increased during his term. He also worked in universal health care as a measure to reduce the number of abortions.
Now, let me say that I wish he didn’t have to do this at all. I don’t like it. My standard is that if you don’t believe in something, don’t do it–but you don’t have the right to tell any other adult what to do based on your beliefs. This is especially important because I am a woman. I am an adult. I’ve been working since I was 16, and have paid my own bills since I was 19. I don’t need some moron thinking he knows how I should run my life because he believes I’m inherently inferior or evil.
Having said all of that–this is the reality of where we are now. I’m not happy about it, but it is what it is until we can change things and return some sanity to our process.
Overall, I think he did a great job with an audience not necessarily disposed to be friendly to him or his views. I think Obama did better with this audience than McCain did with Urban League audience.
This is my impression, even though I didn’t watch it, from reading the comments on Daily Kos. Adjusting for the drama-queen factor, it sounded to me like McCain went in trying to shore up his base, while Obama went in trying to grab liberal and moderate voters. And it sounds like each did what he needed to do. One of the Kossacks pointed out that Obama swept the Indies and Dems on the C-SPAN call-ins.
It also put McCain on record, clearly, as being anti-abortion. So anybody with any doubts about that now has no excuse. McCain went in and simply recited right-wing extremism. That might play well at a white megachurch in a pit of psychos like Orange County, but it ain’t gonna play too well in other places.
Obama went in and had a conversation — a good one, I gather, from the fact that he received a very good standing ovation when he finished. McCain gave his stump speech.
If it happened as I imagine it happened, I’ll take it.
That was my take as well.
McCain was also trying to be likable, because we know he is a nasty piece of work. I think it worked to a certain degree. But basically, it was red meat, hot button stuff.
Obama is NOT going to win all of these types. That’s OK. What I am hoping is that at least some of them can be reasonable, and use their critical thinking skills about where we are as a country; where they are individually.
If they are honest, then there is only one choice.
If they are wrapped up in their zealotry, then there is only one choice.
Which is why Obama was probably poised to win a few voters last night there. Having seen Obama in — what, about 700,000 debates during the primaries (?) — he’s at his best when he does his calm Professor Barack thing. And that’s what I gather he did last night, which is good, since that’s how to keep the zealotry to a minimum. Have a conversation, not a fight.
Note, too, that Obama ticked up a point in the Rasmussen poll last night. That’s almost undoubtedly statistical noise, but it certainly doesn’t point to some awful crash after the townhall, as some of the Kossacks seem to believe we’d see.
And the TPMers as well.
Ohmygodwe’regonnalose! Pat Buchanan said McCain won. The evangelicals are not screaming loudly enough for him, so we’re gonna lose!
I mean, are people freakin’ LISTENING to themselves?
Not all evangelicals even like Warren. Some of them don’t think he’s Christ-centered enough or wingnut enough. I’m sure a lot of it is jealousy, but whatever.
This is not his base. It’s supposed to be Exxon John’s. If Obama can take a slice, that’s a good thing.
Yep.
I didn’t watch it either. Spent the evening bidding adieu to some friends relocating across the continent.
Did some browsing and found this:
Mark Halperin gives both candidates an A- in his overall report cards.
Oh, and a real surprise — McCain told stories about being a POW.
Hey, even I was moved, and I can’t stand the guy. I fought back a lump in my throat.
After you’ve heard those same stories ten times, they stop seeming heartfelt. Instead, it seems like he’s exploiting his POW years in a way that just seems unseemly.
Giuliani was all about 9/11. McCain is all about the Hanoi Hilton.
I think he used up a lifetime of integrity at the Hanoi Hilton. Not everyone comes out of near-death or extreme survival scenarios a better person.
And how did you do at miniature golf? I love that…
Hit an even 60 and won by one stroke.
You Olympian, you!
Turn on the Olympics – here’s the winner of the women’s marathon, coming into the arena for her final lap…
That was a tearful moment – the end of the marathon usually is – what an incredible effort!
McCain may have done himself good with conservative Evangelicals, by telling POW stories and presenting the neocon/religious right positions down the line. Picked out a Jewish judge to dis on the Supremes, too.
But Obama did what he had to do. By relating well with Warren and answering thoughtfully he showed everyone that he is not scary, and even if McCain played well with the audience, the long-term effect of Obama showing respect to their pastor and getting it back–clearly having rapport–could be significant.
Obama is doing better than McCain with every religious group except Evangelicals, and if he gets even a third of them, or even better 40%, he’ll be fine. From what I can tell, in terms of their political committments–more towards social justice and environment– even Evangelicals are moving more in Obama’s direction than in McBush’s, although there’s no telling how soon this will make a difference in how they vote.
that’s very easy to do when the audience is expecting simple answers to complex questions.
McCain is given multiple choice. “do you contain or defeat evil?” without demanding a how do you define evil?
McCain’s gave the response the audience expected. You defeat evil, ….wrapped in …’send in the army’
this might be churlish but Obama’s thoughtfulness was way above the heads of the majority.
And there’s nervousness among party elders that Obama is coasting- too laid back: Democrats call on Obama to specify his plans
We’re seeing a repeat of 2000 and 2004. The helping hand of BIG OIL – manipulating down the price of oil…already shouted as going to under $90/bbl before year end. McCain is their man.
Forum, schmorum. It was hot again in Seattle so we splurged and went to see a production of Annie Get Your Gun put on by a summer theater camp for high-school kids — inside an air conditioned theater, of course. They did a very good job, especially the girl who was playing Annie Oakley. Cute redhead who really belted out the high notes on “Anything You Can Do, I Can Do Better.”
For all the ladies out there who still think John McCain is some sort of Pro-Choice moderate, he finally stated his position clearly – on the record. Spread this one around:
And visit Jed’s place to digg it.
Absolutely no idea how Obama vs McCain went, but Michael Phelps is a legend!
This event shows that the rise of the so-called evangelical ‘moderates,’ concerned about social justice issues, is pure BS. What lines/questions got the biggest response? Abortion, judges, gay marriage, even McCain’s war talk. Warren couldn’t bring himself to utter the word ‘torture,’ as if Jesus wouldn’t have an opinion on it. If Warren’s audience is representative of evangical moderates, forget ’em.
I prefer out-and-out assholes like Dobson to slimy peddlers like Warren. If evangelicals want to join the mainstream let ’em knock on the door. Obama should have had nothing to do with this wingnut festival of bullshit piety.