I can’t wait until the agony is over.
About The Author
BooMan
Martin Longman a contributing editor at the Washington Monthly. He is also the founder of Booman Tribune and Progress Pond. He has a degree in philosophy from Western Michigan University.
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It’s nucular agony.
lol!
Does anyone, besides the Hillary supporter in Philly, think that she’s winning? Really?
John McCain knows how to win a war? Vietnam? We won that one? And the blenders? What’s that?
All she had to do to win was not fall flat on her face. She didn’t.
I actually blogged on this over at Dead Horse.
Wait, she just went through a dozen cliches in ten seconds…
I think she’s winning. Sorry, but it’s true.
I thought so too until the last 3 minutes.
others disagree. Biden had authority. She sputes pablum, and chattered…when she did not grasp the substance fo the question.
Not enough to be VP. And a Cheney clone – she does not understand the VP role.
hey!!!!!
i am not the hillary supporter in philly!!!!!
i have obama stickers on my car right under my dean stickers and in my neighborhood i could get run over by a monster truck for that.
palin is speaking to dumbass america….she is folksy…..i love biden but she came off way better than expected…..now its apparent msnbc hates her….fox loves her….and all she had to do tonite was not come off as an idiot.
she won
Sorry, mistook you for someone I read awhile back.
oh it was probably me because i dared to defend clinton in the primary
she came off way better than expected…..now its apparent msnbc hates her….fox loves hershe came off way better than expected…..now its apparent msnbc hates her….fox loves her
Is that such a surprise? Fox will always love the folksy Republican. Buchanan claimed that she won but Maddow slapped him down.
The CNN meter group thought Biden won.
This answer of Biden’s about what would happen if Obama died is really good.
I know. But I’m proud of Joe. I think he’s doing a great job so far.
golly! whadda ya expect! a Team of Mavericks!!!
I think she just blew this answer. This might be the news clip of the night.
i really don’t understand conservative demonization of government when they are vying to lead said government.
deregulation…no accountability..sounds like an anarchist to me.
Not some much anarchy, but jailhouse rules: the more powerful group dominates and further distorts the market to their will, ultimately leading to the bubble/crash cycles the de-regulator types blame regulations for.
Regulation is necessary precisely TO MAINTAIN THE FREEDOM OF MARKETS FROM THE TYRANNY AND MANIPULATIONS OF THE POWERFUL. Market Liberalism ROOLZ!
Obviously, bad regulations can be just as harmful as letting kleptocratic elites run wild.
Counterintuitive stuff blows peoples minds, but in this case, it’s an essential truth – one that can be abused and taken too far, but a truth.
Oy…
“Govt, get outta our way.” Geeze…
A team of Mavericks. I thought they played in Dallas.
Get rid of the greed and corruption in Washington? How’s that?
This HAS to be the answer of the night. That’s what this is all about. If the networks play Biden’s answer and then hers – she loses.
This is horrible.
Diane – what is the CNN meter showing?
shoutouts! extra credit!
teh stupid burns….
Boy, does it ever burn.
Shout outs? Doggone it? Her reward is in heaven?
My God…
Did Gwen ASK about education? Did I miss it?
OMG, a shoutout to some elementary school…. WTF is wrong with people!
We know what a Vice President does. He/she has secret energy meetings.
Agrees with Cheney.
lurved Biden’s answer
The flexibility of the Constitution. Not playing a strict constructionist.
That shining city on the hill. Sitting on the curb, car reposessed.
So you can see San Francisco from there? 🙂
God, that choking up moment was great!
Almost a tear from Biden.
Almost a tear from me.
Maverick..Woods hit Woods hit, This is iceman, Maverick won’t engage..
Oh I thought I was watching top gun..
That god he’s attacking the maverick theme.
That was by far his best comment of the night. Loved it.
exactly.
Ben Smith:
more:
Biden is chewing her to shreds. He’s come alive
cnn meter goes flat when she talks, Biden they go up.
Were you watching the meter when she asked the what happens if the president dies question? What happened?
no, baseball is on too
Damn I wish I had cable.
Are the cubs winning?
Ouch 5-0 Dodgers. Go Phillies with another win today!
no LA
Biden is closing strong
Fight for America, fight for the middle class by taxing healthcare.
“So that they shall do the same.” It’s like it’s from a new book in the Bible.
FUCK ALL!!!!!
All that’s missing is a one-arm salute. Thank God this is over.
fight we’ll fight, we’ll fight
War, war
Whew. She was awful. Right now on FOX I’m sure they’re saying she was great. Unfortunately, I’m judging it on what she said and when she didn’t answer questions. I imagine that the reactionaries will see her nervousness and canned answers as poise.
But she didn’t poo in her pants. “She did a good job of sticking with her game plan,” some talking head said.
Not to tout my horn too loudly – James Fallows sums up my views throughout the debate: threads
ugh. I am so glad this is over.
I REALLY hate her voice.
I apologize to BooMan for complaining when he complained about Hillary’s voice.
I didn’t know you started this diary, you should post in old one when you do that.
I watched on cnn and the last half she was pretty much flatlining and Joe was going up high, women were more for him than men tho, nearly the whole time.
That’s good.
I wanted to see it during the “president dies” question.
Her closing statement was cloying and trite – really nauseating. I thought his was much better.
I thought so too. On the other hand that’s what I always thought about Ronald Reagan’s statements and most of America loved him.
Of course, I find HER cloying and trite – among other things, and apparently some people find that quite attractive and sexy.
What did you think of her winking at the camera?
Ridiculously, characteristically unserious.
Fortunately, I only saw the last few minutes on TV, so didn’t have a chance to get annoyed enough by it to throw anything at my nice new expensive TV.
Chuck Todd. The impact of this debate is minimal and won’t last beyond a couple of days. Because nothing much happened.
.
from both sides in debate of platitudes.
Facts are:
On Iraq:
I haven’t heard any statements that clarify the failed foreign and military policy of the last 8 years. Just more of the same including our support for Israel’s illegal occupation of Palestinian land. Anyone say the US of A is just plain bankrupt; not only money wise, but especially politically and morally in the world. Very disappointing, it’s 04.30 am and I’m turning in.
"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."Oh I hear that. The low point of the night was the fawning over Israel. Not to mention tripping out over Iran’s nuclear program. There is always a way to make to make things worse financially and morally.
“the insurgents killing US soldiers came from Saudi Arabia, not Iran“
Pardon me, but the resistance fighters (not insurgents – there are no insurgents in Iraq) killing US soldiers came from Iraq, not from Saudi Arabia. The Iraqi resistance fighters were and are fighting for their freedom from foreign occupation.
.
An NBC News analysis of hundreds of foreign fighters who died in Iraq over the last two years [2003-2005] reveals that a majority came from the same country as most of the 9/11 hijackers — Saudi Arabia.
Saudis’ Role in Iraq Frustrates U.S. Officials
"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."Ah yes, those notorious “foreign fighters” (later known as “Zarqawi’s guys”, and even later known as “Al Qa`eda”! By the U.S. military’s own estimates those amounted to no more than 1-2,000 individuals, and it is difficult to determine from the reports/propaganda whether those “foreign fighters” were killing more American troops or Iraqis.
The overwhelming majority of attacks on U.S. occupation forces are and have always been conducted by Iraqi resistance fighters, not “foreign fighters” or “Zarqawi” or “Al Qa`eda”.
why American troops in Iraq never seem to get counted as “foreign fighters” ? ? ?
A few people count them that way. The great British journalist, Robert Fisk, for example, has frequently pointed out that the largest contingent of foreign fighters comes from the US.
What’s with the winking?
MSNBC has an online poll up.
Who won?
Biden 74.5%
Palin 24.5%
Tie 1.1%
188 voting
MSNBC score now
Biden 76.3%
Palin 20.7%
Tie 3.1%
5,795 votes
This is kinda fun.
Right — she did very well — but so what? Unfortunately for her and McCain, American people in no mood for bullshit right now.
Shes very good with the glittering generalities. I could almost hear the inspirational choir coming up in the background. I liked when Biden took her carefully repeated mantra of maverick… maverick… maverick… and hit it right out of the field.
good god, the winking, the g-dropping, the kindergarten teacher voice….
i wanna see what the polls say. My guess? She comes off as likeable but not qualified. There’s a difference between qualified and programmable. That being said, I gave up awhile ago on pretending that the way I see things will be widespread across the electorate. So we’ll see what the polls say
likeable but not qualified is how obama got the nomination away from clinton…or should i say more likeable and less qualified.
and how bush beat gore and kerry (cheating aside)
so there is something to be said for that frame
I thought that Palin won the first part of the debate. Joe seemed kind of rattled, and had an edge of anger when he answered, while she was smiling.
But in the 2nd half, he came back. The best exchange was when he said “John McCain is no maverick on the issues that really matter.” After that, she got kind of subdued. I felt that he had convicingly punctured her B.S.
So, in the end, Palin didn’t commit the major gaffe that would end the campaign today. But the country is ready for change–Obama/Biden have the winning arguments on the economy, the war. In these debates, draws favor the democrats. And this is a slight win for us.
So we win.
The debate started to shift in his favor with the Iraq question. Then they asked the “what if Obama dies” and he didn’t make it all about himself but gave a solid answer and her answer sucked – and that really seemed to throw her off. It was in the follow up that she started babbling off topic about education. Then he devastated her on the Cheney question. And brought it home with the Maverick answer.
So I think in the end any good impression she made early dimmed in the later part of the debate.
She really started to fade. She was repeating herself and wishing it was over. I think Biden, after reflecting on the tragedy in his life, became more motivated. He was different after he choked up he was less cautious.
I didn’t get that at all. The women in the house here were alternately embarrassed for and angry at her. I actually thought when she avoided all pretenses at truth and went after Biden about two-thirds of the way into the debate that she scored some barfighting points.
I suspect that a lot of people who answer questions about who won or didn’t win any debate never sit through them.
Am not embarrassed FOR her, I am embarrassed BY her. Angry at her? That’s not exactly the emotion I feel. It’s more like revulsion than anger. I find her utterly appalling.
I thought Biden stomped her. She skipped questions and rambled off into stump speeches, the Cheney Fourthbranch question was crazy.
She’s. Not. Qualified. Not even remotely.
There you go again looking into the past, Zandar! What about change, you ol’ dinosaur? You betcha!
Doggone it, we’re Mavericks.
If I ever get an original idea well I bring it to ya!
CBS insta Poll – who won? 46 Biden 21 Palin 33 tie.
link?
It was on teevee. Maybe they’ll put it up on the website.
okay, thanks.
Just mentioned on Olbermann. Try fivethirtyeight.com
Link.
Washington Post, Chris Cillizza: “The Fix”: Biden is on point: In each of the first three questions he banged on McCain. Keep your eye on the fruit… LINK
First Read (Domenico Montanaro): Biden is hitting his stride on foreign policy. His nuance and directness on this subject is what made him so good in those Democratic primary debates. LINK
TIME: [Donna] Shalala on Biden’s health care answer: “Nailed it.” Women in this room erupted in cheers. Who knew there were so many Democratic CEOs? LINK
CNN (Candy Crowley): “How long have I been at this? Five Weeks?” I’m not sure that’s the greatest line for Palin to be using. LINK
ABC News (Rick Klein): Palin is falling into meaningless platitudes: “Change is coming.” “We’re going to learn from the mistakes of this and other administrations.” LINK
Washington Post (Chris Cillizza): It’s a hard argument for Palin to make: we need change, we need new faces, we need John McCain? LINK
TIME: John McCain “knows how to win a war.” Has anyone told her he was in Vietnam? LINK
TIME: Sarah Palin boldly vows to not answer the moderator’s questions. LINK
Politico (Jonathan Martin): The Palin response to Biden’s Bush-bashing: Too much looking backwards. She acknowledges that there have been “huge blunders throughout this administration as there have in every administration.” LINK
Politico (Jonathan Martin): Now we know why Palin is trying to stick to her message and avoid the questions and conversation at hand. That climate change answer was rushed and uncertain, more like the Palin we saw with Katie Couric than the Palin of the first 30 minutes tonight. LINK
TNR (Michael Crowley): A pre-emptive strike from someone who clearly plans to spend the night dodging: “I may not answer the questions the way that either you or the moderator want to hear…” LINK
Washington Post Fact Check: Palin “Flatly False” on Biden Attack. Sarah Palin just asserted that Sen. Joseph Biden backed John McCain’s military policies until this presidential race. That is flatly false. Biden was an outspoken opponent of President Bush’s troop increases in Iraq as soon as Bush announced them after the 2006 elections. As Foreign Relations Committee Chairman, he led the most heated hearings before the troops were actually deployed. LINK
New York Times: Gov. Sarah Palin boasted that Mr. McCain “sounded that warning bell” about Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, echoing some of Mr. McCain’s recent comments in which he portrayed himself as being on the vanguard in warning about the impending financial crisis.
But the legislation was introduced more than 16 months earlier and the debate over the issue had been going on for some time. He also only added his name after an oversight agency issued a lengthy report condemning practices at Fannie Mae. LINK
Washington Post Fact Checker (Michael Dobbs): Sarah Palin repeated John McCain’s claim that Barack Obama voted to increase taxes for every American earning more than $42,000 a year. This is a considerable stretch. LINK
USA Today Fact Check on Palin Claim that Obama Voted 94 Times to Increase Taxes: The facts: Non-partisan Factcheck.org called that count, which has been cited before by Republicans, “inflated and misleading.” Examining the 94 votes at issue, Factcheck.org found that 23 were for measures that would have produced no tax increase at all; they were against proposed tax cuts. The 94 tally includes two, three and even four votes on the same measure. LINK
New York Times Fact Checker: Ms. Palin castigated Mr. Obama’s health care plan as one that would be mandate a “universal government-run” system in which health care is “taken over” by the federal government. This is inaccurate on several levels. LINK
USA Today Fact Check on Palin Health Care Attack: The claim: Palin said Barack Obama wants a “universal, government-run program” and “health care being taken over by the feds.” The facts: Obama’s health-care plan does not call for a government takeover. In fact, it isn’t even universal. It would only cover all children. Obama’s plan would give Americans the opportunity to have government health insurance, but they also could pick a private plan. LINK
Washington Post Fact Checker: Palin Attack on Obama Iraq Record. Sarah Palin oversimplified Obama’s vote to stop funding U.S. troops in Iraq. Obama was one of 14 senators who voted against the bill on the grounds that it did not set a timeline for the withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq. Obama made clear that he was in favor of funding the troops, but could not agree to an indefinite extension of the war. The previous month, most Senate Republicans voted against a Democratic bill (supported by Obama) that linked funding of the troops to the establishment of a timeline for withdrawal. McCain missed that vote. LINK
Washington Post Fact Checker (Jonathan Weisman): Gov. Sarah Palin was erroneous when she claimed U.S. troop levels in Iraq are now at “pre-surge” levels. LINK
Washington Post Fact Checker (Jonathan Weisman): Palin repeated a standard line offered by the McCain campaign–that Obama has not admitted the “surge” of additional troops in Iraq worked. But in a September interview with Bill O’Reilly of Fox News, Obama said “the surge has succeeded in ways that nobody anticipated. . . I’ve already said it’s succeeded beyond our wildest dreams.” Obama has not, however, retracted his opposition to the surge, and he has said political reconciliation still needs to take place in Iraq. LINK
And her “I’m not going to answer your questions in the way that you or the moderator want to hear” line? Her white was showing.
What a nasty, nasty, piece of work.
Ah, but she was feisty!
When she feels on safe ground, you can almost see the fundamentalist light go on in Palin’s eyes. I felt, then, she showed her real self, her dangerous self, you know the one you bring to the burning of a witch or lynching of a dissenter. Her folksy, cartoonish manner is just a cover for deep and angry feelings. I think she is in the Cheney mode and will enjoy expanding the role of Veep, if god help us, she ever gets elected.
These are dangerous times, indeed. When the Republicans go with “the Mavericks”, you know that truth itself is severely wounded. God help America for the falsehood team has no shame and might take over the realms of power. Shudder!
She’s giving a live rally now at Wash U. Not sure exactly where. It’s on local teevee.
Crowd is very enthusiastic. Lots of older white people in the crowd. In fact it looks totally white. Odd for St. Louis. They are chanting either We love Sarah or We want Sarah.
“This makes that whoooole debate worth it.”
“St. Louis I felt like I was speaking for you!” heh. St. Louis is 80% democratic.
“They told me Sen. Biden was a very skilled debater and now I know what they meant. He was tough but [crowd interrupts with chanting] now I know what he meant. He did his best to convince us that 2 of the most liberal senators in the senate belong in the white house. But as I explained John McCain is the only candidate who will solve our economic problems and not exploit them.”
ugh.
POW!!
You know – she sounds like Eva Peron. There’s only one man who is willing to fight for you.
I think they may have picked up part of this speech from Evita.
Yes, John McCain WAS a POW.
And we won the war.
Sorry this is at St. Louis University. Well. There goes my alum contribution.
I don’t think that either one was especially good on gay rights. I know I live in the SF Bay Area but, really, does this still move voters to vote against her interests?
vote against their interests?