Israel got frustrated with its inability to stop rocket attacks coming from the Gaza Strip so they killed 150 195 Gazans this morning in airstrikes. They bombed the Coast Guard, the prisons, police stations…
Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak told reporters in Tel Aviv that a state of emergency had been declared in Israel’s south in anticipation of more rocket attacks. The rocket firings from Gaza into Israel resumed last week after a cease-fire expired.
Barak said the Israeli attacks, dubbed “Operation Solid Lead,” may continue for some time. For weeks, he said, “Hamas and its proxies launched Qassam and Grad rockets, and mortars, on the towns of the south. We did not intend to let this reality continue.” He said the military had been preparing for the operation for several months, “to strike Hamas severely so as to change the situation from its base.” He added, “The operation will be deeper and expanded as much as needed. I do not want to delude anyone, it won’t be short and it won’t be easy, but we have to be determined.”
I doubt that Israel can stop the rocket attacks without further worsening their reputation in the world, which is now about as low as it has ever been. Israel outsmarted itself with its settler policy and they’re never going to have security again, ever, until they concede that the settlers are the gravest danger to their Nation’s security and do something about it.
You’d think a country that was defending itself from rocket attacks would get some leeway. You’d be wrong.
The European Union called for an end to the attacks on Gaza.
When the European Union issues a call to end your campaign on its very first day, you know world opinion no longer supports your right to self-defense. And when you get to that point, you are in real danger. Israel must realize, soon, that their position is weak.
Another failure of the Bush regime, imo. Eight years of enabling bad behavior by Israel and ignoring the Palestinians and this is what you end up with.
It’s also a major failure of Israeli policy. It’s bad when failure on this level isn’t punished at the ballot box because people have no idea what else to do.
Israeli leaders have always known exactly what they need to do in order to live in peace with their neighbors. The think is, they do not want peace and acceptance badly enough to do it. Ehud Olmert spelled out pretty clearly what Israel needs to do, and then proceeded to march along the exact same path he and other Israeli leaders have always followed.
Do you really think – do Israelis really think – that they can lock 1.5 million human beings in a huge open air prison, deny them access to food, water, fuel, power, medicine, freedom of movement, even a modicum of self-determination, and have those 1.5 million people quietly submit?
PS Interesting that you make it sound as if it is Israelis who are suffering. I am in contact with a number of Israelis in different parts of the country, and I promise you they are living their lives and not suffering at all.
It’s the failure of human beings to extend equal and mutual humanity and dignity to all people, but instead use tribalism, religion, class and political persuasion to dehumanize our very own brothers and sisters.
The IP thing (shameful, cruel and entirely predictable) is but a single dot in a connect-the-dots mosaic which illustrates the awe-inspiring scope of man’s inhumanity to man and the ubiquitious crimes against humanity gleefully perpetrated, which condemns humanity to one of Dante’s circles of hell.
Deservedly so.
Israel is a symptom of man’s fatal flaw, dating back to Cain and Abel: shoot first, ask questions later.
g.
Off-topic, but about culture clash: Our own RealHistoryLisa writes a fine review of a fine movie here: http://consortiumnews.com/2008/122408a.html
we’ll see what that entitled meeting of representatives of all American Jewish organizations held two plus weeks ago with Barack Obama was all about.
Israel lives to fight. BUT the time will be soon when Israel will meet its comeuppance. These massive retaliation on Gaza sets up the next much wished for conflagration:
Here’s where our focus need to be
Several major signals that a war with India and Pakistan over the Mumbai attacks is closer. And imho, Israel will receive some backlash. What does Israel have to do with Pak-India conflict? It was reported Israel was training Indian commandos to do strikes on Pakistan..not left unnoticed in Islamabad. When you have nothing to lose, nukes are handy:
Have you seen the four horsemen coming this way?
Since India has advised nationals not to travel to Pakistan, if you’re in India you may want to consider leaving for anywhwere else too. If push does come to shove, major capitals and commercial centers aren’t safe…so don’t be complacent! Oil will be disrupted.
And there we are. On the edge to usher in 2009.
We’ll need Blessings.
How interesting that Israel trained the Indian combatants.
I’m reminded of comments from Bibi about destroying the Palestinians while the US was occupied in another war.
Seems like they are creating all of the chaos.
I predict — the first second the Palestian issue is resolved by Israel recognizing the rights of Palestians to their lands, peace will descend. Israel wants recognition;, well it needs to give recognition and quickly. Otherwise world fatigue against Jews will grow.
We should all hang our heads in same. Those F16s, unleashed against walled-in people deprived of the basic necessities of life, was our helping hand in this bloody matter.
The Wall of Shame did not stop the rockets. Deprived peoples will always fight to the last drop of blood.
We’re on the cusp of a transformative period in history and Israel has best come on board or be left behind. Hear O Yisrael…you can’t spill blood and then claim innocence.
Will grow?
Ha!
I was thinking of the demand that they have the right to exist.
They don’t have that right if it means that others must perish.
If what Israel wanted were really recognition, they would have accepted the Arab League offer of full recognition and normal diplomatic and economic relations years ago instead of wagging their middle finger every time the offer is renewed.
Yeah Cee,
Through Tel Aviv
India’s Reckless Road to Washington — Why Does Israel Come Here?
And in that quote is the nugget – the certainty of a backlash against Israel should hostilities erupt between India and Pakistan. The quest to sell arms, influence and expertise will be seen as Israel’s error in judgement and,
the making of Armageddon. How close to 2012 are we?.
I started to feel faint as I was reading this.
Wasn’t this the housing of an anti-Zionist group?
I recall that one of the family members of a victim didn’t want an Israeli state funeral.
Things are worse than I thought. I don’t know that we’ll get to 2012.
You can say that Israel’s position is weak, but as long as the USA isn’t condemning their action, or at least remains silent regarding it, they’re fine with a miffed Europe.
Israel feels that as long as they have the US’s money and arms, the rest of the world can go Cheney itself.
I think you have the right of it, Booman—Israel tried to have their cake and eat it too, with the settlers. You can’t play the victim with those hoodlums running about harassing or killing the Palestinians, then taking their property. Good for the Palestinians for getting smart and putting handi-cams into the hands of thousands…now the Israelis can’t say it didn’t happen, and try to white-wash it any more…..
For the record, the “settler hoodlums” are not the primary ones killing and harassing the Palestinians and taking their property. That distinction goes hands down to the Israeli government and its military. The “settler hoodlums”, while they present a real danger to Palestinians, are really only a small minority of the population of the colonies in the occupied territories, though what they do is helpful to the Israeli government in furthering its program of strangulation of the Palestinians and confiscation of more and more of their land.
Yes, good for the Palestinians for the “shooting back” program in which they record abuses with video cameras. It is a creative, and non-violent approach that has forced open the eyes of at least a few Israelis who have had their eyes wide shut all this time, and it has even opened up the minds of a few of them.
Nevertheless, the real problem is not with those racist Israeli hoodlums, who are a relatively recent phenomenon, really, but with the Israeli government. Its long-term goal of slow ethnic cleansing by systematically making life for Palestinians increasingly untenable and miserable has been well documented by Israelis and others for decades, as has its system of well-planned land confiscation and colonization, and creation of facts on the ground that are intended to simultaneously make normal life impossible or Palestinians and obviate the creation of a viable Palestinian state.
Israeli academic and activist Jeff Halper (Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions – among other things they send teams of Israelis and Palestinians to rebuild Palestinian homes demolished by the Israeli military) has been demonstrating very clearly for many years how the pattern of land confiscation and building is well planned to squeeze Palestinians into smaller and smaller living spaces, and isolate them from one another, from their work, and from their agricultural fields, and to make movement from one place to another outrageously difficult and time consuming.
Others have shown specifically that check points are intended not so much to protect Israelis, but primarily to stifle freedom of movement, and to make traveling even a short distance as time consuming, inconvenient, and humiliating as possible for Palestinians. Ditto the so-called “separation fence”, which is not being built on even an approximation of the boundary between Israel proper and the Occupied Palestinian Territories, but, cuts snake-like deeply into Palestinian land in a way that in some cases cuts towns and neighborhoods into two parts, and – surprise, surprise – necessitates the confiscation of large amounts of Palestinian land (illegally, by the way), most of which ends up on the Israeli side of the wall.
So, when we condemn the racist “settler hoodlums” and their crimes against Palestinians, as we certainly must, let us not unduly credit them with the crimes of the Israeli government.
You can say that Israel’s position is weak, but as long as the USA isn’t condemning their action, or at least remains silent regarding it, they’re fine with a miffed Europe.
Israel feels that as long as they have the US’s money and arms, the rest of the world can go Cheney itself.
I think you have the right of it, Booman—Israel tried to have their cake and eat it too, with the settlers. You can’t play the victim with those hoodlums running about harassing or killing the Palestinians, then taking their property. Good for the Palestinians for getting smart and putting handi-cams into the hands of thousands…now the Israelis can’t say it didn’t happen, and try to white-wash it any more…..
“You can’t play the victim with those hoodlums running about harassing or killing the Palestinians, then taking their property.“
The “settler hoodlums”, who make up a very small minority of the Israeli colonizers, are hardly the primary harrassers and killers of Palestinians and are certainly not the main takers of their property. That distinction goes to the Israeli government and its military. The Israeli government’s policies and systematic methods of land confiscation, and of slowly squeezing the Palestinians out of their land by making life increasingly miserable and unsustainable have been very well documented over the decades. The settler hoodlums are, in fact, serving a helpful, if unsolicited, purpose in that program.
“Good for the Palestinians for getting smart and putting handi-cams into the hands of thousands…now the Israelis can’t say it didn’t happen, and try to white-wash it any more…..“
Indeed, and yet it continues unabated as Israelis and the rest of the world turn a blind eye.
“Israel got frustrated…a country that was defending itself from rocket attacks…right to self-defense…you are in real danger…“
And not a word, not a syllable, not a hint that there might be a possibility that Palestinians might just have a right, and a real need to defend themselves against the genocidal actions to which the Israelis have subjected them every minute of ever day for decade after decade.
Sigh.
.
Olmert was never elected PM of Israel but took over when Ariel Sharon fell ill. Ehud Barak has shown to be a failure and the new Kadima leader for the upcoming election FM Tzipi Livni knows she has to act tough to keep Netanyahu at bay: the extreme Right and Ultra-religious parties holding Israeli politics hostage for decades. The World gazes in stupidity by giving full support for the Israeli declaration of war on
PalestiniansHamas. The Arab leaders will meet and wash their hands in innocence and further discuss ways to raise the price of their black gold."But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."Oui, every one of Israel’s leaders from Ben Gurion to the present day has had the same primary goals – territory and dominance. Peace and acceptance, when they were even part of the picture, have always taken a back seat to those two primary goals.
The thing is, in order to achieve its primary goals – territory and dominance – Israel must be in a state of perpetual conflict. Therefore, peace and acceptance are antithetical to its goals.
And I am not sure why you bring the Arab leaders and their oil into this. Years ago the Arab leaders called Israel’s bluff by offering it everything it claims it wants, and Israel has responded only with a wave of the middle finger. So much for what Israel really wants.
Israel must realize, soon, that their position is weak.
With Big Daddy USA behind them, why should they worry?
Big Daddy USA done run out of Viagra recently, in case you haven’t noticed. Only clout Big Daddy got left is from his nuclear prosthetic device, and that’s a one-shot deal.
No afterplay.
Israel is fucked.
Watch.
Big Daddy can’t protect his bitch(es) much longer.
This pimp is about to take a forced retirement.
And the other pimps are salivating.
Bet on it.
Watch.
AG
I don’t agree, Arthur. I think politicians on both sides of the aisle, from Obama on down, will fall all over themselves to defend and assist Israel regardless of the consequences.
Obama has already shown his puppy-dog-like eagerness to bow to Israel, and his utter disregard for the Palestinians.
All of his bowing and scraping helped him to get elected. If the coffers are empty and the guns are occupied elsewhere, all he has left in his arsenal is bowing and scraping.
Talk is cheap.
Action is expensive.
When a country is nearly broke…which one do you think is most likely to happen?
AG
What the hell are you talking about? Who said anything about coffers or guns? Neither coffers nor guns would be required for the United States government to insist that Israel comply with international law, and with its own agreements under international law. Neither coffers nor guns would be required for the United States to withdraw aid and military sales to Israel as long as it violates United States law by using its military against civilians, and to enforce its occupation of land outside its territory. Neither coffers nor guns would be required for the United States to stop vetoing every single UNSC resolution that is not sufficiently supportive of Israel’s crimes. Neither coffers nor guns would be required for the United States to tell Israel to accept the Arab League’s generous offer or kiss its annual billions goodbye.
And in reference to your previous comment, I know this is difficult to swallow, but everything Israel does is not about the United States.
I disagree with everything that you have said above.
It is ALL about coffers and guns. International law itself is about coffers and guns. Had Hitler won WW II, for example, it would be his coffers and guns that established what is and is not illegal in international law and Israel would never even have come into existence. It is American “coffers and guns” that have supported Israel for about 50 years, and anyone who says anything to the contrary simply has not looked at who made the planes and weaponry that was…once again…used yesterday to kill Palestinians. The Palestinians? They are supported by rival coffers and guns. And the once relatively poor rival gangs grow stronger while the U.S. grows weaker.
Plus…everything that Israel does is indeed about the United States.
Bet on it.
5 or 6 million Jews against what? 300 million Muslims? More?
Please.
A country w/a population the size of a city like Cincinnati and environs against a group of people that numbers more than the entire population of the U.S. and totally surrounds them?
C’mon…
It’s ALL about who’s helping them, Hurriah.
Bet on it.
Those F15s don’t grow on orange trees.
If those 6 million Israelis had actually been required to cough up the retail dough to buy their armaments alone? That’s be a lotta oranges per Israeli, Hurriah. Prohibitively expensive. But they serve U.S. interests, so they get U.S. weaponry.
Realpolitik.
Just as it has always been.
Later…
AG
Yeah, well, Arthur, we are going to have to agree to disagree on this as on so many things.
Bet on it.
PS Your notion that the Israel issue is or has ever been about Jews against Muslims is a really good indication of the depth of your knowledge and understanding.
And by the way, I don’t think you bothered to read much beyond the first line of the comment you are supposedly responding to.
It wouldn’t take a single bullet or a dime out of the coffers to tell Israel to shape up or kiss its annual billions from America goodbye. All it would take would be a modicum of courage – something that is in very short supply in Washington.
or race, Hurriah.
It’s about superpower competion…realpolitk… and the religion/race issues are just what the superpowers (including the Islamic bloc) use to sell the carnage to their citiizens.
You write:
You still seem to think that this is all about some kind of courage and morality.
It isn’t.
It’s just about power.
War is a racket, and the people who really run the game are racketeers.
Would you write that if you were speaking about two rival gangster groups in some nasty ghetto of the U.S.? Of course not. This is no different, except in scale. And you have been sold the “morality” bill of goods the same way the poor suckers who are getting blown up have been sold the religion, patriotism and race bills of goods.
Too bad.
But take heart.
At least you’re not alone.
AG
Really? Then why did you frame it in those terms? So many Jews against so many times more Muslims? “A country w/a population the size of a city like Cincinnati and environs against a group of people that numbers more than the entire population of the U.S. and totally surrounds them?” And of course that entire population, as we know, harbours and irrational hatred of everything western, and especially of Jews, would never permit a Jewish state in their midst if they had a choice, and and are just itching for an opportunity to drop whatever they are doing in order to run over there and wipe Israel off the face of the map. That is certainly the stereotype of the conflict that everyone buys into who has never really bothered to look into it in any depth.
And you talk as though if Israel lost the “help” of the United States, screaming hordes of bloodthirsty Muslims would immediately descend upon it and annihilate it, when the exact opposite is the case. Israel would finally be forced to abandon its fondest ambitions and accept the generous offer placed on the table by the Arab League. The best thing the U.S. could possibly do for Israel and for the region is to stop funding Israel’s nasty habit of murder, plunder, land theft, and destruction.
And for the record, I do not buy into your grand “superpower” conspiracy theory with the United States – surprise, surprise – dead center at every moment (and, of course, the Muslim hordes as the arch rival – very fashionable, this “clash of civilizations” bullshit). Yes, sure, Israel serves some purpose for the United States, but believe me, Israel does not exist first and foremost to serve the United States, and the United States is not at the center of every move Israel makes any more than Israel is at the center of every move the United States makes. The Israelis act in their own perceived interest.
And by the way, you really have no idea how I view this conflict, why I view it that way, and on what information from what sources I base my views, so please stop trying to inform me about what is in my own mind, ’cause you just don’t know.
or race.
They are power groups…or more specifically groups that have been powerfully hypnotized by their cultures.
The religions themselves?
The real root of them?
Nope. It’;;s not coming from them.
The “entire population” of the Islamic world harbouring an “irrational hatred of everything western, and especially of Jews?”
No.
Just enough of that population to make things extremely dangerous for Israel…a country that has been doing its own part to convince more and more Muslims to hate it.
Am I totally off here?
I felt this…quite unexpectedly…in Egypt months ago. I went there not expecting to see and feel the anger and hatred that I felt towards “everything western” among the people and the media culture and I quite plainly saw and felt it there. Plainly enough to believe it.
“The best thing the U.S. could possibly do for Israel and for the region is to stop funding Israel’s nasty habit of murder, plunder, land theft, and destruction?”
I agree.
But the right wing, corporate-dominated leadership of the U.S. PermaGov does not.
What’s in your mind?
You’re right. Other than what you have written, I do not know. I disagree only with what you have written.
Tell me more and perhaps I will understand better.
AG
Yes, you are totally off in a number of ways, including making this all about Muslims versus Israel, and in suggesting that Muslims are a danger to Israel. Opposition to Israel, including violent opposition, and even including “terrorist” opposition is entirely non-sectarian (check out George Habash, and the PFLP – hint: George Habash, a very notorious “Palestinian terrorist” was a Christian, as were and are many other “Palestinian terrorists”) and is based on a very reasonable and even rational reaction to Israel’s abuses of other human beings, not some kind of “powerful cultural hypnotism” to which Muslims are subject.
You’ve got it backward. “The Muslims” are not an extreme danger to Israel, but Israel is, as it has proven repeatedly, and is proving now, most certainly an extreme danger to its neighbors or anyone else that gets in the way of its goals.
I know this is difficult for most westerners to grasp due to the unrelenting propaganda they have been fed for the last 60 + years, but contrary to what you have been led to believe, Arabs and Muslims are not only not obsessed with Israel, on any given day any given Arab or Muslim does not even give Israel a passing thought. They are just too busy living their lives, and would very much prefer that their governments took care of their needs rather than worrying about Israel.
I would be extremely interested in knowing from you very specifically where you went and what you saw and heard in Egypt that convinced you that there was such deep anger and hatred there of “everything western” among the people and the “media culture”. Did the people there treat you badly because you are western, and if so how did you know it was because you are western? Did they say things to you that were hostile toward you as a westerner or toward westerners in general? What specific form did this bad treatment take? How did you perceive all this hatred of “everything western” in the “media culture” of Egypt? Do you understand Arabic so that it was clear what you were seeing and hearing in the media, and if so what specifically did you see and hear that suggested hatred of “everything western” on the part of Egypt’s “media culture”?
What I find odd is that most Americans and other westerners I know who have visited Egypt have gone there expecting to find people hostile toward the United States, and have found the exact opposite. that includes an all-American colleague of mine who returned from a visit to Egypt less than amonth ago, who went with considerable trepidation about the attitudes he would encounter there, and who was very taken with the Egyptian people, their friendliness toward him as an American, and particularly their skill at verbal repartee, which he is very good at himself. Therefore I find it odd that what you found there was anger and hatred toward everything western.
As for my thinking regarding Israel and the Palestinians, that will have to wait for another time. Let it be sufficient for now to say that after decades of in depth study, and countless hours of very up close and personal contact and discussion with people from every part of the spectrum, one-on-one, and in small and large groups, I do not consider myself a “sucker” as you so arrogantly put it. I also find it impossible to reduce it as you do into merely something involving a struggle among “superpowers” in which everything fits neatly into some nice slot or other. Unlike you I cannot remove from my thinking the fact that there are and always have been and always will be human beings closely and directly involved in this situation whose lives are deeply and vitally affected by it, and who likewise have the ability to affect the situation and its outcome by their actions or inactions. And in fact I see these humans as collectively having far more ability to ultimately influence the course and the outcome than your scheming “superpowers”. So, call me a sucker if it helps you feel superior, and if you think that being able to see and understand the depth, breadth, and nuance of a situation hampers a person’s ability to analyze it accurately.
And you immediately answered back:
You’re not listening. You’re the decider, and I am the fool.
Nice.
You want to know how and why I came to my thoughts about Egypt?
Read this.
We ARE “At War”. My observations after a week in the Middle East.
And in case you think that I am some kind of paranoid fool regarding the rest of the world outside of the U.S., read this as well:
My Excellent South African Adventure
I call ’em as I see ’em. I’ve been a lot of places and seen a lot of things, and I trust my gut-level judgements simply because they have proven to be correct so often.
So now I am going to tell you my gut-level observation regarding your act, Hurriah.
I have found that certain special interest groups absolutely and unchallengeably argument-proof themselves by using a tactic that I call “How would you know? You’re not one of us.”
I have heard this bullshit particularly from feminists, anti-Castro Cubans and pro-Israel Jews (pro-the racist, reactionary Israel, not the true Jewish homeland version), and now I am hearing it from you.
One of many examples:
I am not “most westerners” and I do not take ANY propaganda to heart. I just see what I see. And, as I said above I have seen a lot. Mostly from the vantage point of a voyager through all levels of society all over the world. One who “belongs” to almost no society save that of my fellow artists. I remain open to surprise, as the two posts above attest. I was ready to take precautions in South Africa if necessary…as I have been ready to take precautions in rough areas all over the world, from the South Bronx through Vietnam during the war and the deepest neighborhoods of South/Central/Caribbean America ..and I found a nation in very good psychic shape. (I am a musician and I play people’s music most of the time. People of color, more often than not. Being a white, Irish cop-looking male can be a…drawback in many neighborhoods. I learned to read the streets. Bet on it. All streets. Learned to read people.)
I was actually more or less expecting to find the Egypt of your middle class-fed propaganda…
And instead I found an angry nation chafing under the repressive hand of a military dictatorship and being rapidly pushed into the same radical Islamic hands that are busily at work throughout most of the Muslim world.
Were most of the “respectable” Egyptians I met unfailingly polite, friendly and intelligent? Without a doubt.
Does a country need automatic weapon-armed police standing behind steel barriers in middle-class areas if that country is not in deep, deep trouble?
Please.
19 million Cairenes. In my travels through the city and between Cairo and Alexandria, it looked to me as if less than 5% of the population was buying the whole Mubarak co-prosperity thing and the rest were on one level or another madder than hell at anything and everything “Western”. That’s only a couple of percentage points higher than what I saw in Southeast Asia just before the fall of Saigon.
Violent Islamic fundamentalism is spreading, Hurriah. It is actively happening in Pakistan, in Iraq, in Afghanistan, and all around the area of Israel. To deny this is simply blind. When every second TV station has a finger-shaking Muslim preacher with an angry face lecturing the people on how wrong everything is…and if you have an ounce of people sense you neither need a weatherman to tell you which way the wind blows nor a translator to tell you in which direction the bullshit flows…when masses of sullen people look up into your luxury bus with anger written all over their faces, when a peaceful mixed-race group of American musicians is advised to be continually accompanied by armed plainclothes security people whenever they venture out of the upper-class security zone in which they are housed…there it is.
In case you think that I am some sort of anti-Islamic fool spreading lies and misconceptions…which is a good strong undercurrent of everything that you have written here…on the contrary I have spent many years studying Sufi-influenced teachings which include Islam as a major influence, and I base my life on that study.
But…I do see what I see.
It’s not about “Islam”. It’s just about power.
Power, money and dominance.
I am now through arguing with you here. You are what you are, and peace be with you. It is quite obviously not within my capabilities to change your mind.
So it goes.
Best of luck in the future.
AG
You claim:
“I wrote…quite clearly:
“I’ve never thought that this was about religion or race.
“you immediately answered back:
“Yes, you are totally off in a number of ways…
“You’re not listening…
“
Excuse me? You are suggesting that by directly answering a direct question you asked five or six paragraphs into the body of your comment I was actually “immediately answering” the TITLE of your comment, which, by the way, I did not even read?
Specifically I was responding to this: “They [unclear who “they” are, but “they” appear to be in some way parties to the conflict] are power groups…or more specifically groups that have been powerfully hypnotized by their cultures.” and this: “Just enough of [the world Muslim] population to make things extremely dangerous for Israel…a country that has been doing its own part to convince more and more Muslims to hate it.” And what I was immediately answering was this: “Am I totally off here?”
And you also appear unaware that your statement about “just enough of the Muslim population” contradicts your title’s claim that you have never thought the conflict is about religion or race. And your rather demeaning comment about people being “powerfully hypnotized by their culture” (as if “those people” are unable to think or see beyond their “culture”), sounds like a sideways comment about people of a particular religion or race, though it is not clear who “they” are, or what “hypnotized by their culture” actually means.
I think it is you who are not listening – to yourself. Sure sounds like you think the conflict is about Jews and Muslims when you say things like this: “5 or 6 million Jews against what? 300 million Muslims? More?” And this: “A country w/a population the size of a city like Cincinnati and environs against a group of people that numbers more than the entire population of the U.S. and totally surrounds them [i.e. Jews against Muslims]?” And what about this: “and the religion/race issues are just what the superpowers (including the Islamic bloc) use to sell the carnage to their citiizens.” The “superpower Islamic bloc” – as if there were such an entity in the first place – sounds an awful lot like you think religion has something to do with it.
“You’re the decider, and I am the fool.“
That’s an interesting comment given how consistently you convey the message, both directly and indirectly that YOU are the decider and anyone who sees things differently from you is the fool. You know, like characterizing me and others who do not share your view of the struggle for Palestine as “suckers”? Once again, it appears you are not listening – to yourself.
And now I will try to let go of the meta-discussion and give some thought to the substance of your last comment.
OK, first of all, an admission that I cannot bring myself to read through the entirety of your lengthy screed that you linked to. I get it. You spent one week there being dragged around by a tour guide (an indignity to which I would not subject myself), are now an expert on Egypt, the thinking and character of its people, the direction in which they are headed, and you gathered all this in-depth knowledge and understanding in one mere week of casual tourism despite having a very limited and rather controlled itinerary, and despite not speaking any Arabic at all.
There is really no way in a comment section of adequately responding to your latest comment here or to the screed to linked to. Not sure it is even worth responding to your personal remarks. Maybe, if I have time and the stomach for it, I will post a diary in response.
In the meantime, you give the appearance of having very uni-dimensional, black and white views on many if not most things. You also give the impression that yours is the final word on just about everything, and that any view that might differ from yours is not even worth considering. If this is not the case, then perhaps you need to rethink how you present your ideas.
If they can only talk about “helping Israel”…if the consequences of such help are abandoning the already fixed-in transfer of the war on opposition to U.S. hegemony (Often mistakenly called “the war or terror”.) from Iraq to Afghanistan/Pakistan…then such talk will not be cheap, but it will be ineffective. (No high-level political talk is ever “cheap”, of course.)
The fix is in, robertdsc. The fix for the fix. Obama was (s)elected to “fix” the economy while simultaneously getting us out of Iraq w/out abandoning U.S. military positions vis à vis Russian and Chinese encroachment in the (still vital to the survival and fixing of said economy) oil-rich Middle East. If defending Israel is seen as a stumbling block to that policy, Israel will go.
Watch.
I hope that the leaders of Israel see the handwriting on the wall before it is too late.
So far?
They are either unable to read /unwilling to believe or they are posturing for a better deal.
We shall soon see.
Watch.
AG
I’m watching. They just bombed a mosque.
The Samson Option comes to mind.
Anyone who voted for Obama expecting him to get you out of Iraq was not listening to Obama himself. His plan was NEVER to get out of Iraq, and it is not now to get out of Iraq.
Iraq is a lost war.
It is draining the nation of strength.
We shall see.
His “plan” is certainly not to abandon the Middle East to the competition.
Which is…bet on it…Russsia and China.
Too expensive.
But Plan A didn’t work.
On to Plan B.
My bet?
Pakistan and Afghanistan as a block to Russian and Chinese interest.
That is of course if India and Pakistan do not start nuking each other first.
If that goes down? It’s everybody for themself, and the devil take the hindmost.
Watch.
AG
My point is a very simple one. Obama never intended to get the U.S. out of Iraq. He made that clear when he described his plan in detail early in the primary campaign. Therefore those who voted for him on the belief that he would get the U.S. out of Iraq were not paying attention.
No need to complicated it beyond that.
I don’t want to hear another word about Israel being the victim of anything but their own evil acts.
How many children can they starve?
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/847548.html
How many homes can they level?
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/feature-stories/israeli-army-destroys-palestinian-homes-2
0080214
How many trees can they uproot?
http://sabbah.biz/mt/archives/2007/06/22/jewish-colonizers-uproot-palestinian-trees-replant-them-in-
illegal-israeli-colony
How many can be denied medical care?
Israeli security agents have made entry for dozens of Palestinians from Gaza seeking medical treatment contingent on their agreement to act as informants, a human rights report said.
http://www.gulfnews.com/Region/Middle_East/10234313.htm
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1725422,00.html
They don’t want people to see the truth!
Israel Bans Jewish UN Official from Entering Palestine »
Israel on Sunday blocked entry to a U.S. scholar and outspoken critic of Israeli policies who in his new capacity of special United Nations investigator last week accused Israel of “war crimes.”
An Israeli foreign ministry spokesman on Monday confirmed the incident, saying Prof. Richard Falk had tried to enter the country without an invitation and had therefore been denied entry.
Lilia Zaharieva, the deputy head of the U.N.’s “occupied Palestinian territories country office,” said staff had gone to Ben Gurion Airport near Tel Aviv to meet Falk but learned that “he was not allowed to enter Israel.”
He had taken the next flight to Switzerland on Monday morning, she said.
The Palestinian permanent observer mission to the U.N. in Geneva – where the U.N.’s human rights bodies are located – said Falk had been “detained” on arrival and “was requested to stay the night at the airport waiting to be deported.” It said Falk had intended to visit Israel and the Palestinian territories for a week to investigate the human rights situation.
<snip>
Colonialism and apartheid’
Falk’s appointment to the U.N. post last March immediately drew criticism because of his provocative views on Israel. An article last year, for instance, compared Israeli treatment of Palestinians to Nazi Germany’s atrocities against Jews.
Someone who has accused Israel of “genocidal tendencies” could not possibly be considered impartial as required for the rapporteur’s post, Israel’s ambassador to the U.N. in Geneva said at the time.
Falk told CNSNews at the time that he had done his best over the years to be objective but that he had also “often felt that the Palestinian side of the story is told in a manner that is biased and misleading.”
I think the world pretty strongly supports Israel. They clearly have international law on their side, and are clearly and indisputably acting in self defense, after repeatedly making efforts to get their enemies to end their illegal attacks on civilians. You can see just how little support the Palestinians have in the world at this point by counting the nations who offer to go to their defense. Namely, zero.
Stop blaming the Israelis, folks. At this point you’re just embarrassing yourself. The Palestinians began this war and are the ones responsible for perpetuating it.
The Palestinians began this war by invading, occupying, and trying to annex Israeli land. Shame on them!
you sure have an obfuscated view of the facts. How convenient? The once oppressed is now the oppressor.
Compare the territorial map of Israel, vintage 1948 with today’s boundary. Follow the Wall of Shame.
And don’t give me that crap about the 7 day war. Israel has ignored ALL UN resolutions.
If the Palestinians did to the Jews what the once oppressed Jews under Hitler has dish out daily to the Palestinians I grant the entire lands – Israel and Palestine – would be under and international force.
But that will come. Invaded from the north.
idredit, mikep is delusional. Don’t force him to face reality, it is too disturbing for him.
Mike,
You should be embarrassed for being dishonest or in denial.
Israel broke the four-month-old ceasefire on November 4, when an Israeli unit entered the Gaza Strip and attacked an area in the central Strip, claiming that Palestinians were digging a tunnel and intended to “kidnap” an Israeli soldier. When Hamas responded to this ceasefire violation with rockets, Israel imposed a total blockade on the already besieged territory and closed all entry and exit points.
That was over four weeks ago. ..
http://amideastchangeofcourse.org/Kathleen%20and%20Bill%20Christison%20-%20Will%20You%20Continue%20t
o%20Ignore%20Gaza’s%20Suffering,%20Mr%20Obama.htm
And Hamas was asking for a ceasefire with conditions that Israel stop the siege. Guess they have their answer.
Mattes, you just don’t understand. Israel just got frustrated because Hamas wouldn’t quietly accept the slow genocide Israel is trying to bestow on the Palestinians in Gaza, so they decided to speed things up a bit for a while.
Israel would rather kill 1000 Palestinians that confront the settlers in the West Bank.
Mattes, none of this is about the Israeli government’s reluctance to confront the settlers on the West Bank, it is about several different things, most particularly Israel’s fundamental goals of territory and regional dominance, but it is not about reluctance to confront settlers.
like world dominance.
Their mossad fingers are everywhere.
From WRH.com
And no doubt Israel is one of those “steadfast friends” upon whom the United States has, through great generosity and sacrifice, bestowed its great principles.
Mattes,
A Jewish author called Madoff an Avenging Angel for taking out foundations and people like this.
Weisel should be thinking about his hypocrisy as he wonders why he lost all of his cash.
Don’t get me started on that old hypocritical grandstanding professional holocaust survivor, Eli Wiesel. A self-proclaimed “human rights advocate” who cannot even bring himself to utter the word Palestinian. He ought to be ashamed of himself.
Oh yes, and this is far from the bloodiest day of the “IP” conflict. The Israelis have had much better days than this one.
A non-U.S. perspective. About ten years ago I went to Syria and was told by an older man (about my age) how he experienced the establishment of Israel as an act of European colonialism. I’d never looked at it that way before. To his mind, the Jews were Europeans who had nothing to do with the Middle East. They invaded and took over the place. I felt pretty stupid that I hadn’t understood that before. And in fact the Israeli government functions largely as a western European parliamentary system, apart from details about marriage only by a cleric, if I’m not mistaken, and the religious veneer of the state. The Israelis who run the show seem basically still to be of European derivation. Israel wants land and will do anything to get it. The lack of Arab states’ support for the Palestinians will be to their eternal shame. Mubarak—one of the U.S. of A.’s favorite dictators—is a disgrace. Mr. O. doesn’t need to say anything. He is not yet president and resting under the palm trees. Anyone, we already know what he thinks. Ms. Rice told us. Why are the occupiers of the West Bank still referred to as settlers? Wouldn’t they more correctly be referred to as squatters?
Thanks, Quentin. And how did you like Syria? Ever been back?
It was not only to the mind of your Syrian interlocutor that the Zionists were Europeans who had nothing to do with the Middle East. It is a flat fact. Zionism was a European movement of, and for European Jews. The founders of the movement, and of the State of Israel were elite secular European Jews, many of whom were atheists. As for their connection with the Middle East, they had no ancestral connection, and since they were secular and not religious, they could not even claim a religious connection. And as you might know, the Middle East was by far not the first location they considered for their Jewish State. They ended up choosing Palestine largely because it would be a good selling point to get religious Jews to buy into the Zionist idea.
As for Jews who DID have a connection to the Middle East, including Palestinian Jews, by and large they need not apply, and later as immigrants to Israel they were viewed as barely above Arabs, and treated very badly. Israeli journalist Tom Segev, among others, has documented much of the early often very ugly racism against Middle Eastern and other non-European Jews in Zionism and in Israel.
“Israel wants land and will do anything to get it.“
That is the common thread that runs from the earliest days of Zionism through every Israeli government until today. That, and the lust for dominance over the region.
“The lack of Arab states’ support for the Palestinians will be to their eternal shame.“
This is not intended as a defense of the feckless and corrupt Arab “leadership”, but the Arab states actually have a very mixed record in this regard. Some have paid a very high price for their support of the Palestinians, and cannot realistically be expected to continue to pay that price. States and their leaders are not altruistic entities, and tend to act in their own perceived interests. The United States and Israel have made it very much in the interests of the Arab “leaders” not to directly support the Palestinians.
And yet, the Arab League seven years ago placed on the table an offer of everything Israel claims it wants in exchange for withdrawal to the 1967 boundaries, and from the Palestinians’ business, and it has kept that offer on the table despite the fact that Israel responds only with a wave of its middle finger in their direction. That offer is not without cost to those Arab leaders, and is certainly supportive of the Palestinians.
And recently some Arab states attempted – unsuccessfully – to break Israel’s genocidal blockade of Gaza. I suppose they could have used firepower when Israel refused entry to the humanitarian supplies, but at what a huge cost!
And in any case, I have never understood why any responsibility for the Palestinians’ situation is put at the feet of the Arabs. More often than not attempting to put the onus on the Arabs is a way of avoiding Israel’s responsibility for its crimes, though I know that is not what you are doing here.
As for Mubarak, I agree that he among numerous others, is a disgrace for reasons too many to list here.
Disinformation, secrecy, deception: How the Gaza offensive came about
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050426.html
This kind of thing is hardly out of character for Israel. The 2006 33 day assault on Lebanon had been planned long before and was only waiting for a pretext that would allow Israel to pretend it was reacting and not instigating. Israel has a history of this sort of thing.
All of the talk in the world is not going to change what is about to happen in and around Israel.
1-Obama is going to do…something.
In order of likelihood…
A-He is going to parse, doubletalk and use covert means in an effort to avoid all-out war there. The age-old “threats and promises, plomo o plato (lead or silver) ” shtik.
B-He is going to support Israel in a war. Probably trying some under the table double-dealing simultaneously.
C-He is going to tell Israel “YOYO. Y’On Y’Own. We’ve got our hands full in Afghanistan/Pakistan/Iraq/Iran. Sorry, bubbelehs. I didn’t make that deal and even if I did, we can’t pay off. Best of luck.”
2-Israel is also going to do something. In fact, it is already “doing ” something.
The leaders of Israel are quite obviously trying to dig a hole out of which Obama will not be able to climb once he is sworn in a President. They believe that this action is necessary for the continued survival of Israel. They may well be correct in this assessment, although considering the numerical odds stacked against them and the increasing weakness of the U.S. both militarily and economically it appears to me that they are just postponing the inevitable.
All of the argument about right and wrong that is, has been or will be applied to either side in this dispute is just about as effective and realistic as is Shakespeare’s idiot’s sound and fury.
Realpolitik is at work here, and realpolitik is not about right and wrong. It is simply about power.
To those who “support” Israel , all I have to say is (in the same words that I ascribed to Barack Obama above): “Sorry, bubbelehs, and best of luck.”
It appears to me that the ongoing support of American Jewry has only sealed Israel’s tragic fate. Without it? Maybe Israel would have had to further compromise with the Palestinians decades ago and it would now be well on the way to becoming a truly multi-ethnic society.
YOU know…like what is happening in the U.S. right now?
Or…maybe not.
Good luck either way.
I still think West Virginia would have been a better choice of homeland, but what do I know? My “people” lost most of Europe to the Romans and later the the Germanic tribes centuries ago.
Saaaay…maybe we can get the south of France back!!! It’s really NICE there. I’ll go talk to the UN, Obama and whoever’s really in charge in Great Britain right after the holidays are over and see what I can do.
Save your breath.
You’re going to need it right here at home as we try to dig out from under the shattered remains of our country after 48 years of more-or-less rightist rule following the initial 1963 coup.
What?
You think Lee Harvey Oswald did it all by his lonesome?
Please.
Later…
AG
I have just spoken to my friend Majdi, who is a physician in Gaza City. He is a kind and gentle man with a beautiful, sweet young wife, and a daughter about one year old. He is sharing with me his personal diary account, and share them with his permission. This is what I have received so far:
This day was a horrible one. The mobile services was out of reach due to excessive pressure on them and as a result of the 60 F16 fighters which were in the sky of Gaza.
I left the clinic where I work at 11:20 am to attend the defense of a Master dissertation of a fried of mine which was scheduled to be held at the Palestinian Red Crescent Society building in Gaza. While in the taxi on my way to Gaza, we at the taxi heard a huge explosion, then we saw 2 huge Mushroom-like dust getting up into the sky. The taxi driver decided to change his direction from Salah Eldin Street to the Sea shore way to reach our final distention in Gaza City.
I did not realized that the 2 huge bombings that I saw were in the small suburb where my apartment is located. I reached the Palestinian Red Crescent Society building, which neighbors one of the security buildings which was hit by Israeli Air Forces F16 fighters in Gaza City and the headquarter of the Ministry of Prisoners’ affairs, which was also destroyed. I crossed on my feet the ruins of a destroyed building as the taxi could not cross them.
Fisk pretty much nails it:
Robert Fisk’s World: How can anyone believe there is ‘progress’ in the Middle East? – Robert Fisk, Commentators – The Independent
Robert Fisk is generally dead on, except when it comes to Lebanon. There is he blinded by his own alliances and cannot see clearly at all. But on Palestine or Iraq, he usually does nail it.
has TWO diaries on this topic on the rec list.
One with over 2000 comments, which was at the top of the rec list, and another with over 500 comments, currently at the top of the rec list.
Amazing that they’re even visible, rather than hidden/deleted! Hopefully Shergald is having some time off over the winter break, I imagine this would be quite a curious thing to him.