Based on reporting by Haaretz the assault on the Gaza Strip has increased the range of Israeli territory under direct threat of rocket attack:
Home Front Command authorities have instructed Be’er Sheva residents to remain in sheltered areas as Palestinians have succeeded in striking in the deepest point eastward into Israel.
After holding emergency consultations with the Israel Defense Forces Home Front Command, authorities in Be’er Sheva decided on Wednesday there would be no school in the city. The city’s mayor, Rubik Danilovich, also ordered all classes at Ben-Gurion University shut down.
The army has also shut down school instruction on Wednesday in all towns lying within 30 kilometers of the Gaza Strip, though kindergartens in reinforced rooms will be in session.
It seems to me that Israel cannot claim to have accomplished anything positive and worthwhile until they have reduced the threat of rocket attack. Therefore, I can’t see how their decision to murder over 300 Gazans, including dozens of women and children, can be seen as justified in any way at this point. The Israelis will probably feel compelled to take further action in a likely vain hope of reversing this trend of increased threat.
Indeed, Prime Minister Olmert has confirmed this:
Prime Minister Ehud Olmert told cabinet ministers, who reached their decision following a presentation by defense officials, that Israel would not conclude its operation until all of its goals had been reached.
“We did not begin the Gaza operation in order to finish it with rocket fire continuing like it did before,” Olmert said.
Of course, the rocket fire is worse than before, which is what I predicted on the first day of the invasion. This makes a ground invasion much more likely.
When Olmert visited IDF Southern Command headquarters in Be’er Sheva Tuesday, most of the senior officers with whom he met urged him to authorize a ground operation. People at the meeting said their impression was that Olmert agreed.
Moreover, even a temporary cease-fire is liable to take some time to arrange, and during this time, ongoing fire and further casualties could spark renewed escalation.
IDF troops have been massed along the Gaza border awaiting a ground operation for two days already, exposing them to rocket and mortar fire. And on Monday, a mortar shell killed a soldier at the Nahal Oz base.
Defense Minister Ehud Barak, who planned the Gaza operation using much deception, is sending mixed signals.
In discussions with Olmert and [Foreign Minister Tzipi] Livni on Tuesday, Defense Minister Ehud Barak recommended seeking an exit from the fighting within the next few days, using one of the various international initiatives currently being worked on.
Barak also favors the French proposal for a 48-hour truce that would be used to examine Hamas’ willingness to agree to a long-term cease-fire, in addition to its stated purpose of providing humanitarian assistance to Gaza’s population.
Olmert and Livni are said to be less enthusiastic about the French proposal.
I don’t believe the cabinet is really divided or, if they were, that they would let the world know about it. Only strong objections from the Bush administration can cut off the possibility of a land invasion of Gaza, and that seems highly unlikely to be forthcoming. I also believe that Hamas wants the Israelis to invade because they know they will be victorious over the IDF eventually when internal and external pressures force the Israelis to retreat back into Israel-proper. The only questions remaining are if the U.S. will keep the green light on and if the Israelis are dumb enough to step on the gas.
What would you propose that they do to reduce the threat of rocket attack, and what makes you think it would be any more effective?
Gosh, Oscar, I don’t know, but when Israel was abiding by the ceasefire that it had agreed to Hamas wasn’t firing rockets. Even when Israel broke the ceasefire multiple times, Hamas continued to observe the ceasefire, and did an admirable job of reining in other groups, such as Islamic Jihad. It was only after Israel went on a mini-rampage, launching a number of significant attacks, and killing 25-30 Palestinians in 3 days that Hamas finally started firing rockets again.
And do you know how many Israelis were killed from the time the ceasefire began until Israel began its current murderous bombardment of the Gaza strip? Exactly zero. Now, guess how many Palestinians the Israelis killed during that period. And guess how many of them were children. And how many of them were women.
Does that suggest anything to you about what Israel might do to reduce the threat of rocket attacks?
Link?
Oscar aka Nabob
Your denial or lack of awareness is pissing me off!
LINK!!!
http://www.btselem.org/english/OTA/
Well, I have no dog in this fight between Israel and its neighbors, so I don’t exactly keep up with every detail of it. However, when I see an incredibly one-sided discussion I tend to ask questions to see if I’m actually missing something or if those discussing it have a particular axe to grind. If that pisses you off then that’s neither my fault nor my problem – I’m simply trying to understand the animus hereabouts; it seems rather irrational.
How do you NOT know what has been done in your name AND with your money all of these years?
I have a job and other obligations – I don’t have the luxury of combing through every line of a trillion dollar budget while providing oversight to the government. That’s why we hire people to represent us in Congress. I have a limited amount of time and resources and Israel et. al isn’t high enough on my list of issues for me to remain current on everyone’s spin on the facts. It’s especially so because people can’t even seem to agree on the facts when it comes to this deal, so I’d probably be better off simply declaring a pox on all parties and being done with any discussion of an issue that won’t substantively change in my lifetime.
That actually sounds like the wise course of action – consider it done.
Two tears in a bucket…
Oh, boohoohoo! Like the rest of us don’t have jobs and obligations.
And yet somehow we manage to shake off the brainwashing, and see past the propaganda that spews from the government and permeates the media and not repeat it verbatim as if it were factual.
Tell ya what, Oscar. When you provide links that support your claims about “incessant rocket fire” and the like, I will provide you as many links as you want.
No need.
I find your argumentation to be particularly intellectually dishonest – or are you constantly kidding? – so I have no further intention of engaging you in discussion.
Israel broke the truce the evening of Nov, 4, 2008. while we were watching election results.
see my full comment downthread.
Oscar, this ain’t the time for Gazans to turn the other cheek. If Mexico or Canada were bombing us what would be our response?
Homemade rockets and stones against F-16s !!!?!!!
Despicable.
Isn’t it obvious by now, Oscar, that Israel’s position is not strengthened by the status quo (which includes the doubling of the settler population every 10 years) but is weakened by it?
Israel cannot stop rocket attacks no matter what they do, including physical occupation of the territory from which the rockets are launched. They cannot achieve security through force, or at least any force short of annihilating their enemies.
So, their choices are:
They can do it sooner (when it is likely to bring security) or later (when perhaps nothing can save the Jewish state).
Israel’s greatest folly is to see themselves as strong. Their second greatest folly is to see themselves as weak.
Do you really believe that if Israel were to remove all settlers from the West Bank and Gaza that those who advocate Israel’s eradication would be placated? IIRC, Hamas doesn’t acknowledge Israel’s right to exist, or has that changed?
Oscar,
Lose the Underground Railroad link.
You shame your ancestors for not caring about democracy for others.
LINK!!!
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1035414.html
Last update – 07:59 09/11/2008
Haniyeh: Hamas willing to accept Palestinian state with 1967 borders
By Amira Hass, Haaretz Correspondent and News Agencies
The Hamas leader in Gaza, Ismail Haniyeh, said on Saturday his government was willing to accept a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders.
The Hamas leader spoke at a meeting with 11 European parliamentarians who sailed from Cyprus to the Gaza Strip to protest Israel’s naval blockade of the territory. Haniyeh told his guests Israel rejected his initiative.
<snip>
“Our ties with Iran are like those with other Muslim states. Does a besieged people that is waiting breathlessly for a ship to come from the sea want to throw the Jews into the ocean? Our conflict is not with the Jews, our problem is with the occupation,” Haniyeh said.
The protest boat Dignity anchored at Gaza port Saturday morning, carrying nine MPs from Britain and Ireland, one from Switzerland and one from Italy. The parliamentarians sought to express their opposition to the Gaza blockade and see for themselves its effect on Gaza’s population. The 11 were among a few dozen members of European parliaments who about two weeks ago were refused entrance to Gaza at the Rafah crossing by Egyptian officials.
This was the Dignity’s third voyage from Cyprus to Gaza in 10 days, and the third time in three months the Free Gaza Movement organized a protest sail and visit to Gaza.
The peak of the group’s first day in Gaza was their meeting with Haniyeh at his official guesthouse in Gaza City’s exclusive Rimal area – formerly the guesthouse of Yasser Arafat. The two-hour meeting was a good-natured affair, at the end of which the parliamentarians noted their host’s pleasant manner.
“Your visit proves that the Palestinian people is not alone in its struggle against the blockade and that many of the peoples of the free and cultured world support us,” Haniyeh told his guests.
He explained to them why Hamas boycotted the talks with Fatah that were scheduled to begin on Sunday in Cairo. “We had 17 political detainees [from Fatah, held without trial and without being charged] being held in harsh conditions – I’m not proud of that,” Haniyeh said. “They were released. We expected a similar measure from our brothers in Ramallah, but unfortunately the situation only worsened ahead of the meeting in Cairo.”
According to Haniyeh, about 400 Hamas activists are being held in Palestinian Authority jails in the West Bank, and all requests to release them have fallen on deaf ears.
Palestine’s woes.
BooMan, I really hope the title of this post is sarcastic.
It’s not. This is not an article about Palestine’s woes. It is an article about Israel’s. I think you can tell the difference. I hope.
Poor, poor Israel. Always the victim.
Whatever.
“Police found posters in the area offering a reward of around £170,000 to anyone who kills a member of Peace Now, a well-known Israeli group which campaigns against the occupation. Sternhell has long been a Peace Now supporter.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/sep/26/israelandthepalestinians.middleeast1
“Scottish activist films Israeli navy shooting at Gaza fishermen”
http://www.sundayherald.com/news/heraldnews/display.var.2446157.0.scottish_activist_films_israeli_na
vy_shooting_at_gaza_fishermen.php
No wonder Israel shoots reporters.
“Egypt has refused to allow entry to an Israeli truck carrying 3.5 ton of ceramics after high radiation levels were detected in the shipment.”
http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=64963§ionid=351020502
Don’t tell Oscar that Israel kills journalists and gets away with it
James Miller, Subject of `Death in Gaza’ Murdered by IDF, May Yet See Justice
Aug 5th, 2007 by Richard Silverstein
James Miller, the award-winning British documentarian who was shooting a film in Gaza about children caught in the crossfire of war, was himself shot and killed by an Israeli patrol in 2003.
Death in Gaza shows the two journalists leaving the home of a Palestinian family in the turbulent Rafah refugee camp at night, carrying a white flag. They were accompanied by a local crew from Associated Press Television News (APTN).
In an investigative report in October 2003, the journalist John Sweeney wrote: “They had walked about 20 metres from the veranda when the first shot rang out. The team froze. For 13 seconds, there is silence broken only by Saira’s cry: `We are British journalists.’ Then comes the second shot, which killed James. He was shot in the front of his neck. The bullet was Israeli issue, fired, according to a forensic expert, from less than 200 metres away. Immediately after the shooting, the IDF said that James had been shot in the back during crossfire. It later retracted the assertion about where in his body he was shot, but until today it has maintained that he was shot during crossfire. There was no crossfire on the APTN tape.”
It was Israel who broke the truce while the U.S. and the rest of the world watched November 4, 2008 election night results.
on lobbing home made rockets… Are the Palestinians expected to turn the other cheek while F-16s are bombing overhead?
400 dead including children in the morgue with missing limbs.
this morning (fifth day) we read Israel has rejected the Quartet’s call for a 48-hr truce to allow in humanitarian aid.
The only thing Israel respects is money. So let’s take it all away.
How about a world wide boycott of ALL exports from Israel. As in the days of apartheid South Africa, a shout out to unions not to unload any ships or airlines embarking from Israel. Boycott may be expanded to include all connections to the Jewish state. And btw, also let’s include cancellation of that $30 billion aid pledged on our behalf for the next 10 years to the Israel orphan child — now 60 years old and prosperous…a meddler living very well and killing — on our money!
We’re complicit!!
Oooh buckle up. There’s an Iranian vessel with 10 doctors and humanitarian supplies on board, destined for Gaza. It should arrive in another 12 days. We’ll see if it’ll will be given the McKinney relief boat treatment. No bets on the outcome…I’m not that brave.
related thoughts
Memo to President-elect Obama
We noticed you found your tongue to speak out on Gov. Blagojevich’s pick of Roland Burris for the Senate. Given that you were cited by Ehud Barak to justify the bombings, perhaps you can extend the movement of your lips to include a sympathy word or two on the killing of Gazans. Do you need Rahm’s and AIPAC’s permission?
“Are the Palestinians expected to turn the other cheek while F-16s are bombing overhead?“
Yes.
I’ve been boycotting Israeli products for decades. Today I decided for this reason not to buy the dates in the local store.
Yes, I too have been boycotting Israeli products for decades.
And this year when a dear friend of mine, a Israeli-born Jew whose parents are from Mosul, invited me to take Passover with him and his family (and enjoy his mother’s authentic Mosul cooking) while I was in the Middle East, I sadly had to turn him down.
Link?
Maybe I missed it – and that may well be the case – but you’re telling me that out of the blue Israel decided to start bombing Gaza for no reason? Just ’cause?
Links as requested
Patience ran out !!!?!!! How much disinformation can Israel serve up? Palestinians – walled in starved, deprived of medicine, and elecricity – can’t be expected to turn the other cheek. Even Jesus was counsel that they fight back with whatever they can cobble together.
How does Barak, Olmert, Livni, Bush look in striped orange suits? Notice Brown and Millbank did a CYA?
Israel’s bloody hands are despicable. And like their “savage attack” on the USS Liberty Israel would like the world to believe they’re innocent. Since time immemorial always the oppressed, never the oppressor.
By the end of March 2008 274 Palestinians were killed, at least 50 of them were children, almost 1000 wounded many with permanent disabilities. That doesn’t even count people/children dying from the blockade who were without food or medical supplies…or what homes were destroyed.
I read so many links/various sites that I can’t find right now exactly which site this information came from but will go back and try and find links.
That’s just for the first 3 months of the ceasefire..the rest of the year isn’t much better.
Finally, Israel has made its biggest miscalculation.
And at his vacation retreat, Obama gets an intro – his first protest –
Ynet reported that Israel broke the ceasefire in June. I can’t find that article but I see that someone at Kos is reporting on the war crimes
Reuters]
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/12/31/01030/341/800/678550
Because Israel won’t be restrained I do hope they do try to go in on the ground. It won’t be only Palestinians being killed and they’ll lose just like they did in Lebanon.
Hopefully once and for all.
“The only questions remaining are if the U.S. will keep the green light on and if the Israelis are dumb enough to step on the gas.”
Those are questions? I think I know the answer to both of them already.
Without being snarky, this is the classic definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. The israelis can’t win this. They simply can’t. Hamas is a popular movement, and where the Israelis got this idea that by attacking gaza they will somehow generate hatred for Hamas among the people, I will never know.
This will end up exactly like Lebanon. Hamas, like Hexbollah, will suffer a bloody nose but be even more deeply entrenched, and Israel will not accomplish its objective. I say this with no joy: I am so tired of hearing about dead people in the middle east. Blowing people up as a matter of policy doesn’t work.
“where the Israelis got this idea that by attacking gaza they will somehow generate hatred for Hamas among the people, I will never know.“
But the tactic worked so well in Lebanon! And it worked so well when they used it against `Arafat and Fatah, too.
The intent why to kill of the leaders, and police including the new recruits. They want Gaza in a perpetual state of chaos. No partners for peace….
Catnip found this excellent article in UK Times:
We must adjust our distorted image of Hamas
Here is the history we don’t hear, numerous times Hamas indicated they wanted a resolution.
The only way to derail peace was to break apart the unity government between Hamas and Fatah. Bush was too stupid to figure out the evil machinations of the Israelis. Years later, Israel has excuse to wipe out Gaza, and peace once again shelved.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/t…
It is Israel’s woes, since when a nation suffers, its first inclination seems to be to lash out.
I don’t think there are any angels here, either with Israel or Hamas, though the effectiveness of the Israeli collective punishment makes me apalled that while they are showing some restraint, its not nearly enough restraint, and that my tax dollars are going to what amounts to the systematic destruction of a people (again!)
However, the idea that Israel is doing the same thing over and over and the situation is getting worse (Hamas getting improved rockets, which endanger Israeli civilians) is pretty pathetic.
Both sides also seem to benefit from this. For Isreael, using more weapons means getting more weapons from the US. For Hamas, they are now heroes when they were elected because they weren’t as corrupt as Fatah.
I personally feel the best the US can provide is a more even-handed assessment and less military aid. Its not like Israel is really in danger of being obliterated — they’ve shown they can defend themselves and the US would help if the situation got too dire.
Its been long since the time for cooler heads to prevail.
The US shipped Israel 40 million in bombs last month that are being used for this particular invasion.
What “restraint” are the Israelis showing by killing an average of 75-100 Palestinians per day, at least 10% of them children, and maiming hundreds, perhaps thousand per day? How does that qualify as “restraint”? How is it “restraint” to bomb civil infrastructure, killing mainly civil servants? How is it “restraint” to bomb kindergartens, and universities, and hospitals, and mosques and thousands of homes? And how is it “restraint” to flatly refuse a 48 hour “humanitarian” ceasefire, even after its best friend in the whole wide world, the Bush regime, joins the U.N. and the Quartet in demanding it? Please explain to me how it is in any way appropriate to describe anything Israel is doing as “restraint”.
“It is Israel’s woes, when a nation suffers, its first inclination seems to be to lash out.“
Do tell us, when a nation causes horrific, unimaginable, protracted suffering to an entire population of severl millions, does that population then have a right to “lash out”? Or are they expected to sit passively while they are squeezed, humiliated, starved, and bombed into oblivion?
And tell me, please, what is Israel’s great “suffering” that it has a right to “lash out” by committing massacres day after day after day? Who in Israel is suffering? Do you think the people in Tel Aviv or Haifa, or Jaffa, or Netanya, or Nazareth are suffering? Do you think they even have to alter their lives at all as their military squeezes the live out of, starves, and slaughters millions of people just on the other side of the “border” (note: Israel has up to now declined to define its borders – gee, I wonder why)? Do you think they even notice much outside of what they see on TV of their glorious military’s exploits?
Please tell us what huge suffering is the nation of Israel undergoing that is inclining them to “lash out” so murderously?