Here’s something I just don’t understand.
There’s absolutely no good reason for Obama not to close Guantanamo immediately and simply try the detainees in our already-extant courts of law. That’s how we’ve convicted all sorts of accused terrorists in the past. The only reason not to do so is a desire to disregard — violate — these long-standing American principles and instead create a new process that allows torture-obtained evidence to be used.- Glenn Greenwald
I, at least, have never suggested that everyone that is detained at Guantanamo Bay (or in secret prisons) is innocent. I have merely noted that many of them are, and that decisions made by the Bush administration have made it difficult or impossible to convict the rest.
What we have is several dozen people in our custody that we do not want to release but who we may not be able successfully prosecute. In the ordinary course of things, we release bad guys when we screw up the handling of their evidence. Or, when we prosecute them using tainted evidence, the judge and/or jury acquits them. Unfortunately, some of the characters we have in custody, like alleged 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, are not only extremely dangerous but (if the allegations are true) have the blood of nearly 3,000 Americans on their hands.
Now, let’s go back to Greenwald’s point.
There’s absolutely no good reason for Obama not to close Guantanamo immediately and simply try the detainees in our already-extant courts of law.
I don’t know that there is any great reason to keep Guantanamo Bay open for the next 100 days, but the underlying point seems to be that we will not be able to figure the proper way to disposition the cases of the people being held there in a mere three months. I know we have been in discussions with the Australians, the Portuguese, and others, to see if they will accept some of the Guantanamo prisoners. Last I heard, we’re having difficulty negotiating terms. As for the individuals that we do not want to release (or release into someone else’s custody), we do need to prosecute them in some manner. However, there are at least a handful of cases that may be unprosecutable in normal courts of law. Our choice, in those cases, would seem to be between prosecuting them and losing, or setting up some kind of patchwork system to make up for the fact that the Bush administration totally screwed up their cases.
The debate is over how to avoid releasing extremely dangerous people (and what to do with those whom we do release). In answer to Greenwald, I’d like to point out that the Obama administration faces the same choice any elected judge faces when sentencing or parole board faces when setting someone free. If a criminal gets out of jail early and commits another crime, there is a high political cost. If they kill someone, there is a high moral cost. So, that is one good reason to think twice before trying (at least some) Guantanamo cases in extant courts of law.
Another good reason to hesitate is the competing claims to justice emanating from the victims of the crimes committed by some of the Guantanamo Bay detainees. What do we say to the relatives of 9/11 victims if we cannot bring a successful prosecution against the people that planned those attacks? Does their right to justice get wiped out by the waterboarding decision of George W. Bush and Dick Cheney?
Because the actual number of cases that fit into this category is actually quite small (probably less than dozen), it should be possible to craft some kind of one-time-only judicial procedure to deal with it. For example, we could allow evidence to be presented that was obtained illegally in those cases, provided that we allow the defendants to present evidence of the unreliability of such evidence. They should also be allowed to point out precisely which evidence would normally be excluded, and why. In other words, the jury would be fully cognizant of what evidence is tainted, why it is tainted, and why it is not normally allowed in a court of law.
It’s obviously not an ideal solution, but neither is releasing the 9/11 plotters. Whatever the Obama administration ultimately decides, I agree with Glenn that it would be a mistake not to deal with the other side of this. If Bush and Cheney had not committed crimes against humanity, we wouldn’t be saddled with these problems. Recognizing the need to punish Bush and Cheney is the flip-side of cleaning up after their mess with an imperfect judicial solution.
But it doesn’t surprise or bother me that the Obama administration is going to take a little time to work through the issues. I do not take it as a centrist move. I do not understand why Glenn thinks it is somehow a thumb in the eye to liberals. He promised to close Guantanamo, and he will. It will just take a little time.
“In answer to Greenwald, I’d like to point out that the Obama administration faces the same choice any elected judge faces when sentencing or parole board faces when setting someone free. If a criminal gets out of jail early and commits another crime, there is a high political cost. If they kill someone, there is a high moral cost.”
I think this is a false analogy. It is nothing like a parole hearing and not like a sentencing at all. Both of those examples at least someone has been CONVICTED of a crime. It is more like when the police arrest someone with tainted evidence and the judge has to throw out the case. The law says certain evidence MUST be thrown out.
In America it has always been that a person must be convicted of something to be held for a long length of time.
A judge that throws out evidence faces a chance of political consequences for his actions. It is part of the job.
Obama’s problem is not to ‘craft some kind of one-time-only judicial procedure’ (that most likely will be ‘extra judicial’, and not judicial at all), it is explaining to the American people WHY some bad people will go free, maybe to attack us again. It’s because Bush FUCKED UP.
Yes, he should take some time to come to a resolution. But Obama is already looking quite a bit (and SOUNDING like more than a little bit) like the same ‘ol Boss we just got rid of.
Another reason Obama MUST have a clean break, whether with torture or Gitmo;
The same people who excused the Bush regime for extra constitutional behavor will be the first to demand impeachment of Obama if there is just the APPEARANCE of a crime in the coming administration. Obama MUST be as clean as a whistle on all the Bush crimes. All you need to do is look at what Rush Limbaugh wants. That is exactly what Obama should NOT do. It’s a trap.
nalbar
I’m going to have to respectfully disagree with you on this one, BooMan.
I can appreciate the complexity of the situation before Obama on Gitmo. But the notion that he is going to “take a little time” rings absolutely hollow when we’ve had this problem for seven years now. Surely Obama’s legal brain trust, and especially Barack Obama himself, a trained Constitutional Law professor and lawyer, has had time to come up with a solution to this problem.
The solution to the problem is to try these folks under the rule of law, if only to prove the rule of law in the United States will still even exist under President Obama.
It’s not a question of working through all the nuances and legal pitfalls. It’s a matter of restoring world trust in what has been for the last seven years, the most dangerous rogue country on the planet. Only Nixon could go to China, only Obama can close Gitmo.
It’s one of the many tough choices he’s going to have to make, or the rest of the world will be through with America…and they may very well decide to take things into their own hands.
As you’ve said, failure to adhere to basic principles of human decency is posing a massive security threat to our country. We have given the world a very good reason to hate us. Obama has the power to reverse that but only if he acts soon.
There’s some things where you cannot split the difference. This is one of them. He needs to close Gitmo as soon as humanly possible. We have a narrow window to earn the world’s trust again. If Obama blows it, America may never recover.
I think you need to take a breath and think about the implications of what you’re saying.
Imagine if we brought KSM into a court of law but could not present any evidence about how we learned of his role in 9/11 or his confession or anything else needed to win a life sentence. Imagine that he was acquitted. Imagine that no country would accept him for deportation. Imagine that he had to be released into American society. Imagine that he needed to be entered into the witness protection program. Now our tax dollars are paying to protect KSM as he lives among us.
Set aside the legal issues. How would that be justice? Yes, it would vindicate the rule of law. But it would trade a medium size injustice for an unimaginably large one.
More importantly, it would be popular with maybe 3% of the population. Most people would be completely outraged and the rest frightened to death.
All of these things are considerations. They are valid considerations. We can shut down Guantanamo. We can set most of the people there free and prosecute others, including some that might win their cases. But there are a handful of people that cannot be set free, and we are not going to set them free just because Bush allowed them to be tortured. But that is why Bush should pay for this. If he doesn’t, then we will not have justice.
There is no requirement that Justice be popular, or fair.
And even murderers deserve Justice for the crimes committed to THEM.
If all the evidence connecting KSM to 9/11 was gotten through torture, then there is, and never was any evidence at all. This is because torture DOES NOT WORK for gathering ‘evidence’, and historically has not been used for that purpose.
It is a method for gathering CONFESSIONS.
This is why it taints all it touches. Bush and company should not be prosecuted only because they hurt people physically, but also because they tainted the system. Explaining that fact is Obama’s real job.
Just answer this;
Who says KSM did what he is accused of? Who? Whoever they are it is not evidence until they get on a stand and swear to it. Before a judge and a jury. All within constitutional laws. If you cannot do that, then yes he has to go free. Like it or not, it’s our system. You cannot pick and choose who to apply it to. Because… who picks? Who chooses?
nalbar
@nalbar: Totally, completely and absolutely agree. Thanks for saying it better than I did.
I applaud your dedication to your ideals. I share them. I don’t, however, think it is possible that the 9/11 mastermind will be set free. No politician would do such a thing unless they were certain he was innocent and that they could demonstrate that he was innocent. Unless that is the case, and I sincerely doubt it, some way is going to be found to keep KSM and his coconspirators in custody, despite was Bush did to them. That’s reality, and I don’t think it is a new injustice. The injustice has already been committed.
Don’t you mean his alleged co-conspirators? After all, pretty much every bit of the “evidence” against each of them is seriously tainted.
I’m not saying they are innocent, ’cause I don’t know and neither do you and neither, most likely do the people who are accusing them. I’m just sayin’…
There are problems with bringing some of these folks to trial because thanks to Bush, we’re not going to be able to convict them. That’s Bush’s fault, I agree with you. Potentially it’s a nightmare.
But two wrongs don’t make a right. Continuing to hold these suspects indefinitely and the hundreds of others in Gitmo and other US facilities without trial is wrong, period. There’s no potential nightmare there, it is a nightmare. It says America is a country that tortures and imprisons out of political fear.
At some point Obama has to say “we will try this suspect in our courts because we believe in the rule of law in this country.”
Either we do, or we don’t. It’s Obama’s call. It’s one he needs to make very quickly.
Are we a nation of laws or not? Do we stand for or against civil rights for all people, both good and bad? Is America still a democracy? Rather core questions are they not?
Yep, and we might not really want to know the answers.
Tonight I listened to an interview with Rashid Khalidi, who has a new book coming out soon dealing with U.S. foreign relations. One of the things he said that is absolutely critical for us to keep in mind at all times is that George Bush made lots of things a lot worse, but he did not fundamentally change anything.
As I have said numerous times, it didn’t begin with George W. Bush, and it will not end with George W. Bush.
But it doesn’t surprise or bother me that the Obama administration is going to take a little time to work through the issues. I do not take it as a centrist move. I do not understand why Glenn thinks it is somehow a thumb in the eye to liberals. He promised to close Guantanamo, and he will. It will just take a little time.
I agree.
Seems like something to keep in mind is that people are tortured in order to get the ‘confession’ desired, which is not necessarily an authentic confession. People ‘confess’ to stop the torture.
I mean, look up Khalid Sheikh Mohammed in Wikipedia and check out the long list of things he supposedly confessed to, just short of World War II. Christopher Hitchens lasted less than a minute under the waterboarding, and he was in a safe situation.
Cheney et al needed somebody to finger and something that would look like success in their GWOT. Not to mention shifting any suspicion from themselves.
After five years in Guantanamo KSM and four others said they wished to plead guilty to all charges. It’s at least possible that they wanted to get it all over with, even if it meant execution.
Yes, it is definitely worth keeping that in mind, and that is why we would never ordinarily allow any information to be presented in a courtroom that was obtained under coercion.
And I want KSM to be able to present a normal defense.
I think what we are dealing with here is an extraordinary situation. I think that valuable information was obtained under torture, but it came with a whole lot of bullshit. We took the valuable information and made new arrests and then tortured those people. We also got a ton of false leads and probably arrested innocent people and tortured them. What’s left is a mess that can’t be put back together again and brought into a normal court of law.
Many of the people that have joined with me in opposing torture like to point out that torture doesn’t work because it causes false confessions. That’s only kind of true. If you are on the playground and a bully comes up to you and threatens you, you will probably tell him what he wants to know. If you grabs and twists your arm behind your back, you’re more likely to tell him what he wants to know. Torture and intimidation do work. The problem arises when you don’t know the bully’s answer or when he doesn’t believe your answer. At that point, you’ll just start telling him whatever you think will get him to let you go.
We’ve made too much of the idea that torture doesn’t work. It works. But it doesn’t work well, and it is counterproductive in the long run.
We should not assume that the evidence we have on KSM that implicates him in 9/11 is false. However, as you point out, he confessed to every crime in history.
I am assuming he is guilty of the core complaint…murdering 3000 Americans. And I’d much rather put Bush in jail for torturing him than let him go because he was tortured. Bush already committed the injustice, but we can’t vindicate that injustice by letting a mass murderer go free.
Believe me, I find the whole situation appalling and infuriating, but I’m also realistic. No American politician is going to set KSM free or try him in a court of law without sufficient evidence to guarantee a conviction.
As I’ve said, the number of cases that fall into this category is probably fewer than a dozen. We’ll just have to figure out a way to deal with them.
Torture works? With no link to a scientific study, or any documentation at all? Who says? I mean, besides the torturers.
Someone has been watching ’24’.
nalbar
Like, for instance, this one;
http://www.fas.org/irp/dni/educing.pdf
nalbar
Use your common sense.
Let’s say I want the PIN number to your bankcard.
I ask you for it, you say no.
I threaten you. Depending on how credible you think my threat is, you might say yes.
I grab you and begin to inflict increasingly painful force on you. You say yes.
However, if I ask you for your wife’s PIN number and you don’t know it (and I don’t believe that you don’t know it) you will begin giving me any four-number PIN you can think up.
Yes, torture obviously works. That doesn’t mean it works well, or that it is necessary, or that it doesn’t create tons of false leads, or that it isn’t counterproductive, or that it is morally acceptable. But it does work.
Poor example, BooMan. When someone asks for your PIN it is easy for them to verify whether or not you have told them the truth. You know that, and can guess what the consequences will be if you lie. Therefore, you are extremely likely to tell the truth from the beginning.
I might have a slight advantage over you, BooMan, since I do know people who have been tortured, and it can be quite a different thing if you are being tortured for information that cannot so easily be verified. If you think it will work you are likely to give them bullshit information depending on the circumstances. When it comes to names, if you think you can get away with it you give them names of your enemies or people you dislike before you give them names of your associates.
What we agree on is that torture is an unreliable method. More importantly it is utterly immoral, it is literally criminal, and it sets up your own side for the same kind of treatment – in that order in my view.
Well said.
PS I also challenge the assumption that it works in terms of confessions. If someone is torturing me, I will confess to whatever they ask me to confess to in order to get them to stop.
For massive confirmation of these points check Communist trials, 1937, Moscow of sundry and assorted traitors to the cause of Stalin and the Soviet Union. Some of the confessing criminals were even ex prosecutors.
Let’s avoid having a semantic argument over what the word ‘works’ means.
Torture works in the sense I mean it and it doesn’t work in the senses you mean it. But I said that.
I have to agree here that absent a scientific study there is no basis for saying torture works.
In addition, I would suggest that if, for every piece of true information you get you also get, say, five pieces of bullshit information, then torture doesn’t really work because it can be impossible to distinguish the true from the bullshit.
I’m afraid I don’t assume KSM is guilty of being the ‘architect of 9/11.’ You mention ‘the evidence we have’, but so far all I’ve seen is confessions — his and others incarcerated in similar circumstances — and assertions from the likes of Philip Zelikow in his testimony before the 9/11 Commission. What evidence are you aware of? Seems to me all we know (publicly, at least) is what those in power want us to know, and much of that may be false.
The evidence against Ramzi bin al-Shibh is based on a lot of information, including financial statements, phone records, travel, intel provided by Germany, etc. I can’t do research right this moment on KSM, but his link to Ramzi is well established (they are related, I believe).
If I were Obama, I’d have my lawyers sit down with the FBI and go over the evidence on KSM and everyone else in his situation. If I thought there were innocent, or potentially innocent, I’d throw a fucking fit and expose it all. But if I was convinced that he did it and we could have proven it if not for spoiling the evidence, I’d figure something out. I would never release someone I was convinced had planned 9/11.
I really don’t think the fact that Khalid Sheikh Mohammad is related to or even close to Ramzi Bin Shibh is incriminating evidence no matter how much untainted evidence there is for Shibh’s guilt. That is pretty blatant guilt by association.
If the only evidence against Khalid Sheikh Mohammad was obtained under torture, then there is no reliable evidence of his guilt.
I’m just sayin’…
Totally agree.
Me too.
I am not suggesting that his familial relationship is incriminating. That was an aside.
And there you have it. You first claimed you want America to have fair trials and the rule of law and then you admit that the government shouldn’t let KSM go free if that’s what a fair trial would produce (or that it’s a political reality that he won”t go free).
So you don’t believe in fair trials. Nor do you expect America to even pretend to follow basic rules of law. You’ve got you’re excuses built-in. America faces unique enemies and therefore must break the rules of war and the rules of law–we are special. Doesn’t the World see that KSM is uniquely evil and therefore America just can’t follow the rule of law? It’s just the politics. The leaders would like to but it’s just soooooo unpopular.
That right there condemns the American system. When push came to shove even America’s “liberals” choose to break the rule of law. You pretty much admit that America can’t handle following the rule of law. America wants this man guilty and there will never be any tainted evidence that will keep us from getting our pound of flesh and probably executing this man (I’m guessing Obama does it).
Even the “liberals” in America are afraid to stand up to its fascists. Since it’s only the left-wing (the 3% you refer to) that cares about the rule of law in America, according to you, why even try? It’s only for the zealots, the purity trolls, and Obama-detractors.
Maybe you spend your time trying to convince the 97% that they should follow the rule of law instead of telling the 3% to just give the Dear Leader more leeway to avoid the morally and legally responsible action.
I’m talking about less than a dozen cases that arise out of a nexus between culpability in the 9/11 plot and the spoiling of evidence through the use of coercion, torture, and other denials of rights (the right to counsel, e.g.). Let’s be clear that I am talking about a very limited and specific set of circumstances.
Secondly, the point I am making is that these individuals should not be set free for national security reasons and as a matter of justice. In addition, it is politically impossible, but that’s not my main point. You could do something that is suicidal politically if it were unambiguously the right thing to do. In this case, it’s not.
Finally, I agree that violating the spirit of the law does violence to the law and harms us all. I have been infuriated about this since I learned that the evidence against the 9/11 crew was tainted. That is why I am insistent that any patchwork solution is accompanied by two things.
That’s what I advocate. I doubt 1) will happen. I know we’re not setting them free, especially in America.
It doesn’t matter whether it is one or one million, the principle is the same. Human rights is the right of every human being from the worst of the worst to the most virtuous and innocent. If you can justify denying human rights to one it opens the door to denying to anyone. Therefore, if you justify denying human rights to those twelve human beings, then you must hold your tongue when someone else decides to deny human rights to another twelve human beings.
The entitlement of every human being to certain rights is one of the few absolutes in this world, and it has to be that way.
This is the dilemma that George Bush and his regime have created.
All true, but their rights have already been violated. The question is whether or not to set them free as a result. In a handful of these cases, my answer is no.
Their rights have already been violated, sooooooo – what? No need to be meticulous about their rights from now on?
I agree it is a dilemma, but this equivocation about human right disturbs me greatly.
It disturbs me greatly, too. Why do you think I do what I do? Could it be that I found it personally necessary to oppose my government everyday in the best way I know how for what they were doing to my country?
Nevertheless, I am not going to sit here and advocate setting free the monsters that unleashed the 9/11 hell on the world because Dick Cheney isn’t much better.
In these handful of cases, there is no solution that is just. The closest approximation of justice is that they remain in prison and that Bush and Cheney join them. I advocate that.
As I said, it IS a dilemma. But if their confessions under torture is all there is, how do you even know for sure that they are the ones who did it?
Twelve exceptions to the principle of human rights is not “only” twelve.
“If I were Obama, I’d have my lawyers sit down with the FBI and go over the evidence on KSM and everyone else in his situation. If I thought there were innocent, or potentially innocent, I’d throw a fucking fit and expose it all. But if I was convinced that he did it and we could have proven it if not for spoiling the evidence, I’d figure something out. I would never release someone I was convinced had planned 9/11.”
I know everybody has probably moved on from this thread, but I just wanted to say I have a rather large problem with this statement of Booman.
Since when does the POTUS have the right to make decisions on who gets prosecuted and under what terms? Since when is the POTUS a King, and gets to decide who gets released and who gets locked up forever, with no fair trial? Have we really fallen so far that such positions get discussed on PROGRESSIVE blogs? It is a short step from saying this about KSM and then extending it to ANY AMERICAN CITIZEN. In fact, I see no where in Boo’s posts that he makes a distinction between American’s and ‘others’.
What about Tim McViegh? Could the POTUS lock him away, with no trial? The only difference between Timmy and the Trade Center attackers was scale.
Boo, I will use your words back at you, ‘use your common sense’. Where do you think we end up if each POTUS follows the Bush lead and make ‘special’ allowances?
What a tangled web we make when we pick and choose, or allow the POTUS to pick and choose. Presidents do NOT give up power easily, and if the power is not taken from them the next President goes just a little further. Isn’t that the plan Chaney has set in motion?
We are SOOOOO fucked in this country. Torture is now discussed for its utility, and unlimited detention for its convenience.
“In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;
And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;
And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;
And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up.”
Martin Niemoller
nalbar, talking to himself
Nalbar, I haven’t moved on, and I totally agree with you. The longer this thread gets, the more weaseling justifications and moral dubiousness it exposes, the more troubling it becomes. I suppose the upside is that the hypocrisies have been called out instead of fading into background noise. Thanks for your posts.
in a legal system based on precedent, “one-time only” never is.
in fact, bush and cheney are counting on it. it’s the only way they can avoid prosecution.
Except when the Supreme Court decides the Presidential election.
.
Elsewhere in the world the judicial proces has led to prosecution, imprisonment and execution of terrorists since 911. So what is the fear factor for Americans and the US Justice Dep’t?
JAKARTA, Indonesia (Bangkok News) Nov. 9, 2008 – Detik.com online news service reported from the port town of Cilacap near Nusakambangan island that their bodies were brought to a nearby clinic for autopsy and would be flown by helicopter to the men’s hometowns for burial.
At the hometown of brothers Amrozi and Mukhlas in the East Java village of Tenggulun, hundreds of militant supporters shouted “Allahu Akbar!” (God is Great) with many of them carrying banners praising the bombers as “heroes,” witnesses said.
A big “Welcome Martyrs” banner was unfurled on the road into the men’s East Java village amid fears of a violent militant backlash across the majority Muslim nation.
"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."
I don’t have time to read the thread. Maybe someone has already mentioned the following.
Why should Australia, Portugal and others take Guantanomo prisoners? If they’re so innocuous, I’d think the US is obliged to settle them in the US. There are a few Uighurs who have been found innocent and are forced to keep hanging around Guantanom enjoying US hospiality. Why can’t these men be admitted to the US? What is going on here: hypocrisy, deceit, I suppose. It seems that the Netherlands has definitely said no, and Australia seems hardly be interested but will consider the proposal out of obsequiousness to the US. Paging Mr. O.: please do more than hit the ground running, whatever that might mean. And regarding the people you are going to send to the Middle East to patch up things, see Cohen in today’s NY Times.
And so the Obama apologists are getting ramped up before he even takes office. I am going to say what I said back in 2007 when it became clear that the Democratic majority in Congress was going to do nothing of substance on the Iraq war and warrantless spying on Americans: to the extent that political expedience enters the equation, you are no longer making anything like a moral argument, and thus you surrender back the moral high ground left to you by the Republicans. Gitmo is wrong, period. Torture is wrong, period. Popular or not, wrong is wrong, and being able to say that clearly without being himself implicated in the crimes is one of Obama’s great strengths, for the moment. He seems prepared to give that up, and it is a mistake.
I also said back in 2007 that the failure to act swiftly would be a failure to act, period. It was now or never then for the Dems in Congress, and it is now or never today for Obama. Because what is thought to be politically dangerous in the present, after a big election win, will appear politically impossible the closer you get to the next election. How soon before serious calculation sets in over the 2010 midterms (if not already)? You wanna turn loose a bunch of “terrorists” and declare defeat in Iraq with the Next Biggest Election Ever looming? And then what? Doesn’t Obama want a second term? Doesn’t the 2012 election demand that we be “realistic” when it comes to war, torture, and spying, and all the other things we took exception to when they were done by Republicans?
I like Booman’s take on things, or else I would not read the site. But I think Booman was wrong on the $700B stimulus plan and the Dems support of it (when he said it was hard to take anyone seriously who threw out numbers like $700 billion, when in reality the total of direct and indirect aid to the financial sector over the last year is now known to total in the trillions), and I think he is wrong to provide breathing room on this issue for the Obama administration and expect it to come out well. Closing Gitmo as near to “right now” as possible is going to be a moral and political winner. Failure to do so will be the reverse. If the people presumably to Obama’s left on these issues start making excuses for him, there is no doubt where this is going to go.
My understanding is that the greater obstacle to closing Gitmo is not what to do with the people we want to keep, but rather what to do with the people we want to release (either because we think they are innocent or no longer a threat).
Persuading countries to take them may take a while. But I also expect the Obama administration to be on this with more urgency and competence than W.
I’ve read every comment. I must disagree with BooMan. If you don’t have legally admissable evidence, then you either try them in Federal court with what you’ve got or you let them go.
Juries do acquit people that have done horrible things.
Juries find guilt in people who have done nothing wrong.
Either we try them and trust the system or we let ’em go.
Seems to me the desire is for revenge, rather than justice, and a villain/scapegoat will be identified or manufactured to justify the revenge. As usual, only lost American lives count — before, during, or after 9/11. The event is preserved in a vacuum of righteous innocence without responsibility for cause or consequences.
That is one of the lovely aspects of American exceptionalism. And progressives are far from immune to it.
After 8 years of Dubya, it is so gratifying to finally have a president willing to promote justice and good policymaking. Closing Gitmo is not just the right decision if America hopes to once again lead by example, it will actually help improve security by doing something with terror suspects aside from unlimited detention.
http://democralypsenow.blogspot.com/2009/01/comrade-barry-vows-to-close-down-gitmo.html
I can’t recall the last time I thought America led by example. But that seems to be part of American self-image. Americans really desperately want to believe they are the destined ‘city on a hill’ and ‘light unto the nations’ — and any evidence to the contrary goes into the memory hole. Seems like serious denial, or willed ignorance. And a desperate need to feel innocent and good and superior.
And a desperate need to feel innocent and good and superior.
Which is clearly not possessed by those who toss about invidious generalizations about “America” and “Americans” as indiscriminately as some Americans — some — toss about flattering ones.
Or perhaps not so clearly.
I make no claim to superiority for any people. Only an invitation to the US to join the rest of the imperfect world. The US is a very competitive nation. Lots of ‘one ups’ and ‘put downs’ and expectation that any criticism must be met not with self-examination but with shooting the messenger — if only with sarcasm.
You do, however, appear to claim inferiority for “a” people: Americans, as you construe them. Hence your condescending invitation — because apparently, none of us regards him/herself as part of the imperfect world or believes anything about America but that it’s the greatest and most moral nation ever, a city on a hill, a beacon of justice.
It’s just the reverse of American exceptionalism.
Me, I’ve long been accustomed to, and engaged in, far more penetrating criticism of America than this kind of general, self-satisfied, lazy, flabby, and flatulent blather.
And that’s why I call it out when I see it. Because, you see, I’ve never much identified myself as an “American,” but rather as one who tries to be perceptive of and responsive to this amazingly diverse, richly discriminated thing called reality.
Seems to me that you are the one reading claims and condescension (very condescendingly, I might add) into observations that are not original with me — I believe Alexis de Tocqueville was the first to describe the cultural personality of the US, some 150 years ago. My invitation was a simple one, meant at face value. I don’t accept the false equivalence of your reverse. As for your self-definition and embrace of reality, good for you. But don’t you see that you’re still claiming to be superior? This is my last post on this thread. Got other things to do. [walking away, shaking head]