It’s pretty clear that the CIA is using Rep. Pete Hoekstra to kneecap Specker Pelosi. What’s not as clear is whether they have some justification for doing so. But I’m not that interested in that debate. Either way, the CIA is trying to beat back any accountability for torturing the crap out of people who were in their custody and at their mercy. And, on that score, I’m not sure they’re using the wisest strategy. The more they implicate Pelosi in knowledge of their torture programs, the harder it is for the Democrats to kill off investigations. Now that Pelosi is under suspicion, it would look self-serving for the Democrats to quash investigations.
Even under the CIA’s version of events, they tortured Zubaydah relentlessly, and months before they got any OLC blessing. When they briefed Pelosi on September 4, 2002 they had a new document from John Yoo and Jay Bybee that said that they could torture, but it’s doubtful that they told Pelosi that they had tortured a prisoner prior to obtaining that document. She says they told her they had the authority, but not that they had already carried out ‘enhanced interrogation techniques.’
They might succeed in making Pelosi look bad but they don’t change a thing about how bad they look themselves. Pelosi is guilty at most of failing to make a formal protest and of later minimizing her knowledge. If true, that’s unfortunate. But it’s not a war crime. It’s not torture. If the worst thing that happens to the Democrats from investigating is that a few of their number are busted for hypocrisy and mendacity, that’s hardly the equivalent of violating the Convention Against Torture. But, now that certain Dems have been brought under a cloud, they are under pressure not to cover-up torture because it will make it look like they are covering their own asses.
I think that Hoekstra and certain elements of the CIA are using each other to kneecap Pelosi.
And it seems those elements are end-running Leon Panetta. No doubt he is smart enough to figure that out. Democrats might fail on oversight and due diligence, but Republicans fail on violating (and even today publicly advocating the violation) of the Geneva Conventions and the US law that implements the US commitment to the Geneva Conventions.
Pelosi’s best tack to push for investigation, special prosecutor, and let the chips fall where they may. Just don’t pick Ken Starr as the special prosecutor.
There might be a kernel of truth in these anti-Pelosi allegations but it’s not that clear, actually.
I think she might have lied about her knowledge of waterboarding. It’s looks like sometime in the spring of 2003, as we were invading Iraq, she might have learned from a staffer that KSM was being waterboarded. But, it’s not that clear. What is clear is that she wasn’t told the whole story and it seems unlikely that she had a good grasp of what was going on.
It’s possible that she deserves criticism for failing to make a stand and for minimizing her knowledge after-the-fact. But I don’t think she has too much to worry about. The more that comes out the more obvious it will be how little she was told.
nah dude. it was in 2002. she went with a large delegation, inclouding harman and rockefeller, to gitmo. I’ve linked to the washington post article several times.
oh and by the way, THIS is quite hopey and changeriffic:
supposedely not approved yet by president change.
I wrote about this earlier this year when I criticized Greenwald. There are a handful of those guys that simply aren’t getting let go no matter what stretches in the legal system have to be made to keep them in custody. They’re guilty of killing hundreds or thousands of Americans and Bush’s mistakes aren’t going to be used to spring them, especially into American society. This was inevitable.
right.. this is all well and good.. but a bit late, given a couple of guys (as far as we know, just two?) have had their brains turned to jelly thanks to waterboarding.
and given the fact Obama is on record stating “rendition may still need to happen”, I’m not sure the attempt by Obama to revive anything has much credibility.
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“CIA is trying to beat back any accountability for torturing the crap out of people who were in their custody and at their mercy.”
Isn’t just possible, the feud between the FBI and the CIA before and after the blame game of 9/11 caused so much bad blood. The FBI refused to be part of torture practise, however Cheney/Rumsfeld seemed to have a hold on the CIA directors to get their policy adopted. The issue of WMD’s and going into Iraq, Powell before the UN, bedside scene with John Ashcroft, George Tenet and the Medal of Freedom, the Plame affair, Porter Goss as director, etc.
If I were part of the CIA I would be furious at Congressional and committee leaders who failed in oversight to protect the people getting the blunt of the blame in hindsight.
"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."The problem is that the only “hindsight” that has occurred is the scapegoating of the CIA by the Bush administration during Congressional hearings and internal investigations held before January 2009.
The real look back has not occurred. That is why we need a special prosecutor in this matter.
Also exactly which CIA is furious and has the ability to go to the press? Is it very likely to be those who were appalled at what the Bush administration was doing?
I look forward to Sy Hersh’s recounting what is going on. His sources are from a different CIA than what reports to the WaPo, NYT, and the cable networks.
And is it coincidence that this occurs exactly when Dick Cheney is going on major media in an attempt to become the voice of the GOP.
Please, not Sy Hersh. Just get your propaganda straight from Langley.
The war is on. Expect more military scandals against the Dems, “proving” the Dems are weak or some such rot.
http://southofheaven.typepad.com/south_of_heaven/2009/02/past-is-prologue-again.html
Just saying.
the “dems” are strong?? heh heh heh heh… good one!
was it “strong” of Pelosi to pre-emptively take impeachment “off the table” back in 2006, the most effective Constitutional tool to deal with the out of control executive?
Please explain.
EXACTLY.. I cannot wait for Sy Hersh to bust this wide open. I’ve been trying to get “progressives” elsewhere to understand.. nobody is going to succeed with the democrat’s effort to whitewash/cover up complicity by the demorats. that idea is absurd and rather disturbing since it approaches Freeper mentality/behavior.
I suppose when Hersh does put something out, he will be labeled as some sort of nutcase or “leper” and cast out, i.e. similar to what they attempted to do with Krugman, Reich, Stiglitz etc., for their criticism of Obama’s handling of the banking/AIG disaster?
Once again, Oui, thanks for a very helpful article. You are a treasure for this blog. Re a bipartisan investigation into this torture business, I thing it is a matter of national honor. It must be done no matter whose political career is damaged. Otherwise, how can we call ourselves a civilized nation and why would any sane country follow our lead?
I’ll take it-Booman-not the worst thing in the world. If anything-this will force their hands regarding investigation.
Anything else will smell like the fabled and (sadly) time-honored “cover-up! It will look as though they’re engaging in CYA. All to the good. Let the chips fall-let the investigations begin. Under every dark cloud…………………….
He foreknowledge was reported on at the time. She’s been spineless collaborator #1 on my list since (tied with the Rock), as I’ve noted at any opportunity I could. Perhaps it’s her smarmy, obvious and self-serving hypocrisy that’s got ‘Them’/CIA fired up? Maybe there is no grand conspiracy and people’s memories are just starting to function again?
Kinda reminds me of the Vietnam era dems who conveniently forgot who really stoked that war up as they sought to benefit politically from it’s unpopularity. Point being that sort of shinanigans helped kill the Dem’s rep on foreign policy and defense back then and won’t help now.
yes, the similarities between the ‘war on terra’ and the ‘war on communism’ are too obvious to deny.
the problem is congressional democrats went along with the BOGUS-ness in both cases.. although they typically covered their big fat arses (again, in both cases) by standing by stupidly and letting the out of control executive declare war.
the executive does not have the power to declare/fund war.. some apparently need to be reminded of that.
She is a centrist/rightist in Dem’s clothing. A hypocrite of the first order. If the country is “moving left”…and it is, despite the protestations of leftiness clones everywhere…she and Reid will eventually be isolated on the wrong side of the party and good riddance to both. Had they stood up and fought…taking their chances of losing instead of protecting their right flank with every means at their disposal…what has happened since 2006 would have happened years earlier and literally hundreds of thousands of lives both in the US and in the Islamic world would not have been lost or at the very least ruined.
She’s a dinosaur just as much as are Cheney, Bush and the rest of the mainstream “middle”. The sooner the whole lot is gone the better.
AG
“The sooner the whole lot is gone the better.”
And Bayh along with ’em!
hey, Arthur Gilroy and I agree on something!
the sooner they are all gone the better, rotten horrible, soulless people.
Ditto to both thoughts.
MAJOR problems with your premises:
“It’s pretty clear that the CIA is using Rep. Pete Hoekstra to kneecap Specker Pelosi.”
No, this is not clear. c’mon… “the CIA is using Hoekstra”?? you expect me or anyone to buy into that?
“Either way, the CIA is trying to beat back any accountability for torturing the crap out of people who were in their custody and at their mercy”.
WHO exactly is attempting to hold the CIA accountable? certainly not Ms. Pelosi, certainly not Ms. Feinstein, who’s so called “investigation” as chair of the Intel Committee is a total farce due to her huge conflict of interest (Perini Construction).
and certainly not Jay Rockefeller, one of twelve senate democrats voting to approve the Military Commissions Act in 2006.. just after Pelosi took impeachment “off the table.
here’s who is demanding accountability: US, we the people.. and we’re not going to get it– particularly if “progressives” continue to deny obvious democratic complicity and QUID PRO QUO.
people here and at the orange site can try all they care to; the fact Rockefeller and other democrats approved the enhanced techniques is not going to be conveniently covered up – just because they are “democrats”.
it’s astonishing some progressives want to play politics instead of actually fighting for justice.
On NPR this morning, regarding this sordid mess, and regarding Pelosi, Daniel Schorr said: “why don’t the democrats just level with us about what they knew?”
I think we know why.
the attempt to apologise for/enable Pelosi is going nowhere.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Schorr
If she’s innocent, she is under all the more pressure to investigate now that her word has been doubted. That’s the point. They are trying to intimidate her. Considering the relative culpability in this scenario, she has an incentive to call their bluff.
Also, please explain how Feinstein’s husband creates a conflict of interest in this specific case.
are we going to discuss the fact Rockefeller and the other senate dems voted to approve the Military Commissions Act in 2006– the act which gave explicit approval to move forward with torture?
and are you aware this Act provides retroactive immunity for those who committed torture?
so I’m supposed to look at this as NOT being cover/protection of torture, provided by the Senate, including 12 senate democrats??
http://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/Military_Law/pdf/HCOR-2006-09-29.pdf
it’s hard to discuss this with you because every one of your comments has glaring factual errors.
The Military Commissions Act details how to hold trials for these detainees. It denies them habeas corpus rights, but it doesn’t say that they can be physically mistreated. It has no retroactive immunity in it, either. That was the FISA bill.
Booman: the problem here is that you and others are lammely attempting to preclude the democrats are not complicit with torture done under the watch of the bush administration– when the fact is plenty of democrats were on board with it.
in addition, the attempts to parse everything in the lame effort to excuse/apologize for democratic complicity is just that: Lame.
regarding the MCA and retroactive immunity:
From Wikipedia:
Protections from criminal and civil prosecutions for previous instances of alleged torture.
“Two provisions of the MCA have been criticized for allegedly making it harder to prosecute and convict officers and employees of the US government for misconduct in office.
First, the MCA changed the definition of war crimes for which US government defendants can be prosecuted. Under the War Crimes Act of 1996, any violation of Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions was considered a war crime and could be criminally prosecuted. Section 6 of the Military Commissions Act amended the War Crimes Act so that only actions specifically defined as “grave breaches” of Common Article 3 could be the basis for a prosecution, and it made that definition retroactive to November 26, 1997. The specific actions defined in section 6 of the Military Commissions Act include torture, cruel or inhumane treatment, murder, mutilation or maiming, intentionally causing serious bodily harm, rape, sexual assault or abuse, and the taking of hostages. According to Mariner of Human Rights Watch, the effect is “that perpetrators of several categories of what were war crimes at the time they were committed, can no longer be punished under U.S. law.”[32] The Center for Constitutional Rights adds:
The MCA’s restricted definitions arguably would exempt certain U.S. officials who have implemented or had command responsibility for coercive interrogation techniques from war crimes prosecutions.
. . . .
This amendment is designed to protect U.S. government perpetrators of abuses during the “war on terror” from prosecution.[33]
In 2005, a provision of the Detainee Treatment Act (section 1004(a)) had created a new defense as well as a provision to providing counsel for agents involved in the detention and interrogation of individuals “believed to be engaged in or associated with international terrorist activity”. The 2006 MCA amended section 1004(a) of the Detainee Treatment Act to guarantee free counsel in the event of civil or criminal prosecution and applied the above mentioned legal defense to prosecutions for conduct that occurred during the period September 11, 2001 to December 30, 2005. Although the provision recognizes the possibility of civil and or criminal proceedings, the Center for Constitutional Rights has criticised this claiming that “The MCA retroactively immunizes some U.S. officials who have engaged in illegal actions which have been authorized by the Executive.” [34]
read this and try to dance around it/parse it as you will.. it won’t work.
just because the exact phrase “retroactive immunity” is not used does not mean it is not going to be exercised on behalf of those who carried out torture– as obviously indicated above.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Commissions_Act
actually, you are right. I was wrong. There are efforts to provide retroactive immunity for war crimes (although, not including torture) in the Military Commission Act.
No Problem.. let’s just get real about the “get out of jail free” card provided to the torturers by senate democrats and what this means to the overall picture.
and again, this is not isolated to Pelosi. I wish it was, but it is not.
on the orange site I was reminded the retro immunity in the MCA applies “only” to military people.. but you can bet it will be extended to CIA as well.. since all of this falls under the always-convenient umbrella of “national security”.
The more they implicate Pelosi in knowledge of their torture programs, the harder it is for the Democrats to kill off investigations. Now that Pelosi is under suspicion, it would look self-serving for the Democrats to quash investigations.
That angle hadn’t occurred to me. But who is going to call for investigations, now that “Pelosi is under suspicion”? Progressives have been calling for investigations all along. The right isn’t going to start calling for investigations.
That means that for investigations to become more likely, the elite (corporate) media would have to start repeating the meme that the Democrats are not starting investigations because they’re afraid they’ll get implicated. I don’t see that happening (even though it would make a good story).
Should we try and push that meme? It might backfire, but it might be the only way to actually get an investigation due to democratic stone-walling.
But who would conduct it and what kind of investigation would it be? You know I think it’s worth it and that no price is to high to remove the rot of torture from this country–especially so it doesn’t happen the next time the Republicans get elected but I know other people feel differently.
Interesting take on the political implications. Now we have the window to harass our Dems to demand a full torture investigation/commission so they won’t look as guilty as the Bushies and the GOP. Independent investigation as self-defense. We can’t afford to miss this opportunity to get the Dems to do what many/most of them would rather miss.
If it is indeed the case that the CIA is taking actions on its own to influence policy behind the scenes, they are entirely out of fucking line. The CIA’s job is not to manipulate domestic public opinion or to pressure other parts of the government. Their job is to gather intelligence and undertake other covert work outside of the United States at the behest of the President of the United States with oversight provided by the appropriate congressional committees. Period.
Frankly, if Pelosi was personally waterboarding detainees in the congressional cloakroom, that would be deplorable, but very much small fry to a powerful agency like the CIA acting like a state-within-a-state.
I’m beginning to seriously wonder whether we have any foreign threats as serious as the threat posed by our own rogue intelligence agencies. It’s plain as day that they have long histories of considering themselves to be above the law and immune to review and accountability.
I think it’s past time these subversives — and I do not use that word lightly — were brought to heel before they do any further damage to the republic.