How do you convince the American people that it is in their interests to embroil American soldiers in yet another Muslim civil war? First, you find some retired general who thinks setting up a no-fly zone in Libya is a piece of cake. Then you quote him extensively, making comments like this:
“I can’t imagine an easier military problem,” he said. “If we can’t impose a no-fly zone over a not even third-rate military power like Libya, then we ought to take a hell of a lot of our military budget and spend it on something usable.”
Of course, the question isn’t whether we can create a no-fly zone over Libya, but whether we should. For Nicholas Kristof, the main reason we should is because we don’t want a repeat of history.
If the Obama administration has exaggerated the risks of a no-fly zone, it seems to have downplayed the risks of continued passivity. There is some risk that this ends up like the abortive uprisings in Hungary in 1956, in Czechoslovakia in 1968, or in southern Iraq in 1991.
Let’s set Iraq aside for the moment. While the crushed uprisings in Czechoslovakia and Hungary were unfortunate, especially for the people who had to live another thirty or forty years under communist rule, the American leaders didn’t do anything wrong during those conflicts. Anyone who sat around asking “who lost Hungary or Czechoslovakia?” for the next couple of decades was just playing politics. Direct military intervention would have risked nuclear annihilation. Sometimes, you have to be prudent rather than brave.
Iraq is a difficult example. We should have used our considerable influence to dissuade Saddam Hussein from obliterating Kuwait. We should have told Kuwait to quit dicking around with their more powerful neighbor. But once we failed to do those two things, we had to decide whether to allow Hussein’s aggression to stand. That was a question with no good answers, but once we decided that Kuwait should be liberated, we had to consider the end-game. Who would run Iraq? Another Sunni military man? Democratically-elected Shi’ites? Or, Saddam Hussein. We obviously did not want Hussein to remain in power, but unwilling to oust him from power ourselves, we tried to rely on a popular revolt from the Kurdish and Shi’ite populations. But did we want the Shi’ites to win? Was that in our interests in 1991? If it was, then why were we helping Iraq fight Iran three years earlier?
In my opinion, the Bush administration blundered catastrophically in the run-up to the invasion of Kuwait, and then they compounded the problem by having no vision or will-power to craft an alternative to Hussein in Baghdad. This left us with an unsustainable impasse…a decade of no-fly zones and self-defeating sanctions that hurt Iraq’s neighbors and people more than its leadership.
We wanted to invade Iraq just to end the clusterfuck we’d created twelve years earlier. But, of course, our impatience led us to trade a small clusterfuck for one of the biggest clusterfucks of all time.
But at least in Iraq we had rather clear national interests. For the duration of the Cold War it was contested territory. Iraq’s armed forces were built largely on the Soviet platforms, with some German and French stuff thrown in. The U.S. provided mostly technical assistance and intelligence, and this was mainly during the war with Iran in the 1980’s. With it’s vast oil reserves and strategic location, the U.S.’s energy/military interests dictated that we have an interest in Iraq’s affairs and their disposition towards Moscow and their neighbors.
Can we really say that about Libya? We have marginal corporate interests in the country, and we don’t want to see their oil off the market if that is going to lead to severe energy inflation in Europe. But that argues for stability, not for a sustained period of civil war and uncertainty. Getting Gaddafi to resign does nothing to assure stability. Who says that his opponents are unified? Who says they will agree to split the spoils equitably? Saddam ruled his country the way he did not only because he was a sadist but because the country would tear apart at the seams without some heavy-hand to keep things in order. The same may well be true about Gaddafi. I’m not opposed to the idea of democracy for Libyans, but we shouldn’t get too invested in the idea. There’s no evidence that Libya is ripe for parliamentary democracy. If it happens, great. If it doesn’t, let’s make sure we’re not to blame.
If someone wants to risk getting themselves into a decades-long commitment to “overseeing” Libyan affairs, let it not be NATO and the United States, but some coalition of regional players, including Arab ones, or let it be done by the United Nations if that is possible.
Kristof is too-willing to commit us without answering difficult questions. Gen. Merrill McPeak says, “Just flying a few jets across the top of the friendlies would probably be enough to ground the Libyan Air Force, which is the objective.” Well, who are the friendlies? Are we going to consider anyone who is fighting Gaddafi to be a friendly? Do we even know these people? What makes this tribe better than that one? Do we even care? And is grounding the Libyan Air Force really the objective? No, of course not. The objective of a no-fly zone is regime change. Once you commit to it, you are committed forever, or until there is a regime change. Unless the objective is to burn cash and gas flying planes over northern Africa, a decision to impose a no-fly zone is a decision to oust Gaddafi.
There are obviously costs and risks to our pilots, but as Iraq demonstrated, there are unintended consequences. There is blowback.
I keep saying this. Libya is not our problem. It’s not our responsibility to determine who will govern Libya. We can be prepared to intervene to prevent widescale slaughter of innocent civilians, but this isn’t a war between civilians and Gaddafi, but a war between armed groups representing different regions and tribes with different interests.
If someone wants to jump in with both feet and take ownership of the mess there, let it be Italy. Or France. We showed them how to ignore world opinion and the United Nations and invade an Arab country. We don’t need to do it again.
I guess there’s a lot of talk about this on the cable anti-news? I wouldn’t know. I assume the mouth breathers on cable just love american violence and think it’s the greatest thing ever, but the establishment is also probably eager to impose another international tar-baby on obama that they can then have eight million bull sessions about. I mean, we’ve done so well in Asia, let’s start remaking Africa in our own image. What could go wrong?
Exactly. Though it kills me to see the Libyans’ plight I remember the lesson learned of just because you can do something is all the more reason to keep it in reserve.
The No Fly could be the easy part once we have to face the day after it’s initiated.
So does this mean the US is going to stop fucking with Europe and allow it to develop an independent military capacity? Yeah, I thought not.
If I was in charge, Europe would have a free hand to do whatever they wanted. I wouldn’t dismantle NATO but I’d put everyone on notice that land and air defenses are purely Europe’s responsibility.
Whatever you need to prevent the Cossacks from overrunning you, build it yourself and pay for its maintenance.
If you need to overthrow an North African dictator to keep the heat on in winter, it’s all on you brother. Be my guest.
Booman Tribune ~ The Case Against a No-Fly Zone
Shit, have I upset KOS readers that much?
Well, I’ve thought about this quite a bit recently. Why, even in the heyday of public opinion against the Iraq war in Europe no one seriously tried to do anything about Americans bases in Germany, Italy, and wherever else.
So, it seems some Europeans are fine with that status quo.
This seems more a problem of Europeans not stepping up and taking control of the issue. Empire doesn’t take these steps on its own.
Looks like the French are going to take the lead …
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/Special/2011/03/10/Paris-recognizes-Libyan-opposition/UPI-11711299776015
/
http://www.timeslive.co.za/africa/article961225.ece/Sarkozy-threatens-Libya-air-strikes–Source
It’s interesting to see how this whole topic is framed in the US press. There is barely any acknowledgement that a “no fly zone” is, well, an Act of War, per international treaties and thus per US law (since the US ratified those treaties). I noticed Secretary Clinton actually pointed out that any No Fly Zone action should come from the UN, which is correct — however not many others have said this.
I mean, the thinking has evolved to “the US has the biggest, baddest military in the world and should be able to use it whenever we want”. International law is for wimps.
And let’s be clear, all those retired generals who are once again getting tons of media exposure are on the payroll of the military-industrial-media complex for one reason only — to promote war,
The other thing about this is that we’ve fallen into the trap of once again assuming that the “rebels” in the country of conflict du jour are the good guys. Remember the “Northern Alliance” in Afghanistan. They were supposed to be the allies of freedom and democracy and goodness. In the end they were exactly like the Taliban, except they promoted opium farms.
I question the motives of everyone in this particular episode. I’m with Booman, it is not the place of the US to intercede in ANY way.
Some of the Libyans even understand that we can’t help them, in that, if we do, it’s no longer THEY’RE revolution. And they need one of their own, desperately.
Besides, we have our own revolution to contend with. And what’s happening in Michigan is even worse than what’s happening in Wisconsin.
Most likely within two weeks there is a UN Security Council resolution authorizing a no-fly zone. If that happens, I expect that the US role will involve AWACS aircraft at least. The bulk of the mission likely will involve a mixture of NATO and other nations. There is a lot of diplomacy going on to involve Arab and African nations in the operation. The reluctance of these regimes is likely understandable under the current circumstances. And Libyan diplomacy is trying to peel off NATO members like Greece. We will see how that works. A similar effort to peel of Portugal resulted in Portugal joining France in recognizing the Libyan National Council as the legitimate government of Libya.
The current condition of the Libyan Air Force as reported by Wikipedia indicates that the aircraft of choice at the moment are 39 Su-22 ground attack aircraft and 2 Su-24 long range bombers. Also available are 104 Mig-25 interceptor/reconnaissance aircraft, which would be the most likely air defense to a no-fly zone. Most older aircraft are in rebel hands. Two Mirages went to Malta, leaving only 1 Mirage available to Gaddafi.
There has been a lot of discussion about no-fly zones among ex-pat Libyan activists. Most are advocating them as a way to save lives and hasten the downfall of Gaddafi. They see those 41 planes as the equalizer to an overwhelming popular revolt in 85% of the country and think the collateral damage from enforcing a no-fly zone for the short period of time needed to remove Gaddafi as less risky than the people who will be killed in Gaddafi’s scorched earth attacks. But they are partisans with a definite point of view. And not in the areas subject to military action to enforce the no-fly zone.
Just to add more fuel to the fire, there are captured spies in Libya. Russia Today reports there was no air force firing on civilian demonstrators. Which would make ‘false flag’ events and outside provocateurs the order of the day…again.
The U.S. practices unilateral economic warfare and propaganda from Hell. If you don’t know this….you must be unconscious.
“There is some risk that this ends up like the abortive uprisings in Hungary in 1956, in Czechoslovakia in 1968, or in southern Iraq in 1991.“
Either Kristoff is dead ignorant or a bloody hypocrite, or most likely both. The 1991 uprising in Iraq was not “abortive”, it was ruthlessly crushed with the complicity, and in some respects with the active assistance of the G.H.W. Bush administration of the United States.
When Bush the First urged the Iraqi people to rise up against Saddam Hussein he didn’t mean the Shi`as. The last thing he wanted out of the 1991 so-called “gulf” war was to replace Saddam and his regime with a Shi`a- ruled Iraq. What the Bush administration wanted was for members of the regime to overthrow Saddam so they could get rid of him and install a more compliant ruler while keeping the regime intact. They were very alarmed at the successes of the insurgency in the South (and in other parts of the country).
The story as it was understood then was that Bush had exhorted the people to rise up and overthrow the regime, and then heartlessly abandoned the insurgency, but what really happened was much worse than that.
The Bush military actively blocked insurgents’ efforts and refused them even medical aid, while at the same time giving Saddam the freedom to mercilessly crush the uprising often while U.S. military aircraft flew overhead observing the slaughter. Later Stormin’ Norman lamely claimed that Saddam had tricked him into allowing him to fly armed aircraft into areas held by the insurgents. He tricked that wily old general very day. He tricked him every day for eight straight days. Norman finally caught on to the deception after the insurgency had been well and truly crushed. Only then he told Saddam no more armed aircraft.
The U.S. did not want the 1991 insurgency to succeed, and took steps to ensure that it would not. Mr. Kristoff should know that, and I think he does.
“unwilling to oust [Saddam Hussein] from power ourselves, we tried to rely on a popular revolt from the Kurdish and Shi’ite populations.“
Not correct (see above).
“But did we want the Shi’ites to win?“
Not even a little bit, which is why you enabled Saddam to crush them.
“Was that in our interests in 1991?“
As always, the implied assumption that you have the right to pursue your interests in other people’s countries.
Well, your version of history isn’t explained. I think it is well-established that the Bush administration expected Saddam Hussein to be thrown out of power, but they probably expected (and hoped) that he’d be replaced by a friendlier and less sadistic Sunni general, not by some democratic revolution that empowered Iran.
I would like to know, however, why we shouldn’t pursue our interests in other countries when those countries invade a neighbor and eliminate it from the map. If the UN has the legitimacy to condemn such actions and to authorize force to rectify them, then surely the countries that are tasked with doing the work have every right to pursue their interests.
I personally opposed the liberation of Kuwait as a 20-year old who was just learning about the region. I opposed it for two reasons. The first was the I was personally offended by the dishonest argument the Bush Crime Family was making (restore democracy to Kuwait, incubator babies) . In retrospect, I shouldn’t have taken that stuff so personally. Maybe their argument was dishonest but that had no bearing, really, on whether Kuwait deserved to exist. The second reason was practical. I didn’t want us to get bogged down in the region without any way of leaving. Well, I believe I’ve been vindicated on that score. Bush was smart to not march on Baghdad, but once he committed to going he had to make sure Saddam wasn’t still in power when it was over. Leaving him there with his thirst for revenge was the worst of all outcomes, for us, and for the Iraqis.
But the evidence strongly suggests that Poppy Bush either blundered horribly (most likely) or actively precipitated the invasion of Kuwait (somewhat less likely) and so has to take a large measure of blame that any of this happened at all. But the person most responsible is the man who decided that it would be a good idea to invade Kuwait. He’s dead now, and that’s about the only good thing I can point to from the last twenty years of U.S.-Iraq history.
The last sentence is critical. While any governmnent has the right to pursue its own interests overseas at inter governmental level in temrs of polite and respectfukl discourse, once it moves beyond this into the realms of threat, interference and more it just becomes an aggresive act of imperialism, and one thast ultimately backfires on the aggressor. It also opens the agressor to legitimate counter action.
9/11 for example didnt happen just because some bad guys didnt like the US. It was a result of an agressive foreign policy that still continues to this day. Of course I am not trying to jusitfy either 9/11 or the undererpoted and quick forgotten ongoing slaughter of civilians in Afghanistan, Pakistan or Iraq for example or the murderous assaults on civilains by the mostly western funded and armed dictatorships in Bahrain, Yemen, Egypt, Oman and now Saudi Arabia or the murederous assaults on civilians in Libya where Russia also had an input on arming and training even if not quite on the level of the west.
To intervene in a people’s struggle is to undermine it and is no guuarantee of lessening life loss. In fact the loss of life is pobably far higher in Afghanistan and Iraq thanks to intervention and attempts to create institutions that dont refelct local reality. Even now as we see France recognise a quickly defected regime leader in Libya as the reperentative of Libya we see the imperial dreams of that country rise to the fore, and the question must be asked why would replacing one western puppet (dont mistake how close Gaddafu has been to certain EU countries, how he has been involved in the war on terror and how he even sent a delegation to Israel to show friendship) with another be something that would appeal to the people of a country?
And where are the calls today for Saudi Arabia to allow demonstrations andnot shoot protestors? Ah of course US interest is in maintaining the greatest oppressor in the Middle East so they can continue to carry out US policy, offer sweetheart deals to US companies and spend a fortune on weapons to repress their people. While many know that the US spends more on defence (interesting choice of word) than the rest of the world combined, few know that it ranks second to Saudi Arabia in defence (that word again) spending as a percent of GDP.
Thanks, observer! I couldn’t have said it better.
I actually wrote a reply, but for some reason, probably technical, it did not make it onto the page.
Yeah, who needs a no-fly zone? It’s just Libyans who are dying.
“expected Saddam Hussein to be thrown out of power”
More, please.Why exactly would they want to get rid of the amiable fellow who warred against his neighbouring country for years using U.S. military supplies and WMD after being placed in power to stabilize the region by the C.I.A.?
Only to distract from their role in king-making and use the emergency of war to do things resisted in peacetime.
……………………………………………..
All of this is occuring in a fashion which replicates the PNAC’s program to a ‘T’…’decapitate the governments in the oil-bearing countries in Asia and the Middle East.
Oil is a strategic material for waging war. If you check out the reasons Japan went to war back in 1941 you will find they were being deprived of petroleum supplies by the U.S.A. They knew they were under attack by a behemoth.
Similarly, oil is a tool for Russia to use to bend Europe to its wishes…unless they wish to freeze in the dark. Capturing control of that nearby strategic supply is a natural concern of force projection.
I think it would be easier if US would leave it up to UN. They always seem to be involved in countries in the Middle East when they are too far away from them.
choosehottubsdirect – choosehottubsdirect reviews