I agree with Gershom Gorenberg that Israelis, and even their prime minister, have come by their post-traumatic stress quite honestly. I also understand that it helps the United States’ bargaining position vis-a-vis Iran when Israel is unsatisfied and asking for much, much more. The same is true of Congress, including some Democratic hardliners. When they make credible threats to introduce new sanctions on Iran, it allows John Kerry to make a better case for some kind of interim agreement. So, I am willing to tolerate a certain degree of criticism of the deal that the P5+1 made with Iran over the weekend.
There are other critics, however, whose opposition, while entirely predictable, is far harder to stomach. Jennifer Rubin’s analysis, for example, treats the interim deal as though it is a final settlement. It’s the kind of sophistry she is known for.
I’m tempted to write something in Michael Tomasky’s vein. I feel like yelling at the people who supported war in Iraq (and Syria) but now offer criticism of negotiations with Iran. Don’t they realize that they are always wrong about everything?
If every instinct that John Bolton and Sarah Palin have is wrong, couldn’t you develop a fantastically successful foreign policy simply by doing the opposite of whatever they suggest?
I think you could get by quite well with a strategy like that.
I do think, however, that Netanyahu’s Agreement Anxiety Disorder is “is so intense it should disqualify him from public office,” and that “the poor man is not thinking clearly.” He’s going beyond playing the bad cop to Obama’s good cop. He’s creating ill-will toward his country from millions of people who support the party preferred by American Jews. There are twelve Jewish senators, none of whom are Republicans. Twenty-one out of twenty-two Jewish members of the House are Democrats. And Netanyahu is accusing their president of being some kind of disloyal idiot. This is not a way to maintain strong American support for Israel. It’s just not. Maybe some of our Jewish readers can chime in here and tell me I’m off base, but my strong impression is that most American Jews are pretty angry with how Netanyahu is behaving. Some of the other core groups in the Democratic coalition may pay less attention and feel less strongly about these issues, but they can’t be happy either. We elected Obama to pursue diplomacy and make war a last resort. He’s doing what we asked him to do.
Supporting Israel is akin to supporting South Africa in the 1980s.
Either you’re on the side of humanity, or the side of self-destructive bigots.
Well, that’s kind of a conversation killer…
As long as Israel is practicing preemptive war and enforcing apartheid, every decent country should be telling them to knock that shit off.
Ignoring the UN is fine if you’re the United States. But for Israel, that shit is going to catch up to them eventually.
If the US and Iran can broker a deal that gets them both back to talking to each other like grown up countries, and Israel continues to talk about killing Iranians because they’d prefer to kill Iranians, who, exactly are the terrorists?
Which country is the rogue nation?
Until we’re going to deal with reality 100% of the time, I have no interest in dealing with Israeli make-believe. They’re as bad as fucking neo-cons.
Describing an entire country as bigots is a problem for me, no matter which country you are talking about.
It doesn’t invite a decent conversation, which is what I am aiming for here.
I’m describing the Israeli government as warmongers and bigots.
Continuing to flout the UN about the 1967 borders by literally building on the wrong side of the borders is active aggression.
Not giving Palestinians citizenship and rights while forcing them to live as refugees in their own land is apartheid.
I’m not calling every John Smithstein in Israel a bigot, but official Israeli government policy calls for aggressive warfare and apartheid.
How can any decent government sit by and support that?
They can’t. It’s pretty much just the US government that supports them.
“successful foreign policy…by doing the opposite…”
Perhaps you remember the episode of Hogan’s Heroes in which an Allied bomb lands unexploded in the compound yard. As the two senior officers, it falls to Colonels Hogan and Klink to disarm it. After tension packed hours working to disable the explosive device, it comes down to cutting one of two wires: a red one or a white one.
Hogan: Which one should I cut, Colonel?
Klink (with typical irresolution): The…the…the red!!
Hogan moves cutters towards the red, then immediately snips the white. No explosion.
Klink: Hogan! I said the red!
Hogan: Yes, and I knew you couldn’t be right, Colonel.
So yes, Neocons like Bolton and Krystal and foreign fool “allies” like BiBi would be worth their weight in gold if only we had an elite leadership that knew what a secret weapon we possessed! Their analysis points towards failure like a compass points north, haha…
We should dump Israel, anyway. Supporting them was a mistake all the way back to Truman.
Netanyahu temporarily leads a country whose peoples have argueably seen some of the worst cases of their enemies trying to bring them to their knees. So I find it particularly distasteful that his idea of negotiation is to bring the people of Iran to their knees before he will grant them anything.
He can look no further than Israel’s stock exchange opening to a huge bump on the news, oil prices lowered. Here’s to a healthy, proud Iran and fingers crossed they abide by the pact’s 6 month carrot.
He’s going beyond playing the bad cop to Obama’s good cop.
The good cop to whom? People in the Middle East outside Israel?
Whether or not the Israeli’s have post-traumatic stress or some other mental illness is an open question. But there is little doubt that in large part the disorder is self-inflicted. Gorenberg’s use of the breakdown of the Oslo accords in this respect is disingenuous. The main reason Oslo failed is that the leading Israeli advocate for the accords was gunned down by a right-wing Israeli extremist.
Oh – and the idea that Iran “defying the UN” is a reason for sanctioning them is sweet. Israel is have defying the UN for decades.
Hypocrites….
I just can’t get my head around people claiming to “support israel” being against controlling Iran’s nuclear arsenal.
It goes beyond disloyalty, the State department and the White House are engaged in active conspiracy against Israel. And Likud, the settler blocs and their international financiers are engaged in a conspiracy against the United States. We aren’t very good allies to one another.
It’s not paranoia if the world is actually out to get you. The United States is just as likely to sanction Israel a year from now as it is Iran. The European Union already crossed that bridge.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.560054
Iran and Hezbollah are the glue that held Israel’s modern coalition of resistance and self-defense together, you take it away and they start running out of excuses for their colonialism.
As Jewish reader, my advice to Mr.Netanyahu: Don’t go away mad. Just go away.
Time for some fresh blood.
Yeah, that is what the Knesset should be saying to Bibi.
As a Jew, I would compare the views of American Jews toward Israel as roughly analogous to those of gun owners toward firearm restrictions.
Surveys demonstrate that a number of gun laws are supported by a majority even of NRA members. But this tends to be a silent majority, the sensible ones for whom there are other issues in politics (and in life). We hear from the very vocal minority, whose guns will only be pried from their cold, dead hands. It tends to warp the outside perception of what gun owners, as a group, really want.
Similarly, I think a majority of American Jews — or at least a plurality — feel as I do: we can have a very strong tie to Israel, and support the country, while feeling that the current government is absurd and harmful. I mean, heck, that’s how I felt about THIS country from 2000 – 2006. But we tend to hear from the very vocal minority, who share some of the post-traumatic stress disorder from which Jews as a whole suffer, and for whom Bibi’s position is the only one. But me, I can’t wait until he gets voted out of office. Someday.
Oh, and by the way, one more thing: as is exemplified by several of the comments above, Israel is a serious wedge issue among liberals. Even Jews like myself who hate the Netenyahu administration get very, very twitchy hearing stuff like that. Expressing disagreement is a important part of Jewish tradition, and I have no problem with people having different views. But somehow people forget that this issue is a visceral one for a certain small piece of the liberal coalition (I leave you all to decide how important a piece) and they forget to be respectful or thoughtful when expressing disagreement. This is a good way to alienate allies. Do so at your peril.
I just can’t think of anything more visceral that “I don’t want Israel to get nuked” and I would think that taking such a position, which Obama clearly has, by spending time on this deal, would get him all sorts of deep, visceral support from people who, you know, don’t want that.
I get there’s always been a weird dynamic here, but I don’t get why this isn’t utterly clear-cut – the deal includes some very good verification, better than some experts thought we’d ever see. If they don’t meet their side of the bargain, then we can do something else. Netenyahu, I expect him to be a teabagger idiot, but Schumer should damned well know better by now.
The question I have for dems in congress criticizing this deal is: do you want Iran to drop a nuke on Tel Aviv, or not? If not, then you are supporting this deal. End of story.
If Iran were to drop a nuke, do you think it would be more likely to target Tel Aviv or Riyadh?
From perspective of Iranian hardliners it’s likely that if Netanyahu & AIPAC were praising the interim deal it would not be helpful.
Moreover, Iranians, hardliners or otherwise, know the difference between ‘good cop/bad cop’ drills and real intransigence (and worse).
So, it’s likely a plus for Pres Rouhani & FM Zarif, the P5+1, #PBO, etc., that Netanyahu, AIPAC and idiots like Jennifer Rubin, John Bolton & Palin are behaving as they are.
That said, Netanyahu is only harming Israel and that’s been the case for quite a long time. The Israeli people should replace him and get on with establishing a two State relationship with the Palestinians – their long-term, stable destiny as a Jewish State is dependent on that outcome.
There is an element in Israel that seek to prolong any other issue in order to avoid dealing with with Palestinians on a stronger solution to their differences.
Sadly for the world, we’re on a clock. Demographics are shifting and this will not get any easier.
Netanyahu is drawing a lot of criticism not only from American Jews, but also from Israelis — to the extent that it can conceivably have serious political consequences in Israel. A lot of Israelis understand that major changes are afoot, that these changes hold promise for a better future, and that Netanyahu represents the proverbial pimple on the ass of progress.
In response to the Iran deal, new Labor Party leader Isaac Hertzog says of Bibi:
“He has harmed our relations with the US and hasn’t brought about an improved agreement” …
“He (Netanyahu) did the right thing by calling global attention to the Iranian issue, but he’s just missing the point now,” Herzog told Channel 10 on Monday.
“He has created a total lack of trust between us and Obama rather than a trusting relationship,” he added . “I think he’s generating unnecessary panic. Judgement day isn’t here yet.”
http://www.jpost.com/National-News/New-Labor-party-leader-Isaac-Herzog-criticizes-PM-Netanyahu-and-g
overnment-over-Iran-deal-332916
It’s always worth checking Richard Silverstein’s take on the latest developments in Israel:
http://www.richardsilverstein.com/2013/11/25/israels-least-bad-reporting-on-iran-deal/
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Also worthwhile to read …
○ Brandeis’ Shame: Severs Academic Ties with Palestinian University
○ Brandeis President’s Hypocrisy
○ Bard College Reaffirms Relationship with Al Quds University
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Israel has manifested bad diplomacy towards greatest ally United States during the Obama administration. Bibi Netanyahu knows it, will he suffer a backlash in domestic politics?
○ Europe’s highest court rejects preferential EU treatment for products made in Israeli-occupied Palestinian territory
○ EU’s Ashton in push to label Israel settler goods: report
○ US Congressmen Defending Israel’s Interest Jan. 20, 2013
○ Sarkozy Thinks Netanyahu a Liar, Obama Agrees Nov. 8, 2011
○ Sarkozy: Netanyahu’s Foot-dragging Is Unacceptable April 28, 2010
Cross-posted from my diary – Historic Moment: Iran Nuclear Talks to Succeed [plus update].
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As reported by Juan Cole …
○ Bill Kristol: Iran’s leaders a ‘gang of obscurantist thugs, anti-Semites, rapists, torturers, and murderers.’
○ Israeli Minister Bennett Warns of Islamic Terrorist Bomb in New York, Nuclear Missile Strike on Rome
○ Facebook Naftali Bennett and JPost article Naftali Bennett Out-Bibi-ing Bibi in DC
I have never really understand what supporting Israel gets us that we can’t get from the other powers in the region.
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○ Netanyahu’s Ex-Aide: Israel Can Stop Iran ‘For a Very Long Time’
Netanyahu has undercut President Obama at every opportunity even going so far as to silently endorse Mitt Romney. That is not the way that a “bad cop” works that strategy.
Israel for the past three decades has taken its US support and US subsidy for granted just as much as the US has taken the US-UK “special relationship” for granted.
Both of those relationships are now in deep trouble, and the US is not yet willing to change its tack.
The price for continued support of Israel by the US should be Israel’s participation in treaties limiting weapons of mass destruction — NPT and CWC. And an end to the violations of the Geneva Conventions in the occupied territories. Both of those should be fundamental baselines for future US foreign aid.
Issues of Palestinian sovereignty outside the 1967 borders and the end of the Gaza embargo flow from that.
The apartheid status of Palestinians within Israel is an internal matter that is equivalent to the apartheid in the segregated US South and in South Africa. More international pressure should be placed on Israel to address this, but there are human rights abuses in many other nations just as serious. When the US restores full voting rights throughout all of its states, it might have regained the moral authority to focus on the internal issues in other nations.
The time for Bibi Netanyahu’s free ride is over.
Might I humbly suggest that the real solution isn’t black or white but Has been suggested before, that the US LEAD rather than be pushed by internal (Jewish or Christian lobby groups) by playing the nationalism card.
i.e. That Israel and the US are different countries.
In reality all other ‘client nations’ get directed support and aid.
Finally acknowledging the reality that Israel’s failure to abide by the ’67 borders (settlements) is no longer in the interests of the US. It is ultimately behind much of middle east V USA angst.
Being against post 67 settlements private funding for them will be regarded as against US policy and banned like funding funding apartheid constructions/militia in SA or anywhere else.
Donations to Israel can only be to Internal relocation settlements.
A blind mole rat can see that without this stumbling block a detante solution to much of the US’s Middle East problems are solvable.
As part of that the US and RUSSIA Promises to support the existences of both PALESTINE and ISRAEL.
Also noting that Hamas and other external interfering forces must be expelled from Palestine. Palestine must actively control it’s nut jobs as Israel must actively reign in theirs. Handing over terrorists over to the other nation. Emphasis of US financing should be the internal relocation of settlements And monitoring of Israel’s nukes.
The emptied settlements and infrastructure should be handed over intact to a joint or UN committee to allocate the properties based on proof of dispossessed property within Israel etc
Existing businesses should remain at the owners discretion as a foreign business like anywhere else in the world.
Both countries should also pass and enforce laws banning extremist ( anti other side) policies.
The reality is that Israel’s paranoia induced fantasy of avoiding another “holocaust” is not guaranteed by Israel’s existence or having the bomb. Could suggest that it’s fanaticism merely invokes the same on the other side. It may hasten it’s mass demise.
The reality is that it’s paranoia is hobbling its development and source of true security.
Yes I’ve written books about fairies and such but that doesn’t change the reality of without something like this where compensation is seen to be paid and both sides get what they want this situation will continue to fester and progressively get worse.
I don’t think the “we stole it fair and square” rationale is going to go very far in the area outside the 1967 borders.
The entire logic behind pre-World War II Zionism was to seize the entire area between the Mediterranean and the Jordan River based on a historic land claim 2000 years old and a religious claim. The UN decision in 1947 was in part a matter of providing a homeland after the Holocaust but it was based in the Christian majority of the then members’ acceptance of the religious claim. And of the UK’s desire to wash itself of a guerrilla war in which the Zionists were carrying out a terror campaign.
The theft of land has been so sustained that Palestinians have only the right of return to negotiate with. Palestinians within the 1967 borders have their land stolen as surely as those outside.
Almost forty years of Likud rule have left no points of compromise. Any resolution will require a huge rollback of the Israeli position. Any resolution will either require ethnic relocation on both sides or leave sizeable minorities in place in both countries that will require minority rights protection. Any resolution will require Israel to provide compensation for what it is stolen. Any resolution will require dealing with the right of return of refugees and provide compensation to refugees for the property that they lost. Any resolution will allow Palestinians free access between the West Bank and Gaza and Israelis free access to the Negev. (How exactly does the political geography of that two-state solution work?)
The Confederate and Boer disease, in fact the disease of any superior political caste. Exactly right. But the relocation of the Wall continues.
The Likud is to the Mossad as the Republican Party is to the CIA. Depending on how you look at it one is a subset of the other, the political wing of a fascist party. There is a kind of mutual blackmail between the Republicans and the Likkud. All the hankypanky going back to Reagan has a lot of Likkud fingerprints: arms transfers, Iran-contra, Israeli agents turning up during the great cocaine importation.
At some point if Republicans and the Likkud diverged, the Likkud would be able to blackmail its way back into the Repubs’ hearts. But the biggest threat to Israel (and Saudi Wahabbis too) is lowering tensions with Iran. The Likkud/Mossad could blow the whistle on a lot of dirty history of the past 30 years, but that wouldn’t hurt Obama at all.
In fact, I can see a shift where the US, Russia and Iran begin to play well together, while our competitors in the West would look more like Saudi Arabia and Germany/EU, although Germany is losing fans throughout the Mediterranean. Is it Likuud or Likkud?
Lol His Agreement Disorder Anxiety is pure projection. He knows what his word is worth.