I really like Jon Lovett’s wit and writing style. He’s funny, and he has good ideas, too. I can’t really buy his argument, though, that we should all stop trying to tell each other to shut up. Don’t get me wrong, I understand what he’s saying and I get his point. But, there’s a reason that we strongly discourage racist language, and the same principle is now being applied to anti-gay language.
I know that you can find many places still today where people gather and say racist things, and everyone seems to be okay with it. But there are fewer of those places than there used to be. And, because of that, fewer people are exposed to that garbage and fewer people think it’s normal to be a racist. I prefer it this way, because I don’t want there to be “safe” places to be a racist. I don’t want racism to be “normal.” And, while I acknowledge that this taboo doesn’t eradicate racism and often pushes it just below the surface where you need dog ears to hear it, the overall effect is there are fewer racists.
Now, two minutes ago, it was “normal” to oppose gay marriage. Suddenly, people are turning around and saying that only bigots oppose gay marriage. Is this really so different from how the country turned on a dime to accept interracial marriage? Is it fair to switch standards so quickly?
The principle here is full equality and the right to love and live with whomever you choose. How does that stack up against Lovett’s argument?
The trouble, I think, is when ostracizing a viewpoint as “beyond the pale” becomes not an end but a means to an end; that by declaring something unsayable, we make it so. It makes me uncomfortable, even as I see the value of it. I for one would love homophobia to fully make it on that list, to get to the point where being against gay marriage is as vulgar and shameful as being against interracial marriage. But it isn’t. Maybe it will be. But it isn’t. And kicking a reality-show star off his reality show doesn’t make that less true. Win the argument; don’t declare the argument too offensive to be won.
A little earlier in his argument, Lovett said the we don’t want people to play it safe with their ideas. We don’t want them to be safe, he said. But my take is that he’s right, we don’t want people to feel like it’s safe to deny people full equality. And it’s not safe. Not anymore. So, how is that not progress?
It’s not like opposition to interracial marriage disappeared overnight. And it’s not like shame had nothing to do with getting our society to accept interracial marriage.
If I could tweak Lovett’s argument a little bit to make it more amenable, I’d say that we ought to try to be a little more charitable to each other. We don’t have to scream that someone is a bigot if they are a little behind the times. But we don’t have to shut up about it, either. As Lovett says, he’s not going to shut up and neither are the idiots. Neither are the people arguing for full equality.
In the end, you can’t get people to stop telling each other to shut up by telling people to shut up. If full equality is what’s right, people ought to fight for it, and make sure there is a price for trying to deny people what they ought to have.
Gay people weren’t hurting anyone, and they were forced to be silent for a very long time. If the ones who hurt them are now being forced to be silent, I feel no guilt.
Not tolerating slurs is in the same league with not tolerating cigarette smoke. It’s corrosive and it damages everyone who is exposed to it.
Martin, you left out the whole part about the arguments, or lack thereof. What is the argument for racial prejudice or actively working against gay marriage?
There aren’t any.
Is there any difference between this and evolution? Does the counter-“argument” deserve respect and the space to be made? No. Because it isn’t an argument. It’s an ideology that thinks it’s an argument.
Well, the biblical literalists like to trot out the fact that it was Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve…
They always forget about that part where the rich man has as much chance getting into heaven as he does passing through the eye of a needle.
I just assume they think all fatcats are ace needle-threaders.
As a camel passing through the eye of a needle.
Ol’ Jesus, total free-market capitalist that one.
Yet they cannot ‘splain where Cain and Abel’s wives came from ……….
Exactly. And therefore
what’s wrong with it? I mean ostracism as a social phenomenon, not First Amendment violations, which would not be tolerable, and when it’s about an increase in tolerance.
It’s not really as if “we” actually “declare” anything, it’s an evolutionary process, not a fiat; any time the political correctness prosecutors go too far “we”, the jury, nullify them. When a large enough group suddenly starts cheerfully agreeing, in the way it seems to have happened with marriage equality, it’s clearly not because some dictator has made it happen; it’s because the opposition has shown itself to be empty and the process has simply run its course.
Eric Holder tells Louie Gohmert “Good luck with your asparagus.”
But they guy lost his job over this. It’s all just very hard to justify. Now if we could get someone like Sheldon Adelson or the Koch brothers got fired or, better yet, sent into bankruptcy it would surely be worth it. They do real damage to the cause of human rights every day with their politics and funding of crazy right wing candidates.
So because Sheldon asshole is rich, he gets to say any despicable thing he wants without consequence. Free speech for super-rich… everyone else needs to watch their back.
he wasn’t a UPS driver, you know. He was the CEO of a company with a very specific culture.
Fair enough, so that begs the question… Should a truck driver get fired for opposing SSM? What if his coworkers or his boss find out during casual conversation he doesn’t like it?
The CEO dude wasn’t fired, was he?
Anyway, I say that a truck driver who is, for example, a member of the American Nazi Party, should not be fired unless his Nazism creates a hostile work environment for his co-workers. But the same people who oppose Eich’s firing (quitting?) tend to support the right of other employers to fire works ‘at will’–ie, for any or no reason.
If The Mom and Pop Store fired a cashier for getting a nosering, they’d be cool with that. But this? This is different.
Now let me ask you something: if the CEO of a tech-oriented nonprofit agency is discovered to have donated money to the Westboro Church, should he be fired? What if he donated money to the KKK? NAMBLA? The Muslim Brotherhood?
Everyone agrees that there’s some line CEOs and other highly visible employees should not cross. We only differ on the line. Some say the line is drunk and naked Facebook pictures. Some say it’s trying to enshrine second-class citizenship in the law. Some say it’s having worked as a lingerie model.
I guess I think we should stop firing people for stupid shit like this too. Capitalism is evil and we all sell out our values the moment we walk in the door of our workplace.
Sadly, that’s like saying ” all politicians are alike” and ignoring all the Shirley Chisholms, Barbara Jordans, Paul Wellstones, Barbara Lees, Sherrod Browns and Al Frankens.
It’s really the wrong thought experiment because you aren’t understanding why this guy felt like he needed to resign.
To generalize it, a CEO can’t be effective if his personal beliefs and political activities alienate his workforce, make it harder to recruit quality staff, anger clients, and arouse boycotts of the company’s products.
So, if the UPS guy started delivering packages smeared in dog shit, you’d fire him for alienating the customers. That’s approximately what this guy did by wading into the culture wars with his $1,000 donation.
If the UPS driver’s political activities haven’t caused the company a problem, there is no reason to fire him.
Think about it a different way. Instead of universalizing this guy’s resignation, ask yourself whether you really think that people should refrain from boycotting businesses run by people they think are morally reprehensible. I think the Koch Brothers own Bounty paper towels (in any case, they own a lot of similar products). Are you in the wrong to avoid that brand on principle?
If you’re not wrong, then neither were the people who said they wouldn’t use Firefox.
And if they’re not wrong, what is this debate really about?
I get why he resigned (not fired officially). I also get boycotts. I won’t shop at Walmart or Homedepot or that chicken place run by religious fanatics. Thanks for the reminder on koch products. I’ll have to make a list now.
And it really burns my behind that many gay people believe in the religions that serve as the basis for anti-gay hatred. The great hypocrite Andrew Sullivan comes to mind. So what do we do? I don’t blame mozilla for deciding they don’t want any part of this. I just wish our targets for harassment and vilification were more… worthy of the effort.
It’s Brawny paper towels. My apologies to Bounty.
Prejudice is one thing but using power to enforce prejudice is quite another. CEO’s have power and will their power to enforce their prejudice. Of course, he should be fired.
Yikes! You know, I’m just not afraid of right wing freaks anymore. They can’t hurt me.
Prejudice is one thing but using power to enforce prejudice is quite another. CEO’s have power and will use their power to enforce their prejudice. Of course, he should be fired.
“to get to the point where being against gay marriage is as vulgar and shameful as being against interracial marriage. But it isn’t. Maybe it will be. But it isn’t.”
Who says it isn’t?
I understood that to mean that culturally we are not to the point yet where being against gay marriages is widely considered as vulgar and shameful as being against interracial marriage.
I do not believe the writer is suggesting that his view is that it isn’t as vulgar or shameful – I believe he’s saying our culture is not there yet. Sadly, I would have to agree.
From my perspective, the minority of Americans who adamantly object to biracial marriage or gay marriage are essentially the same group of people. Prejudice is a mindset, & it is not very selective. One unjust prejudice is the same as another unjust prejudice.
So we have more people flaunting their right to be disrespectful of other people as something of a new cultural norm and opposing those who would insist that the older norm of dignity and respect be observed without hypocrisy.
“I don’t want to hear your bigotry.” would be a delightful precondition of social interaction.
Freedom used to mean the freedom not to be gratuitously disrespected as an instrument of prejudiced discrimination. Now it seems to mean the license for everyone to be the insult comic.
Bigots are like a specific batch of wine.
They start out slightly bitter, and over the years pick up more flavors, and eventually disappear altogether.
That gay marriage is becoming an issue that creates a “you’re either for it, or a bigot” shows just how much conservative trashbags are losing the culture war. At this point, in the abstract, every conservative victory is a Pyrrhic victory.
We need to point out bigots, but we need to pivot to economics (and when I say economics, I mean jobs). When the politically-naive voters see that only Republicans are bringing this shit up over and over, they know which party are bigots and which aren’t.
Democrats aren’t going to pick up any Republican/”centrist” bigots, but they might pick up people who’ve been helped by Obamacare, or who need a job and see Republicans always talking about abortion and gays.
Democrats in the limelight should respond with “you’re still harping on gay marriage? Is this all you think about, all the time”?, and then PIVOT onto jobs.
Every time.
I don’t know about that vino analogy….We got some old wines around that didn’t grown humane with age: Pat Robertson, Bill Bennet, Bell-Curve Murray, Phyliss Schlafly, Strom Thurman, Bill O”Reilly, Jesse Helms…
I don’t know about that vino analogy….We got some old wines around that didn’t grown human with age: Pat Robertson, Bill Bennet, Bell-Curve Murray, Phyliss Schlafly, Strom Thurman, Bill O”Reilly, Jesse Helms…
OT but not really:
Murray was supposed to conduct an interview with Salon (having agreed to it last week), but abruptly dropped out hours beforehand. In the interview’s place, here are some of his new book’s eight most memorable life tips:
Tramp stamps, racism and “icky” pronouns: 8 new life tips from “Bell Curve” author Charles Murray
Christ, the Atlantic has really been barking up this “free to be an asshole” tree. Next thing they’ll tell us that Creed is good.
I thought the essay was a little naive:
In politics and social justice, I think the bottom line is “take it easy, but take it.”
First, the conservatives may be showing their hands when they conclude that victory in blue states is over all victory. Culturally they must know they are the laggards pulling up the rear of every inevitable step forward in social progress. So when they whine that there are a bunch of sore winners, they know the writing is on the wall.
However, for millions living in those laggardly states, the victory is far from complete.
Secondly, the political wing that loves to rail on and on about how people should be accountable for themselves and their actions never want to be held accountable.
A conservative co-worker from Mass. used to argue against marriage equality and thought democracy was being subverted by a lack of a statewide referendum back in the early days of marriage equality in Mass. Well, a few weeks ago he posted some maudlin Face Book post about how his bed & breakfast hosted the most wonderful gay marriage. I have resisted the urge to call him and remind him of his past intolerance.