Was Malaysia MH-17 Downed by Su-25 Fighter Planes?

65 Comments

1. 

   Oui on August 11, 2014 at 12:23 am

   Pentagon sends communications experts to Kyiv …

   A small team of U.S. military experts has arrived in Kyiv to help investigate the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17, Pentagon Press Secretary John Kirby has said.

   A team of 12 people will provide support, in particular, in the areas of logistics and communications. They will also consult the U.S. Embassy in Ukraine on what kind of assistance the United States can render to Dutch, Malaysian and Australian experts in investigating the crash and collecting the remains.

   The team will operate from Kyiv, Kirby said.

   [Source: Kyiv Post and here]

   Kirby added that the team consists of experts “in communications, logistics, survey…a wide swathe of military occupational specialties” that will be helpful in Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 crash recovery operations.

   Ha, didn’t the State Dep’t tell Kirby the Australian and Dutch team have pulled out and have returned home as the Ukies advance to take over the crash site contrary to UNSC resolution?

   • 

     Marie2 on August 11, 2014 at 1:21 am

     Could be another facet to a cover-up attempt for the MH17 downing or they could be using the MH17 downing as a cover for deploying a wide swathe of military occupational specialties” to Kiev.

     I’d go with the latter as they seem to be confident that not releasing any hard data on the downing of MH17 for a very long time will make it go away until it’s mostly a forgotten, unexplained event.  Moscow could play a spoiler role but only if they have the goods on Kiev or pro-Kiev militias.  Kiev/US may have estimated the probability is low that Moscow’s intel capacity is sufficient.  

2. 

   Oui on August 11, 2014 at 2:41 am

   The West on the wrong path

   The Tagesspiegel: “Enough talk!” The FAZ: “Show strength”. The Süddeutsche Zeitung: “Now or never.” The Spiegel calls for an “End to cowardice”: “Putin’s web of lies, propaganda, and deception has been exposed. The wreckage of MH 17 is also the result of a crashed diplomacy.”

   Western politics and German media agree. Every reflexive string of accusations results in the same outcome: in no time allegations and counter-allegations become so entangled that the facts become almost completely obscured.

   Who deceived who first?

   Did it all start with the Russian invasion of the Crimean or did the West first promote the destabilization of the Ukraine? Does Russia want to expand into the West or NATO into the East? Or did maybe two world-powers meet at the same door in the middle of the night, driven by very similar intentions towards a defenseless third that now pays for the resulting quagmire with the first phases of a civil war?

   …
   But every act requires context. And the German context is that we are a society on probation which may not act as if violations of international law started with the events in the Crimean.

   Germany has waged war against its eastern neighbor twice in the past 100 years. The German soul, which we generally claim to be on the romantic side, showed its cruel side.

   Of course, we who came later can continue to proclaim our outrage against the ruthless Putin and appeal to international law against him, but the way things are this outrage should come with a slight blush of embarrassment. Or to use the words of Willy Brandt: “Claims to absolutes threaten man.”

   In the end, even the men who had succumbed to war fever in 1914 had to realize this. After the end of the war, the penitent issued a second call, this time to understanding between nations: “The civilized world became a war camp and battle field. It is time that a great tide of love replaces the devastating wave of hatred.”

   We should try to avoid the detour via the battle fields in the 21st century. History does not have to repeat itself. Maybe we can find a shortcut.

   ○ Richard Nixon’s Detente and Willy Brandt’s Ostpolitik:
      The Politics and Economic Diplomacy of Engaging the East [large pdf]

   Read Frank Schnittger’s diary – Russia EU Rapprochement: Cui Bono?.

3. 

   Oui on August 11, 2014 at 10:11 am

   Not giving straight answers only makes the matter murkier …

   Malaysia wants the ‘missing’ Ukrainian ATC tapes

   KUALA LUMPUR (New Straits Times) Aug. 8, 2014 – Ukraine has denied that its State Security Service (SBU) had seized the air-to-ground transmission tapes between its air traffic controllers and Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 on the day the jetliner was shot down.

   Its ambassador to Malaysia Ihor Humennyi, in an exclusive interview with the New Straits Times, said that reports alleging that the SBU had seized the recordings had not been independently verified or confirmed by Kiev.

   “There is no proof or any evidence that the tapes were confiscated by the SBU. I only read this in the newspapers.”

   ((youtube VFEBJV-PsiA))

   Interview Ukrainian Ambassador Ihor Humennyi on MH17: Status of Ukrainian tapes still in question.

   Almost immediately after the shootdown, several news agencies, including the British Broadcasting Corporation, carried reports saying that Ukraine’s SBU security service had confiscated recordings of conversations between Ukrainian air traffic control officers and the crew of the doomed airliner.

   If indeed the SBU had not seized the tapes, then where are the air-to-ground communications tapes between MH17 and the ATC? When asked this, Humennyi said he did not have the answers.

   Asked if the tapes had been handed over to the investigators, Humennyi said: “We don’t have any information that it had not been given to the investigation team or that it was not received by the (team of international) investigators.”

   Humennyi said that if a formal request was made by Malaysia or the international investigation team, Ukraine would extend its cooperation. At one point, Humennyi seemed to question the significance of the ATC tapes, saying that “it is just the same as the flight data and cockpit voice recorders”.

   Address of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine on Tragic Death of People as a Result of a Terrorist Act over the Territory of Ukraine – July 22, 2014

   ○ Data Cockpit Voice Recorder MH17 Downloaded – July 24, 2014
   ○ Preliminary report on MH17 investigations out next week, says Malysian Transport Minister

4. 

   Oui on August 11, 2014 at 10:14 am

   No time spend at the crash site where under Dutch leadership dozens of forensic experts of the Recovery Mission MH-17 searched during six days. At this moment the MH-17 mission is reporting in a meeting with commission of Dutch parliament.

   Dutch Safety Board have left the Ukraine

   (nos.nl) Aug. 11, 2014 – The DSB (OvV) did not succeed in recent weeks to be part of the investigation at the crash site. “There werer teams on stand-by in Soledar (FOB) and Kharkiv, but the location was deemed too dangerous,” according to the spokesperson.

   There were about 25 international investigators in the Ukraine the past weeks to collect data frpm the air traffic controller, radar images and collect (satellite) photo’s. Also the black boxes provided information. “At this moment the data will be compared and further analyzed.”

   This week the Recovery Team of forensic experts and military police (marechausee) left the Ukraine who searched for and returned remains and personal property of the victims. The security at the crash site of flight MH-17 has deteriorated. The experts could cope under these circumstances to do their professional job.

    « click for more info
   Dutch Safety Board - Onderzoeksraad (OvV) twitter @Onderzoeksraad

   DSB: Cause air crash investigation MH17 continues from The Hague and press release in pdf [Dutch only]

   ○ The Dutch Have Gone Mad [More Mad]
   ○ Shrapnel Damage of Cockpit MH-17 Devastating
   ○ Who Mislaid the Malaysian MH-17 Black Boxes?
   ○ Wretched Statement by Ms Clinton On Crash Malaysia Flight 017

   From my diary – Dutch PM Rutte Abruptly Calls-off MH-17 Recovery Mission.
   | by Oui Wed Aug 6th, 2014 at 12:29:27 PM PDT |

5. 

   Oui on August 11, 2014 at 10:35 am

   US analysts conclude MH17 downed by aircraft

   KUALA LUMPUR (New Straits Times) –  Intelligence analysts in the United States had already concluded that Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 was shot down by an air-to-air missile, and that the Ukrainian government had something to do with it.

   This corroborates an emerging theory postulated by local investigators that the Boeing 777-200 was crippled by an air-to-air missile and finished off with cannon fire from a fighter that had been shadowing it as it plummeted to earth.

   In a damning report dated Aug 3, headlined “Flight 17 Shoot-Down Scenario Shifts“, Associated Press reporter Robert Parry said “some US intelligence sources had concluded that the rebels and Russia were likely not at fault and that it appears Ukrainian government forces were to blame”.

   This new revelation was posted on GlobalResearch, an independent research and media organisation.

   In a statement released by the Ukrainian embassy on Tuesday, Kiev denied that its fighters were airborne during the time MH17 was shot down. [Statement U.S. Embassy in Kiev – Flight MH17 was likely downed by a SA-11 surface-to-air missile]

   Flight MH17 unlikely shot down by fighter jets: Hishammuddin

   BERA (NST Online) –  Defence Minister Datuk Seri Hishammuddin Hussein today denied reports in the social media that Malaysia Airlines (MAS) flight MH17 was shot down by fighter jets. He said intelligence and evidence gathered from the fragments of the ill-fated aircraft clearly showed it was shot down by missiles that were launched to the air from the ground.

   “Based on military intelligence and evidence from a portion of fragments found, it is not likely the bullets were used from air to air but from surface to air. “Whether these were owned by Ukraine or the rebels who supplied by Russia. the bullets must have come from BUK System and this matter cannot be denied by Europe, Nato or Russia,” he told reporters after officiating the Bera Umno’s Wanita, Youth and Puteri wing division meeting here today.

   Also present were Agriculture and Agro-based Minister Datuk Seri Ismail Sabri, who is also Bera Umno division chief.  

   NST Online: See video of crash site with parts of the fusilage filmed – August 4, 2014
   …
   However, a foreign military expert said based on the aircraft fragments that were burnt and full of small and big gaps at the mid portion, it was shot with a missile from the ground to the air. Hishammuddin said he was personally confident that flight MH17 was shot with a BUK missile based on his experience and knowledge as a defence minister.

   Starting from Bera today, the government, particularly the Umno leadership, would use the hashtag #justiceforMH17 from #prayforMH17 that was previously used.

   ○ First MH17 crash report ‘in weeks,’ say Dutch
   ○ MFA of Ukraine: The situation in the Eastern regions of #Ukraine (August 11, 2014; 12:00)

6. 

   Marie2 on August 11, 2014 at 12:10 pm

   This Guardian article Dutch push Ukraine plane disaster inquiries seemed confusing to me:

   At the top:

   Dutch officials said Monday they will push ahead with both an investigation into the cause of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 disaster and a criminal investigation into the persons responsible,…

   Further down:

   The Dutch Safety Board, which is leading an international investigation into the cause of the crash, said in a statement it won’t “assign blame or responsibility” in its conclusions.

   Would it be correct to liken the “Dutch Safety Board” to the US FAA, and the criminal investigation is being handled by something like the US FBI/Justice Dept?

   Hmm: Gerard Bouman told a parliamentary commission Monday he believes a search of the crash area conducted shortly after the disaster by 800 local Ukrainians was more effective than initial reports suggested. Don’t expect to see any thank yous and sorry for all the negative accusations extended to those local Ukrainians.

   • 

     Oui on August 11, 2014 at 1:03 pm

     I listened to the presentation of the Recovery Mission MH-17 leaders before the parliamentary commission. I was astonished how poorly informed nearly all members of Dutch parliament were. Some questions were illiterate in stupidity and there was no focus on essentials during the brief session that was televised.

     Many thanks to all involved and the preparations made before traveling to Kharkiv. Indeed, much of the search had been completed by locals under proper leadership of a medical team and rescuers belonging to first responders of fire stations. As I have written before, some 800 volunteers were in place. The Dutch had little or no knowledge before arriving in Kharkiv. It took the team 14 days before arrival at the MH-17 wreckage. They stayed a mere 6 days and spend just 20 hours on the search. The advancing Ukrainian army [and mercenaries paid by oligarchs] made travel to Grabove quite difficult until the Dutch called it quits.

     Special appreciation for the OSCE SMM mission in the district of Donetsk! They did the mediation with the separatists of Donetsk.

     There was some fingerpointing towards the Kiev junta for not following through on the agreement signed with FM Timmermans and Julie Jacobs of Australia. No serious repurcussions except an open question how many weeks of delay this would cause before the team can return to the crash site! No one in the chamber referred to the UN Security Council resolution calling for all parties involved to cease hostilities in the region of the MH-17 crash site!

     Only a single member, Harry van Bommel (SP), had sufficient knowledge of the dossier to ask the pertinent questions. Well done!  

     The first mission is the recovery and identification team which was heard today by the commission.

     The second mission is by the Dutch Safety Board (OvV) to determine the cause of the crash. They were in Kharkiv but did NOT visit the site, therefore no evidence gathering!

     The third investigation is an international criminal investigation led by prosecutors under coordination of Eurojust, the European version of the Justice Department. This team will attempt to determine a person, oersons, group or country responsible for downing Malasia flight MH-17.

     One of the most renowned lawyers Geert-Jan Knoops, already says it will be impossible to determine in court who is responsible. Evidence lying out in the field for weeks is by definition contaminated in the court of law. Knoops was involved in the case of the Lockerbie crash tried in Scottish Court in Zeist, The Netherlands. Jan. 31, 2001: Lockerbie Verdict

7. 

   Oui on August 11, 2014 at 4:00 pm

   Sorry, but “mad man” Rutte has changed his tune, doesn’t talk about ‘criminal’ Putin much. Dutch PM Mark Rutte, loved by all neocon posturing nations around the globe since the MH-17 crash, has a new slogan to prove his determination:

   “We are stopping now, but are not stopping.”

   From today’s press release, Prime Minister Mark Rutte:

   No mention of the agreement signed in Kiev by Timmermans and Bishop with Podhorenko and Yats. Nothing about the unanimous U.N. Security Council Resolution to expediate the MH-17 crash investigation.

   “Graag wil ik hier mijn dank uitspreken aan de Australische experts, die samen met Nederlandse en Maleisische collega’s en de OVSE [OSCE SMM Mission report Aug. 6 – last day international recovery mission … silence] zulk zwaar werk in zulke moeilijke omstandigheden hebben verricht. Hetzelfde geldt voor de Australiërs die ook vandaag weer in Hilversum aan het werk zijn om de slachtoffers te identificeren.

   Ik zei het eerder: we stoppen nu, maar we stoppen niet. Premier Abbott en ik delen de ambitie om terug te keren naar de crashsite, zodra er weer zicht is dat we onder veilige omstandigheden daar dit belangrijke werk kunnen doen.”

   ○ Eindhoven: Tony Abbott in tribute to Australian defence and police personnel in search of MH-17 victims

   • 

     Demian on August 12, 2014 at 3:08 am

     Desperate MH17 “Intelligence” Spin by Ukraine Secret Service: Pro-Russian Rebels had Targeted a Russian Passenger Plane. “But Shot Down Flight MH17 by Mistake”

     The official MH17 narrative still prevails: the “pro-Russian rebels” shot down Malaysian airlines MH17 with a Buk missile system provided by Russia.

     In a new and rather unusual twist, however,  according to the Kiev regime, the Donetsk militia did not intend to shoot down Malaysian airlines MH17. What the “pro-Russian rebels” were aiming at was a Russian Aeroflot passenger plane.

     The MH17 was shot down “by mistake” according to an official statement by the head of Ukraine’s Secret Service, Valentyn Nalyvaichenko (Ukraine News Service, August 7, 2014)

     • 

       Oui on August 12, 2014 at 3:38 am

       Thanks for the many great contributions on this topic!

       An old junta recept, providing cover for one’s narrative. If plan A fails, we have plan B, etc.
       Digging their own hole steadfast deeper. Watching closely as coming hours pass …

       I read that article but lost the source. Minor edit to your recent post @MoA:

       “Western response to MH17 in her his blog home.”

       Doesn’t matter a 51/49 chance it would have been the other way around. 🙂

       • 

         Demian on August 12, 2014 at 4:46 am

         That’s so odd! Sorry.

         My only excuse is that I made that mistake because this blog is so woman friendly.

         I have made the opposite mistake with someone at FDL.

         Not that it matters, but I always choose strongly gendered names as my handles, to prevent any confusion.

         The more time I spend in cyberspace, the more experience I obtain that you really can’t tell what a person’s gender is from the sound of their voice in cyberspace.

         In any case, a person’s nationality matters to me much more than their sex when it comes to how seriously I am going to take them LOL.

     • 

       Marie2 on August 12, 2014 at 11:26 am

       This new Kiev narrative isn’t going to fly — it begs very easy questions:

       In its authoritative report, the British news tabloid fails to beg the important question: why on earth would pro-Russian rebels who are at war with the Kiev regime shoot down a Russian passenger plane AFL-2074 allegedly with a view to harnessing Russia’s support?

       What’s more, according to SBU Chief Valentyn Nalyvaichenko’s  statement, Moscow was helping the pro-Russian rebels in their alleged false flag op to shoot down Russia’s Aeroflot plane by providing them with a Buk missile system, which had been discretely smuggled across the border to the Donesk region of Eastern Ukraine. The Aeroflot plane was slated to be “shot down over territory controlled by Ukrainian government troops”:
       …

       Also smacks of desperation on the part of the Kiev.

   • 

     Oui on August 12, 2014 at 4:09 pm

     .
     ○ Transcript Briefing Session Before Security Commissions Dutch parliament – August 11, 2014 [Dutch – doc]
     ○ Presentation Police Commissioner Bouman – satellite photo’s position major sections of Boeing 777 fusilage [quite interesting]

8. 

   Oui on August 11, 2014 at 4:51 pm

   Today I’ve noticed a drastic change in the rhetoric of Dutch PM Rutte during his conversation and press statement on the visit of Australia’s PM Abbott. Not a single word over Russia’s Putin, nor any aggression to the culprits who are responsible for taking down Malaysian passenger jet flight MH-17, now 25 days ago. Australia/Dutch joint mission at the crash site was aborted, the experts have returned home.

   Now, with president Obama at Martha’s Vineyard, he consents to a humanitarian mission into East Ukraine and the major cities of Luhansk and Donetsk. Yet today harsh criticism was heard from both the junta in Kiev and outgoing NATO SG Rasmussen. Kiev urged the one million citizens of Luhansk to leave the city! Rasmussin threatened Russia not to invade Ukraine under the umbrella of humanitarina  aid in coordination with the International Red Cross.

   What’s the deal here, do these gentlemen share a secret we don’t know about … yet?

   Amazing coordination between the U.S., Australia, The Netherlands and Russia. The breaking news is lagging in Kiev and at NATO HQ in Brussels. What does Cameron have to say …

   Please note: it was President Obama who called Ukrainian counterpart Poroshenko to deliver the message the humanitarian mission under auspices of the IRC should proceed. Not VP Biden or John Kerry or Vicky Nuland delivering a covert message to Ambassador Pyatt. Just saying.

   • 

     Marie2 on August 11, 2014 at 7:21 pm

     If this isn’t merely a US “good cop” day (always a possibility) and is a real shift, it could mean one of two things or both.  1) That the sanctions are biting the EU harder than expected and they demanded that DC tone it down.  2) There is enough evidence on what downed MH17 to eliminate Russia and separatists rebels as suspects.  Too many possibilities to bother speculating as to why it appears that NATO and Kiev are on a different page from DC, etc.  

9. 

   Oui on August 11, 2014 at 7:00 pm

   Russia to send humanitarian convoy into Ukraine in spite of warnings
   | Alec Luhn in Moscow | Monday 11 August 2014 18.25 BST |

   (The Guardian) –  Russia is sending a humanitarian convoy into Ukraine in cooperation with Red Cross, the Kremlin has announced. It was not immediately clear if Russia had reached agreement with Ukraine on the issue, or if it had decided to move unilaterally as Ukrainian government forces have been closing in on a few remaining rebel strongholds.

   [Source via Kyiv Post]

   Yep, the president’s PR service had to do a lot of cut and paste to change the sequence, putting Ukraine first as taking the initiative. LOL

   Ukraine, Red Cross to lead humanitarian effort to Luhansk Oblast (UPDATE)
   | By Christopher J. Miller | Aug. 11, 2014, 9:28 p.m. |

   DONETSK, Ukraine (Kyiv Post) – Ukraine and the International Committee of the Red Cross will lead a humanitarian convoy supported by the European Union, the United States and Russia to the country’s conflict-torn eastern city of Luhansk, according to Ukraine’s Foreign Ministry.

   “Due to the complex humanitarian and social situation in the Donbas, Ukraine President Poroshenko took the initiative to send to Luhansk Oblast international humanitarian aid missions,” the ministry said in an official statement on Aug. 11 [20:07 pm]. “In addition to goods, prepared by the Ukrainian side, the mission will also include an international component and, in particular, humanitarian assistance provided by the International Committee of the Red Cross, the United States, the EU and Russia.”

   “Logistical support of the international humanitarian relief mission, including its delivery and distribution, will be provided by the International Committee of the Red Cross and Ukraine,” the Ministry added.

   ICRC statement by Laurent Corbaz, head of operations for Europe and Central Asia.

   “The document also stipulates, among other matters, that prior to beginning of the operation, the ICRC should receive without undue delay from the authorities of the Russian Federation all necessary details concerning the aid, including the volume and type of items, and requirements for transport and storage. All parties must also guarantee the security of ICRC staff and vehicles, for the entire duration of the operation, in view of the fact that the organization does not accept armed escorts.”

   • 

     Marie2 on August 11, 2014 at 7:39 pm

     Beginning with The Telegraph article on Sunday (did they get the message first), the 90 degree (if not 180) shift has been remarkably swift.  Now very curious as to what prompted this, but it is welcome.

     Interesting that The Guardian chose to lead with “Russia to send convoys…”  May mean something or could merely reflect that the report was filed by its Moscow based correspondent.

10. 

    Oui on August 12, 2014 at 5:03 am

    .
    Air-to-air missile Vympel R-60 NATO code AA-8 Aphid

    Guidance: Infra-red (heat-seeking)
    Warhead: 9.4 kg (20.8lb) annular blast-fragmentation

    Spec sheet courtesy Kancho’s Paper Wings.

    AIM-9 Sidewinder Short Range Air-to-Air Missile

    The AIM-9 Sidewinder is a supersonic, heat-seeking, air-to-air missile. It has a high-explosive warhead and a passive infrared guidance system. It is used by a variety of Western fixed-wing combat aircraft and helicopters, and has been adopted for surface-to-air use as the Chaparral missile.

    Wikipedia: Sidewinder AIM-9L (‘Lima’)

    I’m certain from the fragmentation pattern evidenced in the parts of the fusilage on the wreckage, a conclusion can be drawn which type of warhead caused the Boeing-777 flight MH-17 crash. The Buk missile with proximity fuze is quite different from an air-to-air heat-seeking R-60 warhead. The Sidewinder targets an engine, destroys it causing immediate DANGER alarms in the cockpit. An engine lost and decompression of the cabine and cockpit may still not be fatal. The Buk missile was used against Antonov transport planes [AN-12 turboprop] and Su fighter jets of the Ukrainina Air Force.  At a much lower altitude 21,300 feet (pressurized Antonov), eight men managed to jump to safety by parachute, two died in crash.  

    FAS: Chapter 13 – Warheads

    13.4.2.2 Fragment Flight. The fragments of a warhead travel outward in a nearly perpendicular direction to the surface of its casing (for a cylindrical warhead there is a 7- to 10-degree lead angle). Figure 13-7 portrays a typical fragmentation pattern. The tail and nose spray are frequently referred to separately as the “forty-five degree cone,” which is an area of less dense fragmentation. If this payload were to be detonated in flight, the dense side spray would have a slight forward thrust with an increased velocity equal to missile flight velocity.

    The angle of the side spray in figure 13-7 would be defined as the beam width of this fragmenting payload. Fragment beam width is defined as the angle covered by a useful density of fragments. Beam width is a function of warhead shape and the placement of the detonator(s) in the explosive charge.

    The latest air target warheads are designed to emit a nar-row beam of high-velocity fragments. This type of warhead, called an annular Blast Fragmentation warhead (ABF) [U.S. patent 3490374 A], has a fragmentation pattern that propagates out in the form of a ring with tremendous destructive potential. A newer type of fragmentation warhead is the Selectively Aimable Warhead (SAW). This “smart” warhead is designed to aim its fragment density at the target. This is accomplished by the fuzing system telling the warhead where the target is located and causing it to detonate so as to maximize the energy density on the target.

    13.4.2.3 Fragment Material. The damage produced by a fragment with a certain velocity depends upon the mass of the fragment. It is therefore necessary to know the approximate distribution of mass for the fragments large enough to cause damage. Mass dis-tribution of payload fragments is determined by means of a static detonation in which the fragments are caught in sand pits. In naturally fragmenting payloads where no attempt to control frag-ment size and number is made, fragmentation may randomly vary from fine, dust-like particles to large pieces. Modern warheads use scored casings and precut fragments to ensure a large damage volume. See figures 13-8 and 13-9.

    ○ The Sidewinder Story: The Evolution of the AIM-9 Missile

11. 

    Oui on August 12, 2014 at 9:23 am

    Apparently being a non-aligned nation, Malaysia has succeeded to talk directly to the Donbass of Donetsk rebel leadership and make arrangements to handover the two black boxes and the retrieval of bodies and remains from the MA-17 crash site in Grabove. The media in Malaysia publish in English and Malay, so I tried to brush up on my knowledge of Indonesian (tiny). This publication stood out in the New Straits Times of Wednesday August 6, in paper version only AFAIK.

    I have spend some time digging into the Malaysian writings about the plane crash as the nation is severely effected, just as The Netherlands and Australia.

    ○ Polis Diraja Malaysia (Royal Malaysia Police)
    ○ Kementerian Dalam Negeri (KDN)

    I was quite happy, not really surprised, to find this interesting article. The three Malaysian experts are NOT low key persons!  

    MH17: Reports submitted to Dutch, IGP heads to Netherlands on July 26, 2014 in Malaysia

    KIEV – The Malaysian team investigating the crash of the Malaysia Airlines (MAS) Flight MH17 aircraft at a site in Torez, eastern Ukraine has submitted its reports to the Dutch authorities heading the investigation. MAS director of engineering and maintenance Azhari Mohd Dahlan, 53, who is one of three Malaysians conducting investigations into the crash in the Donetsk region, told Bernama: “We are relieved.”

     « click for more info
    Malaysian air crash investigators at the crash site of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17, near the village of Hrabove (Grabovo), Donetsk region

    “All the investigation reports have been given to the Dutch as they head the investigation,” he said upon arrival in Kiev, about 800km from Torez by train Friday morning.

    He, however, did not want to comment further on the four-day investigation carried out by him and the other two Malaysian investigators comprising Department of Civil Aviation (DCA) Senior Assistant Director Captain Philip Joseph Selvaraju, 42, a former pilot, and DCA Senior Assistant Director Mohd Naemy Fahmy Mustapa, 38.

    Azhari and the 133 Malaysian special team members, led by Khairil Hilmi Mokhtar, who is also National Security Council (MKN) Cross Border Management Division principal assistant secretary, were scheduled to depart for Kuala Lumpur Friday noon (local time).

    …
    Recording not tampered with

    Upon arrival at KLIA from Amsterdam today, Transport Minister Datuk Seri Liow Tiong Lai said a hearing process from the cockpit and flight path recorder had already been conducted by the International investigation team on the two black boxes retrieved from the plane.

    He said there had not been any evident tampering with the recording and that it is now up to the investigation team to document the retrieved data.

    “We did not find any sign that the recording had been tampered with. We could hear the content.”

    ○ First posted here at Sundaily – MH17: Reports submitted to Dutch, IGP heads to Netherlands
      | Posted on 25 July 2014 - 07:56pm | Last updated on 26 July 2014 - 09:57am  |

12. 

    Demian on August 12, 2014 at 6:08 pm

    The missiles used by Su-25 jets (actually, I believe they are ground support planes, not fighters) are heat seeking, which means that they detonate near engines.

    Thus, if an Su-25 downed MH17, at least one of its engines should be heavily damaged.

    Not only haven’t I seen any pictures of the engines (which are the most rugged parts of a jet), I haven’t even seen anyone mention looking for them, much less finding them.

    • 

      Marie2 on August 12, 2014 at 6:35 pm

      There are of pictures on the internet of the engines.  One from The Guardian.  They were engulfed in flames near or when they landed.  (The crazies are claiming that they aren’t Boeing 777 engines; but they also claim that Sandy Hook massacre and the Boston Marathon bombing were fake and there were no dead children or injured people.)

      • 

        Demian on August 12, 2014 at 6:46 pm

        Thanks. That one seems only to have been damaged by ground impact. I don’t see any damage from shrapnel. I believe that if MH17 was shot down by a jet firing a missile (and possibly then firing at the ceckpit with machine guns), one of the engines should show shrapnel damage.

        This is simply a matter of curiosity on my part, since the case for a jet shooting down MH17 is alrleady pretty strong

        (I had seen that photo btw. I just forgot, since I wasn’t interested in the engines at the time.)

        • 

          Marie2 on August 12, 2014 at 10:16 pm

          I have to defer totally to experts on this.  Would guess that locals and/or separatists took a lot of photos and passed them on to authorities, including those in Russia, and would expect the investigators that made their way to the site, inspected the engines.

    • 

      Errol on August 12, 2014 at 10:53 pm

      I assume you saw the Akkermans photos, but just in case

      https:/secure.flickr.com/photos/jeroenakkermans

      https:/secure.flickr.com/photos/jeroenakkermans/with/14705660266

    • 

      Errol on August 12, 2014 at 10:55 pm

      https:/secure.flickr.com/photos/jeroenakkermans/with/14705660266

      https:/secure.flickr.com/photos/jeroenakkermans

      not sure why link doesnt work

      • 

        Demian on August 12, 2014 at 11:56 pm

        Thanks. No, I hadn’t seen them. They’re pretty depressing, even though there are no bodies.

        The only thing I get out of them is that, as has already been observed, the only place you see damage from weapons fire is in the cockpit. Unfortunately, there seems to be no picture of any engines.

        As Marie2 says, we will have to wait for some kind of report from experts. The whole matter is very delicate. Western countries will no doubt want to falsify the official report, but it is not clear that Malaysia is going to go along with that, and it was a Malaysian plane, so Malaysia has some say in the matter.

        • 

          Arthur Gilroy on August 13, 2014 at 12:42 am

          Western countries will no doubt want to falsify the official report, but it is not clear that Malaysia is going to go along with that.

          Don’t be so sure.

          Money talks, nobody walks.

          Mafia wisdom.

          As above, so below.

          Sufi wisdom.

          Money talks, Malaysia don’t walk either.

          AG’s corollary

          As above, so below?

          Also…

          As below, so above.

          Bet on it.

          Watch.

          AG

        • 

          Errol on August 13, 2014 at 11:45 am

          depressing, yes, also to me “stark” is the word that comes to mind.

      • 

        Indianadem on August 13, 2014 at 11:48 pm

        “not sure why link doesnt work”

        Try deleting the s from https.

        • 

          Errol on August 14, 2014 at 12:48 am

          thanks, Indianadem!!!

13. 

    Oui on August 13, 2014 at 12:11 am

    Shocking Analysis of the `Shooting Down’ of Malaysian MH17 by Peter Haisenko, pilot Condor DC-10

    Entry and exit impact holes of projectiles in the cockpit area

    You can download this photo as a PDF in good resolution. This is necessary, because that will allow you understand what I am describing here. The facts speak clear and loud and are beyond the realm of speculation: The cockpit shows traces of shelling! You can see the entry and exit holes. The edge of a portion of the holes is bent inwards. These are the smaller holes, round and clean, showing the entry points most likeley that of a 30 millimeter caliber projectile. The edge of the other, the larger and slightly frayed exit holes showing shreds of metal pointing produced by the same caliber projectiles. Moreover, it is evident that at these exit holes of the outer layer of the double aluminum reinforced structure are shredded or bent – outwardly! Furthermore, minor cuts can be seen, all bent outward, which indicate that shrapnel had forcefull exited through the outer skin from the inside of the cockpit. The open rivets are are also bent outward.

     « click for hiigh resolution photo
    Cockpit window details

    Tank destroying mix of ammunition

    If we now consider the armament of a typical SU 25 we learn this: It is equipped with a double-barreled 30-mm gun, type GSh-302 / AO-17A, equipped with: a 250 round magazine of anti-tank incendiary shells and splinter-explosive shells (dum-dum), arranged in alternating order.

    Bullet riddled cockpit and grazed wing

    The largely intact fragments of the rear sections broke in mid air at the weaker points of contstruction most likely under extreme internal air pressure. The images of the widely scattered field of debris and the brutally damaged segment of cockpit fit like hand in glove. Furthermore, a wing segment shows traces of a grazing shot, which in direct extension leads to the cockpit.

    Maximum flight altitude Su-25

    The handbook “Flugzeuge der Welt” by W. Green (1984), a standard work which essentially quotes the facts of the military “Janes Manuals” (also used to be NATO reference), already 1984 determined the maximum flight altitude of SU 25 (SU 25 MK, export version) with 10,670 meters (page 208 f.). The performance of the SU 25 has been upgraded since that time.

    Here a link to the statement of a Canadian OSCE-participant, who observed evidence on parts of the wreckage, that the aircraft had been hit by rounds of heavy machine-gun-fire.

    CBC News interviews an OSCE investigator who monitors the crash site of flight MH17. In that interview he states, that till now there was no evidence that a missile had hit the plane. Instead the OSCE had recovered three pieces of fuselage which had been “popmarked” by heavy machine gun fire. This statement is made at timemark 6:10 minutes. [Publication on July 31, 2014]

    +++++++

    Police rapport in dossier with satellite images scattered debris field where large sections were located
    ○ Presentation Police Commissioner Bouman – satellite photo’s position major sections of Boeing 777 fuselage [pdf – quite interesting]

    ○ Malaysian Airlines MH17. Investigation Analysis (ISRTM)
    • 

      Oui on August 13, 2014 at 3:05 am

      Beacause of low-altitude operation, very vulnerable for MANPADS as was seen in the Afghan War. That’s the reason the Soviets designed the Su-39, a two seater for more versatile missions on the battlefield.

      Su-25 is designed for low-altitude close air aupport to suppress enemy armor and anti-aircraft weapons
      June 18, 2012 by John M. Guilfoil

      Sukhoi’s Su-25 is a versatile, ugly, tough attack jet similar in purpose to the American A-10 Thunderbolt.

      The Su-25 is not a standoff, long-range missile truck. It is designed for low-altitude suppression of enemy armor and anti-aircraft weapons, and it has been an effective and dependable workhorse of many air forces for more than 30 years. More than 1,000 have been built, and few have ever been confirmed to have crashed. (Many have been lost in combat, of course, and a Russian Air Force Su-25 was accidentally shot down by its wingman near Vladivostok in 2008.)

      The Su-25 is meant to travel slowly through a battlefield to engage ground targets with guns, rockets, bombs and missiles at close range from 11 external hardpoints. It has heavily armored and can withstand direct hits while remaining operational.

      …
      The Su-25 did not have any combat success during the Persian Gulf War, with the plane’s only combat action coming when two were shot down quickly by American F-15Cs. By 1998 Iraq was still reported to have 12 Su-25s. Three Su-25K export craft were seen in a demonstration over Baghdad in 2002, but the Su-25 has not been used by Iraq since the 2003 invasion by the American-led coalition.

      Today, the Frogfoot remains in active service in no fewer than 20 air forces including the Peruvian Air Force, which has conducted successful drug interdictions with the Su-25, and the Ukrainian Air Force, which operates dozens of Su-25s.

      SU-25 design & development

      Su-25 (Su-28) Frogfoot Close Air Support Aircraft, Russia

       « click for more info
      Sukhoi Su-25 Frogfoot - The Soviet Union's Tank-Buster

      The Su-25 and Su-28 single-seat, close-support aircraft, known by the Nato reporting name Frogfoot, is manufactured by the Sukhoi Design Bureau Joint Stock Company, based in Moscow, and the Novosibirsk Aircraft Production Association of Novosibirsk, Russia.

      The Su-25 is designed to defeat small mobile and stationary ground targets and to engage low-speed air targets at the forward edge and in the nearest tactical and operational depth.

      Cockpit

      The aircraft has an all-welded, 24mm titanium alloy cockpit with transparent windscreen armour block to protect the pilot. It is equipped with a single K-36L Zvezda ejection seat.

      Weapons

      The wings have ten pylons for carrying a range of air-to-air and air-to-ground weapon systems selected for the mission. Air-to-ground missiles include Kh-23 (Nato codename AS-7 Kerry), Kh-25ML (AS-10 Karen) and Kh-29l (AS-14 Kedge). The air-to-air missiles carried on the smaller outboard pylons are the R-3S (AA-2D Atoll) and the R-60 (AA-8 Aphid).

      The aircraft can be fitted with UB-32A pods for 57mm S-5 rockets, B-8M1 pods for 80mm S-8 rockets, S-24 240mm guided rockets and S-25 330mm guided rockets.

      The Su-25 can be armed with 350kg-670kg laser-guided bombs, 500kg incendiary devices and cluster bombs.

      The aircraft’s twin-barrel gun, the 30mm AO-17A, is installed in the underside of the fuselage on the port side. The gun is armed with 250 rounds of ammunition and is capable of firing at a burst rate of 3,000 rounds a minute. SPPU-22 gun pods can also be installed on the underwing pylons. The pods carry the GSh-23 23mm twin-barrel guns, each with 260 rounds of ammunition.

      Targeting

      The aircraft is equipped with an integrated navigation and aiming system, including ASP-17 BTs-8 gun / bomb sight with an AKS-750s camera installed in the nose. The nose also houses a Klyon PS laser ranger and target designator, manufactured by the Urals Optical and Mechanical Plant (YOM3).

      Warfare.ru: U-25 Frogfoot Close support/ground attack – Ceiling, m: 10’000

      • 

        Oui on August 14, 2014 at 9:39 am

        March 2010 Ukraine’s MoD passed 2 versions Russian build Su-25 M1 into service, modernized Su25 equipped with updated devices with improved fighting performance by state-owned МиГремонт [MiGremont enterprise, Zaporozhye]. A contract for upgrading additional 40 Su-25 by 2012 done by Ukrainian MoD’s Aircraft Repair Plants. Test flights performed on the UAF State Testing Center area ‘Chauda.’

        The Georgian Su-25 KM ‘Scorpion’ aircraft, upgraded in joint venture Tbilisi Aircraft Manufacturing with Israel’s Elbit Systems, performed superior in 2008 war with Russia.

        ○ MiGremont, Zaporozhye State Aviation Repair Factory
        ○ Sukhoi Su-25 ‘Frogfoot’ Fighter/Bomber

    • 

      kafkananda on August 13, 2014 at 9:11 pm

      Totally awesome job done here in this post, Oui! This puts it all together, so to speak.

      This is a youtube link to an interview with the Canadian OSCE person who was on the ground at the crash site very early on. Go to the ~6:00 minute mark for the discussion of what the cause of the crash might have been.

      This diary should be Front Paged!

14. 

    Demian on August 13, 2014 at 12:17 am

    VoR: Investigation into flight MH17 could take “many years”

    an early report on the plane’s black boxes, which are being investigated in Britain, is set to be released next Monday. The black boxes may be able to verify whether the plane was hit by a missile. …

    “I think there are going to be multiple investigations here. So the aircraft accident investigators may be able to go as far as to confirm that it was shot down by a missile. But then understanding who was responsible for that, or what the events were in the run up to that – that’s a much more complicated investigation more likely to be undertaken by the police or security services. We need to caution ourselves that the aircraft investigation may look into nothing more than what happened to the aircraft – not necessarily looking into why.”

    Despite considerable obstacles though, the investigations team is set to release a preliminary report within a month.

    It will be interesting to see whether the preliminary report will take a position on whether a surface-to-air missile or an air-to-air missile hit the plane.

15. 

    Oui on August 13, 2014 at 6:15 pm

    Breakup MH17 Explained (4.00 / 2)  (Liked by JakeS and Blinse)

     [ET Moderation Technology^TM]

    We have already had Haisenko.

    You are adding nothing by this (yet again huge copy-paste job) post, but to insinuate that Haisenko’s claims are enlightening.

    Poring over selected photographs in order to demonstrate “facts” was exactly the kind of source of endless dispute (in that case, re 9/11) that made us decide on ET not to admit conspiracy theories in our field of discussion. That has been constant ET policy for years, as shown in the Editorial Guidelines.

    Please stop posting CT, or the posts will be removed.  

    by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Aug 13th, 2014 at 02:03:50 AM PDT

    I provided the extra insight in reading comprehension and technical performance of the Su-25 Frogfoot.

    If you read his article carefully, you will find Haisenko does not base his technical specs on Wikipedia, he does mention the data has been altered.

    Peter Haisenko based his information on two sources:

    “If you go to the trouble of broadening your knowledge by questioning a specialist book, you’ll get completely different information: the maximum flight altitude of the SU 25 is 14,600 meters.
    Check here: http://www.fliegerweb.com/militaer/flugzeuge/lexikon.php?show=lexikon-50“

    and  the handbook “Flugzeuge der Welt” by W. Green (1984).

    I see the data in the flieger web lexicon has been altered this month, via WayBackMachine archive I find the following:

    Per August 2:
    Dienstgipfelhöhe: 14’600 m

    Altered as follows …
    Per August 6: Dienstgipfelhöhe: Maximale Einsatzhöhe: 7.500m, Maximal erreichte Höhe (flight test) 14.600 m

    I have secured images with a screenshot.

    My post linked the Haidenko info as follows, as usual I add links to support the argument. You see I already deduced the data of 14,600 m would be during a test flight. The alteration proved my assumption as correct.

    Maximum flight altitude Su-25

    The handbook “Flugzeuge der Welt” by W. Green (1984) , a standard work which essentially quotes the facts of the military “Janes Manuals” (also used to be NATO reference), already 1984 determined the maximum flight altitude of SU 25 (SU 25 MK, export version) with 10,670 meters (page 208 f.).

    Warfare.ru: U-25 Frogfoot close air support/ground attack – Ceiling, 10’000 meter

    German’s flieger web lexicon states maximum flight altitude reached is 14,600 meters [test flight].

    As you see, I have added a third source warfare.ru and have thoroughly provided information of the operational design of the Su-25 Frogfoot.

    • 

      Demian on August 13, 2014 at 7:29 pm

      I can’t believe what an Atlanticist, Russophobic trash heap EuroTrib has become.

      And many people there – like Frank Schnittger, who has a recent diary about MH17 – have the same delusion that the mainstream Western press is also under, that such a thing as a Ukrainian nation still exists.

      It seems that no one there is aware that the western Ukraine is completely zombified there with a manic Russophobia.

      • 

        Colman on August 15, 2014 at 4:41 am

        Thanks for your concern.

        It’s almost amazing how partisans always accuse us of being for the other side because we’re not on their side.

        Atlanticist may be the funniest accusation I’ve heard yet, so credit for that.

        • 

          Oui on August 15, 2014 at 5:45 am

          No need to make the issue bigger than it is. That’s the color of editors to a blog, it’s their prerogative and keeps their pleasure in blogging and work they do. You can’t deny the openness here @Booman is greater than @ET.

          Markedly, a blog that is most critical on the subject at hand, shooting down of Malaysian passenger jet, and any controversy of complot theories is Aviation Herald. The editor has accepted my posts.

          To censor me @ET is quite outrageous, unless you decide that the topic MH-17 is banned fron any and all sources on your blog, also the “news items” of pure copy/paste. Western media are quite susceptible to state propaganda as we have witnessed in all recent conflicts/wars.

          To ban dissent is [ blank  ], you think of it yourself.

          Yes, I pose tough questions by threat of war, see my diaries about the Ghouta gas attacks and the sniper killings in the streets of Kiev. I’m quite distressed by the neocons of the Atlantic Council, NATO, White House, Amb. Geoffrey Pyatt, European think-tanks and people like Radek Sikorski. I won’t be silenced, I just move on.

        • 

          Oui on August 15, 2014 at 5:52 am

          It’s a bit worse than I thought. You come over here to my diary and don’t contribute any content. Than you leave by troll rating me? What a bs Colman, now i’m really disappointed. You’ve fallen off the high pedestal I had thought of you. Quite troubling.

          At the pond we show respect for dissent.

        • 

          Oui on August 15, 2014 at 5:56 am

          You are also disrespectful to the bloggers and lurkers of BooMan Tribune. I wouldn’t be able to write the great number of diaries if I didn’t get support from many, many readers.

          See my diaries with “Recommends” and the “4’s” to my comments.

      • 

        Oui on August 15, 2014 at 6:03 am

        @Demian

        How is the british saying? The proof is in the pudding.

        Pls don’t hijack the MH-17 thread by adding to this bs from Colman, the evidence is there for all to see.

    • 

      Oui on August 13, 2014 at 8:28 pm

      .
      I checked the cached webpages Su-25 of flugzeuginfo.net from August 6, 2011 through October 2013, this spec has not been altered.

      Suchoi / Sukhoi Su-25 Fighter / Bomber

      The Sukhoi Su-25 is a twin-engined single-seat ground-attack jet aircraft developed by the Soviet Design Bureau Sukhoi.

       « click for more info
      Photo: Max Bryansky (foxbat.ru)

      Crew 1

      Propulsion 2 Turbojet Engines
      Engine Model Tumanski / Tumansky R-195Sn
      Engine Power (each) 44,2 kN 9937 lbf

      Speed   950 km/h  513 kts  590 mph
      Service Ceiling   10.000 m  32.808 ft
      Range   900 km  486 NM  559 mi.

      Empty Weight   9.500 kg  20.944 lbs
      max. Takeoff Weight   20.500 kg  45.194 lbs

      Data is based on info weblink Sukhoi Company (JSC)

      Info from my earlier source:

      Oxygen system
      The oxygen system is intended for supplying oxygen to pilot at the heights more than 2000 m both in the cab and with the ejection. Oxygen system includes two subsystems: main (onboard) and oxygen system of ejection seat. Onboard system is fed of four balloons with a capacity of 5 l each (storage pressure 15 mpa)), placed on the wall of the niche of the nose strut of chassis. The mixture of air and oxygen will be given at the heights from 2000 to 7000 m the oxygen mask of pilot, above 7000 m – pure oxygen. Emergency oxygen system BKO-EVE ensures the supply of oxygen during three minutes after ejection, system is included by hand or automatically.

      • 

        Demian on August 13, 2014 at 9:29 pm

        Yes, Uke propagandists were making much of the operational ceiling of the SU-25. They are reflexive liars: when faced with something that points to barbarism on the part of the their junta, say the first confabulation that comes into their head, as Russophobic as possible. In a discussion of the apparent bullet holes in the MH17 cockpit at Wikipedia, one “editor” said that the rebels could have put those bullet holes in.

        This is a main reason why I think Novorossiya will win: a culture which is built on non-stop lying is not likely to be very functional, when it comes to war, as to anything else.

        BTW, EuroTrib should be renamed to “Atlanticist Tribune”.

        • 

          Oui on August 14, 2014 at 2:39 am

          Atlanticists closed down comments. Just in case, saved it for eternity. LOL

          That’s why my preference lies here at the pond, receive just enough support to keep going.

    • 

      Demian on August 14, 2014 at 2:34 am

      Comments have been disabled for your diary there. Do you have any idea of what they are afraid of? That’s just crazy.

      afew says that the position that the downing of MH17 was a Uke false flag op is “a CT”, and so is not to be discussed at EuroTrib. But how is this an outlandish theory at all? (1) It is perfectly analogous to the Ghouta false flag op. (2) In the only briefing that US intelligence officials ever gave to reporters about MH17, this is what they had to say:

      In terms of who fired the missile, “we don’t know a name, we don’t know a rank and we’re not even 100 percent sure of a nationality,” one official said, adding at another point, “There is not going to be a Perry Mason moment here.”

      Since US intelligence admits that it has no idea of who shot the plane down, why does EuroTrib make it out of bounds to consider the possibility that Kiev did it?

16. 

    on August 14, 2014 at 11:36 pm

    Just as a warning. Don’t trust Michael Bociurkiw to tell the truth. He’s got a long history of writing for the Ukrainian Weekly, which has been in the pocket of the OUN/B.

    http://spitfirelist.com/news/who-is-michael-aka-mykhailo-bociurkiw/

17. 

    Arthur Gilroy on August 15, 2014 at 11:11 am

    regarding freedom of information matters.

    I spend zero time on EuroTrib. Why? it has always just…smelled funny…to me. So it goes. Any faintest whiff of disKosianness sends me running. I was there when dKos tanked. It was nasty. Now this, here on BT. Not only on BT, but aimed at Oui, undoubtedly the hardest working, most fact-based contributor to this site. i don’t believe that I have ever megatroll-rated anyone…maybe once…but I did so today. I also added  a “4” to every troll-rated post on this thread. BTers…stand up for your freedom! I have come to disagree with much of what Booman currently believes and thus with much of what many people on this site believe as well, but Booman preserves the freedom of BT with great consistency and courage. When you see an attempt at censorship-by-troll rating, fight back. Speak up! Real freedom of information is becoming more and more rare in this world today, replaced by megaglitz, megahype, security state-produced fear and sheer (dis)information overload. Freedom of information is even more important than freedom of speech, because if you cannot safely or freely say what you believe to be true without massive, lockstep resistance then where are you, really?

    You know where you are? You’re in Orwell’s 1984 as reinterpreted by the disKossians is where. Bet on it. Instead of having your face thrust into a cage of rats, it’s your mind, your time and ultimately your self-respect that are eventually eaten by ravenous, lockstep trolls. I have seen a couple of sites go down in this way. Don’t let it happen here.

    Please.

    Thank you and goodnight.

    Later…

    AG

    • 

      Oui on August 15, 2014 at 12:26 pm

      Thanks AG!

      As Always.

      Bet on it!

      

      C  U   L A T E R

      • 

        Arthur Gilroy on August 16, 2014 at 11:55 am

        I know him!!!

        His son radicalized me at the age of 7 or so. Taught me how to read, think and fight, too.

        Keep on keepin’ on, Oui.

        AG

    • 

      Oui on August 15, 2014 at 12:47 pm

      His rampage was bigger than I thought … shocking.

       « click for more info
      "Take Your Choice---Do you want a man who, having raised the stars and stripes in our new possessions, will maintain them with dignity; or a man who will cut down "Old Glory" and make us the laughing stock of the world?" Victor Gillam, artist. (Library of Congress, LC-USZC4-5391) (Censorship historic magazines)

    • 

      kafkananda on August 15, 2014 at 4:53 pm

      You are SO correct, AG.

      The work that Oui has put up here at the pond, day in and day out, year in and year out!, is staggering. He has opened up a world of sane, sensitive and sincere insight that is all too lacking in the American discourse. Once we step out of the mediazio box of propaganda, new networks and sources of credible people show up. But the hardest part is bringing all that info back to the frog pond in an intelligible and accessible format that presents the pertinent facts, while freeing people to judge for themselves. Very Empowering! And Oui does that over and over again.

      Where else on the American oriented blogs would one go to find this type of comprehensive reporting? Any suggestions?

      Well, my suggestion is that Oui be given a Frog Pond Front Page presence called ‘Foreign Desk’ where these important issues of peace and the new types of war could be examined. A big part of the battle for truth and justice has been the quick shooting down of the many false flag provocations of late. A place on the front page here at BooMan would give an added boost that propel these subjects to more main stream prominence. The time may not be ready yet for this move. There are issues to be dealt with yet concerning practical political considerations. But when a superb post such as this one by Oui shows up on the front page, I’ll know we are considerably closer to the world I think we want to see.

18. 

    on August 15, 2014 at 4:00 pm

    I want to know why western reporters don’t have cameras on their phones. They can apparently tweet and text, and they can even take pictures of Russian tanks inside Russia, but where is that armored column of flaming Russian invaders that the glorious Ukrainian army stopped overnight? No pictures of it in the NY Times, or on any website I’ve come across.

    Perhaps the Russian tanks use stealth technology and so they are invisible.

19. 

    Oui on August 15, 2014 at 5:19 pm

    Aviation Herald: Malaysia B772 near Donetsk on Jul 17th 2014, aircraft was shot down
    [Posts are subject to moderation and some may have been removed]

     
    MIG ?
    By Terence on Friday, Aug. 15th 2014 12:28Z

    There is so much smoke and mirrors. Why should the potential fighter jet have been an SU-25? A question to experts: Could it have been a much more modern fighter like a MIG? Is the radar profile probably similar ?

     
    to Simon Hradecky, comparision
    By Gyro on Friday, Aug. 15th 2014 10:59Z

    Alphajet:
    Take-off weight 8.000 kg, thrust 2×14,12 kN, service ceiling 14.630 m

    A-10:
    Take-off weight 14.846 kg, thrust 2×40,32 kN, service ceiling 13.636 m

    Su-25:
    Take-off weight 14.440 kg, thrust 2×40,17 kN, service ceiling 7.000 m

    So you are still believing in Sukhoi themselves and their technical documentation?

     
    SU-25 engine Soyuz/Tumansky R-195
    By oui on Friday, Aug. 15th 2014 08:40Z

    Engine performance 2x Soyuz/Tumansky R-195 Turbojet – re: SKYbrary Eurocontrol.
    Initial climb (to 5000 ft)  IAS 180 kts  ROC 1200 ft/min
    Climb (to FL150)  IAS 260 kts  ROC 6000ft/min
    Cruise (ceiling FL220)  350 kt  Mach 0.75  Range 800NM

     « click for more info
    Engine ferformance Su-25 with  Tumansky R-195 Turbojet

     
    @Hamburger – discrepancies Su-25 basic / Su-25 K
    By oui on Friday, Aug. 15th 2014 07:45Z

    Soviet Union’s Su-25 basic is with advanced avionics gear not sold in model Su-25 K for export. See previous post Ukraine’s Su-25 M1 upgraded version. I found tech specs on one sheet with both models and split in 7km and 10km ceiling [?]. Handbook “Flugzeuge der Welt” by W. Green (1984)  p. 208 and flugzeuginfo Suchoi Su-25 ‘Frogfoot’ fighter bomber.

     
    cvr fdr
    By rtfm on Thursday, Aug. 14th 2014 20:20Z

    are there already any results from the specialists in farnborough? normally this kind of first examination wont take that long…

     
    [ blank ]
    By Hamburger on Thursday, Aug. 14th 2014 19:46Z

    @ Siegfried
    The US statements (Jul18 * Jul21) are war-mongering and demonizing, depicted here like facts. Without any evidence up till now. I’m interested in neutral aviation news
    -What is the service ceiling of Igor Girkin’s AN-26?
    -What is telling us about the flighpath on this sad day and the days before?
    -EvaApkyojPQ vid shows chaff, why?
    -How streetfighters can handle BUK? -> guidance radar, fire control radar and commando unit, each housed in its own vehicle, thus takes accorcing to the textbooks at least 3 vehicles.

     
    [ blank ]
    By Hamburger on Thursday, Aug. 14th 2014 19:41Z

    @ Simon
    I don’t trust the Sukhoi website, there’s too much military secrecy in this field.
    I want to hear it from a SU-25 fighter pilot (therefore i’m on your site)

20. 

    Oui on August 15, 2014 at 5:24 pm

    Georgia’s  Su-25 KM Scorpion with avionics from Elbit Systems – see cockpit instruments

     « click for more info
    Israel's Elbit Systems installed modern avionics in Su-25 KM (Tsiblisi, Georgia)

    BTW, this afternoon I took a screenshot of a full view of cockpit instrumentarium and have it on my computer HD. Tonight the image is deleted from Internet. See also blog military photos with description of Su-25 KM.

     
    Locklin on science
    Can the Su-25 intercept and shoot down a 777?

    Excellent site, more expertise in posts and there is a frank and open discussion. I won’t return to Aviation Herald!

    Remember how the Serbs shot down a F-117 stealth? Same principle could have been used, one doesn’t chase after its target when you are too slow like the Su-25 Frogfoot. One lies in ambush and let the target jet catch up to within striking distance. A simple matter of physics of the plane and trajectory calculus.  Well done Kiev.

    Compare it with highway traffic and an acceleration lane, two Su-25 fighter jets intercepting a Boeing 777 flight MH-17  on a predestined flight path at 33,000 feet [FL330]. Request by Malaysian pilot to accent to 35,000 feet was denied by Ukrainian ATC.

21. 

    Oui on August 16, 2014 at 7:51 pm

    .
    Rebel leader says 1,200 Russian fighters, weapons en route to eastern Ukraine (VIDEO) | Kyiv Post
    Aug. 16, 2014, 6:09 p.m. | Ukraine — by Christopher J. Miller

    Press statement made in a YouTube publication by НОВОРОССИЯ TV  [novorossia tv]

    On their website a message reads their hosting has been interrupted.

    Same info is on twitter here

    Domain registration info indicates expiration per 2014-08-14T12:34:01Z

    NOTICE The expiration date displayed in this record is the date the
    registrar's sponsorship of the domain name registration in the registry is
    currently set to expire. This date does not necessarily reflect the
    expiration date of the domain name registrant's agreement with the
    sponsoring registrar.

    Site was registered to an organization in Lugansk [now under control of Ukarinian forces?]
    Name: Vladimir Konstantinov
    Organisation: TOVARISTVO Z OBMEZHENOYU VDPOVDALNSTYU "NOVOROSSIA TV"
    Hosting in: Moscow, RU

    On this date, WayBackMachine archive has webpage saved – here.

    ○ Ukraine-Konflikt: Wenn Hysterie brandgefährlich wird | Spiegel Online

    • 

      Oui on August 17, 2014 at 5:12 am

      @demian

      My intended message wasn’t the content of the article, I was looking how and when it was sourced. This propaganda piece originates in Kyiv and is picked up by the western prime  media distributors. Via search engines one can see how it is spread, indeed includes the Business Insider.

      The main reason it is sold as “evidence” by the British media because it was “sourced” by pro-Russian rebel forces and its new leader Alexander Zakharchenko.  The distribution of articles started on August 16 based on a YouTube video (not linked by British msm) source as НОВОРОССИЯ TV  [novorossia tv]. Production date of the YouTobe video was August 15. The website of novorossia TV was discontinued as per August 14, 2014.

      Here @MoA I can’t post more links, that is why I posted the second link to my post @BooMan with all the linked sources.

      “On August 9, Prime Minister of the self-proclaimed Donetsk Republic Alexander Zakharchenko announced the republic was ready for a ceasefire not to allow spread of the humanitarian catastrophe in Donbass. His statement was published on the dnr.today website.”

      The Kiev junta doesn’t want a cease-fire but a total military victory, that’s why that piece of trash was distributed, to up the war rhetoric.

22. 

    Demian on August 16, 2014 at 8:46 pm

    Pravda: Boeing-777 was downed by Ukrainian MiG-29, Romanian expert says

    the Romanian expert believes that it was not a Ukrainian Su-25, as the plane could not reach the altitude of 10,300 meters and strike the Boeing due to the poor level of training of Ukrainian flight personnel and technical imperfection of old Su-25. Vasilescu indicates that radars show Su-25 identically to MiG-29 fighter jet, as the planes have identical reflective surface area. “The altitude limit for MiG-29 is 18,013 meters, so the height, at which the Malaysian plane was flying – 10,300 meters – was easy to achieve.” “The Su-25 does not have enough acceleration due to its maximum speed of 975 kilometers per hour, so it can not catch up with a Boeing-777, and follow it at a distance of 58 kilometers at a speed of 900 kilometers per hour and at an altitude of ten thousand meters, keeping the velocity of about 200-300 meters per second, to attack it from on-board weapons. A Mig-29 has two high thrust engines, allowing it to develop the speed of 2000 kilometers per hour. The fleet of the Ukrainian Air Force has fighter aircraft MiG-29 that are capable of intercepting Boeing-777. The fighters are based near Kiev and in Ivano-Frankivsk,” the expert concludes.

    Vasilescu added that MiG-29 of the Ukrainian army are armed with GSh-301, 30 millimeter gun, with a rate of 1,500 rounds per minute. The gun was loaded with 150 shells containing tungsten alloy. “These shells go through targets, leaving traces of perfectly circular shape. They do not explode inside the cockpit, they are not incendiary, but can kill the crew and destroy the cockpit, which can be seen in the presence of holes with their edges opening outside on the opposite wall.

    As people have repeatedly observed on the Web, an SU-25 was not the best plane to use for this “mission”. Yes, one can advance arguments to make an SU-25 being used plausible, but as far as I know, the only reason an SU-25 is being discussed is that that is what that Russian officer suggested in the Russian military press briefing.

    FWIW, At this point, the only things I am reasonably sure of are (1) no Buk missile was fired; (2) the cockpit was demolished by machine gun/cannon fire.

    • 

      Marie2 on August 16, 2014 at 9:47 pm

      … Vasilescu indicates that radars show Su-25 identically to MiG-29 fighter jet, as the planes have identical reflective surface area. …

      Wonder why all those bloggers and armchair investigators that claim to have expertise in fighter jet capabilities haven’t mentioned this before and have instead jumped through many hoops to make questionable claims that an SU-25 is perfectly capable of downing a 777 at altitude.  (Am sure Russia has reasons for not showing all its cards — but sure leads to ordinary people disliking those in power and the games they play.)

      Now does anyone outside the Ukrainian Air Force know what regiments have MiG-29’s and who commands those regiments?  May never see any answers to those questions.  

    • 

      Oui on August 17, 2014 at 4:46 am

      On mainland these aircraft had been mothballed. Later to be reassembled and to fly, participated in bombing raids above Donetsk in May, Russian RIA released an article on April 7 and a MIG-29 was purportedly downed by rebels reported on August 7.

      Alastair James Berry placed his post on Facebook Mikojan-Goerevitsj MiG-29. Here are some tidbits of information …

      Ukraine Puts Mothballed Mig-29 Fighter Jets Back in Servicesee also   Voice of Russia and Defense Talk.
      By RIA Novosti on Monday, April 7th, 2014

      Several mothballed Mikoyan Mig-29 Fulcrum fourth-generation fighter jets were returned to combat service in western Ukraine, the country’s Defense Ministry said on Friday.

      “Specialists of our team have already returned several planes to service,” the ministry quoted an unnamed commander of an Air Force unit near Ivano-Frankivsk as saying. “We are now conducting test flights. Soon, more mothballed fighter jets will take off again.”

      Defense Minister Ihor Tenyukh said in his report to the president that the checks revealed “unsatisfactory” condition of the armed forces.

      He said that out of 507 combat planes and 121 attack helicopters, only 15 percent are serviceable. Air Force crews lack proper training and only 10 percent of them are capable of performing combat tasks.

      Ukrainian defense minister announces withdrawal of Ukrainian ships from Crimea
      Interfax-Ukraine | 19:23 11.04.2014

      Ukraine is beginning to return its warships from Crimea back into its Navy, Acting Defense Minister Mykhailo Koval said. “The Pryluky ship is withdrawing today – it is moving on its own, and we’ll pull two more supply vessels into Mykolaiv,” Koval said at a briefing on Friday.

      The ships Slavutych, Ternopil, Cherkasy and Chernihiv are getting ready to move under their own power, he said. The submarine Zaporizhia is already with the Ukrainian Armed Forces. In all, there were 70 Ukrainian Navy ships in Crimea, including 21 warships and 49 support vessels. Several ships will be scrapped in Crimea.

      As for other armaments, a Kamov Ka-29 and a Mikoyan MiG-29 aircraft were removed by a special trailer on April 10. “We have agreed that one plane will fly out, and two will be dismantled and removed,” the acting minister said.

      Ukraine jets bomb gunmen-seized Donetsk airport – reports
      Interfax-Ukraine | 17:29 26.05.2014

      First of all, a Sukhoi Su-25 jet delivered warning strikes to force the gunmen to surrender. “Panic began in the militants’ ranks. After that, a Mikoyan MiG-29 attacked places where terrorists had built up pockets of resistance.” Selezniov said.

      Later, he said a strike from a combat helicopter had destroyed a surface-to-air missile system at the airport that was being used by the militants. He denied reports that the pro-Russian forces had shot down a Ukrainian helicopter.

      Ukraine starts restoring southern air bases
      Interfax-Ukraine |17:41 21.07.2014

      The Ukrainian Air Forces have started restoring three former military airfields in the country’s southern region: Martynivka (Voznesensk, Mykolaiv region), Buyalyk and Chervonohlynske (both in Odessa region).

      Currently, the runways on the airfields are being covered with Dyckerhoff monolithic concrete, the Ukrainian Military Portal said on Monday.

      In the previous years, the airfield in the Mykolaiv region [Nikolaev AB] hosted the 642nd Mikoyan MiG-29 fighter aircraft regiment, the Buyalyk – Sukhoi Su-24MR reconnaissance aircraft {NATO designation Fencer A thru D, also an interceptor] from the 511th reconnaissance aviation regiment, and the Chervonohlynske – the 737th fighter aviation regiment.

       « click to enlarge map
      Source Global Security Ukraine Air Force Bases

      A military commandant’s office already reopened at the Kanatove air base (Kirovohrad region) in June.

      Militants down Ukrainian MiG-29 in Donetsk region, crew ejects
      Aug. 7, 2014, 9:15 p.m. | Ukraine -- by Interfax-Ukraine |

      Members of illegal armed groups shot down a Ukrainian MiG-29 military aircraft in Donetsk region on Aug. 8 [?] evening, ATO spokesman Vladyslav Selezniov told Interfax-Ukraine.

      ○ Ukrainian Air Force Inventory
      ○ List of Ukrainian aircraft losses during the 2014 unrest

      I found a more likely culprit that couls have been involved, perhaps someone Russian speaking should listen to the original taped broadcast of Russia’s presentation of their military about the downed Malaysian flight MH-17.

      ○ Crimea two fighters Su 27 Ukrainian Air Force raised in the air and ready to attack
      ○ Russian Su-27 in Dogfight with a Georgian Su-25  [This surprises me as the Su-27 easily outmaneuveres the Su-25 according to the specs – Oui]

      • 

        Oui on August 17, 2014 at 4:48 am

        Don't look at me, this was just another quick cut & paste job!

23. 

    Oui on August 21, 2014 at 4:17 pm

    The Right Sektor barbarians with support from European parliamentarians and US members of Congress. The protesters throwing molotov cocktails against an unarmed police in Kiev ended in the subsequent killing of 75 citizens/policemen on February 20, 2014.

    The Right Sektor barbarians, Oligarch mercenaries, Kiev armed forces and Ukrainian AF have indiscriminantly bombed villages, towns and cities in East-Ukraine. Over 2,000 killed and a grave humanitarian disaster is in process. Where is the western outcry today?

    The White House and western capitals were pounding fists and calling for intervention when the same happened in Cairo, Egypt and Damascus, Syria. I remember clearly how Hillary Clinton and Susan Rice remained silent when the first car bombs struck civilian areas in Damascus and Aleppo. For me that was a clear sign Sunni extremists had entered the battle scene. The White House approved because the PNAC neocon policy called for regime change. The same happened in Ukraine in 2004, Tsiblisi, Georgia in 2008 and again in Kiev this year.

    The Ghouta gas attack was clearly a false flag incident, the same covert acts are taking place under US auspicien in the Ukraine. Do some due diligence on ambassador Pyatt, ambassador Ford and Vicky Nuland.

24. 

    Oui on August 21, 2014 at 5:56 pm

    As the official Dutch Safety Board remained silent, their website was in Dutch only (until today) and the team of experts stayed in Kiev and Kharkiv, they did not travel to the crash site …  

    The following countries have contributed (to a greater or lesser extent) to the international investigation team into the crash of flight MH17: Ukraine, Malaysia, Australia, Russia, the United Kingdom, the United States, Germany, France, Italy and Indonesia. The ICAO and the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) also contributed to the investigation as organisations. The leadership of the investigation rests with the Dutch Safety Board, which will publish both the preliminary and final report. The countries that have a formal role as participants in the investigation under the ICAO agreement will be given access to the draft reports, and may provide feedback.  The country leading the investigation may offer other countries access to the draft reports at its discretion.

     « click for more info
    The rebels handed the flight-data recorders over to Malaysian officials at a ceremony in Donetsk/Pic:AP

    The Ukrainian armed forces did not heed the Security Council resolution, instead pushed forward with an advance on Donetsk and thereby blocking the crash site from any further investigation, see my earlier diaries. The Dutch chickened out, on August 11 as PM Abbott paid a visit to Dutch PM Mark Rutte in The Hague/Eindhoven.

    Earlier I saw a fleury of communications/contacts with Ukraine officials on July 28, 2014. Remember the non-aligned Malaysia had 133 pair of boots on the ground at the crash site and handed their report to the Dutch on Sat. July 26. As we have seen, studying the evidence of the wreckage it can be determined whether a SAM or an air-to-air missile plus 30mm rounds were registered as the obvious cause of the crash.

    From the few English comments at the DSB site, we learn there was a preliminary report distributed to all nations concerned as per August 16 – Malaysian minister of Transport Datuk Seri Liow Tiong Lai  stated.  

    In recent weeks, an international team of some 25 aircraft accident investigators has collected as much investigation information as possible in Ukraine. Since it is not necessary to stay in Ukraine any longer to analyse the information and write a report on the preliminary findings, the team has relocated to The Hague to continue its work.

    The team’s efforts will initially focus on the report of preliminary findings, which the Dutch Safety Board aims to publish in a few weeks’ time. The report will contain the first factual findings arising from the investigation based on various sources, such as the cockpit voice recorder and the flight data recorder (the black boxes), air traffic control data, radar and satellite images. This data is currently being compared and will subsequently be analysed.

    
    [Source press statement DSB on August 11]

    Other followers waiting for any substantial information from the DSB are just as skeptical, posting the report will become available when the fighters in Luhansk and Donetsk have surrendered.  When the war is over and the facts on the ground are irreversible. In the message, Ukraine is sending 1,500 troops to Transcarpathia to surpress unrest with Hungary.

    ○ Dutch review energy ties with Russia after MH17 crash

25. 

    Oui on August 25, 2014 at 7:15 am

    Foreign hackers stole Flight MH370 data from investigators

    The day after the crash of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 hackers stole classified data from the computers of senior officials involved in the investigation.

    Just after the incident occurred to the Malaysian Airlines Flight MH370 a spear phishing attack targeted 30 government officials and bad actors have stolen classified documents relating to the missing Flight MH370.

    “The computers of high-ranking officials in agencies involved in the MH370 investigation
     were hacked and classified information was stolen.” reported the The Straits Times.

    Around 30 computers were infected by a malware inoculated through a PDF document which appeared to be a news report about the incident occurred to the Flight MH370.

    See my earlier diary – Mystery Deepens: Renegade Plane Crashed In Indian Ocean [Update-5].