So, it’s debate night. And it’s the 50th anniversary of the Voting Rights Act of 1965. And none of these eleventy billion candidates are going to give more than lip service to voting rights, except to say that too many people are pretending to be Cheech Marin and casting two votes.
Keep it civil.
Or not.
Let me know when they have an actual debate. Instead of some weird Reality TV. program.
Don’t hold your breath.
For either party.
PermaGov don’t like open debates.
Not unless they can influence who wins.
Bet on it.
AG
I would rather have an unnecessary root canal than sit through either debate. Happy to read the rundown on the lowdown in tomorrow’s paper. If I miss someone getting shot in the face, sobeit….
Kind of feel the same way.
There is always rerun video if someone is shot in the face. And if one does something extraordinarily stupid, someone on a blog (or Youtube) will post video.
Perry clips on Iran are close to “oops” without factual clarification. ie American boys killed in Iran.
Fiorina is just as ignorant about the various factions in the ME. But she hangs out with King Abdullah — and she know all the other ME heads of state.
Fiorina is Trump in drag but King Abdullah likes her better.
King Abdullah probably likes anything in a skirt.
Fiorina probably has not been to the ME since she lost her job in 2005. She has been serving on boards and collecting salaries.
I just figured her comment was delusional — like her business record.
Santorum — Roe = Dred Scott. He was also a leader in the Senate and passed legislation that overturned a SC ruling.
Gilmore — would appoint SC justices that will follow the law instead of make the law. (except when I don’t like the law or want the SC to write laws that I like.)
Gilmore seems like he at least has a resume.
Oh, and Graham thinks he’s in the general election and running against Hillary, Bill, and Barack.
Also in the J/V debate, he said, ISIS isn’t in J/V terrorist league.
Pataki accepts Roe as settled law, but need a law that prohibits government funds for abortion and PP must be closed down.
Aren’t we still passing the Hyde Amendment, long after Henry Hyde went to his just deserts?
Ssh — don’t tell Pataki. He needs all the talking points he has.
May he join Henry at the weinie roast soon.
You’ll have to explain your response b/c I don’t get it.
Henry is dead and in Hell.
Am sure I could have figured out that part if I knew who “Henry” was.
Ah! Henry Hyde. You didn’t recognize his first name i guess. I had the misfortune to be his constituent for 28 years.
So lame. Why is he bothering?
Like Graham, “Why not?”
As the guy that’s clocked almost as many minutes on the TV talkies as McCain, all that experience didn’t prevent Graham from scraping the bottom of the barrel in the debate. As of 6/30, Graham had raised $2.2 million and transferred another $1.5 million from his Senate re-election campaign fund. Spent $1.1 million which left him $2.6 million cash on hand. Difficult to see how he doesn’t drop out fairly soon.
Graham — as POTUS will send more soldiers back to Iraq — b/c that’s how we protect Americans.
(Not sure I can take much more of this which is just a regurgitation of what they said in their forum.)
And I’m for taxing everyone more, down to the unincorporated hamlets.
With that, you would have stood out from the debate crowd. A really long buzzer and a hook would also have removed you from the stage.
Because that’s how we protect the Americans that profit from military contracts.
Yes the Fox propaganda channel is pushing the GOP rich mans propaganda programming to the hilt tonight. All of the different rich backers of these numerous puppets on stage are patting themselves on the back for a nights work well done.
Yes Fox news the channel that has hyped up so many of the RW wackos that they are firing on our own troops during training.
Bill-O seems almost sane amongst all the insanity of these debates.
Do people really bet on everything AG advises us to bet on?
Good question.
The last betting I did was at Yearly Kos in Las Vegas where I won more than enough playing craps to pay for the whole trip, airfare and hotel included.
The Fox News folks seem to have received a memo from the top floor to push Fiorina as the winner of the Kiddie Table debate.
Beat me to it. They’ve got Scarborough pushing it, too. I guess the thought is:
She didn’t get a phone call from Bill Clinton, but she might have gotten a memo written in disappearing ink as a head’s up as to the debate questions.
Good lord, that pre-debate time-suck was both awkward and excitement killing.
Did Trump just follow up a refusal to pledge not to make a third-party run with a profession of loyalty to the Republican party?
The wording of the question to the candidates was confusing. What I saw was that Trump was the only one who refused to rule out an independent POTUS run.
Walker:
Heyyy, lookit that! Good pickup, and good funny.
what did that mean???
If government doesn’t create good jobs, why are there so many well-compensating jobs near the center of our Federal government?
sounds right. I didn’t find out until close to start time that it wasn’t streaming; watched on closed caption nearby – when that came on : huh??
Damn! Good thing I have a healthy supply of liquor in the house for this damn circus. When John Kasich seems like a voice of reason, I know I’m fucked. All I’ve learned is that every problem we have is because of them damn illegals and war is the answer to everything else.
Carson — US Air Force smaller than it was in 1940.
(The FP questions so far are loaded and factually challenged.)
Um….the US Air Force didn’t exist in 1940. Air warfare was a branch of the US Army until the USAF’s creation in 1947…
I was about to ask how something becomes less than zero, before realizing it’s a metaphor for the entire Republican presidential field.
Well, 1947 — the govt decided they’d better get themselves a real AF in order to fight the aliens who just landed at Roswell … And a CIA to cover it all up …
Huckabee sez: Fix the funding mechanisms for Social Security and Medicare by taxing “dividends and capital gains…illegals, prostitutes, pimps, drug dealers, all the people who are freeloading off the system now.”
The crowd response to that was very amusing.
Weirdly enough, he’s not wrong on this. But does that mean he supports legalizing drugs and prostitution b/c that’s the only way taxes for those underground industries can be collected.
I generally agree with your first sentence. And yes, you can’t tax these things and maintain prohibitions against them at the same time, but “Logic- how does it work?” is pretty much the GOP campaign slogan these days.
God, the entire time I was like, “Ugh I feel dirty for agreeing with Mike Huckabee…” then he got to talking about pimps and prostitutes and all was well again.
Loooove the way Trump drew Christie into the question re. Trump Entertainment Resort’s bankruptcy filing in 2009: “I had the good sense to leave Atlantic City. Caesar’s just went bankrupt, every company- Chris can tell you, every company virtually in Atlantic City went bankrupt.”
These mother****ers deserve each other.
Spending two hours embedded in this world of alternate reality is almost too much to endure. When John Kasich is the “reasonable one” on the stage, you know we have jumped the shark.
It’s only an “alternate reality” if it loses.
AG
Carson on revenue: God said we need a 10% flat tax. Yet the insane somnambulist also wants to re-inflate the Defense budget. Good lord, didn’t God also instruct you/us to care for the poor, you horrible man?
Not his God. He worships Mammon.
I would agree that Bullshit Ben does bear false witness quite frequently.
Most missed number in NH:
By 49-39 REPUBLICAN primary voters in NH SUPPORT same sex marriage 49-39.
I think John Kasich knows this, and his answer on SSM was pretty good.
NH is NOT representative of the GOP electorate, but it will end many candidacies.
Kasich also gets it that expanded Medicaid is popular in red states that have adopted it. And he frames his support in the language of compassion — Christianity as he did with ss marriage. Seems to me he’s looking a bit further down the road wrt public opinion on those two issues than his competitors.
Other commentators are concluding that this makes Kasich DOA with the GOP base, but IMHO at least a third of it is open to Kasich’s position.
Since I’m a liberal I know I’m looking at this through a biased frame of reference, but I thought Kasich did well. Simply because he seemed, at times, to be expressing some ideas that could be general considered as almost conservative Democratic ideas in past times. Yet, the focus group on Fox was overwhelmingly impressed with Cruz and Huckabee, who I thought were the two most despicable humans on the stage tonight. So I guess this complete tone deafness I have to what is attractive to the conservative mind is just too much for my brain to overcome. They truly exist in a world that I just don’t recognize.
In his last run Huckabee was often seen as the winner in debates.
Hartmann was talking this am about how Hucklebee has been raking in big bucks in speaking fees in recent years, as a result of his presidential run and the Fox gig that followed. He speculated its primarily $$ motivating him again, and an expensive lifestyle he wants to maintain.
I tend to agree. I don’t see the fire in the belly. I see the belly, but not much fire.
He’s going nowhere, and is not VP material either.
Kasich was the only one on the stage I heard repeatedly mention the need for govt to take care of those at the bottom and those unable to help themselves. Will credit him for that. Not a typical completely heartless Republican bastard.
I think he might have won some of Jeb’s Not Insane Conservative share tonight.
I watched with mostly liberals but a few disaffecteds. Kasich was by far the most effective. I had to repeatedly remind people, “Dude’s not a moderate.”
That’s why he would be scary if he gets the nomination. If the reports are correct that Jeb took himself out of contention tonight, money and voters are going to move to Kasich.
As MikeinOhio often reminds us. Did seem the only sane one on stage, I guess we knew the others weren’t sane, but unfortunate that Kasich looked reasonable.
Well, we know that Kasich is almost as batshit crazy as the rest of them and that “Christian” based compassion is nothing more than what the non-extreme fundie but rightwing churches dish out every Sunday. But that’s part of the GOP base. It gets less attention than the extremists because they’re not as noisy.
To the extent Kasich moderates at all it’s because he wants to accomplish things on occasion. Give him an R congress and he will roll out that reactionary, give Jim and Congress and stuff will function. Probably better than Bush II but that’s a low bar.
Jim and = him a Dem
They don’t get it. Kasich can be as tough as nails on abortion and ISIS to show his conservative credentials.
Most importantly, issues are not as decisive as people like you and I think they are.
Kasich is made for New Hampshire. He faces a decision: does he play in IA?
I think it is Walker versus Cruz in IA. Winner takes on Jeb and Kasich in NH. There are at most 3 viable tickets out of NH.
Agree with you on NH, but too soon to make any call about Iowa which can be quite odd in the GOP caucus. If Jeb sputters out, Kasich could inherit a lot of that vote. Doubt Walker will be looking as good anywhere after tonight’s debate.
Understand that Cruz has had his crazy preacher dad hustling in Iowa for some time now, but in the polls to date, he’s still in the second tier.
I watched it.
All of it.
The results?
In no particular order:
Winners: Kasich, Rubio, Huckabee. Given that they are Republicans, of course…they were relatively smart, nimble and engaging. Rubio in particular has a good head on his shoulders. Dunno about his heart, but the head was working just fine.
Neither winners nor losers: Bush, Carson. Carson doesn’t really count, but at least he was funny once he loosened up. Bush? Again…given that he is a Republican, he seemed almost moderate, plus he made me think that perhaps he is at least a better man than are his father and brother. Faint praise, I know, but there it is. Gotta get a better fitted pair of glasses, though.
Losers (and why) : Cruz-nasty face. Walker-looks like a egg-sucking dog.
BIG losers (and why): Trump-The hot air was all there was. (Thank the God to whom all the candidates were referring.) Paul-Whiny. Too small. Awkward. Bad haircut. Christie-Still a fat, mean local bully.
Issues?
Whaddayou, kiddin’ me or what? This is national American politics!!! A nationwide popularity contest. Kinda like being voted King or Queen of the high school prom. You don’t have to have the best grades or the most talent, you just have to piss off the fewest people.
Only 15 more months of this bullshit to go!!!
Neeeeeext…!!!
AG
Best review that I’ve seen on line: http://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/hell-is-empty-and-all-the-devils-are-here-a-shakespearean-guide-t
o-the-2016-republican-primary
You’re viewing the debate through the wrong lens/filter. Trump trumped everyone.
Trump sounds exactly like any racist wingnut you’ll hear at a gathering when the wingnut feels like his audience will all agree with him. Get rid of all of the darkies – well, some of my best friends are darkies, but they’re the exception. Hell, yeah, I call wimen sluts and fat pigs if I want, and I’m tired of people telling me I can’t because of political correctness. Yes, the country’s going to shit now because of all of the darkies, especially that Kenyan born Muslim in the White House. We need a White back in the white house. We need to end welfare (which is where all of my tax dollars go), fund out under-sized military, cut taxes, get rid of the IRS, export all the immigrants, stop letting darkies vote, and let us say whatever we want about anyone.
That’s Trump. His solutions are THEIR solutions.
He did something else this debate – something VERY important. He knew Fox would try to take him out and was prepared for it. He’s now calling Megyn Kelly a bimbo – literally – and is getting hoots and cheers from the base for doing so. You see, the wingnut base doesn’t really like the Fox bimbos – the men like to oogle them and the women don’t mind them for decoration, but both sexes are highly resentful of them. In addition, although the base watches Fox most of the base doesn’t really trust Fox because they think Fox is (no really I swear) too liberal, too mainstream. This is why they go to the more extreme websites and listen to the more extreme radio. You’ll hear things like “I don’t really trust Fox except for Sean Hannity”.
So, knowing all this Trump just set himself up as an opponent of Fox. Now the wingnuts have been doing this for decades – setting themselves up as opponents of the mainstream pro-corporate networks. But to add Fox to his media enemies list is genius. He’s in perfect harmony with the base and now Fox will feel the pressure to show that they aren’t being unfair to Trump.
Trump may be the nominee. He’s the first candidate since Ross Perot who wasn’t dependent on the party elders for funding, and the base loves him in a way that the other candidates still don’t get.
You are right about what he did and why he did it…except for the distinct possibility that he really couldn’t stop himself from doing it. Not so much a plotted set of moves as an unstoppable, compulsive, emotional force. The new Tourette’s disease. Trumpitis. However, one way or the other I do not believe that the Trump base will be enough to get him nominated by the Republicans, and I do not think that a third party move would get him elected.
Not this time…
But next time?
If we have 4 more years of almost total failure in Washington no matter what supposed parties hold what supposed offices?
Then it could get interesting.
Trump or someone else who taps into the same—rapidly growing out of the far right and into the mainstream…total disgust with the Permanent Government and rule by corruption?
Then it could get very interesting.
Watch.
AG
Saw only part of debate, but judging by the post-game on msnbc, sounds like Kasich and Rubio came out winners, or Rubio then Kasich.
Chris Matthews and some others keep talking about Rubio’s youth = Looking Forward, how that would pose problems for the older Hillary, but without mentioning how his reactionary policies would take the country backward as Eliz Warren talked about recently.
The Donald got dinged on women and his conditional pledge on running a 3d party candidacy. Might see his numbers begin to dip. I still see him as a temporary front runner, too volatile to last.
Not mentioned much in the post-game is Jeb Bush. I wonder if Rubio and Kasich will gain at his expense. Or maybe he did well enough to hold steady. Ditto for Walker.
Dr Ben seemed well out of his depth. I noticed he’s got those cold, dead shark eyes like Bruce Walker. Confirms my expectation he will fade from the scene soon.
RAND Paul also looked diminished. Another guy headed for the bottom of the second tier, and lower.
Just to point out, Schumer, presumably the next Dem senate leader just came out against the Iran deal. Lame duck status for Obama confirmed?
More likely, as James Fallows predicted at The Atlantic, it means Obama has enough votes in the Senate that Schumer’s isn’t needed…so Schumer gets a “free” vote. (This in turn means he’s less likely to have any trouble with his own re-election campaign next year and can focus more on raising $$ for candidates who will make him Senate majority (not minority) leader in 2017.
At the same time, Gillebrand jumped the other way.
It’s a paired vote. It’s not often the gears and levers are in such open view…
From the comments above, having had the good sense to sleep thru the entire thing:
Kasich by a head and a neck;
Rubio firms up support and gets another chance;
Trump is Trump, but that doesn’t play well when other children can actually answer you;
Hukcabee gets to stay around for a while;
Walker is fading before he lights up;
Bush is hoping for massive coronaries in about 15 people … very soon, before people forget that he actually was a relatively successful elected official;
The rest are just losers, waiting out their 15 minutes of loser fame.
I don’t know what the excitement’s about.
This is only the first debate. Not even the “kiddy table” is going to disappear yet; there’s still a lot of money left yet to waste on the boutique candidates.
This was less about eliminating candidates from the clown car and more about revving up the base early in the cycle. And getting the narrative set.
If these sorts of events are where the terms of the 2016 election are set, we are in deep trouble and it will be business as usual.
If there is signficant change in the political culture, it will not be visible for a while, maybe not even by next summer.
IMHO paying so much attention to the clown car at this stage is a waste of time and a diversion from more important issues.
None of the “debates” are a waste of time. It’s the only time a large portion of the electorate gets to see the candidates in a less scripted forum and in comparison with their competitors.
It’s the post debates reviews and analyses that still needs a lot of work. So far, there’s been little comment on the misrepresentations and outright lies of the candidates in yesterday’s debates. If I knew nothing, I’d conclude from these appearances that all the governors/fmr governors hail from the most awesome of US states and that resulted from the constructive acts of these guys. Fox at least touched on Trump’s bankruptcies, but Fiorina’s firing from HP?
Debates are the best events in a campaign, and with good reason.
You know, it is how Lincoln became known.
In that sense, these are not debates. The moderators approach their questioning with the same irrelevance and picking of winners and losers without actually vetting candidates that they do on regular newcasts and Sunday talk shows. They have degenerated into purely eyeball-grabbing events.
And last nights’ was handicapped by Fox’s strict control over the context and the fact that only paid subscribers to the specific Fox service could view it. The 1960 Presidential debate between Nixon and Kennedy was broadcast wall-to-wall over the entire media spectrum at the time. The candidates, the media, the public, and especially the League of Women Voters considered the debate that important.
As for last night being “less scripted”, that might be true of a campaign staff that was not comprehensive in its diagnosis of gotcha questions. And that only tests the candidate’s ability to operate with surprises.
After last night, it will be interesting to see how many people tune in for the later debates. Was the Fox debate a way of Rager Ailes immunizing the Republican field to the intervention of real issues in future debates?
Plenty of things are misnamed, but why waste time arguing that they aren’t “debates” when that’s the name given for these events?