Try not to say something stupid that you’ll regret.
About The Author
BooMan
Martin Longman a contributing editor at the Washington Monthly. He is also the founder of Booman Tribune and Progress Pond. He has a degree in philosophy from Western Michigan University.
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Recent Posts
- Day 14: Louisiana Senator Approvingly Compares Trump to Stalin
- Day 13: Elon Musk Flexes His Muscles
- Day 12: While Elon Musk Takes Over, We Podcast With Driftglass and Blue Gal
- Day 11: Harm of Fascist Regime’s Foreign Aid Freeze Comes Into View
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http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/11/13/1449432/-BNR-Postal-Workers-Deliver-Bernie-A-Big-Endorsemen
t-amp-Sanders-Inspires-Students-To-Take-Act
Correction to the link: There are five postal unions. APWU (my union) is the biggest one, but is not THE postal union. Following the successful strike of 1976, internal bickering caused the union to fragment, IMHO to the detriment of all crafts.
No attribution of the attacks yet. Nonetheless, speculations is flaming on the US Wall Street media. And Hollande is trying to flank Le Pen by promising a pitiless war.
And Judy Miller is using the attacks in Paris to attack the students at the University of Missouri.
And the right-wingers are asking that Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton be haunted forever by the ghosts of brave men. Huh!
speculation just as silly in the internet media.
I can’t find words for that vile, vicious, murdering, human-shaped creature Judy Miller. If there is a just god she will burn in hell eternally.
If there was a just god, she’d be there already.
Judith Miller just needs to go away already.
good advice BooMan, and from what I’ve read so far many people aren’t following it. They won’t all regret it, but a lot of stupid is being said.
Don’t know if this is stupid or not, but my guess is that LaPen and European Right wing parties in general are the winners. And the more bloodshed ping-pongs back and forth, the bigger they win. Satan never sleeps.
A number of remarkable set-backs for ISIL in recent days …
○ ISIL siege of Aleppo airbase ‘broken by Syrian army’
○ ‘Jihadi John’: US ‘reasonably certain’ strike killed IS militant
○ Kurdish forces say IS ‘defeated and on the run’ in Sinjar
Paris attacks could have been much worse, appears arms – eight AK-47s, grenades and explosives –
were intercepted from a Montenegrin in Bavaria on Nov. 5 … SatNav programmed for destination Paris.
○ Bayerische Polizei fasst möglichen Komplizen
○ Bavaria arrest raises suspicions about links to Paris attacks | Deutsche Welle |
ick. Just…ick. This is very, very not good. And it will be used as justification for things even worse to come, in France, in the Middle East, here, and beyond. That’s been the point of such attacks since the days of mujahideen fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan – win hearts and minds by getting the opposition to overreact and commit crimes far worse than yours. The West never seems to learn not to take the bait. In the case of Wingnuttistan, why wouldn’t they – there’s money to be made! And always, always, it’s civilians who take the brunt of the violence from all sides.
Bataclan is a 1500-person rock venue that was showing the Eagles of Death Metal.
Here’s some stuff from Claire Phipps, the Guardian:
Hollande’s determination to “wage pitiless war” looks a little different when you notice that most of the casualties came from three guys with automatic weapons who set off their suicide vests.
And as 9/11 shows, nothing drives the vengeance-hungry crazier than the denial of vengeance that suicide attacks create.
Claire Phipps, the Guardian:
This is not going away.
Surrender or victory.
Neither one is likely.
Slow disintegration so far.
End the hustle.
AG
Please.
AG
Solidarity with the French.
Knowing the colonial history of France, I’ll never align myself with the French.
“Je suis Charlie … non!”
Same for the Brits, Dutch, Spanish, Israelis, Chinese, Soviets or Russians and Americans.
These are powerful nations committing their portion of atrocities/carnage across the globe. These nations are not peacemakers.
My solidarity is with the oppressed and victims of hatred, violence, famine and wars.
The oppressed and victims of hatred, violence, famine and wars are everywhere, even in the West. Oppressors and victimizers are everywhere too, even outside of the West. Selective solidarity cannot be sincere.
Ironic since your name is French.
intolerant nonsense, truly intolerant nonsense. what about the citizens of those countries?
○ Apr 2015 – France and Qatar seal $7 billion Rafale fighter jet deal
Qatar has agreed to buy 24 Dassault Aviation-built Rafale fighter jets in a 6.3-billion-euro (4.55 billion pounds) deal, the
French government said on Thursday, as the Gulf Arab state looks to boost its military firepower in an increasingly unstable region.
○ June 2015 – Saudi Arabia and France ink $12bln deal
Saudi Arabia and France agreed Wednesday to sign $12 billion of deals, Saudi Foreign Minister Adel Al-Jubair
said during a landmark visit by Deputy Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman to Paris.
○ Sept 2015 – François Hollande of France Says Assad Must Go
President François Hollande of France told the United Nations General Assembly on Monday that his country
would “shoulder its responsibilities” in global efforts to end the fighting in Syria, but that the
conflict could be resolved only if President Bashar al-Assad was removed from power.
[Source: MoA – Terror Attacks In France – Some Related Links]
See also my earlier comments on French foreign policy in Africa, Lebanon/Syria and nuclear testing in the Pacific.
France decide to place a bomb in Greenpeace’s Rainbow Warrior killing a Dutch photographer.
It’s two agents pleaded quilty to a lesser charge and never completed their prison term.
Watch this hypocrite, sultan Erdogan of Turkey [after 250,000 deaths in Syria, two-thirds civilian]
○ Paris attacks are a crime against humanity | Hürriyet |
Erdogan’s plight of the Syrian refugees fleeing to Greece has been rewarded with the European Union fulfilling his wishes for funds and to bring EU membership back on track without fulfilling basic right for individual freedom and freedom of the press. Which nation had open borders to allow arms and Islamic fighters into Syria to bring down Assad. A stupid, stupid world where money buys political power and power corrupts.
Parisiens.
Latest from The Guardian
That’s more in line with the known carnage than the earlier reports of five attackers.
This morning bleary eyes are still trying to focus on the who part. CNN seemed to overblow everything last night, and when I went to bed they were sticking with the 160 dead even when the prosecutor gave a figure of 127.
This morning it’s at 127, with 200 injured, some critical.
France’s president is declaring this was ISIS and calling for war. The borders are still closed. I’m surprised the finger points at ISIS/L. I thought it would turn up to be AQ affiliate. Lots of planning and organization all to maximize.
Heard Al Gore was in town for prep and documentary for the summit in 2 weeks. Climate change needs the focus, hope it will go on.
Islamic State claimed responsibility.
My guess? “Anything AQ can do, we can do better.”
Saw that after I posted. sigh. Interesting they think the Syrian and Egyptian passports found close to the 2 suicide bombers may be fake.
The conversation in Europe about refugees is now going to change, and the Shengen zone is probably dead. The EU will survive, but there will be border checks. And the tolerance toward the tidal wave of Afghanis, Iraqis, Nigerians, and the occasional Syrian will end.
That was probably the plan. Cant think of anything that helps them more than shutting out the refugees.
We are going to find out how these persons got to France. Because in 800,000 young men streaming from Turkey carrying cell phones in their designer jeans, there is at least one ISIS person going along. The guy arrested going from Bavaria to France carrying weapons in his car with explosives concealed in the door panels also got there somehow.
The other possibility is French muslims returning from battles in Syria.
And stirring up mutual east-west hostility and hate. There will be anti-Muslim attacks in retaliation and that also serves the purpose of everyone who wants to continue the war.
From most reports it was 8 terrorists (Plus an untold number of brainwashing accomplices) who committed these crimes against people dining and attending a Friday night concert that was sold out.
Something almost everyone of us has done multiple times throughout our lives. I have no hatred of any religions, or lack of religion, but terrorists?
Yep, they gotta go.
And go quickly.
My heart, soul, and brain is at war with the terrorists. My kids deserve a better future.
Movie theaters, First Grade Classrooms, Federal Buildings, Airplanes, Skyscrapers, Now Concert Venues?
F*** these terrorists. Kill the lot of them, wherever they are — from Idaho to Iraq, from Pyongyang to Paris.
Get em all.
OK. Here is what is about to happen:
But first a question.
How do you deal with people who are willing…anxious, even…to die for their beliefs? No discussion of what those beliefs may be or their relative validity…just “How do you deal with them?”
Answer:
You either surrender to them or you try to kill them. There is no third choice. No amount of discussion, no negotiation will change that sort of belief system.
So…here is what is about to happen in the NATO countries.
More killing.
More war, with all of the usual (post-Information Age style) accoutrements.
More political moves to the right. (Even if camouflaged by neo-liberal rhetoric.)
War footing-level security. The real thing, not just information gathering. Roundups. More police actions, more internal intelligence actions.
More censorship.
More lockstep media propaganda.
War.
Watch.
Surrender is out of the question for either side.
War.
Buckle up. It’s gonna be an even rougher ride.
Watch.
AG
See NevadaJ’s post above for a typical man-in-the-street reaction.
Watch.
It’s on.
AG
“How do you deal with people who are willing…anxious, even…to die for their beliefs?”
This question only deals with the symptom and not the root cause and so the response will entail dealing only in incident management as your two answers do.
The right question to ask and answer is “Why are these people willing to die for their beliefs?” Only then can you start to engage in problem management and seek a long-term solution.
Unfortunately the world is not organized in such a way that it can even start to deal with this question let alone answer it. I am not sure how many tragedies like this one it will take to do so.
So I am afraid that all we have for now is your two responses. But they won’t solve the problem, not on their own.
Gen. George Patton was not troubled by people willing to die for their beliefs (or country). He was happy to oblige them.
The purpose of religion and its first cousin ideology is to symbolically arrange your thinking so that you will do what you would normally not done — including sacrificing your own life. Well, is it its purpose or its hidden function in social relationships?
Next time you post, Gilroy, maybe you could break with your standard format and tell us what you might think can be done to improve things. Maybe nothing; if so what is the point of the rant. Curiously you always seem to know better. Doubts. ‘Of course Quentin, I have my doubts but the permgov is so far gone that the final fix is in and all hell break will loose, count on it.’ Something like that.
I no longer believe that I…or any other people…have anything even remotely resembling ‘solutions” to what is happening. Way back just after 9/11 I tried on DKos and a number of other sites (including here later on) to suggest a set of movements that I called “NewsStrike,” “MediaStrike” and “CultureStrike.” The set of fixes that has now gotten us into this fix were purely media driven. Boycott the media and you hit Big Corp where it lives…in its advertising pockets. No advertising, no consumer hustle, just for starters. No advertising, no foisting of fix candidates upon the American people.
I got nowhere with it…kicked off of DKos during the July 4th Massacre when The Little King got rid of any and all who weren’t PermaGov-supporting Dems, and later on off of a couple of other sites.
But…I stayed here because Booman permits a much broader view of things than do the other so-called “progressive” sites. We disagree in many ways, but he encourages disagreement as long as it’s not totally stupid.
So here I am…just telling it like I see it.
A fairly prescient email follows, that I sent to a friend about 9 hours before the Paris attacks went down. It states my current position quite clearly.
Like dat.
Survive.
The real First Commandment.
Bet on that as well.
i am.
AG
And it is that war footing in the “homeland” that ISIS seeks (even if it had nothing at all to do with the attacks, which given the current claims is increasingly unlikely).
There have been claimed attacks against Lenanon, Russia, and France within the past two weeks. Exactly as the new hand-signaled coordination between NATO, Russia, and Iran is beginning to force ISIS back from territory in Iraq and Syria in major instead of minor ways. The more the pressure in Syria and Iraq, the more the planned attacks in the NATO, Russian, and Iranian homelands. Iran’s next up. Or was Lebanon attacked because Iran is too hardened?
The biggest problem with AG’s Hobson’s choice is that you don’t know you have a suicide attack going on until the guy with the Kalashnikov presses the button on his suicide belt.
Whether homicide or suicide, the attack generally has not been prevented no matter how the attacker has been killed. And…most importantly, a suicide attack denies the victim vengeance, which as we saw in 9/11 can be highly disorienting to fighting back effectively.
Who wins is polarization and national front parties.
Who loses eventually is Islamic jihadism as a movement.
Who loses immediately are those hoping for a restoration of an open society.
You write:
Indeed.
How will the NATO powers try to solve this problem?
They will try to kill the body that supports these people. It’s called “war.” Simultaneously they will increase surveillance of anybody and everybody and act then with less restraint when they see or hear even a mildly discouraging word.
Will they go too far in both cases?
Probably.
Will they succeed?
Maybe.
As the ISIS violence continues to ramp up many Muslims who have initially supported it will begin to have second thoughts. And…these particular terrorists are really not very bright. Compared to the organization that pulled off 9/11? Dumb as a stick.
We shall see.
Won’t we.
AG
What has that multi-trillion dollars since 2001 gone for? Seems that war doesn’t quite get rid of these guys; it metastasizes them.
What happens when they (the authorities) go too far in both cases is the delegitimizing of the homeland forces.
There are a lot of examples that show that a force (or a political party) does not have to be bright to win; there are other virtues in politics and its extension warfare.
Where warfare is self-defeating is when it becomes divorced from political aims and activity.
It’s not the muslim attraction to ISIS I am worried about, the large number of refugees trying to get to Europe (the closest “better life”) indicates the direction of muslim sentiment.
I am worried about the Western Russo-phobes who undercut the destruction of the Nusra Front and ISIS because they want to topple Assad sooner instead of later. It’s the same mindless BS (might even be the same actors) that went on in Ukraine.
agree; presumably the current coalition is [in part] Obama’s end run around them
You write:
I know. That’s why I used the word “try.”
A military commender on the intellectual level of Dwight Eisenhower might be able to pull it off, but our armed forces have been so thoroughly decontented since the early ’50s by foolish wars and the even more foolish politicians who order them that instead of Eisenhowers we get Petraeuses.
And worse.
So it goes.
Down like a motherfucker.
Think we’ve got it bad now?
Next up?
Something around the equivalent of Preznit Trump and General Bieber.
Or worse.
Watch.
AG
yes, and I assume Russia, Iran and NATO and us/ US [I assume we have a player in Kerry apart from NATO] will keep it up, because the idiot jihadis have reminded everyone what is at stake.
Paris attackers are drones with faces.
Do you really see a moral equivalence between the Paris attacks and US drone strikes?
I would like to believe that there is at least one bad guy that US drones are aiming at when they kill a lot of innocent people. That’s makes a bit of difference at least. But the point, in my opinion, is that we have to acknowledge that we are one side of this war, and can’t pretend we have done nothing wrong.
November 13, 2015, Ben Norton, FAIR — Media Turn Civilian ISIS Victims in Beirut Into Hezbollah Human Shields. (How many Presidents/PM/politicians issued the standard “shocked, saddened, praying for the victims” within hours of this ISIS attack?)
First of five NYTimes headlines on the story: Deadly Blasts Hit Hezbollah Stronghold in Southern Beirut
Karen Armstrong — on the roots of ISIS.
The Sinai tragedy occurred when a Metrojet Airbus 321, bound for St Petersburg with 224 people on board,
crashed in the desert just 23 minutes after taking off from the resort of Sharm-el-Sheikh on October 31.
We have covered this before, the lunacy of Charlie Hebdo.
Je Suis Charlie … Non!
The cartoon appears on the magazine’s back page and shows parts of a plane and a passenger falling from the sky
onto a bearded, armed militant. The commentary reads: “Islamic State: Russian aviation intensifies its bombardments.”
“The Charlie Hebdo journalists danced on the memory of people who died in that terrible air crash. These caricatures
will deliver a hard blow at the image of France and Europe where such things are possible,” said Vyacheslav Nikonov.
Tass news agency:
“The magazine’s actions are designed to foster terrorism which is shameful and insulting for France,” Irina Yarovaya,
the deputy head of the Russian State Duma Committee for Security and Counteraction to Terrorism, said.
“The caricatures fall short of human ethics,” Boris Reznik, secretary of the Russian Journalists’ Union, said.
○ Russians outraged after Charlie Hebdo cartoons ‘ridicule’ Sinai plane crash | RT |
From the WP:
“A Syrian passport found near the body of a Paris gunman indicates that its holder entered Europe through Greece, a Greek official said, according to the Associated Press.”
Thus, the point I made in the other thread, that at least one of the “refugees” is ISIS, is true. Now, the hunt will begin.
And my timetable for Merkel’s fall, which I pegged to Jan, is now mid-Dec.
The entire cluster-fuck of German stupidity, EU idiocy, and liberal fecklessness in the refugee invasion is now coming home to roost. It started as a disaster in March of this year, and is now a full-fledged tsunami of idiocy. You cannot promise free beer, free college, and unlimited amnesty without people taking you up on it, and now the Germans will see the results of their incredibly stupid policy.
A Syrian passport found near the body of a Paris gunman …
Because passports are never stolen. And near the body is as good as on the body.
Another reason to hold off on running with this is that the passport belonged to a 45 year old man. A bit old for those engaged in combat.
Not at all. A bit old for combat against younger trained soldiers, but not against unarmed civilians. That’s like shooting sheep in a pen.
The average age for suicide bombers is 21. The oldest among the 9/11 hijackers was Atta — age 33. The known operational teams for the Paris attacks were on a suicide mission.
45 might seem young to you, but it is old for operational religious terrorists.
I suppose they do need young and dumb.
The birth year on that Syrian passport has now been corrected twice from the original report of 1970 — to 1980 and then to 1990. (Originally misreported? Or it it stick out like a sore thumb to someone other than me?)
Anyway, from a Greek authority:
So, we shall see if the French authorities confirm that one of the attackers did pass through Greece last month as a refugee.
The guy arrested in Bavaria with the car filled with grenades, AK-47s, and explosives in the door panels was 51. Controllers of the suicide bombers are often older. So that’s a pile of crap as a rule-out.
I wasn’t talking about controllers; only those that engage in the actual attack.
Odds seem good to me that the weapons and explosive material in that car were intended for the Paris attacks. And French authorities were promptly informed of the seizure and arrest. However, a 51 year old man from Montenegro didn’t easily connect to anyone on the French watch list. Was this man the “ticking time bomb” that has been used an excuse to use torture or was he some schlub that knows nothing and needed a job?
Thanks for your frank reply. Maybe now you’ll post some of your music and try to put us in a better mood. Music always lives.