It’s a bit of conundrum, at least for me. If Hillary Clinton says that she wants to represent the folks who are working multiple jobs, including the third shift, and who don’t have paid days off to devote to attending a Democratic caucus, I can see why it irritates her that there are a lot of states that hold caucuses and that she typically loses badly in those states. Her voters are disproportionately excluded from the caucuses, but they find it much easier to get to the polls to cast a quick vote in a primary. Unless they live in upstate New York where the polls don’t open until noon today, Clinton’s supporters will be better represented today than they were in, say, Wyoming.
Yet, it’s Bernie Sanders who’s supposed to be the real working man’s candidate. He’s the one fighting for the underclass instead giving speeches to Wall Street executives, right? So, those third shift voters are naturally his, right? And he’s the one who is talking about how victory only comes in high turnout elections.
So, why does he do the best in the lowest turnout elections?
Well, you tell me, the caucuses attract the most committed members of the party. If you look up the definition of a caucus in the dictionary, it says right there that they are “meeting(s) of the members of a legislative body who are members of a particular political party, to select candidates or decide policy.” A caucus is supposed to be made up of lifelong Democrats and the party establishment, which is precisely why Bernie Sanders is the candidate of choice in caucuses. Right?
Wrong?
Yeah, there’s something wrong with that last bit, isn’t there?
But then you tell me that Hillary Clinton does even better in primaries if the primaries are closed to anyone who isn’t a registered Democrat. And that’s a little confusing, since we’ve already established that Bernie Sanders does best among hardcore Democrats.
Oh, but then you tell me that these are only the elitist hardcore Democrats who have spare time for caucuses. Regular folks, hard-working multiple-third-shift-job Democrats, they’re in Clinton’s camp. For Sanders to win in a (relatively) high-turnout primary, he needs independents who have little to no commitment or history with the Democratic Party, and who certainly haven’t worked as organizers within the party. A closed primary, like the one today in New York and the one next week in Pennsylvania, disadvantages Sanders and disenfranchises a lot of his supporters.
You can make some or all of these observations, depending on which candidate you’re shilling for, but then you get to the next level and tell me the whole thing is rigged and undemocratic and broken.
So here’s what’s happening: Our political system is profoundly broken, and although many of us have understood that for years, this has been the year that fact became unavoidable. Both political parties are struggling through transparently rigged primary campaigns that have made that ludicrous process look more outdated than ever. Nobody cares about the Democratic vote in Wyoming and it’s not going to matter, but when Bernie Sanders dominates the caucuses in that empty, dusty and Republican-dominated state and wins seven of its 18 delegates, doesn’t that sum up the whole damn thing?
So, now the caucus system favors Hillary because of arcane rules and something called “superdelegates.” Even worse, in a state like Wyoming, Clinton benefited from a dirty trick that allowed those third-shift-multiple-job Democrats to use an absentee ballot. How undemocratic is that?
The conundrum is whether it’s a better system to let committed organizers and party officials have the responsibility for fighting over the leadership of their party, or it’s a better system to have fifty-something different elections, with different rules and different turnout models, and pretend that the ultimate decision rests with the voter who does nothing to build or maintain the party.
People have the constitutional right to vote in the general election, but the party decides who gets to vote in their caucuses and primaries. They get to decide if the vote has more than an advisory role in their deliberations.
You can tell me that this is a rigged system, except it was precisely this system that allowed Barack Obama to overcome the institutional advantages the Clintons had in 2008, when holdovers from Bill’s presidency dominated the DNC and many state and county level positions. And it’s precisely this system that is allowing Sanders to pick up so many delegates in caucus states (Wyoming notwithstanding). Even the party’s proportional allocation of delegates is helping the anti-Establishment candidate in this race, because Sanders is almost guaranteed to get close to 40% of the delegates in every state. That means neither candidate can knock the other one out, and pretty much assures that a modestly strong campaign in a two-person race will be able to go all the way to June.
It’s one thing to debate how the rules that currently exist help or hurt each candidate, but it should be clear by now that the undemocratic aspects of the system cut in multiple ways, sometimes giving Sanders a big boost and sometimes tilting the scales heavily to Clinton. It’s been commonly observed that the black vote favors Clinton, but less often noted that the underclass (more broadly defined) also supports Hillary Clinton. If Bernie Sanders is a low-commitment Democratic Johnny Come Lately, it’s the most ideological Democrats who are his biggest supporters, as well as the ones who have spare time to attend county caucuses or comment on blogs. The low-commitment Democrats in the actual electorate heavily favor Clinton.
Maybe it’s a conundrum why voters don’t vote the way we expect them to, but my conundrum has to do with figuring out the best system for selecting a nominee to a major party. In my opinion, you have a constitutional right to vote among party nominees, but if you want real influence beyond that, you have to get involved.
And that means that we’re always going to have a system where the people with time to get involved have disproportionate influence and can be called the “elite” or “the Establishment.” I’m not convinced this is a bad thing. I’m much more concerned about money distorting our system than dedicated citizens distorting it.
Maybe it’s my background as an organizer, but I want a system built by organizers rather than people who just write checks or show up once every two years for however long it takes them to cast a single vote.
And I don’t think this system disfavors outsiders if the outsiders are good (and early) organizers. I do think it disfavors anyone who thinks they can take over an entire power structure without winning over a substantial part of that power structure to their side, but that’s part of what organizing is all about. Without that kind of organizing, you’re relying on magic, and I don’t believe in magicians.
If our system is really profoundly broken, it’s largely because one side of it has abandoned reason and is now actively working to break it. But it’s also because, even though we will always have elites and elites will always run the government no matter who wins an election, our elites have been doing a terrible job in recent years.
It makes no sense to try to devise a system where politically disorganized and uncommitted people will run our federal government just so we can say that The Establishment has been pushed out. What we need is a better Establishment. Personally, I’ve seen advances in this respect on the left and in the media since I started blogging eleven years ago, but it’s hard to notice when the right has basically put on a suicide vest and is constantly threatening to blow the whole thing up.
I’ll listen to any thoughtful ideas about how to improve the nominating process, but most of the complaints I hear seem misplaced or naive. No one hands power to anyone without a fight, and you have to understand power in order to get any of it.
And that just doesn’t seem like a flaw in the system to me.
Citing Obama over and over again doesn’t make the system any less rigged. The problem IS the elites as you call them.
I’m ready for some sort of parliament in which coalition governments are required. Doesn’t get rid of the elites, but it does, at least, force SOME sort of working together.
Thanks for your comment. You’re aware, aren’t you, that a parliamentary system would result in the average citizen having less of a say in choosing party leadership?
And that coalition governments don’t necessarily “force some sort of working together” (e.g., Italy in the post-WW II era, which had to form a new government pretty much every year)?
yes, I was going to say it’s a couple hundred years late for that, but who knows, …
I how Harper stayed in power with 30odd% of the vote.
Hmmm. How much choice do I have about Debbie Wasserman Schultz?
Send money to Tim Canova. Want the ActBlue link?
“had to form a new government pretty much every year”
IIRC, on average every nine months. BUT, they do have universal health care and their jobs aren’t outsourced to China and India.
Italian unemployment rate: over 11%. Youth unemployment: almost 40%. They don’t have jobs to outsource.
Italy outsources factories to eastern Europe, and the brightest young people expatriate in droves, because of the 1% GOP growth and the sluggish industrial sector.
Another way to look at it is that the current system in some sense serves as a proxy for the challenges that a candidate will face not only in the general election, but once in office – a dizzying array of different rules and customs that must be accounted for, a large team that must be well-organized and closely-coordinated, management of clear lines of communication to the internal team and the larger public, and constant adaptation to rapidly changing events on the ground.
Anyway, since the primary rules and format vary by state, and as far as I can tell most of the current rules/formats have been in place for some time, it would seem that the locals are either happy or at least accepting of whatever their current format is, notwithstanding that to an outsider, the process in any particular state might seem unfair.
Yes,
And you get a glimpse into their personality when things don’t go their way. Debates are very much the same thing. Most look for gaffes and such. But everyone mis speaks. It’s how they act when the opponent disagrees, what’s their body language, do they interrupt, do they attack or calmly rebut? How they act is probably how they will act when having meetings with foreign dignitaries who are not friendly allies.
.
And appealing to the sort of voters who only show up for general elections is…how you win general elections.
Wow,
Great comment.
.
Great comment Boo. It tracks nicely with what John Cole said yesterday (https:/www.balloon-juice.com/2016/04/18/the-whiniest-revolution-ever).
I think a larger issue is the fact that for a lot of people, things are not awesome, but they are not terrible either and much improved from 2008. Yeah I am generalizing based on my little neck of the woods, but not everyone wants to deport millions of people or risk financial termoil by blowing up the banks. My neighbor plans to retire in a few years and, as he put it the other day, “doesn’t want anybody in there who is going to screw things up.” Trump and Sanders seem out there to him. If Hillary does well tonight, I wonder if this sentiment plays a role?
BooMan,
I don’t have any specific suggestions, but you touch on what I think is perhaps a big issue: the lack of consistency between the states.
Why should the process in Wyoming be so different from Michigan, which is so different from New York State, if we’re all trying to get to the same goal, i.e., selection of the party’s candidate?
We can argue about who should have a voice and how much, but I can’t rationalize not only having 50+ different elections, but each election have its own rules quirks.
Making the rules simpler and more consistent across the board would go a long way, at least in my opinion.
do you want to make elections all federal rather than county and state based?
C’mon, that’s not what I suggested at all!
Why do we have caucuses, open primaries, and closed primaries, all with slightly different rules and what-not?
My understanding is that caucuses are less expensive to administer, which is why it is the smaller states that run causes, so I can understand having a caucus in say, Wyoming.
That being said, at least some of the state-to-state rule differences (if not virtually all) seem entirely arbitrary or borne of historical accident, not intended purpose. At least I’ve never heard anyone defend them on the merits.
my point is, they are patchwork b/c they are administered by the counties and states. who is going to institute uniformity except the feds, unless, as someone suggests above, everyone decides to go by some state’s practice. [are you sure you are a USAian? this is our historically oldest issue; it’s intrinsic to our form of gov – I won’t call it a problem]
Like you can vote in the morning in NYC but not in Syracuse? Is these historical justification for that? If Illinois, which ranges from podunk farming communities to a megapolis can have a uniform voting period, thirteen hours in length, why can’t New York?
Yeah. Maybe federal elections should be run to one rule–from the Feds.
That will cut out all this horse pucky from the states. Let them run their state elections subject to SC rules.
You guys are ridiculous.
Please defend, on the merits, today’s patchwork system.
No one suggested, except you, a Federal takeover of the primary system (which makes utterly no sense, given that the primary system is a function of the parties.)
Impossible; there are no merits to today’s system.
While I’m not saying it should go federal, the current system is shit and any discussion that does not allow for this fact to be raised and discussed, and for alternatives to be explored, is not a real discussion of the topic.
Through federal financing, too. Some state parties are too few in members and too poor to put on a bake sale. Starved from state funding, like Az.
They get taxpayer funding in some states. ALL taxpayers.
There are states where the parties have to pay expenses?
Don’t say it loud in Springfield IL. the legislature will adopt it as a budget saver.
this reminds me of an extremely annoying conversation I had a couple years back with a European who, walking on the fighting side of me, said that the USA could be improved by having a national id card.
It could! And the ID number should be an index into a DNA database so identity can be checked. Every baby gets a DNA swab at the hospital/birthing center. Every immigrant and every tourist gets swabbed or verified on entry. The 4th amendment refers to books and papers (e-mail and computer files are a natural extension) not a right to hide your identity.
— Ver is yer papers?? —-
Exactly why I am against it.
And when I am asked for ID I hand them my military retiree card,
why
because it does NOT contain my address, or much other direct personal info like a drivers license does.
But since it is a federal ID every state organization has to accept it.
indeed.
yeh, I think you see where this is going. of course they could save time and just implant a chip on birth.
I would agree: get rid of the caucuses.
Second, have Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina and Nevada all go on the same damned day. They all go first and that allows each state – and the retail politics of the previous twelve freaking months – to still have some primacy. But it’s not two lily white states that squeeze out other voices.
Then have a primary every two weeks in clusters. Oregon, Washington, Kansas, Oklahoma, Georgia, Alabama, Maine and Vermont could be one cluster.
But clearly one set of rules would be critical.
I buy that! Not only are your four states already early states, but they neatly cover the major regions, NorthEast, MidWest, South and West. Not perfectly but much better than today.
As an outsider to your primary process, it strikes me that each state has decided to use a process that reflects its own unique experience or history — some primaries, some caucuses, some open, some closed, etc. The most significant thing is that the Democrats have no “winner-take-all” primaries, so this respects all of the voters in whichever process the state is using. While primaries are I think a preferable route, I can see there is an unsung advantage of caucuses to force campaigns to organize within a state at some depth, which is important particularly in small or low-population states where otherwise the primary turnout could be pretty low. (This makes less sense in a state as big as Washington, however.)
Winner takes all would mirror the national results better. Although, nationally, I would prefer one winner-take-all elector from each Congressional district and the extra two awarded winner take all for the state, although I REALLY would like the other two awarded to the two top votegetters.
You want to cut through all of this and not have such conundrum? Make primaries as inclusive as possible and get rid of the caucuses all together.
But until this happens there are too many barriers for people to feel they can be part of the process and have a say. As it it now, the patchwork quilt of rules and regulations for each state makes this whole process a nightmare.
“Make primaries as inclusive as possible….” Why should Republicans be able to vote in Democratic primaries (or vice versa)?
Grrr, let’s try this:
Democratic, Republican Identification Near Historical Lows
Care to cite any research that this is a real issue, in that it actually allows the “other side” to determine the final candidate?
I’m actually open to either system, but my biggest concern is I don’t like locking out people who register independent.
As a compromise I would propose the following:
Happy?
What’s wrong with same day registration? Why not junk registration completely except for those that still want/need hard copy election information/notices from their election board and the option for an absentee ballot. Spend less on maintaining 20th century voting rolls, etc. and spend more on providing adequate polling locations and equipment on election day(s). (Showing up to vote is probably a good thing because at a minimum is demonstrates engagement in citizenship and community which is being eroded and not to the benefit of the people.)
I don’t have an issue with this in theory, but in practice I feel it would be such a nightmare that the voting disputes we see now would seem pleasant. This nation does such a poor job of getting volunteers ready for the voting process. Adding this to the mix would make things even worse and may even make it harder to vote.
I would be all for same day registration if:
As for completely getting rid of registration, how would that work? I’m not really against it, as I’m not sure in practice how it would function.
Are any poll workers in primary states volunteers? They may not be paid much, but they are paid. Caucuses are run by the parties (at the lowest cost possible) and most of those involved are volunteers (and a high percentage may be recruited within the permanent party apparatus which makes it even worse for challengers).
What’s the point of registration? Voter fraud is so rare that those claiming that spending large resources on registration to verify eligibility to vote are full of it. It’s long been about voter disenfranchisement. And using those public voter rolls for political parties to exploit in their GOTV efforts. It’s archaic in a mass communication world.
Professionalize poll workers by employing them on a regular annual schedule of at least two days a month throughout the year (with much of that time devoted to training and practice) would get rid of your concerns and probably increase the number of applicants.
Not to slam volunteers, but that is part of the problem. Volunteers may not be the best people for a task. Just because I volunteer for something doesn’t actually mean I’m any good at it. If there was a better organizational structure you could put volunteers in jobs that they were best at. This does not happen to any great extent today. Caucuses are an entirely different matter; if it were up to me they would be eliminated. Caucuses can work, but only in a nation where you have a majority of citizens that are actively engaged in the process. The fact that we can’t even get a national holiday for people to vote is a strong indicator of the general lack of importance placed on voting in our society.
I still think you need some form of registration; but it needs to be as open and easy as possible. For example, some states now allow you to register to vote when getting/renewing your drivers license or ID. And I do think that if there was no voter registration you would start to have fraud issues. The amount of ratfucking a campaign could pull is huge. Just because you have almost no voter fraud now doesn’t mean you wouldn’t see it become an issue with no registration in place.
I agree completely with your last point; I am all for this idea and I feel this is just one of many reforms that need to be enacted to get more people involved with voting.
Any significant case of voter fraud I have ever seen or heard of has originated in the COUNTERS, not the voters.
True, but my concern is we would be going into a totally new situation; relying on current data is not helpful. How do you determine fraud without registration?
And while we’re on the subject of fraud by the COUNTERS, er, I mean, the COUNTIES …
http://lawnewz.com/high-profile/breaking-new-york-election-board-denies-responsibility-in-alleged-vo
ter-registration-purge/
Why does inclusive mean you have a right to both ballots? To me it means you have a right to either ballot. And, with modern voting machines you should have the right to do it by secret ballot.
Sorry if my wording was unclear; I did mean it to apply to choosing one primary only. An independent voter would not get to vote in both.
You set up and knock down so many strawmen, I can’t tell if this is another one, but Sanders isn’t killing it with the “most committed Democrats.” He’s killing it with the activist Left, some of whom have nothing but contempt for the Democratic party.
Okay. And then the question becomes: how is it in the self-interest of the Democratic party to nominate a candidate whose followers have “nothing but contempt for the…party”?
And that’s why Sanders ultimately won’t be the nominee. That’s why only a handful of Democrats in Congress and state houses are supporting him. And why he does poorly in closed primaries.
Having so little support in congress, particularly from the black caucus strikes me as very odd.
.
Why?
Or maybe it’s the other way round? Perhaps if the candidate’s followers have “nothing but contempt for the … party”? that might just be because the party is primarily concerned with its own self-interest, rather than with its voters’ interests?
But now that I’ve said that, let’s get something straight. I am a registered Democrat in the State of NY and have been since I was old enough to vote. The Democratic Party is not what it used to be. I’d like to see some changes. If I don’t like how the party is being run, does that mean I have “nothing but contempt” for it? No, it means I want to fix it. Why would I want to fix something I supposedly have “nothing but contempt” for ? So instead of wanting to vote for the party’s annointed, I want to vote for a reformer, who is just as eligible to run as his opponent. This is Civics 101.
I think you will find a good number of prospective voters have nothing but contempt for the Democratic party.
How many people have said they will vote for the nominee, even if it is Clinton? And while holding their nose? And to ensure Drumpf/Cruz don’t destroy the nation? Not exactly strong support. Hell, it isn’t even support for her; it’s people voting their fears that the alternative will be worse than her.
The DNC has rigged this primary from the start. It felt it would be good to have a “token lefty” in the mix to show how inclusive they were (as compared to the GOP). They were not happy when Sanders didn’t stick to the script and just go away after the first few weeks.
So please tell me again how he is only killing it with the left.
urd, you claim that the DNC has rigged the POTUS primary system. Yet downthread, you point out not just that the system is not Federalized, but you don’t think it should or must be.
It’s rather hard for the DNC to “rig” the system when they have very little control of how and when the State Parties run their primaries and caucuses.
As others have pointed out, the current outcome of the primary election is in line with the results of the caucus and primary elections. And if there are some here who remain determined to believe that the Democratic Party superdelegates would be identifying their candidate preferences as they currently are even if Sanders currently had more pledged delegates, the history of the 2008 primary campaign argues strongly against their belief.
How is your first statement relevant? The DNC is not a federal institution, it is one of the main political parties in the US. The system can be rigged by the DNC (or GOP) without any type of federal system.
This statement is not true; it has already come to light that the DNC does have a great deal of control over the state; if for no other reason that the super-delegates have no obligations to represent the wishes of the primary voters in the state. I have also seen numerous articles where the DNC has employed carrot and stick tactics in various states to affect who can vote and when. Is it complete control? No, but it is enough to have a more than just a finger on the scales.
Yes, and that would be all well and good if all of the voting was in an environment where people had a free choice. I’m amazed at how many people discount the affect of all the MSM stories, blog sites, and even the false delegate counts have on the voters. If you keep telling people the person you would like to vote for has no chance to win and you are wasting your vote, do you really think that has no impact? Add in the second prong of this attack: even if your candidate does win she/he will lose in the general election and the US will then have the worst president ever; how could this not affect voters?
So you start out with telling voters that their choice can’t win, and then you terrorize them by saying if their choice does win it will destroy the US.
All the while you get to claim that “people voted their choice” as though nothing had been done to manipulate the hell out of that choice.
what a joke.
First, where you’re right is that the DNC does exert control over when the states hold their primaries, and they can and will punish states that ignore them. Florida and Michigan found this out eight years ago when they scheduled their contests too early. On the other hand, they scheduled their contests when they wanted to, not when they were told to. On the Republican side, states that wanted to go early could not award delegates on a winner-take-all basis. States that were willing to wait, could.
But the rest of your argument is pure garbage. Saying that Sanders couldn’t win in October was argumentative, but saying it in April is just truth-telling. In a democracy, people express their opinions about everything, including who they think is more electable. There are at least as many people saying that only Sanders can win in November because he’s actually popular, unlike Clinton. Should they shut up and stop titling the scales, too?
Pure garbage? High praise from someone who I think is part of the problem I described. What I stated is that once you stack the deck in the MSM, online media, and related outlets you shape people’s perceptions of what is and isn’t possible. It’s not popular to say, but most people in this nation are political sheep. They go with the flow and go with what is popular. Most people have no real interest in the issues, or only have one or two they care about, and are more than willing to vote for the person who is a “winner”. For ugly proof of this, look no further than Drumpf who has only has two real policy positions: I’m a winner and blame anyone who isn’t a true American.
So if you take away all the noise from the talking heads, “experts”, and the like I think you would have a very different environment for people to cast their vote. Instead of Sanders being behind he might be in a dead heat. Now suddenly taking about winning in April isn’t so far fetched. Having a finger on the scale from the very start has a huge impact.
The fact that Clinton is having such a hard time putting this primary away against a so called nobody who has no chance of winning is truth-telling.
But then again I shouldn’t be surprised: you were one of those people that kept saying you supported Sanders, but he had no chance. Ever think that if you, and others like you, and said something different the current situation might be different?
No, I never think that, because I’m not a moron.
I believe the real reason you “never think that” is because it is uncomfortable for you to do so.
you know what’s uncomfortable?
the idea that I should decide what to say based on what I hope will happen.
I look at what is going on and I try to tell you what is going to happen and why it is going to happen, and maybe how you could most effectively try to change what is going to happen. What I don’t do is tell you what I think will deceive you into doing what I hope you will do.
I don’t say to myself, “Gee, Sanders is going to lose badly, but if I tell people he has a real shot, maybe that will improve his chances.”
You might wish I would do that, and you might believe if everyone said that it would make it true, but that’s not how I conduct myself.
If you don’t like it, take a walk.
You’re just wrong.
Registered Democrats can have nothing but contempt for the Democratic Party, but they’re still Democrats. Most of the activist left is registered as Democrats, and in some cases (like Pennsylvania) has to be in order to be heard at all.
And Sanders is winning them decisively. The Democrats he’s not winning are the low-commitment voters who show up in primaries but not caucuses and who aren’t in any way activist or politically engaged outside of election season.
How low does party membership have to go to get folk’s attention?
Looks as if Trump and Cruz forgot to consult with you before beginning their campaigns. The GOP elites are still trying to work out how to dump them, but too soon to tell how that will work out.
You’ve made a good argument for “love it, change it, or leave it” regardless of how unresponsive the DEM party becomes to ordinary people. Those of a certain age didn’t leave and DID expend much effort to change it. Change and acceptable candidates that the DEM machine(s) thwarted again and again and replaced the old guard with an even worse new guard. The number of politicians that were able to “keep the faith” for decades is precisely ONE.
One that resonates for those with long memories and young people able to perceive the crappy world the DEM and GOP have bequeathed to them. One that doesn’t resonate for those that managed to get much of the good that came via the New Deal and not much of the crap from the New DEMs, but are too selfish or narcissistic to acknowledge who and what is paying the price for their privileges.
That “love it or leave it” line raises the hackles of those of a certain age. It’s the voice of the privileged and the old (or RTD) and not of those with rational hopes and the capacity to dream of better for all. IOW — those are the voices of the “enemy of the people.”
So Booman is now “the enemy of the people”?
If Marie3 has correctly captured how BooMan views the situation, then yes.
I’m not saying this is her intent or that she is describing BooMan’s views specifically. But if the concepts she laid out are ones he feels are acceptable to prevent “outsiders” from crashing the party then the answer is yes, he would be an “enemy of the people”.
Don’t think Martin intended to say “love it or leave it.” It just came out that way in his praise for organizing to get inside the tent and his irrational perception that Obama did that. However, once one gets on that slippery slope, it’s not too far away from the days of being a “get off my lawn” geezer.
Irrational.
That’s so funny.
The gold standard of political organizing is now not organizing at all.
What Obama did differently from Bradley or Brown or Dean or Gary Hart or Bernie Sanders is to identify a dissenting and powerful group of anti-Clinton members of the Establishment, led initially by the Senate Majority/Minority Leader Tom Daschle. Using some of Daschle’s staff and all his connections, Obama got his foot in the door and had the opportunity to talk to power brokers and fundraisers and prominent organizers throughout the party.
Then he combined this with the traditional liberal protest coalition and built an organization that became powerful enough to win over the skeptical black vote.
Bam.
He was president. For two terms.
He got started early, identified what he needed, assembled the smarter and more talented operatives, and beat Clinton at the nitty-gritty game from the wards to the DNC boardroom.
It can be done, but not completely from the outside. You have to have at least a substantial faction of the existing power structure in your corner. Obama was playing to win, so he didn’t try magic.
He was a machine. And stayed calm in demeanor.
Then he was president just like that.
.
Booman–Thanks for the succinct description of how Obama succeeded.
It appears that your are dealing with a Catch-22 situation: Anyone who succeeds with an insurgent campaign becomes anathema by dint of his success.
So, there was a split among the party apparatchiks. Big deal. It’s existed for decades or maybe like forever. FDR, JFK, RFK, and Ted Kennedy all worked it from the inside. A correct read of 2004 was that Kerry did as well and that was handed off to Obama in ’08. And it’s historically inaccurate to say that Obama didn’t need magic which I’ll get to in a moment.
In some of those election cycle splits among the elites it was about difference in principles and governing. And some only about power and which faction had it. 2008 fell into the latter category. The party elites split in favor of the Clintons (probably at least by 60/40), and the big money split was probably similar. That left the progressive wing — mostly at the voter and not the elected official level — up for grabs. A wing that had exhibited somewhat more muscle in 2004 with the introduction of on-line fundraising for small dollar donations (an advance on the direct mail donation solicitations that had been pioneered by the GOP but also required permanent operations to keep it going at less cost than what was collected).
Obama nabbed the lion’s share of the pre-existing (and powerless, and therefore, hungry) left wing that was neither inside nor outside. Had net donations (net of solicitation costs) not been transformed in 2004, Obama wouldn’t have been competitive against HRC’s 60% power and money base and with it, he did just barely beat her and that was with the magic. First that AA voters in less cosmopolitan regions would identify with him as a black leader. And once that began that began Bill Clinton pulling out the race card in NH and SC to compensate for that shift and which resulted in a larger shift of AA voters to Obama. Magic that he needed and couldn’t count on materializing.
What you keep overlooking or dismissing is that the left-wing faction of the body politic has been growing since 2000 when it was languishing at 35% of left leaning primary voters. Obama didn’t grow that in ’08 and Sanders isn’t growing it in ’16. It’s there for whoever can step in and credibly lead it. Sanders is credible and Obama was provisional, and that’s why with virtually zero institutional support, Sanders has comparatively done better than Obama did. That will be true today even if Sanders only does as well as the polls have predicted which is exactly what Obama achieved in NY in ’08 with his institutional advantages and his 60+% AA support (16% of those that voted) in the ’08 NY primary .
Yes: What you keep overlooking or dismissing is that the left-wing faction of the body politic has been growing since 2000 when it was languishing at 35% of left leaning primary voters. Obama didn’t grow that in ’08 and Sanders isn’t growing it in ’16. It’s there for whoever can step in and credibly lead it. Sanders is credible and Obama was provisional, and that’s why with virtually zero institutional support, Sanders has comparatively done better than Obama did. That will be true today even if Sanders only does as well as the polls have predicted which is exactly what Obama achieved in NY in ’08 with his institutional advantages and his 60+% AA support (16% of those that voted) in the ’08 NY primary .
Would the economic left even show up at primaries if Obama and Hillary were the candidates again?
were there/ are there any prominent dems not absorbed early into the Clinton juggernaut for Sanders to pick up [besides Amanda Curtis]?
If Sanders is doing well enough, people can detach themselves from the Clinton juggernaut … er. former juggernaut.
true; but I was responding to Booman on Obama organizing the non-Clinton supporting DemPartyfolk in advance. I’d guess that’s why they did the Hillary Victory Fund thing this year.
I’m explaining how outsiders can crash the party, and it’s not by ignoring the hurdles in their way.
And I’m stating that many of the hurdles in the way are corrupt; designed to prevent outsiders from crashing the party. If anything, you’re expecting outsiders to break through a Catch-22 scenario: for outsiders to change the rules they must work within the current rules, but the current rules prevent outsiders from being able to make any changes to the rules. So exactly how are outsiders able to crash the party?
This nation is at a serious crossroads all thanks to this type of slanted, stacked method of selection for those who run for office. Expecting any type of change by using the current system is sheer insanity.
This is the problem with not understanding Obama’s place in the political firmament.
The rules should have favored Clinton in 2008, and she had almost all of the advantages. But using some of the weaknesses that still existed (many of which have also benefitted Sanders), Obama did an end run around the party’s anointed one.
So, instead of a war with Iran, we got a nuclear disarmament agreement. Instead of a shooting war in Ukraine, he didn’t get involved. Instead of a no-fly zone in Syria where we try to down Russian jets, we are living with the tragedy there without getting bogged down in it. Instead of unending conflict with Cuba, we have an embassy there now. Instead of coddling the banks, we have major credit card and college loan reform, and the Consumer Financial Protection Agency which is cracking down on exploitative lenders.
But, whatever, maybe you just want to say “DRONES” and “Larry Summers” and think that passes for a comparison.
So, now we have to same choice we avoided last time, and it’s because no progressive was smart or ruthless or early enough to replicate what Obama did. So, don’t bitch to me about the rules. Bitch about progressives who didn’t find a champion who had what it takes.
I’m afraid you don’t understand Obama’s role in the political firmament.
Clinton had a massive issue with her Iraq war vote, and it cost her dearly. And she made multiple, unforced mistakes that cost her as well; if the was running against a more DNC type opponent, she would most likely be losing now. Finally, she was hardly the “anointed one”.
So instead of a war with Iran we got more involved in Afghanistan, and made things worse in Syria. Instead of a shooting war in in the Ukraine, we waged a proxy war by supporting extreme right wingers that eventually lead to the Crimea being annexed by Russia. Instead of a no-fly zone in Syria we allowed Russia to look better than the US, and demonstrated that we make statements that are poorly thought out. Instead of unending conflict with Cuba, we now face major diplomatic riffs with many European countries over our handing of the NSA leaks. Instead of coddling the banks…wait what? No serious convictions, no real regulations to prevent what happen in 2008 from happening again, no real change in attitude. This one is so far off the mark I can’t even mock it. The credit card and college reforms are modest at best. And the CFPA…really?
This doesn’t even address the following: expansion of the security/surveillance state under Obama, an extremely aggressive campaign against whistle-blowers, least transparent administration in US history, etc. How are these positions any different from what we might have gotten from Clinton?
Maybe you should stop shoving words into my mouth.
Yes, and these choices will led us down the same path…more systemic rot in our political system. Obama was hardly ruthless or smart: he was a great orator that had no problem with letting people believe he was for hope and change when he was really a centrist DNC candidate that had no intention of making any real changes. I call that charismatic and cunning; not the same thing. I can bitch about the rules all I want if they are corrupt. You must have ignored my entire post about how the system it built explicitly to keep any real progressives out. But then again, you appear to think that Obama isn’t a DNC centrist, so I’m at a loss. Right now we are just yelling past each other.
Well, yes, if one insists on entirely discounting the vast improvements in foreign and domestic policies accomplished during the Obama Administration, as urd does here, not only will fhey be shouting past BooMan and other Frog Ponders, they will be shouting past the majority of voters who hold views which place them on the left side of the political spectrum.
I think these views will continue to fail to persuade the large number of people needed to take over the Democratic Party, or the larger leftist political movement in the United States.
The problem here is not the rules of the primaries and caucuses, or the DNC, or other Party institutions.
I don’t discount them, I merely want them in the proper context. In general, comparing Obama’s policies to those of Bush II is a low, low bar. My cat could have done a better job than Bush II by simply being a cat. Which voters are those? I see many of those on the left of the spectrum who have a very conflicted view of Obama; they praise him for some actions and curse him for others. My response to BooMan was simply to make sure that both sides of the record were presented. Something you appear to have an issue with.
I’m not trying to persuade anyone to take over the democratic party; if current trends continue there will be no point. This nation is facing a massive choice; this election is our last chance to have the ability to roll back some of the systemic rot in our political system. We don’t have the luxury of time to “take over the democratic party”. If Clinton, or the GOP candidate, wins the general election, this nation will not last more than 30 years in its current form. And that is an optimistic estimate.
These figures are certainly alarming for our political system. Independents are now 43%, a record high. I look for it to go to 50%, which means we would be governed by minority parties?
http://www.gallup.com/poll/180440/new-record-political-independents.aspx
How do you explain this lack of transparency?
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/obama-administration-sets-new-record-withholding-foia-requests/
And BTW, urd is not shouting past this Frog Ponder. I am open to listening to all views, as I hope everyone is.
Obama was endorsed in the primary by the APWU, described by some as “the last union”, certainly the last powerful nation-wide union. This was historically unprecedented, although the union always endorsed the Democrat in the national election.
In the past, people have excoriated me for suggesting that Obama’s skin color helped him, but it certainly did with the union endorsement and in the Democratic primaries. Yes, it probably hurt in the general.
How can outsiders crash the party?
Well, Sanders did it, didn’t he?
Here’s the paradox. people say, Sanders can’t win because he’s an outsider. But he is winning precisely because he is an outsider.
And actually, he isn’t as much of an outsider as all that. He’s been in the House and the Senate 25 years now — the longest serving independent member of Congress in American history. But all that time he’s caucused with the Democrats.
You know what that means? As far as the party is concerned, maybe he’s not a “real” Democrat. But as far as his constituency, he is. In fact, even more so. Because while the party more and more abandons the Democratic values, he sticks with them and they haven’t been able to pressure him away from that.
Yes,
It’s always been a mystery to me how Sanders, the career politician he is, cannot get anybody he has worked with in congress all those years to support him. Particularly not anybody from the black caucus, seeing as he spent so many years protesting at their side.
It’s a mystery.
.
If I were just guessing, I’d say they take him for granted and he had no power to lend them previously. Is just a guess, though. Wonder if anyone could get a real answer?
Senator Paul Kirk served with him in the senate; he has endorsed him. (Kirk is no longer in office, however.) As you know, Sen. Merkley has also endorsed him.
Reps. Ellison (MN), Gabbard (HI), Grayson (FL), Grijalva (AZ), Kaptur (OH), Lipinski (IL), Peterson (MN), Welch (VT), and Nolan (MN), have endorsed Sanders. As has Brad Miller (NC), who left the House in 2013.
156 current state legislators have endorsed Sanders, along with 38 former ones.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Bernie_Sanders_presidential_campaign_endorsements,_2016
What this tells me is not that Sanders is not popular among his colleagues, but that the Clintons have a lot of clout in Washington.
Ah!
I never realized the Clintons were so powerful. They must be very frightening. Hmmm, another mystery… If the Clintons are so frightening, and have their tentacles in so many places, you would think that politicians would take the opportunity to defeat them by supporting Sanders.
Anybody from the congressional black caucus? Because there is another thing I can’t quite figure out.
Sanders seems to win the states that are….well, extremely white. While Clinton seems to win the states that…well, look like America as a whole. http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/clinton-is-winning-the-states-that-look-like-the-democratic-part
y/
I find this very mystifying, particularly when combined by the lack of support from POC who know Sanders and have worked with him all these years (him making his career in politics and all). I know Sanders supporters here have proposed several answers to this conundrum, like POC not being smart enough to see how great it would be with Sanders, or simply voting in fear, or simply that they only do what their church tells them to do.
So the mystery to me is…what is it about him that resonates with white people, but not POC, particularly POC who know him? I mean, sure, he never in his political career hired a POC for his staff, until he ran for president. That’s probably just an oversight. Or maybe POC are afraid to work for him (because the Clintons will find out), or maybe, as a group, they aren’t smart enough.
It sure is a mystery.
.
Why don’t you save your lame attempts at sarcasm for people like Spike Lee, Ta-Nehisi Coates, Harry Belafonte, Rep. Keith Ellison, Rep. Nina Turner, South Carolina state Rep. Justin Bamberg, Cornel West, Danny Glover, Ben Jealous, Killer Mike, Big Boi of Outkast, and all those MANY AA voters across the country that support Bernie Sanders? I’m sure they would appreciate it.
I won’t even mention the 47% of New York City’s Latinos that just cast their votes for Sanders.
Not counting the tens of thousands of PoC registered Democrats that were purged from the rolls in Brooklyn for reasons remaining to be investigated.
OK then.
Made up numbers and corruption accusations, and ….anger!
Yep, we have a Sanders supporter here.
‘We can say anything we want about Clinton, but say one negative word about Sanders and ….’
.
You’ve got another Sanders supporter here. The U.S. is still a free country and people can support and vote for whom they want.
If one comes at the King….and all that. No? You want to make it all about cause? He has injured them with his votes?
No, sadly he didn’t. The fact that we are in the current situation is proof of that.
And while I hope he can pull of the victories he needs, I have no doubt the super-delegates will still put their votes behind Clinton.
So exactly how has he crashed the party?
By making her WORK for it.
(sarc off)
“One that resonates for those with long memories and young people able to perceive the crappy world the DEM and GOP have bequeathed to them. One that doesn’t resonate for those that managed to get much of the good that came via the New Deal and not much of the crap from the New DEMs, but are too selfish or narcissistic to acknowledge who and what is paying the price for their privileges.”
Wow. So Hillary Clinton supporters are just dismissed as “too selfish or narcissistic to acknowledge who and what is paying the price for their privileges.”
I’d like to know what exactly are the unacknowledged privileges of some of Hillary Clinton’s biggest fans. African Americans, say.
I can’t speak to Marie3’s thoughts on this matter, but in my personal opinion: yes, some Clinton supporters can be dismissed in such a fashion.
And with regards to African Americans, many of them are voting their fears, which is quite understandable. I think it is still a vote against self interest, but I can see the reasoning behind such support.
And on another blog somewhere, someone is writing about how “some Sanders supporters can be dismissed” for some reason or other.
Well, I guess the two camps have something in common after all!
Great response.
And in other breaking news water is wet and fire is hot.
Bill Clinton claims that AAs remain on board with his crime bill. It’s only younger AAs that bristle at being locked up in disproportionate numbers and for disproportionate terms for drug offenses in comparison with the rates for white folks that don’t use/abuse drugs any less frequently than AAs and Latinos. Only younger AAs that object to having some of their own labeled “super-predators.”
There’s always privilege, sometimes only psychic, in being accorded respect as “not like one of those” and/or within the fold of a local political machine and/or within the body of a politicized church. When such leaders, political or religious, are in some way bought off, the ability of individual members to buck their community is further compromised. It’s scary and dangerous to leave what such communities supply to their members. So no, I don’t blame such voters at all. It’s those that exploit the people in such communities that are immoral and the enemy of the people.
Again I ask what exactly are the unacknowledged privileges of some of Hillary Clinton’s biggest fans. You’ve defined privilege in an entirely negative way, as being “not like one of those” scary people. That’s a pretty weak way of defining privilege.
In my opinion, and I think this reflects Booman’s thoughts as well, Hillary Clinton’s biggest fans are the same people who reliably turn out to vote in every election, whereas her biggest detractors are people who probably don’t vote in midterm elections, when the Democrats get their asses handed to them on a plate. Please don’t reply by telling me that this is the fault of the Democratic Party for not fielding attractive candidates. Those Clinton detractors (AKA Sanders supporters, as a convenient shorthand) could turn out to support the Greens, say. But they don’t. They just don’t turn out.
Billmon has been addressing the same thing in his own way at his place today. Here. And Here.
Still waiting for your answer to the question that I’ve posed several times to you. How does a person with 100% name recognition, 60%+ approval rate among the general population, a lock on the DEM institutional powers, and the largest fat cat fundraising base ever find herself one year after the official opening of her campaign slogging it out months into the primary/caucus voting against a man even older than she is, that a year ago had name recognition in the single digits, no campaign that had been in the planning for decades and organizing for several years and no money? That doesn’t even take into account everything else — all her free TV air time (mostly positive) while the MSM did its best to ignore Sanders, the debate schedule that gave her a major advantage, and all the lies, etc. through at Sanders by the HRC camp. Her advantages were similar to, if not better than, what an incumbent POTUS and VP enjoys in a primary contest. Name one of those incumbents in modern times that fell as far as HRC has in when they drew a primary challenger. They were challenged because they were weak incumbent candidates, but they still won their nominations. (Didn’t far so well in the general elections because they were still weak candidates.)
I always vote in primary, midterm, national, and city elections. I even receive a good citizenship card in the mail showing 100%, as compared to my neighbors who average 50%. (shown on the card). I am a Bernie Sanders supporter, so it’s best not to generalize by saying: “But they don’t. They just don’t turn out.” I was taught to vote by my father, who always said on election day: “I’m headed to the polls because I want them to know I’m still out there.” It was good advice. BTW, my first election was 1972 and I worked and voted for George McGovern.
Why do you think President for Life is so popular in some places? Aside from the PE violence aspect.
Obviously not: the black vote for Hillary seems to be a pragmatic thing combined with thinking she’s a lot less hostile to their interests than, say, Republicans. It could even be true.
There’s a ‘wealthy old white’ vote that thinks they are middle class, which is frantically pro-Clinton for self-interested reasons. They sound a lot like Republicans because they’re economically right, socially left. They’re in a position to capitalize on a Clinton presidency, and my, how they know it.
Strategic voters in red states may be registered Republicans in order to spare themselves rule by the crazies. State governments can do as much or more damage on a personal level than federal. Lesser of two evils apply, since Dems have abdicated.
Kansas is a case in point.
Kansas lege is revolting against Brownback. Don’t know if schools will be opening.
I read that! Hope Brownback AND Rauner (IL) go down.
I’ve said before I’d be less pissed off if our elites weren’t crap. Even Bush I’s noblesse oblige was better. A big problem is that elites are generally unaccountable. Thats why I am unsympathetic to the idea of winning over existing power structures. There’s no motivation to change.
What we really need to be able to do is decapitate (metaphorically) our elites once in a while, clear them from the board to let new elites rise up. It doesnt have to be a random member (though I would make a great God-Emperor) but it does have to be people without existing attachments to the top leadership level or legacy dynasties. It takes about 2 generations before you need a new batch.
Nobody is stopping any of the people condemning the Democratic Party elites from migrating over to, say, the Greens. If the sort of passion displayed in comments here were reflected in people’s passion at practical politics, people undertaking that migration would probably find themselves running the Green Party in short order.
I don’t think this is going to happen, however.
There won’t be a migration to (say) the Greens because the people condemning Democratic Party elites still want the easy ballot access that the Democratic Party provides.
Or migrate to our couches.
There won’t be a migration to (say) the Greens because American politics works, with few exceptions, as a two-party system.
An interesting fact about New York is that, with all its onerous voting restrictions, New York actually has a three-party system, and has had it for a long time. But it only works because the third party doesn’t function the same way as the other two.
At the present time that party is the Working Families Party, but when I was a kid it was a different party known as the Liberal Party.
It works because a candidate can run on more than one party ticket in the same election, allowing the third party to run some candidates of its own, who are occasionally viable. But it also works because they exert influence by either adding to or taking away votes from the Democrats.
Even if we took the greens over we’d be fighting the same battle against the same people with the same pearl clutching ‘oh but the republicans!
I agree there are arguments on both sides.
I personally don’t have any problem with SuperDelegates. I view them as just another “primary” especially since most of them have constituencies that they represent that would knock them out if they do anything obscene to the process.
Some minor proposals I would make would be to eliminate caucuses, even in IA. The problem is both that turnout is so low, but the systems are all very opaque and unauditable. In this day and age transparency needs to be first and foremost need met.
The only change I would make to the closed/open primary debate would be if the state wants to have a closed primary that’s fine but they need to notify all voters by mail/email as to the rules and how to register in a particular party well prior to the deadline and the deadline for registration or change party registration should be as close to the actual primary as prudent. I would think 2 weeks would be a good window. That could help protect the party and the let voters have a choice.
While disagreeing with you on superdelegates, I like your other two proposals.
If proportionality is your interest, the primaries aren’t half bad. According to the Green Papers, Clinton has 9.4 million votes (~56%) while Sanders has 7 million (~42%). The delegate count is 54% for Clinton and 46% for Sanders.
Caucus estimates aren’t included in the total vote tabulation (I don’t think). Even the most lopsided tally of the caucus vote would only move the needle sightly in Sanders’ direction. In the most optimistic scenario for him, we’d be looking at the delegate count almost exactly approximating the popular vote so far.
In other words, I understand the criticism that the process is imprecise. Certainly, first hand reports support that criticism. But, for the Democrats at least, the primary results have been surprisingly accurate in terms of representing the proportional vote, at least on the national level. I think that’s remarkable since the primaries are, by necessity, organized on a state level with minimal funding or advanced preparation.
I am “one of the people” and I am a Democrat. Can someone please explain to me why it is that Independents get to vote in party primaries? And why it is that someone can choose on primary election day to pick which primary they want to vote in? Seems like a set up for strategic voting in a situation where a party (a club) is engaged in selecting it’s standard bearer.
It’s largely a general election strategy, where getting people to vote for your candidate in the spring increases the likelihood that they’ll vote for them in fall.
It’s also a party building exercise where state parties are smart enough to at least require registration but make it super-easy, like same-day.
It’s not intended to be little ‘D’ democratic, as party nominations are still an internal affair, and that’s why the nomination is decided by delegates, not the popular vote.
Thanks for the reply. However, I actually don’t understand the general election strategy. Asking someone to change from Ind to Dem before election day is a commitment and would, therefore, be a general election strategy. Being able to choose which ballot you want on election day if you’re an Independent, doesn’t do that. It lets you be a waffler or a strategic voter, like folks I know in MA who voted for Trump because they thought he would be easier to beat. Asking someone to change their registration of for a $3 donation does more for commitment, IMHO.
people really don’t like polling taxes because of the historical way they were used to disenfranchise blacks. So, even if it’s only for an internal party leadership vote, it’s not viable.
As for commitment, it’s not all about personal motivation. It’s also about building a voter contact list. The more people participate in the spring, the more people you’ve identified as probably supporters who you can then focus on getting to the November polls.
If you are willing to forego any funding through the state, go ahead.
“Estimates suggest over $400 million was spent by taxpayers in 2012 to fund primary elections alone; tax dollars that come from voters who the parties actively prevent from participating in the process. In closed and semi-closed primary states, only voters who affiliate with a particular political party can vote in the primary.”
I’m sure the states would be grateful.
Are you willing to forego the general election votes of INDs? Or even wavering members of the Republican party?
The largest group of voters today don’t want to be members of your club or the other big club and an even larger group declines to participate in voting at all. Maybe they don’t like the candidates the clubs offer for POTUS. Maybe they don’t like either the candidates or the public policies that the clubs offer; a different shade of gray doesn’t appeal to everybody.
The biggest reason for not voting that I hear is “it’s all fixed anyway”. And here we find people being vituperative in support of fixing. That’s why you see so many people supporting Trump. it’s easy to dismiss them as crazy or racist, but by and large these are the disenfranchised and self-disenfranchised that don’t understand government well if at all, but know that they are being bent over by BOTH party elites and gravitate toward Trump because he echoes their complaints, BECAUSE he’s an outsider, It’s why so many times (not universally) if you talk with a Trump supporter and mention Sanders they will say “Oh! He’s good too!” Why is Trump their first choice? Because, despite what the Hillarybots here say, Bernie has been restrained. Trump is unrestrained and talk in the crude profane manner of his supporters. This repulses me in a candidate but endears others. Like Hillary affecting a Southern accent and expressing a fondness for grits in the South. Now, in heavily Latin territory she claims to love hot sauce. It’s just Latino flavored grits. Has she put on a New Yawk accent? Or is she trying to sound Latino? In California, it will be what? Neutral accent and organic lettuce?
It actually seems like someone who is worried the party’s chosen candidate is actually unpopular with the average voter and is afraid the riff-raff will crash the party and ruin things.
In defending North Carolina’s onerous voter ID law, lawyers cited New York:
Follow Ari Berman
Good post, BooMan.
In an ideal world, we’d have a compressed primary schedule; maybe beginning in mid-late April with clusters of primaries occurring on a weekly basis. The current order could even be maintained, I don’t care. It just shouldn’t take so damn long.
A conundrum you say? Indeed. We have two major political tribes in 50 states and each apparently makes its own rules – in those states. Any group will try to control access and the process, and it will want to ensure they have some control over the outcome. So it makes sense that one must get involved as you say if you want the club to support you, or even let you in. Someone once told me, that if you want to get involved, just show up at the local meeting and the old men there will welcome you. That is a start. You got it from there.
I think the best we can do is simplify it as best we can. But since it is a private club there is no guarantee they will take your advice. I would suggest open primaries in all states. Declare what party you want and go vote. And kill the caucus. The democratic super delegates may be a really great idea, but do we really need 718 of them? Sounds like overkill to me. Now about the money….
Voter Suppression is…
when you would be 42 years old, if you had stayed in the state of your birth before you’d be able to vote in this country and that’s AFTER you put on the uniform and put your life on the line for said country
when you attempt to register people to vote and wind up with a cross burning on your lawn
when you have a Bachelors and Masters degree, and are asked to inform the registrar – how many bubbles are in a bar of soap.
or how many jelly beans are in that jar.
or to recite the preamble to the U.S. Constitution..
and, even after you’ve done that, you are asked to recite the Declaration of Independence – verbatim.
Or, you have to take a test, on your state’s constitution, that lawyers, registered to practice law in your state – don’t know….
Or, being told that you can get a ‘ Free Voter ID’, but in order to get the ‘ Free ID’, you have to spent Hundreds of $$$$, and make numerous trips to various agencies to get the paperwork for the ‘ Free Voter ID’
ALL of the above is voter suppression.
What is NOT Voter Suppression?
You being too fucking lazy to know the ins and outs of VOTER REGISTRATION DEADLINES.
You being too arrogant and believing that the laws, which have been in place – FOR YEARS – should be changed, because, well, of YOU.
They didn’t just come up with a closed primary in New York last week, last month, or last year.
And, if ‘offends’ you to register with a political party…that is YOUR RIGHT.
But, sit down, shut THE PHUCK up, and wait for you turn to vote in November.
If you don’t like that there is no Early Voting – get the legislature to change it.
If you don’t like that there is no ‘ No Reason’ Absentee – get the legislature to change it.
If you don’t like that it’s a ‘closed Primary’ – get the legislature to change it.
If you don’t like that there is no Election Day Registration – get the legislature to change it.
IF you have not spoken up before about these things…then go somewhere and STFU.
i don’t see how it’s not voter suppression just because it hasn’t been changed — or yet to be changed. Kind of hard to get it changed when entrenched Republicans and Dems are fine with things the way they are — and when people are tut tutting and determine what is and what is not suppression.
Now, according to SCOTUS it’s not voter suppression. Of course, there were dissents in that specific case that is specific to NY. And they included Thurgood Marshall and William Brennan.
Like Marie, I lean towards abolishing registration altogether, and have argued that on this blog for a long time. I’ll try to find the thread of TarheelDem and I have a conversation about that and why registration is nothing but suppression in and of itself.
That “getting the legislature to change it” is the Catch-22 in this argument. Just voting for new legislators doesn’t do it. There is a huge precinct up to state-level slog that activists must go through just to get one part of the system changed.
Most people just try to figure out what to do and let the system roll on.
Congrats for such a self righteous post.
Yes, all of the items you cite as voter suppression are just that, and they are all horrible. And well stated. But your condescension is quite apparent when your tone changes to items YOU don’t feel are voter suppression. You don’t attempt to treat them as serious issues for discussion. I love the use of:
As Seabe pointed out, just because it hasn’t been changed, or yet to be changed, doesn’t take it off the list of laws that can be viewed as voter suppression. You hit many of the hot button, and ugly voter suppression issues that all would agree are horrible and shouldn’t be in place. But you missed badly when you came to ones that can be more subtle and harder to attack directly.
And telling people to “sit down, shut THE PHUCK up, and wait for your turn to vote in November” is insulting and dismissive.
With regards to your suggestions:
You handwave away the issue that many states are hostile to all the items you tell people to “get the legislature to change it”. At best you come across as uninformed. At worst you come across as someone who couldn’t care less about voter rights.
And if I have spoken up about these issues AND been told to STFU? What is your solution to that?
Live today voter suppression observed.
The half of the people on this site that don’t see anything wrong with this were furious a few years ago when it was done to suppress DEM votes in the general election. Those furious today were also furious when the GOP was doing it, but we’re more inclined to evaluate elections through principles and not partisanship.
Stuff like this just makes me feel ill.
How are people okay with this?
But they’re just complaining!
Getting to be a trend…incumbents selecting their voters, one way or another.
I hope this is where NY values kick in
“and, even after you’ve done that, you are asked to recite the Declaration of Independence – verbatim. “
I would go along with doing that – if the crackers had to do it to! Can you certify a state election that had only say 100 eligible voters?
I hope by STFU, you didn’t mean “just accept it and keep your mouth shut”, because that’s not what the people who ended those abuses did.
I do sympathize. I feel that way about people who call name calling “bullying”. They should be subjected to real bullying or STFU.
In the United States, we do not understand our political system or the norms for what our political system should be because of multiple understandings of the political system.
The first understanding is what one picks up from parents, news media, peers, and other informal sources. The notion of “free country” much in vogue in the 1950s was a contentious one as to its meaning. Free as in speech vs. free as in beer is a stumbling block even with today’s libertarians and their Tea Party. Free to exploit my employees is of the free as in beer version.
The second understanding is what state legislatures mandated school systems to teach you as civics. Is it likely that in New York, they teach the ins and outs of New York election law in civics class so that all students know how to navigate the arcane system? Likely not. What civics classes give is a utopian version of the “American system” of free elections and free enterprise (and anti-communism).
The third understanding is what most students of at least introductory courses in political science come out with. BooMan’s statement quoted above is from that understanding. This is when the facts of adult life about power are disclosed to the naive youngsters infatuated with the great American system of democracy. Frank Kent’s The Great Game of Politics, although written in the era of the great urban machines of the 1920s is still relevant today–even to the ways of rigging elections. This system was what the Progressive Era railed against as “corrupt” and it truly was and is. The people’s will is subverted to power, profit, status, and often sexual conquest as well. But uncommitted people (to use BooMan’s phrase) are fascinated with the trappings of corruption — else neither Martin Scorcese nor Quentin Tarantino would have had a box office success. For good or ill, the media for twenty-five years have cast the Clintons within this frame of fascination. Trump clearly is playing deliberately to this fascination. And it no doubt is part of the appeal of the Queen of England and the politics that emerged from the family of rumrunner Joseph Kennedy. Not to mention the fascination with Chicago politics.
But then there are those pesky Federalist Papers and all that talk about the will of the people. What exactly does that sort of democratic power mean if not that government can be checked and balanced to deliver straightforward results that the voters want to see?
When people complain about the establishment, they are generally referring to a self-serving power elite that has hijacked the political process to deliver results that are not straightforward services to the people. They are generally complaining about turning economic power into untoward political power or political power into untoward economic power or both into unearned status. When people complain about the establishment, they are complaining about a group that sets itself up in perpetuity instead of allowing a circulation of responsibility through positions of power. They are complaining of a departure from the New England idyll of town meetings and local governance that shaped the Civics tradition taught in public schools and fuels the nostalgia that has pervaded the media since postal delivery made possible the spread of newspapers and magazines in the 1840s and common schools spread literacy. Is this not what we think we are exporting to the rest of the world as “democracy”?
There are some fundamental questions we rarely ask about how our government operates.
How do we imagine the social conversation operates that gives mandates to the representatives elected to turn those into legislation and appropriations? How exactly does the representative know the will of the people? Yep, the simulacrum right now is focus groups and opinion polls, but is that an adequate political conversation?
Why political parties? What do they contribute to governance? It is clear for self-designated candidates for office parties are a way of cost pooling, branding, and sharing other marketing expenses? They are conspiracies for filling candidates over the geography and keeping power over time, as Madison and Jefferson schemed to have Virginia be the “mother of Presidents of the United States” forever. And New York would not be denied its turn, and then Ohio, and then California.
Primaries first arose when party leaders where deadlocked over who to move forward. In one-party states and cities, reformers sought primaries to break open diversity of views or supplant an old power structure with a new one. Sometimes parties sought primaries to have a chance to defeat the opposite party in a deadlocked jurisdiction.
It is likely not a coincidence that primaries appeared at the same time as successive competition tournaments like the World Series in which 8 teams became 4 became two and the final event chose the champion. The idea of a head-to-head qualifying and final competition matched the idea of voter choice and breaking the existing corrupt relations in the cities and states.
A democratic system seeks to convert its citizens to being politically organized and committed to its survival and effective operation. Corruption in the system aims to discourage effectiveness and motivation so as to allow privileges to flow without accountability and encourages cynicism and apathy.
The right is the establishment’s current firewall against change. It pays very good money to keep the gerrymanders and the disinformation going to preserve this firewall. The problem that the Democratic establishment has not dared grapple with is how to defeat its appeal to ordinary people who are sucker punched with phony issues and led by their prejudices.
And in state after state, the corruption of Democratic politicians has been an Achilles heel that has allowed Republican capture by even more corrupt politicians. The succession of Mike Easley and Bev Perdue in North Carolina that opened the way for the election a GOP legislature and then of Pat McCrory is a key example. The election of Rauner in Illinois is another one.
Developers, real estate companies, liquor and beer dealers, and the major employers in a state are the sources of funds in this corruption. The corporate and “professional” associations are the lobbying forces that deliver corrupt funds as are private lobbying firms and established lawyers.
When you talk about having a fight against these interests, I’m not sure what tactics are available at the moment to turn the tide before disaster.
All most people have are their votes and their time in either persuasion or direct action. The most frequent routes to defeat are co-option and repression.
The nominating process for offices need not be partisan so long as commitments are clearly identified. But if it is not partisan, it must have safeguards that do not allow big-money or organized partisanship to cancel out thoughtful individual choices. That is, electability must not override policy choices as key determinants of voting. Electability can be faked. Policy positions can be lies.
Voters need sufficient information about candidates, sufficient exposure to the way candidates operate, and a short enough time period not to lose interest from phony controversies. And need to understand how the candidates intend to affect their lives with legislation and policies.
The US Constitutional system is in a major crisis at the moment. The major loss if it goes down is the normative value of the Bill of Rights and the post-Reconstruction amendments. If the Enlightenment discussions of Thomas Paine and others did anything it was make those normative principles common sense and objects of global political movements. Too much pragmatism loses that remaining legacy.
Oh, they are waaaaay past pragmatism. It is down to faith-based market solutions. And don’t look too hard at the results.
And in other news of the day:
Wonder whose fingerprints are on that one. That’s more substantial than the 90,000 purge Jeb Bush did to win Florida for W.
The view from the actual left:
Matt Karp, Jacobin: Against Fortress Liberalism
That “willing to pay more taxes” chart refutes the propaganda, don’t it?
This is not the American electorate of 1992.
Funny that eh?
Yes the current system is alive and well!
Just ignore the latest news out of New York.
What a fucking joke.
Well, if we could redo the whole system (we can dream…) I would like to see uniform, consistent rules for all the states. Maybe along the lines of:
This system would provide for uniform access to the ballot, probably increase voter participation and still gives time for an insurgent candidate to develop. Yes, we are probably talking a constitutional amendment here. Actually, I think constitutional amendment is probably the only realistic way you ever even end the Iowa/New Hampshire “first in the nation” crap.