When her campaign chairman John Podesta was asked if Hillary Clinton will consider any women as potential running mates, he could answer only one way. That doesn’t mean that I think Podesta answered dishonestly or that he wasn’t serious, but it wasn’t an option to say, “No, there are no women that Hillary would consider as her running mate.”
So, this seems like an artificial conversation that’s driven less by the ostensible point of the story than by a sense that Clinton now has the nomination wrapped up. It’s basically a “so, what’s next?” type of news cycle story.
But it’s in the news now, so let’s discuss it.
The name Elizabeth Warren immediately leaps to everyone’s mind, and I’m sure that’s good for clicks. And, yes, you can make a good argument for Warren. It would very much please Sanders’ base of supporters and help unify the party. It probably shouldn’t, though. It’s been said that the vice-presidency isn’t worth a warm bucket of spit, and while that depends on what the president asks their junior partner to do, that’s kind of the problem. Sen. Warren is poised to be a real leader in the next session of Congress, and paired with a now super-famous Sen. Bernie Sanders and other up-and-coming progressives like Sherrod Brown, Jeff Merkley, and Brian Schatz, she could exert a tremendous amount of influence.
For the sake of argument, let’s assume that Warren wouldn’t agree to be on the ticket unless she gained some assurances about her role, and that her role would include doing things that are high on the Sanders agenda. Those assurances could be rescinded, or rendered inoperative by events. She’d never have a role as big as Dick Cheney’s because Hillary Clinton isn’t an unprepared boy wonder who has no idea how to carry out the job on her own. And, it’s true that Joe Biden has done some important things, like overseeing the stimulus infrastructure spending and the new push for cancer treatments, I don’t think those are the kinds of things that would maximize Warren’s influence or be the best use of her talents.
There’s also the issue of succession. We’ve just had two vice-presidents in a row who were essentially too old to run for the presidency after serving for two terms as second fiddle. Warren is about to turn 67 years old, and would be 75 on election night in 2024. If you really want her to be president and aren’t satisfied with Clinton, then the time for Warren to run for president is in four years, as a challenger to President Clinton. I’m not saying that’s something Democrats should encourage or welcome, but I’m basically talking about whether hardcore in-need-of-reconciliation Sanders supporters should actually be excited by Warren getting on the ticket.
You might argue that the selection of Warren would at least signal that Clinton had heard the criticisms and understood what almost half of the party is trying to tell her, and that could be true. But I don’t think that JFK signaled anything like that when he chose LBJ as his running mate. Or, maybe he did signal that, but he certainly didn’t mean it.
To my way of thinking, Warren on the ticket would mean that she’d no longer have influence in the Senate, that she’d lose her ability to be an independent and critical voice, and that she’d be less likely to be president some day.
But would she at least help Clinton get elected?
On that, yeah, I think she probably would. Hopefully, Clinton doesn’t need the help, but a unified and happy party is a good thing, particularly when going up against a party as badly splintered as the Republicans. Warren speaks to the mood of the country in a very effective way. I don’t know if she’d flip any states, but I imagine that she’d help put New Hampshire out of reach. On the other hand, she’d be much more popular nationally and within the party than the candidate at the top of the ticket, and that’s not ideal.
There are two other considerations. Does she get along with the Clintons? You know, would they trust each other and be a good team? This would matter both during the campaign and, if they won, in the White House.
Finally, can the Democrats afford to lose her Senate seat? Massachusetts has a Republican governor, and while it might be possible to win the seat back in the first special election, the Scott Brown phenomenon showed that nothing is assured. Control of the Senate could hang in the balance, and there’s always the filibuster to overcome.
There are other women who would be excellent running mates. Some would be replaced by Democratic governors, like Amy Klobuchar or Patty Murray. Some would be young enough to run in 2024. Some might have more appeal in a key swing state, or have a better personal relationship with the Clintons.
I will say that I like the idea of a two-woman ticket. It reminds me of what Bill Clinton did by choosing another southerner of roughly the same age to run with him. Rather than seek regional balance as JFK, LBJ, Carter and Dukakis had done, Clinton doubled down and amplified the brand.
In a way, a Clinton-Warren ticket would do that. I definitely think it would be a winning ticket, but I don’t think it’s necessarily something that progressives should hope for.
Personally, I’d like Warren to stay right where she is.
Yes, God forbid that Clinton the Second’s magnanimous reign be challenged by some usurper from the North!
What?
You wrote: “If you really want her to be president and aren’t satisfied with Clinton, then the time for Warren to run for president is in four years, as a challenger to President Clinton. I’m not saying that’s something Democrats should encourage or welcome…”
May I ask why Democrats shouldn’t encourage and welcome a truly progressive leader rather than someone so deep in the pocket of Wall Street that she has to stand on tiptoe to see out of it?
Is a second Hillary term hers by the divine right of queens?
Let’s see if you and others who feel this way would retain a hunger to support a candidate to primary Hillary in 2020 when all viable candidates for that role, Sanders and Warren included, begin to campaign for Hillary in 2016.
How about if we get thru the primary and general elections and see how the first term begins before we start assuming True Progressives will need to vanquish a President Clinton. She’s got a legislative and policy advocacy record, one that is not as one-sided as you believe.
Please!!!
I will grant you this:
She’s got a legislative and policy rhetorical record that is quite impressive. But what she’s really done?
Not. So. Much.
Why? How? Because…just as is Obama…she is owned and operated by the people who have supported her financially. That’s why.
My “proof?” The proof is in the pudding. They keep the money rolling in, just as they have since Clinton I began his climb to prominence. That’s going on thirty years, centerfielddj. These people may be criminal in many respects, but they are emphatically not stupid criminals. If she wasn’t taling care of business for them, they wouldn’t continue supporting her to the tune of untold millions and millions of dollars.
WTFU.
AG
Go look at her full Senate voting record on domestic policy and get back to us.
Comments are individually submitted and each person speaks for him/herself. “get back to me” would be the appropriate terminology, not “get back to us.”
Oh, I know she’s not one-sided. She considers the Trans-Pacific Partnership both 1) the “gold standard” of trade agreements and 2) not meeting her “high bar”. (Depending on where she is in the election cycle.)
I didn’t understand your point. I thought you were saying that the veep would be a challenger or something.
Now that I understand your point, I’m open-minded about it, but I’m not going to start calling for a 2020 primary challenge this prematurely.
So, no, I am not saying that it would necessarily be welcome to have a Warren primary challenge in 2020 or that Democrats should be calling for one before Clinton even accepts the nomination.
But I could definitely see myself making that case at a more appropriate time, depending on circumstances, of course.
It’s a reductionist, dumbed-down interpretation of what you were saying, but there’s definitely a kernel of truth there.
I don’t know how “reductionist [and] dumbed-down” it is, priscianus jr. I think it’s a quite legitimate query, myself.
AG
This query:
AG
Very simple. Because as senator, she could really do stuff. You have the makings of a coalition in the senate, a Democratic senate, with huge popular support — Sanders, Warren, Merkley, others.
As veep, Hillary would keep her bottled up and she couldn’t do much at all. And just the very fact that she wouldn’t be in the senate (except to break ties, which any veep can do.)
I did say, though, that it had a kernel of truth — namely, that Hillary WOULD keep her bottled up, while at the same time using her as a fig leaf for what she really wants, which is just the opposite of what Warren wants. But she would derly love to co-opt Warren, and having her as veep would be a great way to do it, if Hillary could stand it. Fortunately, I fon’t think she could.
Have you not noticed Debbie Wasserman-Schults’s not very subtle maneuvers against Warren’s Consumer Protection bureau lately? DWS = the real Hillary.
I didn’t understand the comment at all.
I guess the commenter is the best one to explain it, but I at least assumed I understood it. It all depends on what he meant by “usurper from the north.” I took that to refer to Warren, who is “from” Massachusetts, even though she’s really from Oklahoma. But looking at it again, I suppose he could have meant Sanders, in which case I suppose the “usurper” reference would allude to the idea of his getting to pick the vice-president.
I don’t see any great difference in the general meaning of the two interpretations, since they both refer to Warren, the first directly, the second indirectly.
I think the comment reflects a crude idea of how politics works. (Although Hillary’s own understanding might not not be too much more subtle.) But the kernel of truth to it is that Sanders obviously represents a challenge to her power, and potentially so does Warren, although up to now Warren’s necessarily been very discreet about it.
She is the only female Democratic senator (I think there are 15, if memory serves) who has not endorsed Hillary; but she hasn’t endorsed Sanders either. That’s as far as it goes, and now we can see how wise a policy that was.
What this crude thinking reminds me of is the bafflement and even dissillusion of a great number of Sanders suporters at Warren’s failure to endorse Sanders.
It’s the whole principle of “political capital” — Warren has more political capital than probably anybody in American politics, but Bernie (having been in a position to take a very different approach) is a close second. They’re not going to blow it now, when they’re going to really need it.
Warren has more political capital than probably anybody in American politics,
Errrr…no.
She has zero political capital. She cannot pass a bill, she is not a regulator of any industry, she is not a Governor, and she represents one state. Sure, she can give speeches, but very few listen. Really, her ‘constituents’ are those she represents, and some serious progressives who listen to her.
Her haranguing people on YouTube videos is about the extent of her ‘political capital’.
.
If she has no political capital, then why did Booman even bring her up? Boo’s not a political novice. I just recently participated in a 30,000 person telephone conversation with Elizabeth Warren about the Republican’s obstinate behavior regarding the next Supreme Court nominee. The next day, we bombarded our Republican Senator’s offices with phone calls.
And I see that lead to a hearing, and soon to be a vote!
karl, you proved my point.
.
Just another one of countless examples that you haven’t got a clue what the fuck is going on.
Would Merkeley help unify since he’s the Senate’s only Bernie endorser?
He’d be a great pick.
I’d miss him in the Senate, too, though.
The thing about Merkley vs. Warren is mainly about firepower. Warren is so much more famous and dynamic.
We need him in the senate too.
I’d have less problems with Merkley being VP than Warren.
Young enough to run after Hillary whether 4 or 8 years.
He’d probably run more in the style and substance of Bernie and of course that is good
Also his replacement probably wouldn’t be a repug,
maybe just maybe somebody like;
Ted Wheeler;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Wheeler
He’d be a good addition to the US senate if Jeff Merkley gets the VP nod.
I’m with you on this one. I’d hate to lose Warren as a Senator to an almost ceremonial role as the VP.
At the same time, it is compelling to put her on the ticket.
I think she needs to pick a youngish up and comer. Westerner would be nice, because the whole Sagebrush Rebellion nonsense is going to hit the fan around 2018.
Who? I have no idea.
.
I have no problem with Warren, but Hillary won’t need Massachusetts to win. I would rather she pick someone who gives her a good shot to win a state that she might have trouble winning, (Texas, Florida, Ohio)
Hillary will likely not win any of these states, regardless of who the VP candidate is. Al Gore didn’t win his own state of Tennessee in 2000 and that was 16 years ago. Things have doubled-down more since then.
Pretty sure she’ll win Florida and Ohio.
John Kerry lost both of those states in 2004. Obama won Florida in 2012 by .88% and received 50.67% of the vote in Ohio. Additionally, voter suppression laws have been passed recently in both states. Republicans hold the governorship, house, and senate in both states. Not friendly for Democrats.
But, esp. in FL, factor in demographic change.
What do you mean by that? Are you implying that Florida will go Democratic because of demographic changes? One demographic that is changing in Florida is that the population is getting older and Florida continues to attract retirees. The 65+ people vote more than any other age group and they vote Republican more than any age group.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/07/09/where-do-the-oldest-americans-live/
Um…no.
Not on my wish list.
I prefer Senator Warren in the Senate.
Amen to that! Please, please, people, leave my senator alone! She’s doing a great job where she is, she’ll continue to be a powerhouse there, and if any of you think Governor Baker would replace her with a Democrat, you’re nuts. He’s a pretty decent guy for a Republican, but that ain’t gonna happen.
I understand completely about losing either Senate seat, but part of the value of having Sanders do well is to push things as far to the left as possible.
Sacrificing Warren’s seat would be worth it I think. A progressive VP, and in Warren’s case a possible future President, could really help shift the current balance at the national level if she could influence policy. And the gift of Trump this cycle means it would take political malpractice to fail to really crush Republicans at all levels in the fall. This is an opportunity.
Sacrificing Warren’s seat would be worth it I think.
No it wouldn’t especially if we got a 51 49 senate that still included Yertle the Turtle as majority speaker.
A sitting repug governor isn’t gonna nominate any democratic person for her position if he could help it.
Also Warren can do much more positive in the senate then she can in a job where Hillary at her whim can neutralize her.
Warren could be in the senate for decades, with luck to Strom Thurman’s age.
in Warren’s case a possible future President,
In eight years she’d be older than Bernie is right now, the oldest President ever inaugurated was ray-gun and he was 69, Hillary is pushing that one, but not by six years.
if she could influence policy,
With the Clintons in charge?
Please.
“To my way of thinking, Warren on the ticket would mean … that she’d be less likely to be president some day.”
But isn’t another of your points that that ship has essentially sailed, anyway? Whether as VP or a Senator, she would be too old in 8 years.
not in 4 however.
The only ways that Warren would be a compelling candidate in 2020 ae these two:
1-HRC totally fucks up as president.Totally!!!
2-HRC gets seriously sick and/or dies as president.
Are these things that you envision as likely to happen?
If so…why would you support her?
AG
Are you not getting enough blood to your brain?
Some of the comments on this site lately are seriously giving me the urge to just quit blogging because the stupidity of even the most engaged people is just demoralizing to me.
I don’t know how much more I can take.
Maybe I need some time off.
Do you know, after all this time, who I supported in this campaign?
Do you know which faction of the Democratic Party I have opposed since Day One on this blog?
Do you know who I will vote for on Tuesday?
Do you seriously think that I am going to consider voting Republican or third-party in November?
Why do you say these things?
Do you understand literally nothing that I write?
Has it never occurred to you that I would be very open-minded about a progressive primary challenge in 2020 if I thought it was serious and capable of winning?
Or that I’m not even talking primarily about what I want, but about what people who reflexively want Warren on the ticket should want if they were thinking more clearly?
You write;
No, Booman, I am sorry to say that I do not. You parsed your statements on the subject over and over again so thoroughly that…as you say, “after all this time”…I do not have a clue. Not really. The only thing of which I am totally sure is that you support the Democratic Party as it now stands.
No. Which “faction,” Booman? There have been so many!!! The one most likely to get elected, seems to me. You are nothing if not a practitioner of practical politics.
No. Pray tell us.
And why, while you are at it.
No. Even if there was a third party that espoused real progessive values as I understand them, I do not believe that you would vote for it. Why? because, as I said above…you are nothing if not a practitioner of practical politics. That’s really not a put-down, Booman. I am not. Not short-term, anyway. That shouldn’t be a put-down, either. Sometimes what “wins” is really what has lost. Or what has been lost.
Which things, Booman?
Do you really think that? I “understand” through my own filters, just as do you and just as does everyone else.
Once again the practical (short-term) political mantra…”Serious and capable of winning.” The problem with short-term thinking like this is that support for something like the Sanders campaign…and I mean “support,” not just some sort of intellectual appreciation…has to start well before it is seriously capable of winning.
You “want” this :
And…as I suppose it is true for almost all of us…the “think more clearly” part should be translated as “think more like the way that ‘I’ think.”
Well…’I’ disagree with the way that you are thinking.
Sue me.
The (cough cough) “neoliberalism” of the Clinton I and Obama years…a promised gradualist approach to solving the nation’s Big Corp-induced ills…has failed miserably. Blame the RatPubs is you so desire, but do not deny that failure. ‘I’ say…”Start now. Throw the bums out no matter to which party they profess fealty.” That is essentially what Sanders was saying, and I agree. He failed? Yes, apparently he did. But…he made a big dent in the system, just as Trump is making on the other side of that system.
Tree gotta be chopped down, Booman. It’s rotten. “Chop chop chop” from the left; “chop chop chop” from the right.
HRC, the DNC and the Democratic Party as a whole are not doing that. Any support for them…any support whatsoever…only serves to postpone the operation. Better to get started now than to see the whole forest die from lack of action. The rot is contagious.
That’s my take on it, anyway, and I stand by it.
Later…
AG
Rem acu, as Jeeves might say, tetigisti.
I’d have a much easier time accepting your criticism if you actually understood me.
I don’t care that we don’t share the same values, but the problem is that you don’t get why I put pragmatism over long-term idealism.
And it’s at least partly because you don’t care about what I’m trying to protect so you don’t have the ability to see that my entire political being is an defensive mode, and has been all along.
I’ll use just one example, but it’s not exhaustive. It’s just familiar and easy to explain.
The SCOTUS.
If instead of Scalia dying he was still alive…
And if the Republicans win the presidency…
And if Justice Kennedy then retires….
There will be a 5-4 majority for overturning Roe v. Wade.
There would also be plenty of other bad decisions that go the other way, too, with a movement conservative replacing Kennedy on the bench.
So, what the left in this country has to do is stop the conservative judicial tidal wave just short of their goal line, after 40 years of it crashing in and eroding the shoreline.
Some other people can sit back and discuss how to rebuild the beach afterwards, but without people on the rampart with sandbags, this fucker is going to drown.
After Bush and Cheney exceeded my incredibly low expectations for them, I had seen enough. I stopped my life and dedicated it to stopping those assholes so they can’t do anymore damage.
Someone needs to work on the big picture. Someone needs to fix problems that let them get as far as they did in the first place. But we need legions holding up the goddamned fence while that work gets done.
That’s me.
And you’re like the fucking lazy foreman who’s 100 yards back barking orders while you feed your face with a nice bucket lunch.
BooMan,
I see this exactly as you do. The reason the Republicans are peeing their pants about Scalia’s replacement is that this could be the very end of a conservative Supreme Court majority in our lifetimes.
If Hillary wins, I fully expect both Breyer and Ginsberg to retire. They will be replaced by reasonable human beings.
If not, we could be in for a rough road.
That’s why this nonsense about “I can’t vote for Hillary because she’s a warmonger or because she’s in the pocket of the bankers” needs to stop right now.
There is absolutely nothing to prevent a Republican executive and Senate from adding 2 more SC members if they blow up the filibuster and maintain discipline, which they seem able to do. They have demonstrated that conventions mean nothing to them.
What would inhibit them?
You’re not as hard to understand as you think, Boo. You are a small-c conservative. What you preference above all else is conserving the liberal gains already made. And that’s great! We absolutely need that; and luckily, we have it, as it describes about 60% of our party.
But your blog sometimes attracts the other 40%, the ones who aren’t small-c conservatives. And because you analyze events from such a fearful place–THIS FUCKER IS GOING TO DROWN!–you have a hard time taking seriously people arguing for long-term pragmatism.
“You can’t handle the truth! Son, we live in a world that has fences. And those walls have to be held up by legions of party organizers. Who’s gonna do it? You? You, AG? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for TPP and you curse Goldman Sachs. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that all these compromises, while tragic, probably saved lives. And the party establishment’s existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives…You don’t want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don’t talk about in blog comments, you want the party on that fence. You need us on that fence.”
Jack Nicholson (Col. Jessup) climactic speech paraphrase. Well turned!
I’ve always thought that movie a pretty good individual rights vs. authoritarianism Rorshach test. Seems clear lotsa wingnuts consider Jack to have played the hero(!) of the thing, in that speech in particular.
Yes, I often think about that speech, because what’s so disturbing about it is that it has so much truth in it, right?
That’s what makes it a great and memorable scene.
And that doesn’t excuse the crime. It’s a strawman argument. But it does puncture some of the self-righteousness.
So, when you absolutely depend on the people who work in and run the Democratic Party to be the day-in day-out soldiers who protect your way of life, it’s pretty shitty to keep piling contempt on their heads.
You can sit up there in your Ivory Tower or your popcorn gallery, or whatever, and keep yelling “you’re a sell out!” “you’re doing it wrong.”
And maybe you have a lot of good points and solid advice. But a lot of that contempt is misplaced, and gratitude is utterly lacking.
That’s absolutely what is so disturbing about it. It has a real, visceral appeal. At least to me. I want to believe it. I want the world to be that simple, and myself to be that correct.
Sadly, the world is more complex, and I’m wronger. And you see criticism as contempt, and a demand obeisance to an extremely flawed system. I’ve never expressed contempt on the heads of dem party activists; you’re personalizing this in the same way that people confuse (or pretend to confuse) criticism of police brutality with hatred of cops. “Show some gratitude! Do you want to live in a world of crime?”
You haven’t cornered the market on fear. You’re afraid that if we don’t conserve our gains, we’re headed for disaster. Others are afraid that if we don’t fundamentally change our party, ditto.
Billmon ( @billmon1 9h9 hours ago):
This is more than a little ridiculous, Steggles.
It’s you who are personalizing this, since I was using the universal “you,” not applying any of my remarks to you specifically.
Moreover, I come from an organizing background. That’s how I see the causality of progress. There’s party organizing and there’s outside organizing, and both are essential.
Like I said, we need people out there doing more than just holding up the wall. We need people figuring out how to fix the mistakes that let things get this far. We need a plan to rebuild the beach.
There are a lot of bloggers out there who blast away at Sanders and his adherents, who tell him to stop criticizing Clinton, who worry that he’s weakening her up for Republican attacks, who say he should drop out, who accused him constantly of naivety and of purity-tooling, and worse.
I haven’t done any of that.
All I have done is conclude very early on that Hillary Clinton was going to be the nominee, and to track the race and tell you precisely when that reality was assured. I told you some of the reasons why this was the case, and offered some critiques of Sanders to explain how he might have done better.
But that is the furthest thing from demanding “obeisance to an extremely flawed system.”
What pissed me off about Sanders wasn’t very much specific to him, but more to situation we found ourselves in. I am pissed that progressives wound up with no hope of stopping Clinton.
I’ve said it over and over again that I hate this cycle, that it leaves me with no hope, that I can’t stand watching progressives be frustrated and herded into a hopeless effort that leaves them disillusioned and apathetic.
But if you really want to understand me, it’s not fear exactly. It’s a fight. I’m in the fight to stop Republicans. If you want to send Lieberman to the guillotine while I’m busy punching Bill Frist, go right ahead. I approve. But I’m busy punching Bill Frist.
I don’t mind some party purification. It usually (not always) makes us stronger. But I got in this because of what movement conservatives were doing. I’m not surprised at how this has played out because I saw them as this kind of threat from the earliest stages of the Bush administration. They need to be stopped, and the only organization in the world strong enough to stop them is the Democratic Party.
So, I’m a Democrat.
I can be a third party socialist green party whatever sometime in the future when I have the privilege to be that blasé about the fight at hand.
…You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that all these compromises, while tragic, probably saved lives….
That is the strawman, imo. If it was ever true, and I would seriously debate that neoliberalism ever did anything but take more lives and increasingly immiserate all but a shrinking slice of our citizens, can anyone say it does now?
Did electing Bill Clinton save more people in the long run than re-electing BushI? Greenspan was gonna keep blowing up his bubbles under either, probably. Was Bush gonna get NAFTA, deregulation of the financial sector, the repudiation of safety net as a New Deal ethos in favor of the Victorian “deserving poor”? Will a Republican ever get a “Grand Bargain” to means test SS from a Dem Congress? After Tip O’Neil’s fiasco? History suggests “no” to all those questions, imo.
Our Dems of that period abandoned the Wall and jumped down among the opponents.
In hindsight, would another term of Bush, who to his credit DID recognize the economic perils at least, and a return to Eisenhower Republicanism have changed the course of neoliberalism? We can’t really know; I suspect not. It was a shiny new thing we had to adopt, probably.
But why we peons still want to champion corporatism is beyond me. The system is killing us off and the fashion is to blame us for it…the undeserving.
I’d encourage you to reexamine all of that, not to repudiate any of it, but to enhance and flesh it out and balance it.
There are equally valid perspectives that correctly see that had Clinton not won and served eight terms, that’s our reproductive rights in this country would more resemble El Salvador’s than our own.
That see that the conservative movement would have succeeded rather than falling just short (as it appears hopefully that they will) in rolling back the New Deal and Post-War Washington Consensus so that our country once again resembled something between the 1890’s and the 1920’s.
This would have implications for all sorts of things, from basic civil rights enforcement, voting rights, gay rights, religious freedom, environmental and workplace protection, worker’s rights, consumer rights, the right to access to the courts.
So, while you see 1990’s Democrats abandoning the wall, and you point out ways in which they did, you fail to see the many important ways in which they held it up.
The party today is a lot different. Even the players from the 1990’s are different. A lot of them agree with you about some of the mistakes they made, but don’t intend to make them again. A lot of those Democrats are now Republicans, or they’ve abandoned politics, or they simply can’t get elected in their states and districts anymore.
If you want to look at what might have been, look at Kansas and Louisiana. If Bush the Elder had won in 1992, that probably would be the whole country by now, not because Poppy was such a lunatic, but because he was just the top of a rotten pyramid. He had a moderating influence on the barbarians, but empowering him was empowering them.
And this is only half the story, too, because when you talk about hurting vs. harming people, I see what Obama has done to expand access to health care, to improve health care, to get people access to mental health care. I see what he’s accomplished in jacking up worldwide how much energy we get from renewable sources, and how he’s created the infrastructure for a global effort to combat climate change. I see how he revived nuclear non-proliferation on a global scale. I see how he bucked the Washington Establishment on Cuba, Syria and Iran. I see how much he’s done to put money in people’s pockets, from Medicaid, to restructuring college loans, to getting an aggressive agency to crack down on payday lenders and to regulate the Credit Card industry to protect consumers. I see what he’s done with sentencing reform, and getting rid of the crack/powder disparity. I could go on for a long time here, mino. A very long time.
And the alternative to these life-saving, life-improving things wasn’t nothing. It was, in many cases, something diametrically worse.
And I don’t discount more symbolic things, too, like how he’s given a role model for families everywhere, and to black youth, and dignity and rights to the LGBT community, and forced us to honor people who were traditionally reviled.
On and on.
So much different on every level from Bush and his movement conservative assholes who have nothing to offer but war and terrorism charts and torture and rationales for greed and meanness.
So, it’s not all about how the middle class has fared during the strongest period of the Reagan Revolution, which is only petering out now. That’s not unimportant at all, but it’s only one part of the elephant’s hide.
Well…
I believe that you..and your compatriots in centrist safety and graduailsm…are once again going to “win,” Booman.
And in winning that way, we all are at risk of losing, long-term.
I will continue to ride the Revere trail.
Bet on it.
After the Centrists? Le deluge!!!
Watch.
I really don’t much care anymore, to tell you the truth. I have made compromise after compromise in my own life, and none of them panned out as planned. Now? I just do what I think is right, and damn the torpedoes.
AG
There are two ways to overturn Citizens United:
Scalia was in the majority.
So replacing Scalia at leasts partially addresses the money in politics problem
Which is a pretty big deal.
Sorry, AG, but particular in the last couple of weeks, if you haven’t been able to read between the lines of Booman’s posts to answer some of those rhetorical questions–particularly the first three–then I’d say you’ve been intentionally wearing blinders. Truly, it is not necessary to write the way that Steven D has done recently, accusing Hillary Clinton of being the spawn of Satan, to make one’s point.
Someone’s got to keep the faith!!!
May as well be me…
AG
I haven’t seen evidence that Warren is even interested in running for president.
I have not seen any evidence that she is interested in anything beyond Wall Street. Which is great, someone needs to do that job!
I just don’t understand the obsession for deification of politicians.
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As republican (small r) government becomes more and more dysfunctional under any currently-existing system, it is unable to implement needed changes, requiring the most singularly powerful politician to act unilaterally.
Movements falter, parties splinter and fracture, and you either end up with 1000 tribes, or a Strongman.
It’s interesting when you read opinions from people who believe that Iraq should be allowed to divide into multiple sovereign states, but will argue that the US should, under no circumstances, allow individual states to secede, such as Texas, which would likely secede if it were a realistic option.
The US is as much of an empire as any other empire in history. The US has modeled itself after the Roman Republic in countless ways. Our republican government dysfunction is looking to echo that of the Roman Republic, and it isn’t at all surprising to me.
I am only surprised that after Bush II, Texas was not EJECTED from the Union.
Sorry, missed the “succession” comment. Still, it seems almost impossible in this day and age to successfully primary a sitting President.
NO
It’s pretty clear Alicia Garza is the only possible choice.
Young, a woman, a person of color, someone who realizes what a disaster the Obama years were…
Except for the Clinton part.
Put Tim Kaine on the ticket and wrap up the next 16 yrs. Unless he doesn’t want to be president or there are personal reasons why HRC doesn’t like him, I don’t see why he’s not a lock. His résumé reads like someone literally planned his path to the presidency.
I think I’d eye any tall ledge invitingly in that situation. Shudder. Actually Tim Kaine would probably make me switch parties to the Greens and I dont even like them.
Totally agree with you, Boo, that we need Warren in the Senate, not as Veep.
Also totally agree with you that a two woman ticket would be very appealing — it sends a very strong implicit message, and it doubles down on the women’s vote, which I think is strategically wise.
The woman who strikes me as young enough, ambitious enough, and with enough juice to want to be Veep is Kirsten Gillibrand. The problem with that pick is having 2 New York Senators on the ticket. But then again, nobody really considers Hillary a New Yorker anyway.
Not a woman, but Julian Castro or Tom Perez? Both supporters of Clinton, but might make a difference in TX. I’d hate to lose a Dem senator, too. Obama plucked some (and governors too) and that turned out to be troublesome (eg. AZ).
Texas will go Republican this fall.
It’s not always about the current election especially in states we’re trying to flip. They’re building in Texas with voter registration and better GOTV for groups that have routinely stayed up that are likely to support Democratic candidates. If picking a Texan keeps spurring them on I’m all for it.
Besides given who Clinton is there is no VP pick that would move any of the states, especially for the first term it’s going to be all about her given how the GOP has routinely operated around her.
Yes, it probably will. But for diversity, I’m for Castro or Perez and, I think, Castro is the more appealing of the two. It might not matter in Texas right now, but it could matter in FLA, NM, CO, and some other states. It would get folks registered. And since I expect any Republican candidate to put Nicki Haley on as VP, playing the female and diversity card, the Dems can’t just run an Angle male.
New Mexico votes for a Democratic president consistently; since 1996, voted R once (2004). Florida will very likely go Republican this fall. John Kerry lost it in 2004 and Obama won it by .88% in 2012. Florida’s population is growing older fast and these people have the highest rate of voting and the majority vote Republican. Florida’s governor, senate, and house are Republican and voter suppression laws have recently passed. Colorado is up for grabs. That’s how I see it now.
I agree with your basic premises and also with your conclusion. Warren should not accept VP slot. I also agree with many of the reasons you give for why she shouldn’t.
I have comments on a few of your obiter dicta.
“I’m not saying that’s something Democrats should encourage or welcome … ” — I take that as an apophasis — “a rhetorical device wherein the speaker or writer brings up a subject by either denying it, or denying that it should be brought up.” Ahem. Next topic.
“Does she get along with the Clintons.” She does now, more or less. I have y doubts about it if she were VP.
“Can the Democrats afford to lose her senate seat?” Absolutely not, and in Warren’s case, as you explain very well, it’s not just any old seat.
You may like the idea of a two-woman ticket, and what’s more important, I think lots of women would like the idea. I really don’t think Hillary would though.
The thing I like best about this post is that it gets us thinking positively about the upcoming senate, hopefully a Democratic senate. There’s been so much focus on the presidency lately, I hadn’t even been thinking about it.
I’m not concerned about whether or not she’d bring any states along with her, because Veeps don’t do that anyway.
Really, I vote no because she’s much more valuable in the Senate, and because I’d prefer Hillary choose a younger, more up-and-coming running mate who could be a successor.
Plus, the Mass Dems would just run Coakley to replace her and lose again. They’re like the Florida Dems with Charlie Crist.
On your first two points, agreed. But I don’t see us Dems in Massachusetts letting her past the primaries again, oh, hell, no! Especially after following up on her Senate loss by going on to lose the governorship to Charlie Baker. At this point she’s politically toxic.
NO.
Firstly don’t want Clinton but get that it’s probably the way it’s going.
Not the world’s biggest Warren fan, but that said, I think it’s better for all concerned for her to stay in the Senate for now.
I don’t know who should run as Veep. Not sure that it matters all that much, frankly.
lol no.
It would be a perfect way to gift wrap the senate dems for schumer (Israel First-Wall Street) and defang Warren. I could not think of a better way for a potential HRC presidency to neuter the economic left.
I think that the real question should be:
Along with an equally important query:
Subsequent actions by each of them over the next month or so will answer both of those questions.
If we see a lukewarm Warren attitude towards Clinton’s candidacy, I think that it will signal that she thinks Clinton might very well lose to Trump. If we see a spate of planted stories from the Clinton camp about how she’s thinking hard about vice-presidential candidates and none of them are named Warren? She’s probably (and quite justifiably) concerned about what her financial backers (read “Goldman-Sachs, Citibank.” etc.) might think of an anti-banking firebrand being one breath away from the presidency.
Watch.
The next several months…maybe even less time…will tell the story.
Watch.
AG
Keep the good senators in the senate dammit! Thomas Perez looks good to me.
90 minutes
It took just 90 minutes for this to jump the rails.
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Which is why it seems that anymore the prudent thing around here is to stand outside and simply peer through the window at the tempest.
Certainly that’s the prudent thing.
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If the name and date fonts on comments here weren’t green, sometimes I’d think I might have accidentally landed at Daily Kos.
Sorry, the reference goes past me. I go there every once in awhile, but don’t notice large conflicts. I know the owner threatened to ban Sanders supporters a couple weeks ago (Frankly, these days I sympathize). And I know many of the grifters here were banned from there. I also know Booman created the Pond in response to some incident there.
For piece of mind I have created certain rules for posting here. I occasionally break them (like yesterday, to my regret), but so far it’s worked.
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I’m pretty sure the USA is ready for a woman President, but would two women on the ticket not exacerbate the feeling male disenfranchisement that some men seem to be feeling?
I belong to the school of thought that the VP pick should complement the Nominee in as many ways as possible: I.e. that they be strong where the top of the ticket is perceived as weak. The other key criterion is that the VP pick should be a viable pick as the next leader of the party. That implies they are significantly younger. A third criterion is that they can offset some of the strengths of the GOP ticket. So a Hispanic pick would be good if Cruz is the nominee, someone with strong business experience if Trump is the nominee, etc.. Finally, they need to be good at unifying the party and mobilising the base, although the number of people whose vote is strongly influenced by the no. 2 on the ticket must be quite small, and so accomplishing those goals is primarily Hillary’s responsibility. The party may seem very divided now, but by November current divisions may seem very small when faced with a Trump or Cruz candidacy.
So, ideally, the VP pick will be male, young, with progressive policy credentials, possibly perceived as an outsider to the Washington establishment and perhaps with minority roots. A Governor of a purple state who might swing at least that state seems ideal. They must be capable enough to be credible as a future President and broadly acceptable to the various factions within the party. He needn’t be particularly well known now, so long as he can stand up to media scrutiny. Getting along with the Clintons is a relatively minor consideration. She may ignore him now, but she might need him to carry on her legacy…
Anyone know anyone who might fit the Bill?
This dude has been getting some attention…https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Perez
Curious if you have an opinion on him.
Why? Wouldn’t even put him on a long HRC VP list.
What do you know about him? Unions are pretty happy with his behavior, supposedly.
Pardon, I forgot that this is a wish list thread and not an expectation thread. So, please don’t take my comment as criticism of Perez. However, even a wish list should include consideration of strength and status of an individual’s political resume.
Don’t disagree with you about the Castro brothers.
I know what weak sauce Castro brother is. Already behaving as expected at HUD.
Debbie Wasserman Schultz for VP! She can be Hillary’s Agnew!
Per Wikipedia: “In 1973, Agnew was investigated by the United States Attorney for the District of Maryland on charges of extortion, tax fraud, bribery, and conspiracy. He was charged with having accepted bribes totaling more than $100,000 while holding office as Baltimore County Executive, Governor of Maryland, and Vice President. On October 10 that same year, Agnew was allowed to plead no contest to a single charge that he had failed to report $29,500 of income received in 1967, with the condition that he resign the office of Vice President.”
Is it your contention that Wasserman Schultz has been taking bribes?
Hmm, is probably more a contention that Agnew would not be in trouble for those same actions in today’s climate of “money is speech”.
Not really, no. Warren can do more good in the Senate than as VP, as you said. A two-woman ticket sounds like a gimmick to me. Find someone else who a) helps win a few states b) balances the ticket (is more progressive? less hawkish on FP?) c) can run for president in 8 years without needing a walker.
Do we ever not flub the “who will be the VP” question?
Sometimes it’s purely strategic, sometimes its purely personal, sometimes it’s political affinity, and sometimes it’s a mix of those three but rarely in equal proportions. And sometimes the rationale is too limited and therefore, gets lost and ends up looking like desperation.
Whoever HRC chooses, it will be a Governor or Senator and preferably in office. She/he will also not pose any risk for upstaging either Clinton. Bill will figure out the strategic angle and Hillary will take care of the comfy zone angle. On a public stage they ticket will look as close to “two peas in a pod” as possible. Far more options for her this year than usually exist.
Two thoughts:
My short wish list: I want Bernie to stay in the race until the convention, shifting from political attack mode to Occupy the Democratic Party advocacy mode after next Tuesday. His continued presence in the race in a positive way all the way to the convention would greatly increase the chance Hillary would feel pressure to go ahead and ask Warren to join her. I agree with many here that Warren is perhaps too valuable and productive in the Senate, but Warren wouldn’t agree to a ceremonial role: she’d only do it if she had an extensive portfolio of policy responsibilities. Would Hillary do this? Probably not, unless circumstances forced her to–that’s where Bernie comes in.
Otherwise, I’d hope Hillary goes with Sherrod Brown because Ohio and because he’s been a solid advocate for progressive values in the past.
Noooo! Keep the bad ass liberal senators in the senate. Brown’s seat would be filled by somebody that Kaisich picks. I’m not willing to make that swap.
Otherwise, I’d hope Hillary goes with Sherrod Brown because Ohio and because he’s been a solid advocate for progressive values in the past.
No thanks!!! Kasich will pick his successor, at least for a time.
She needs a VP who will at least try to talk sense in regards to foreign policy. Warren sure as hell ain’t that. That’s enough of a reason to oppose Warren without further inspection.
I agree with Boo. Feel the same way about Sanders. Need both in the Senate.
I’d rather have EW be senator than VP, but she is FAR and away the person I’d most like to eventually have as President. So there’s a long-game angle, if we consider that Warren would be the frontrunner in 2024 and/or that HRC might not stay healthy for 8 years.
I am all for it. It would help address a significant weakness: that she is too close to Wall Street
The truth is Clinton has NO answer for the Goldman Sachs stuff.
SO she puts on the ticket the person most associated with wanting to hold Wall Street accountable, along with some assurances that Warren will have a role in overseeing Wall Street.
Clinton is running significantly behind Sanders in trail heats. This is not 1992 where adding votes meant moving ideologically to the center.
In this cycle authenticity is more trumps (pun intended) ideology.
And Clinton is about as inauthentic as they come.