This is going to be a difficult piece to write, and to begin it, I have to make a diversion. The New York Times is reporting this morning that John Kasich and Ted Cruz have hatched a strategic plan to collude in their efforts to deny Donald Trump the nomination. When Trump saw this reporting he issued a press release, and what he had to say had a lot of validity to it, and I am sure that it will strike a lot of people as just the plain truth of the matter.
In a lengthy press release sent out Sunday evening, the Republican presidential frontrunner slammed his fellow candidates over their plan to divvy up the remaining nominating states to try to keep Trump from picking up the 1,237 delegates needed to secure the Republican presidential nomination.
“It is sad that two grown politicians have to collude against one person who has only been a politician for 10 months in order to try and stop that person from getting the Republican nomination,” Trump said in his statement.
Labeling the pact a “horrible act of desperation,” Trump attempted to undermine the two candidates’ electoral legitimacy, painting both as political insiders attempting to subvert the popular vote.
Trump noted that he had won millions more votes than both Cruz and Kasich. The Ohio governor has won only his home state and has secured fewer delegates than Marco Rubio, the Florida senator who dropped out of the presidential race in March.
“Collusion is often illegal in many other industries and yet these two Washington insiders have had to revert to collusion in order to stay alive,” Trump said. “They are mathematically dead and this act only shows, as puppets of donors and special interests, how truly weak they and their campaigns are.”
He continued: “When two candidates who have no path to victory get together to stop a candidate who is expanding the party by millions of voters (all of whom will drop out if I am not in the race), it is yet another example of everything that is wrong in Washington and our political system.”
The stated premise here is that the people who showed up to participate in the Republican caucuses and primaries have showed a clear preference for Trump as is demonstrated by both Trump’s substantial lead in the pledged delegate count and in his strong advantage in estimates of the popular vote. The unstated premise is that the people who actually run the Republican Party on a year-in, year-out basis–the officeholders, the RNC committee members, the county executives, the local leaders who typically are selected to serve as delegates–they should not have the ultimate say in who they’ll choose to lead them.
If the people who actually constitute the Republican Party, who raise the money and organize the events and hash out the strategy and the platform…if those people overrule the verdict of the broader electorate that votes in Republican primaries, then there is something horribly corrupt or undemocratic about that. It’s not just illegitimate for them to do this, or even to attempt to do this, but it’s bordering on criminal, and it’s un-American and unpatriotic.
I agree that most people will feel this way, but I think they’re wrong. And, to the extent that I am sympathetic to their argument, it’s entirely because of something extraneous to internal Republican politics. I agree that the de facto two-party system so advantages the two major parties over third parties, that it strips the broader public of choice and gives them some right to expect a say on how both majors select their nominees.
This is all a long way of introducing my critique of a very fine piece that David Atkins wrote over the weekend at the Washington Monthly on how to fix our nominating process so that it seems fairer, more logical, more democratic, and in ways that might even help the parties reverse the tide of folks who are leaving party membership to become independents.
Atkins begins with an argument in favor of abandoning the caucus system entirely because they are “artifact(s) of simpler times and smaller populations” that “disenfranchise large numbers of voters and allow for significant manipulation by state and local machine politics.” My immediate problem with this is that it supposes that anyone is “enfranchised” to vote in an internal party election. This isn’t true legally or constitutionally, as I can set up a party right now, invite only people I’ve personally vetted, and set up any rules I want about how we’ll select our leadership or office-seekers. It might be that I figure that the best way to grow my party is to have the loosest possible requirements for membership, or even to allow anyone who shows up to vote on how we run our party. It might be that I don’t want some random sample of the broader electorate to dictate those kind of managerial decisions for me. No one has a right to come in and dictate to us what we’re going to do, or to tell us that we’re a bunch of crooks if we don’t submit to their preferences. Maybe we will elect our own delegates in closed internal meetings because we only trust committed people who we know personally, and who have helped us organize the party and clearly share our values.
A political party can choose its nominee any way it wants, and you, as a citizen, have no rights in the matter. This isn’t an argument in favor of caucuses. It’s an argument that parties should only abandon caucuses for strategic reasons, not because they disenfranchise people.
Atkins’ next suggestion is that both parties “mandate semi-open primaries.” What he means is that, having gone to an all-primary system, the two majors should allow anyone to vote in them, even if they were previously unaffiliated with the party in any way. As long as someone is willing to become a Democrat or a Republican (even if only for Election Day), then they should get a ballot. Thankfully, Atkins doesn’t argue that people have the right to show up on Election Day, declare themselves a member of your party, and get a ballot. But he does see this as a legitimate expectation. And it’s not really a legitimate expectation. Parties are under no obligation to hold any primary at all, so how can the public have a right to participate in them? As a matter of strategy, it may well be true that the two majors should move to semi-open primaries with same-day registration. Or maybe they should just have a general election and let even people who also voted in the other major’s primary to participate. They can do whatever they want, and it’s all equally “legitimate.”
Atkins’s third suggestion is a bit tangential to what I’m writing about, but I’ll note it anyway. He wants to basically throw the 50 states into a random generator and come up with a primary schedule that way. If the resulting schedule is too tilted toward one region or favors too much one demographic, it can be tinkered with. But we shouldn’t allow there to be favored states that always go first, or regions (like the South this time around) that dominate by clustering their primaries at the front end. There are practical reasons why this reform would be difficult to implement, but I have no objection to it in principle except, again, that parties can do whatever they want, and if we had a regional party based in New England, I wouldn’t expect them to submit to a primary calendar that made Arizona the first contest.
Atkins’s fourth suggestion is to bind pledged delegates to the preferences of the people they represent. He doesn’t go into this in great detail, but it’s problematic that some delegates are supposed to represent a single congressional district, others an entire state, others the national committees, and others only themselves. Here I think there should be some truth in advertising so people don’t feel defrauded. If you run as a Trump delegate and get elected, you should stick with Trump. But maybe delegates simply should not promise to support anyone in the first place. If we’re going to get a bit idealistic here, I’d rather delegates run to be leaders of their communities and to represent their communities. If people understood from the get-go that the way we select party nominees is that delegates make the decision, the election wouldn’t take the form of beauty contests like the Iowa caucuses with all the misleading coverage about who “won” and who has the “momentum.” Candidates would get involved locally and build organizations that would hold local meetings to try to win over the support of its engaged citizenry. The end result would be closer to elections for the House of Representatives, and the nominees would ultimately be selected more like the way we elect the Speaker of the House. The truth is, this is already much more the case than people realize, but my system would be more transparent and honest, and give people a real shot of getting involved when and where their influence could actually make a difference.
In any case, I agree that people should understand the mechanism of how nominees are elected and they shouldn’t be deceived. With correct knowledge, people will at least know how to meaningfully participate. Whether they can get the time off from work or the day care they need to participate is another matter, but one that is ultimately up to the parties to facilitate (if they want to).
Atkins’s last suggestion runs afoul of all these principles of mine, because he wants candidates to be able to select their own delegates. The problem here is that its the party, not the candidates, that should be allowed to pick its own voters. This should be obvious. If you’re running to be the leader of the party, you have to win over the party’s voting leadership, and if that party’s voting leadership is selected at least partially by the people you’ve invited to participate, that doesn’t change a thing. The delegates are sent as representatives to a convention (or party meeting) where the platform will be crafted, party rules will be hashed out, and all kinds of organizational decisions will be made. Those representatives are entrusted to use their judgment on all kinds of things. That’s how our democracy works in Congress, and that’s how it works in party conventions. The most important thing those representatives will decide is who will be their presidential and vice-presidential nominees, but those decisions aren’t really different in kind from them voting on any other item that comes up on the agenda. In all of these cases, the decision-making responsibility has been delegated to them by the people who elected them, and no candidate should be allowed to select the delegates outside of a process where the people have agreed specifically to be represented by them.
To be clear, if the party itself delegates responsibility for selecting voters at the convention to some subset of the electorate, then it’s up that subset to delegate the responsibility by electing the candidates who they want to represent them at the convention.
Now, I anticipate that a lot of people will object that what I am describing isn’t democratic at all. It’s a recipe for a small group of political insiders to dictate control so that the final result is that the general electorate is given just two viable choices for president, neither of whom they’ve necessarily had any role or influence in selecting.
First of all, this is the system we already have and have always had, and recent reforms (as is becoming very clear) have not changed that. So, what I’m describing isn’t so much a change in the system as a change in how we think about the system. I want people to understand what’s really going on because that empowers them.
Second, I don’t think we should aspire to an unrealistic system where political (party) organizing doesn’t confer decisive political advantages. Everyone has the right to pass a verdict on what the political organizers of various parties have done. That’s what the general election is for. But actual party building is based on actual ideas and takes work and leadership and (yes) money. It’s up to people to come together and organize to make change, and no one should expect that change to come simply by casting a single vote in November, or even April.
To use Bernie Sanders as an example, he’s already proven that the money can be raised from ordinary people to compete with corporate donors and five or six-figure donations from millionaires and billionaires. Where he failed wasn’t in attracting people to his ideas and getting them to commit sufficient time and money. Where he failed was to get organized early enough, locally enough, and broadly enough that his people became the leadership of the party before he ever had to ask for their support. That’s not all on him, by the way, because we really do have an entrenched two-party system that makes it hard to break in from the outside. This made Sanders’s task more difficult because it required him to run as hard at the inside game as he ran the outside one, and he either wasn’t capable or (more likely) simply didn’t want to make the same kind of accommodations to the party that Barack Obama was willing and able to make.
What he succeeded at, however, was demonstrating how one of the most important pieces can be accomplished, which is getting the money you need to compete in a national election. In a way, he at least partially delegitimized one of his main critiques of the system, which is that money necessarily corrupts it and makes it impossible for regular folks to get a fair shake. Well, Sanders has money, too, and someone else in the future might be able to use the same sources of money to figure out how to get regular folks a fairer shake. Maybe they’ll succeed in taking over the Democratic Party. Maybe they’ll figure out how to start a successful third party that can supplant the Democratic Party.
Maybe that third party will have caucuses, or maybe they’ll have semi-open primaries, or maybe they’ll rely on a Committee of Seventy. It really doesn’t matter.
What I do know, though, is that whenever the workingman’s revolution comes, its ideas won’t be crafted by the general electorate in November. Their ideas will be ratified in November.
And that’s how it should be.
As for the leaders of the Republican Party, if they want to let Donald Trump be their nominee out of some misplaced deference to the will of the people, then they’ve already lost control of their party and it stands for nothing. They’ll have to get organized on creating a new party, and this time they better be a little more exacting about who they let pick their leadership.
I feel like this entire post cuts against the grain what progressives of the Progressive Era hoped to enact. And as predicted, I pretty much disagree with almost all of it. More thoughts later after work.
Terrific post, Booman. Thanks.
It brings to mind another organizer-writer-theorist’s reporting on the 2007 Obama presidential campaign.
Al Giordano wrote the earliest and most thorough analysis that I’m aware of that predicted Obama would win the Democratic nomination and why. http://thephoenix.com/boston/news/48290-damn-you-barack-obama/
Writing for the late, lamented Boston Phoenix in September 2007, Giordano took note of what he’d already observed about the Obama campaign’s community organizing approach to electing a president, its success at organizing money and organizing people, and predicted how Obama might win the nomination and the presidency.
So, today’s progressives (and reactionaries—the Cruz campaign seems to have learned a trick or two from Obama) who want to change the system not only have the Sanders campaign as an example of a partial success. They have the 2007-08 Obama campaign (and the several years before that as Obama positioned himself to be able to take advantage of the opportunity available in 2008) as another guidepost to moving the “world as it is” a little closer to the “world as it should be”.
“However [political parties] may now and then answer popular ends, they are likely in the course of time and things, to become potent engines, by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people and to usurp for themselves the reins of government, destroying afterwards the very engines which have lifted them to unjust dominion.” -GW
I think you summed your position up perfectly in this one sentence: “I agree that most people will feel this way, but I think they’re wrong.”
Good to know our betters are watching out for us. I guess I should have spent my life making sure that all American voters could have a say in electing their government instead of expecting that the people elected and trusted to uphold the constitution do their jobs to make it so. Instead I decided to dedicate myself to saving people’s lives. Silly me.
corruption |kəˈrəpSHən|
noun
the process by which something is changed from its original use or meaning to one that is regarded as erroneous or debased.
“…sooner or later the chief of some prevailing faction, more able or more fortunate than his competitors, turns this disposition to the purposes of his own elevation, on the ruins of Public Liberty.” – GW
People do have a say in electing their government. That’s what the general elections are.
Beyond that, you have to organize.
Expecting to change your choices with just a vote is like expecting to change a congressman’s vote with a simple phone call.
What share of the people had the right to vote when GW won?
Political parties are inevitable. There are x votes and groups who fight for this or that issue. Inevitably they will make pacts with other groups who’re fighting for other stances they’re not offended by.
And voila.
IF after this election, the GOP sits down and alters their process, that’s one thing.
But, to change the rules in the middle of the game -it’s just not right.
Period.
And, I honestly still don’t believe, until it happens, that they are going to take the nomination from the person with the most delegated/votes.
Maybe they will…but, I literally will have to see it to believe it.
the rules haven’t changed.
the problem is the enormous disconnect between the system and rules than exist and what people expect.
But what if the rules of the game allow for the rules to be changed in the middle of the game?
Calvinball?
I think you’ve made an excellent description of how the current system works, and I agree that people need to be made aware of it. So they can burn it to the ground. Why can’t the parties belong to the people? Why can’t they be organized and paid for by the electorate? The fact that our parties are private clubs seems to be the foundation of most of our problems.
when people get organized, they form private clubs. They can decide how open they want their clubs to be, but it isn’t an organization of its just open to everyone. In that case, it’s just a receptacle.
How do you square that with this: “I agree that the de facto two-party system so advantages the two major parties over third parties, that it strips the broader public of choice and gives them some right to expect a say on how both majors select their nominees.”
I square it in two ways:
And I’ll add number three.
3. you won’t be able to chip away very effectively from the outside, but once you’re inside you’ll disincentivized to make the reforms.
This last one is indeed a conundrum, but it doesn’t make a principled difference in how a group of organized citizens should elect their leadership.
Not sure if that’s a conundrum or an impasse. And it may not make a principled difference, but it sure as hell makes a pragmatic difference.
It means that the most pragmatic approach to reform is via a wild longshot … like the Sanders campaign. (Preferably with a younger, more charismatic, Southern candidate of a different ethnicity.) It’s a whole new meaning of ‘the one percent.’ That’s the chance of effective reform. Still, I think it’s why anyone who truly wants to reform the system had to support Sanders early and loudly; because 1% is better’n none.
That’s only a partially correct conclusion. The answer isn’t “wild longshot” but early, dogged organizing.
In the wise words of BooMan: “Once you’re inside, you’re disincentivized to make the reforms.” Are there any examples of institutions changing this way (as opposed to via outside pressure or generational changes, etc.)? I mean, if through early, dogged organizing, 20% of the party establishment is replaced by reformists, then 30% … how would the ‘old establishment’ 70%, the ones who controlled the machinery from the inside, react? And what percent of those ‘reformists’ stay reform-minded, instead of being coopted?
Do you think this is true of all institutions, or is something unique about the major political parties? Should BLM activists, for example, focus on joining police forces? Should environmentalists focus on working for the biggest polluters? Is the foremost problem personnel, or is it something about institutional power and culture?
Well, honestly, I think it’s a great idea for BLM to recruit people to apply to the police academies. Absolutely. I mean, that’s not a catch-all solution to anything, but it should be part of the solution. They should also be getting themselves on oversight boards or elected to city councils, or assigned to the police beat at their local paper.
But, the Progressive Era serves as as good a model as you’re going to find to how to work the inside/outside game. I mean, they got direct election of senators (a mostly bad idea in the end, for reasons the Framers well understood), they got female suffrage. They even outlawed booze.
If you outlaw booze, you can do almost anything.
But you have to organize both within and without the major parties.
The Progressives came from both parties, you know. Teddy and Woodrow were equally influenced by them.
You are not on board with direct election of senators? Let’s hear more about that.
The Senate originally had two purposes.
The first was simply to make the union possible at all.
That’s obsolete now, and we’re left with an undemocratic remnant that gives Wyoming as much power as California.
The second was to have a body that was insulated from the passions of the day (a terrorist attack, a sudden downturn in the economy), and that could act as a check on the House that would always respond to the heat of the moment.
It’s this second role that the Senate can provide. We might not want it, particularly since it’s so undemocratic in its representation. But, if we’re going to have it, it might as well do its job.
It doesn’t do its job anymore, even with the luxury of six year terms. It acts exactly like the House and freaks out with the same gnat-like sagacity.
The purpose of direct elections was to stamp out corruption and cronyism in state legislatures, and I guess it did a so-so job of that.
But not enough, in my opinion, to justify the very existence an upper body that now is just a distorted redundancy of the House.
You know I prefer parliaments, so I am with you on the broad lines. But I’ve never liked the idea of the senate as an anti-passion tool. I think thats done more harm than good and I’m not in favor of the general principle in as much as it assumes elites/patricians are more levelheaded. I do think direct election is a better option than legislative selection.
Why can’t they be organized and paid for by the electorate?
That’s the problem with closed primaries. The primaries are paid for by tax dollars. So why shouldn’t indies have a say? They’re paying for the primary too.
So, let’s do a thought experiment.
I mean why shouldn’t everyone be able to vote in every primary?
And if parties don’t want the general electorate to pick their nominees then they can just run private elections, and that will be fairer to poor parties that can’t afford that or who need exposure?
One vote per slot takes care of that argument, no?
If it were up to me, everyone would be able to vote in the primary. You’d have to chose one party, what ever it is, though. Some states do that now, I think.
why just one party, though?
What gives me the right to choose the Republican nominee but not the Green Party nominee?
Party membership?
Because it would be a mess? If you lived in NY, would you want to fill out 6 different ballots? That’s just for starters.
In Europe parties function pretty much is like you describe. The parties decides its processes and the voters at large are not a part of it. Due paying members get a say, and the party – not the state – collects the dues, keeps membership records and organises internal elections.
The parties have however an internal democratic structure where members choose directly or indirectly party leaders and board members. And they accept all new members as long as they don’t do things to exclude themselves (for example declaring loyalty for another party). These two criterias – internal democracy and open to new members – is considered basic demands to make sure that the state stays democratic. If you elect a party that does not use democracy internally, why should you expect them to respect democracy in power and hold new elections?
I think the basic problem in the US is the combination of two-party system, lack of run-off election to president and a constitution that for all practical matters can not be changed.
Combined it gives the voters very limited options. This is partly fixed today by using the primaries and caucuses as the first round. Making it more so would make the system more democratic. It is kind of a crude fix compared to changing the constitution, but a pragmatic fix.
So I disagree with the post. The internal structures of parties has to be seen as part of the system of electing politicians to lead the state.
I might be persuaded to your point of view for exactly the reasons you state, but I have prerequisite, and that’s that we recognize the system we have for what it is.
Because, the changes we need to make aren’t to make it more cosmetically democratic. And that’s really what David does, but at the expense of party coherence.
That’s not a good trade off.
I couldn’t disagree with you more about this.
The people who stepped up to the plate to take a Republican ballot have chosen this clown.
That has been the rub all along. It’s never been a ‘ sliver’. He’s been speaking and singing sweet tunes to the general GOP voting public.
If they ignore those who took their time to come out and vote and chose a GOP ballot…..
Then, what is it about, really?
You’re going to tell those folks that their votes really didn’t count, because we don’t like who you voted for…..
REALLY?
they’re gonna do that?
and, then turn around and tell the people – BTW, you’re going to vote for Person B – cause THAT’s who you should have chosen in the first place.
REALLY?
What comes to mind is that line, “No, Mr. Bond, I expect you to die.”
The Republicans can’t salvage this election by denying Trump, but that’s a separate issue from whether they ought to do it just on principle.
They ought to do it if they can.
If they stand for anything as a party, that is.
“A political party can choose its nominee any way it wants, and you, as a citizen, have no rights in the matter.”
Why not take your argument to the logical conclusion, and support a system in which nominees are chosen by a handful of delegates who are in turn chosen by the party? Why open primaries to the larger public at all? You’d have no philosophical problem (as opposed to a pragmatic one) with that?
I’d have no principled disagreement with that at all. It would be vastly more honest than what we have now.
Ask yourself whether you feel differently about how the nominees are chosen for the two majors are chosen from how the leadership of the Elks are chosen. Do you have an opinion on how the Independence Party selects its nominee? Or the Green Party? Or the Libertarian Party?
The truth is, you only care about the two majors because they have such institutional advantages.
But then the question is more about ballot access, first past the post elections, run-off elections, public funding, etc., and not about how parties select their nominees.
You’re absolutely correct that the only reason I care about the two majors is because they have such institutional advantages … but they have SUCH INSTITUTIONAL ADVANTAGES!
And, to (mis)quote President Obama, “They didn’t build that.” They’re benefitting from our common infrastructure and our cultural inheritance. The majors don’t belong only to the party establishment, not anymore; they’re part of the American commons. If the airwaves belong to all of us, and the national park system belongs to all of us, why don’t the major parties, the institutional duopoly with a stranglehold on political power which directly decides how to manage the airwaves and parks?
Yes, and why would general ballot access have to be honored in the primaries?
Booman writes:
You are wrong here, Booman. It is tyically American. The so-called “those people'”…God help us, we do not know who they really are…first try to prerule the eventual verdict of the broader electorate by fixing the whole primary process any which way they can, including non-personing various candidates through consistent mass media attack. This has failed for the first time in living memory this year. Trump is the only candidate in both parties against whom that tactic has not worked since they stopped shooting people who seriously threatened the bi-partisan fix. It worked well enough to ensure Sanders’s loss and it handily got rid of people like Ross Perot, Howard Dean, Ron Paul and Rand Paul. Now they are trying to find other ways of making the centrist fix work…to overrule the voice of the people. Yes, this is horribly corrupt and undemocratic, but…unless you really seriously believe all of the bullshit you were fed in civics classes as a youngster…it not “un-American.” Not since the very beginnings of the U.S., actually. Wealth and power has always tried to find ways to camouflage its real intentions from the people.
The founders of this great scam wrote:
Then they founded a nation where only white men of property could vote.
Duh!!!
A point can be made that perhaps they were in some way correct, that true democracy…one person, one vote…will inexorably tend towards the mediocre mean rather than strive for progress. That’s another matter of debate entirely, one best left to other discussions. But this discussion is…should be, anyway…about what it really happening in the political process as it stands today. And it is typically “American.” Will these people win in their attempt to defend the system as it now stands…a safe, centrist win/win fix disguised as a democratic choice? I believe that they won’t, but if they don’t it won’t be because they are acting “un-American,” it will be because the U.S. has been almost totally changed by the information revolution. They simply can’t run the scam the same way…laying down the fix through several newspapers and TV networks of record. It is too easy to hear and see what the real candidates are saying and how they act (and react) now. Trump…and once again, I feel that I must reiterate that I am in no way one of his supporters so that various knee-jerk Dems do not come wailing after me with accusations of being some sort of secret Trumpster…Trump is a true revolutionary in this sense. He understands the power of a mostly unfettered info system and he has used it brilliantly. In some respects he IS the representative of the kind of “true democracy” that tends towards the mediocre mean of human experience.
Those people clamoring to touch the hem of the Divine Trump?
Baby…they are not rocket scientists.
The fella in the nice suit below, surrounded by Nazi Officers?
That’s a rocket scientist. Wernher von Braun. Yeah. The guy who rained V2s on London during W.W.II, then came to the U.S. to work on guided missiles for the U.S. when Germany was defeated. Who hired him? The same kinds of people who work the electoral fix in the U.S. Bet on it.
Their motto?
Bet on that as well.
Un-American!!!???
WTFU.
AG
Now a stand-alone post.
Republicans? Un-American? I Beg To Disagree. HISTORICALLY American, Unfortunately.
Please go there if you wish to comment.
Thank you…
AG
AG–It’s not quite correct to say that Wernher von Braun “came to the U.S. to work on guided missiles.” The US, Soviet Union, and even the UK all were keen to snatch German scientists and engineers in fields that Germany had excelled at. And the fact is that Germany under von Braun’s leadership was way ahead of all the Allied powers in the field of rocketry. In the context of the times, it’s frankly a bit hard to argue with what the Allies did. Nobody expected that the Soviet Union and the western powers were going to remain allies once Germany had been defeated.
Von Braun didn’t really have much say in his post-1945 work assignment.
He had a say in working for Hitler.
Several million Jews down the tube later, he was chosen by the “democratic” U.S. to head its rocket program.
What did I say about the people who really rule this joint?
I said that their motto was…and remains:
And that they do…
But at what eventual cost to the nation as a whole?
Just askin’…
If in the process of “getting it done at any and all costs” they earn the enmity of a majority of the people of the world during a time when terrorism has proven to be a very effective weapon against large economic imperialist predators like the NATO nations…what then?
When does the first nuclear terrorist attack destabilize the entire earth?
Fuck von Braun and his lack of choices!!!
What about our so-called “choices?”
What about karma?
It exists, you knows.
What goes around does come around.
Bet on it.
AG
A challenge to the concept of karma here, one held by many Westerners:
Karma is not something which delivers bad things to people who displease Arthur Gilroy.
Or anyone else, for that matter.
Wikipedia pretty well nails it. (Emphasis mine):
I am fairly sure that you must be referring to the definition espoused by many so-called “centrist” DemocRats.
And Ratpublicans as well.
G’day, mate…
AG
re:
I want to agree with most of what you’re saying, but I feel this sentence is more than the asterisk you’re treating it as:
The Democratic and Republican Parties have colluded over the many decades to install themselves as fundamental institutions of our democracy. Our first-past-the-post elections greatly advantage them, and they have written laws to entrench themselves. If we enacted broader electoral reform which actually removed the two parties from their fundamental status, I think most people would be willing to accept the parties making up their own rules and doing things their way. But when we only have the Democrats or the Republicans, and that is basically forced upon by the system and by laws passed by those parties, I think we have the right to demand more direct accountability to the broader public.
Broader electoral reform would be my preference, but maybe forcing the Parties to knuckle under would be the first step in forcing that to happen.
your thought process is exactly what I’m trying to force on you.
I want you to think about it precisely this way.
BooMan,
I agree 100% with your analysis, and many people seem to forget or can’t get their minds around the idea that the parties are private, undemocratic organizations. They have zero obligation to be responsive to the public will, and only do so to the extent that it favors their own position (e.g., the Dems don’t want a repeat of 1968).
That being said, the parties are to blame for the perception that the voters choose the nominees. In the days when nominees were chosen in the proverbial smoked-filled room, no one had any illusions about how the process worked.
But now, Trump is exactly right. By the time this is over, he will have won more states, more votes, and more delegates. Playing games as to whether he got to the magic number of 1237 delegates is just that, playing games.
If the party doesn’t like the result of their own process, they shouldn’t have chosen this process, and/or shouldn’t have courted voters who would be so supportive of Trump.
If you seek to legitimize your process by allowing voters significant input, you de-legitimize that same process by taking away their input.
This is all backwards.
If the DEM and GOP parties want to be private membership clubs that select their nominees to run in the general election, caucuses that result in the selection of delegates should be in all states and territories that they want to admit to the process that they have defined and paid for. If they want to call the process democratic based on who they admit to their caucuses, that’s fine. That’s how small d clubs work. But it’s not big D democracy as everyone is taught that exists in this country.
When states pay for primary elections, all eligible voters (based solely on citizenship and age) should be allowed to participate. How to handle/manage that can be dicey, mostly because of the DEM and GOP monopolies on our electoral process and the use of State monies and laws/regulations to support those monopolies. The other factor is the electorate’s acceptance that the general election is a contest between one DEM and one PUB. (Other parties need not even apply for general election inclusion on the ballot in many states.)
We could make political parties incidental to primary elections and have candidates run exclusively on his/her own merits with the top two voters in all states and territories advancing to the general election. But then candidates would have to define what she/he stands for instead of using the political party’s boilerplate on positions. How would minimally informed voters (which are the vast majority) figure out who best reflects their positions, etc. And under that process, money would continue to dominate because those not affiliated with the DEM or GOP could rarely marshal the fund required to compete more than a few statewide primaries and thus, wouldn’t be a factor in the general election.
For big D democracy with political parties, voters would have two primary election day choices: political party ballot and candidate preference on that ballot as is operative in many states today. The modification would be that the nationwide winner of each party would appear on the general election ballot, subject to some threshold to eliminate state based fringe parties choosing their favorite son. The concept of delegates would change from actual people (mostly party apparatchiks) to a number.
That would work well when there is competition within each of the parties for the nomination, all of the candidates for the various parties competed in all the primary elections, and all the primaries are stand alone Presidential primaries. What would we do about years like 2004 and 2012? Who would have ended up as the DEM nominee in 2004 if GWB supporters could choose the DEM ballot that year?
Finally, the Electoral College would have to be junked. (The actual delegates selected don’t have any real power today; they are little more than numbers.)
The risk of top two in a primary election with a run-off is Austrian far-right party’s triumph in presidential poll could spell turmoil
(Note – the President of Austria holds a mostly ceremonial role.)
At least one democracy allows for (likely inadvertently) voters to say “a pox on both parties.
If people think something is unfair, you’re not going to persuade them to accept it by saying – as you’ve done here – “It’s always been this way” and “it’s unrealistic to want anything different”.
As you might anticipate, I’m not focused here on what people think is fair. Nor am I absolving anyone from misleading people about how our system works.
I’m talking about what rights people have and how parties should choose their leaders.
And if they want to have a bunch of outsiders come in and force Donald Trump on them, then that’s their decision and they can live with it. Or they can overrule it and deal with the consequences.
But it isn’t rigged or anything. And if people feel that it’s rigged, that’s the fault of the people (and the media) who misled them, and it will lead to bad consequences.
Yes, and — relatedly — it’s one thing to point out that however the party leadership decides to run things is “legitimate”, and quite another for that process to be seen as legitimate.
I think it follows that if you want people to not just support your candidate, but be excited about supporting your camdidate, and willing to support them in concrete ways — making contributions, phone calls, visits — well, one very good way of doing that is to involve as many of them as possible in choosing the candidate.
breaks down:
Here’s how (“the public [has] a right to participate in [party primaries]”): the party decides to hold a primary (i.e., an election) as the means for selecting what candidate the state party will support at the national convention.
Primary elections are elections, governed (here at least) by state law and regulations, and administered by government officials at (significant!) taxpayer expense. Notably, that’s all taxpayers (of the relevant taxes), not just those of the political party in question. So once the party voluntarily chooses to use the election infrastructure to administer its primary, it submits itself to those laws and regulations, which may include things like same-day registration and that the primary be open (both the case here).
This is all being hotly contested/litigated right here in MT even as I write this. Under agitation from some rightwinger in Utah or some such, where a similar case won in some lower court(s), the plaintiffs (the state GOP plus a bunch of individual county GOP committees, IIRC) sued to force the state to allow them to close their primary, legal reasoning being that state law forcing the primary to be open violated their freedom of association under the U.S. Constitution. While it’s possible I could have missed some late-breaking recent development, last I knew they had lost at every stage so far, including, I think, at least one court decision.
My take on all this is that while you’re right that “Parties are under no obligation to hold any primary at all”, once they opt to do so, then the public does gain, not just a legitimate expectation, but the right to expect adherence to democratic norms, law, and standards, including that we who are paying for the party’s primary not be disenfranchised from participation in it, e.g., by closing it to anyone not registered as a party member (or not registered by some arbitrary date prior to election day).
I’ve partially addressed this in other comments, but one thing I’ll add here is that you’re right that state legislatures have the right to regulate elections and parties have to abide by their decisions. But those are decisions made by legislatures, and you note correctly that parties are under no obligation to use their infrastructure.
In Iowa, for example, they don’t. And that’s the first in the nation oh-so-important contest, right?
Kind of proves my point about what rights people have vs. what the party freely grants them.
Just seemed to neglect that a primary is a case where a party has voluntarily opted to subject itself to state law/regulations, thereby also subjecting itself de facto to democratic “expectations” from the “public”.
that’s a good and fair point, although it raises other potential questions like whether a state legislature ought to be able to make any old law that they want. What if it disadvantages smaller parties? What if it disenfranchises people is small ways rather than in big sweeping ways like Jim Crow laws. But generally speaking, a legislature can dictate to parties that want to use their infrastructure, that is true. But people only gain rights thereby insofar as the legislature creates those rights.
This I agree with.
The issue is perception and expectations.
Don’t have a primary listing the candidates if you don’t want the vote to count for something.
Or if you want the party to maintain control, then have people vote for the delegates more directly.
States don’t have rights; they have powers.
And those powers have limits defined by the federal courts.
ring any bells?
Very nicely done, Martin. This is why I keep coming back to this blog.
Parties are basically an inevitable result of democracy. If you create a system where a majority or plurality is needed to accomplish things, then the only way to accomplish things is to band together in some kind of coalition to get you to enough voters to impose your will on the system. The only question is ever how those parties are organized.
If you remove control of the current parties from the current parties, some other method will be found to create strong coalitions, possibly, if we’re lucky, by creating ideas and issues coalitions to control the parties–which would look more less the same as now only more baroque. If we’re less lucky we’ll move to identity or personality coalitions within the parties which are the other two main organizing systems for parties and which are inherently much nastier.
In fact, I would be willing to suggest that Trump is a hybrid personality/identity coalition candidate trying to seize control of a severely weakened ideas/issues coalition party with some potentially very ugly results.
There is no structural necessity for coalitions to be permanent or disjoint over a range of issues.
The US system establishes coalitions under a brand before the vote. Multi-party systems establish parties under a brand and the coalitions form after the vote as “governing” or “opposition”. Muti-party systems are more able to reconfigure themselves and more unstable.
Where there is a permanent class of political officers, personal animosities often shape coalitions more than principles or policy. Southern state legislatures are an excellent example of this phenomenon when one party rules for an exceptionally long time and the primary is “tantamount” to the general election.
“As for the leaders of the Republican Party, if they want to let Donald Trump be their nominee out of some misplaced deference to will of the people, then they’ve already lost control of their party and it stands for nothing. They’ll have to get organized on creating a new party. . .”
On the other hand, if the leaders of the Republican Party put their foot down and pick someone other than Donald Trump, they’ll be in a similar position. A big chunk of their party will leave in a rage, and they’ll have to find some other way to be relevant.
they built that.
Not our problem.
I am sooooooooo glad I am not a Republican.
That’s why at around this point in the election cycle I get very discouraged and start following the NFL draft or the NBA playoffs, or read poetry or write songs.
The game is fixed, it always was, and the charade of democracy goes on. Knowing that the game is fixed does one no good and by pointing it out you only annoy those who still believe in Santa.
the game is only fixed if you don’t know or choose not to know the rules of the game
Age old truism….the losers are unhappy with the system, the winners are fine with it.
True to an extent.
I do have some problems with the current setup. If we are going to stick with the delegate system then it should be a lot clearer in the voting booth. I would advocate taking the candidates names off the ballot and only having the delegates on there.
Also, I think a national party should have national rules or at least limits. Caucuses should be dispensed with, if we’re going to vote for delegates then let’s vote for delegates. Secondly any primary can be open or closed depending on the state. I would add that if a state party chooses to have a closed primary it needs to announce it to all voters via mail/email to include deadlines on when to change parties. Those deadlines by the way should be as close to the actual primary as possible personally I would say within 2 weeks of the primary but that’s just me.
We could also do away with the delegate process altogether and just vote and whomever has the most votes wins regardless of if it’s over half or not.
Maybe back to fundamentals for a minute. Why parties anyway?
We have a system of government with a fundamental federal document and 50 fundamental state documents that provide for citizen election of the officers that carry out the planning and delivery of “public things”. To prevent these from becoming sinecures, the terms of office of those officers is limited.
No just why are we paying $2 billion in addition to election administration to carry this process in Presidential election years? What value is it that parties are delivering? Why organizers anyway, especially professional organizers?
These are especially relevant in light of the extraordinary concern about permanent factions in the Federalist Papers.
Scott Peck in A Different Drum: Community Building and Peace explores the predictable social psychology of the interactions with small groups in most settings. Getting beyond factions is essential to getting most anything done, but the tendency to factions seem a part of the way we interact. The problem with “third way” efforts is not that the sort of social dynamics that Peck describes are not being described. The problem is that the “third way” masks a manipulation into capitulation to one of the factions. If one needed an example of how capitalism (the way of thinking) subverts everything in its path, “third way” co-option strategies should be a textbook example.
And where we are is that talking about the mechanics of primaries is not just a discussion of election mechanics; it is a discussion in which opposing powers have a stake in the outcome of the discussion as the mechanics make harder or easier capture of power and legitimacy.
In the current discussion, I have a stake. And at the moment, neither party is making the mechanics of the process easy for me to participate in have even a smidgen of the power over the decisions through which government will affect my life. Moreover, the current government operations on several instances have broken the social contract with which they secured our allegiance. In the promised scheme of things there would be a means to obtain redress of grievances. “Reasonable” would mean reasonable instead of privileged. And “informed consent” would mean accurately informed.
To the extent that that is not the case, it is the case that those doing the “public things” have evolved their own institutional interests separate from the individuals who work for those institutions and contrary to the public interest. Securing life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness long ago was supplanted by the institutional interests of “leaders”. First the organs of government; then the organized permanent factions of those leaders; then the deliverers of information about the affairs of government; then the patrons of the leaders who benefitted from public actions, public contracts, and public employment. Now there is an entire class of workers for who election years are their Christmas season and who benefit from the partisan propaganda race between the two major parties. And whose sole agenda is to drive the views of the center out to the grassroots, whatever those views might be of the moment. And wonder why the grassroots have been apathetic since World War II.
Any view of small-d democracy of rights should begin with people in their localities and figure out how to get the diversity of those views accurately transmitted for decision-making at the center. The regional institutions that intermediate between the local and the center either accurately represent those views or bias them toward the institutional interests of those regional institutions. Parties have represented themselves as the sole regional institutions that are capable of transmitting views about governance to state and federal legislatures, judiciaries, and functionaries of executive hierarchies. Are they?
Increasingly they are hot-wired by other regional institutions like multi-office law firms. Elections, primary or general mean less and less to the direction of government. And mechanics become a battleground of the major parties jockeying for advantage. And the true believers trying to circle the wagons so that the wider constituency cannot get into the supposed big tent. Mid-process maneuvering of political parties seems to be aimed at ensuring outcomes rather than integrity of process. Blessing the policy result even if it did not reflect the views of the people who voted.
Given the ratfucking the both sides engage in for open primaries, who exactly does own the process of a partisan primary? The regional institutions or the people who have answered the appeal? No one asks what the ratfucking is designed to accomplish; in our cynicism, we just take it for granted that we know what’s going on. It’s a sort of passive sophistication about the ways of the world that gives us a certain smugness about what should be outrage. But there is enough outrage for several lifetimes in current US politics.
What is very interesting is how much the guardians of the process are working very hard this year to sell us on the process that has produced and inevitability and and largest clown car in US history.
This is a sort of academic question (I hope): Who is it that President Donald Trump terrifies most? Surely minorities and immigrants and non-Judeo-Christian believers and who else? And Reince Priebus? Really?
All I ask is you be honest about what has and what has not been “supplanted.”
Because, from where I stand, something has to have existed at some point to be supplanted at a later date.
That’s an excellent question with regard to primaries.
The first primaries occurred when the party bosses couldn’t decide among themselves which of them they should run. (At least according to one Pennsylvania county’s boasting of “first”.)
The Progressive movement of a hundred years ago wanted to use primaries to introduce popular control that would supplant corrupt patronage systems then common (some still today) in states and major cities.
The sort of manipulation that both parties have shown this year harks back to the days of patronage systems. But independents on both sides of the spectrum are wanting more influence in the two major parties this year than previously. But they want to keep their independence as well.
But it is the permanent coalitions and a permanently organized game of politics (see Frank Kent, The Great Game of Politics) that voters are most frustrated with. The very think that causes the hoopla, cheerleading, and trashtalking that political junkies like. And the fact that money subverts their votes in the general election.
Fed-up GOP mega-donors sitting on their checkbooks
04/24/16 10:30 AM EDT
Republican mega-donors, increasingly fed up with their party’s circus-like presidential primary, are sitting on their checkbooks until the nominee is decided.
[…]
Interviews with major Republican donors and fundraisers reveal that many are fed up after early enthusiasm for unsuccessful candidates. Many of these donors spent millions on the super-PACs supporting former Florida Gov. Jeb Bush and Florida Sen. Marco Rubio, former favorites who dropped out of the race after getting throttled by Donald Trump.
[…]
“I have been called and asked for money, and I said, `Once we pick a nominee, then I will give money again,’ ” said Minnesota billionaire Stanley Hubbard, who gave an early $50,000 donation to a pro-Scott Walker super-PAC but has made no significant investment since.
“The problem is that nobody prefers either of those two candidates [Trump or Cruz], and the third candidate [Kasich] no one thinks he has a chance, so why waste your money?” Hubbard told The Hill.
Doug Deason, a multimillionaire Texas businessman whose family spent $5 million supporting Rick Perry and has now thrown $200,000 behind a Cruz super-PAC, said the feeling among his donor friends goes beyond exhaustion.
He said many establishment donors believe their money has been wasted this cycle, with the only winners being the high-priced consultants who have gotten rich by charging commissions on ad buys.
Donors “are upset about how their money was spent and the bang they got for their buck. … They are suspicious, and rightfully so,” Deason told The Hill.
“Somebody should be indicted over Right to Rise,” he added, referring to the super-PAC that spent more than $100 million in a failed attempt to make Bush the Republican nominee.
“I would sue them for fraud.”
The greedy are always the easiest to con out of their money.
.
I had some points of view regarding this subject, but many commenters have made points which are persuasive to me and have me reconsidering my views.
The center of it for me at the moment is this: it is difficult to resolve the conflict between taxpayer-funded primary election processes and the right for a political party to decide for itself what candidates should represent their Parties.
And who defines what a Party is? Martin makes good points here by suggesting that the people who are there, day after day, establishing campaign infrastructures which can help the people endorsed by the Party actually win elections, have earned the right to have more of a say on Party nominations and primaries than, say, the person who shows up on primary day, participates in a Party primary under whatever circumstances their State Party demands, and then never shows up again.
As we have seen, there have been attempts to organize large-scale ratfucking of Party primaries, particularly in States Parties which allow people outside the Party to vote in their primaries. For example, in California the GOP runs a closed Presidential primary and the Dems run open POTUS primary. I haven’t seen a level of “strategical voting” which has the Party’s primary choice made by a large number of people who want to destroy the Party and its values by voting for a candidate who does not reflect the Party’s collective views, but it is possible for the Democratic primary in my state to be influenced in this way.
I think the benefits of giving independents, Greens and others the ability to vote for Party candidates is worth the risk of having voters who do not support the Party platform selecting our POTUS candidate. It’s just important to acknowledge that these cost/benefit analyses must be done for each different situation in each local and State Party.
The other response which I have initially is that I want more of those people who wish the Democratic Party were more progressive to stop their bitching and figure out ways to get yourself in positions of leadership in their preferred Party locally. I disagree that it is impossible to change the Party from within.
In Canada we don’t register for party primaries, we join parties and thus become eligible to participate in the selection of candidates. I’m curious why the American setup is different…probably something to do with checks and balances I suppose. Seems like a crazy way to run a railroad.
Bingo.
American voters, especially young ones, tend to regard registering with a party, or even just voting in that party’s primary, as tantamount to joining the party. And Booman has been trying to say, both in this blog posting and several previous ones this year, that joining a party means a whole lot more than marking a ballot.
OT:
UH HUH
UH HUH
Michigan cops tracking Flint water critics on social media and sharing data with embattled governor
25 APR 2016 AT 13:34 ET
Confronted with information found in emails from Gov. Rick Snyder, as spokesperson for the Michigan State Police admitted her agency is monitoring social media and looking at comments about the Flint water crisis in search of threats.
According to MLive, a State Police senior intelligence analyst highlighted a possible threatening statement following a Detroit Free Press article regarding Flint’s water woes that has roiled the Snyder administration with calls for the governor’s prosecution.
Heh. No surprise there, I guess.
“As for the leaders of the [Democratic Party], if they want to let [Bernie Sanders] be their nominee out of some misplaced deference to will of the people, then they’ve already lost control of their party and it stands for nothing.”
The only thing left to `stand for’ in this modern age is that the party machine shenanigans must be allowed to work in order to protect the mission of the party machine. To consider the will of the people is simply misplaced deference. Bribes have been paid, `investments’ in speeches have been made and super PACs organized. The people who paid out all this money are the ones who rightfully rule our country and they expect their return on investment. How can any self respecting oligarch be expected to rule if these bought people can’t take office?
The only job of any political party is to align its platform and more importantly, its candidates to the preference of the largest number of people as possible even across party lines. If any political party fails this task, the verdict is simple; that party loses the election.
This is the year that the reality of the destruction of the middle class came home to roost. The jobs have gone overseas looking for the cheapest labor and the people are literally dying. This year the choice was going to be between Political Bernie Sanders or Authoritarian Donald Trump to get those jobs back, end of story. Since the machine looks like its strong enough to nominate Crooked Hillary, that choice was made simple.
Take heart Democratic Establishment, you still have control of your party; you just couldn’t deliver on that getting your candidate in office part. Next time maybe you should just skip the primary so the people don’t get all stirred up over some silly idea that we don’t have to accept the status quo.
http://crooksandliars.com/2016/04/meet-gop-secretary-behind-brooklyn-voter
Why would anyone think the Republicans might want to run against Hillary instead of Bernie?
Your link comes far short of proving your inferred answer to the question in your last sentence. Problematically for the claim, the States which have had the largest turnout of voters have gone to Clinton by significant margins. One of the outcomes which has fit with this theme is that Sanders has done better in States which hold caucuses, where voter turnout is lower.
Also, the people who were able to vote in Brooklyn went heavily for Clinton, similar to but at a higher percentage than she won Statewide. Our best current evidence suggests it’s most likely that Clinton was disadvantaged by the improper voter purge.
I shared your belief that Sanders would benefit by higher voter turnouts in the elections which are helping determine the nominee, but our belief hasn’t been supported by the results of the actual primaries and caucuses.
The best evidence is that most of the missing Democratic voters are low income and disproportionately would favor Clinton, as the ones in that same income bracket who have actually voted have done so far.
Sanders isn’t winning the vote of the underclass. Why that is is anybody’s guess, but he’s just not.
Actually, what Bernie has delegitimized is the convenient rationalization that candidates “have to” suck up to the wealthy in order to fund their campaigns.
“Because the system is corrupt, I’m forced to do this, boo hoo. And I promise to do all I can to change the system after it puts me in office. Or maybe after I get re-elected. Well, maybe during my third term …”
yeah, I agree. It’s a major contribution on his part, and it’s really important that people build on it.
I guess the problem would be does it translate to down ticket races. I have a hard time seeing a Congressperson being able to raise enough money the way Bernie is doing.
Presidential campaigns are definitely different.
that’s on Bernie. Honestly. He was way too late in getting in. Probably several years too late. And it became too much about him. Bernie will have two years to translate his movement into a slate of candidates for 2018. That’s a short time frame, but he can get started.
With a Clinton run DNC it would remain impossible for any candidates opposed to neoliberalism to run, same as in the past. The only path for those candidates would be a third party to challenge to both New Democrats and Republicans in the 2018 midterms.
You give up easy.
Since I’ve been a Democrat since the days of JFK’s New Frontier, it was not easy for me to come to the conclusion that the Democratic Party is so corrupted by the influence of Big Money that it is now impossible for it to be reformed without a dramatic change of leadership. It is abundantly clear Bernie Sanders had and does have a winning Democratic message that could overwhelm the Republicans for another 40 plus years, same as FDR. The sad part is that Bill (and Hillary) Clinton’s repudiation of the New Deal is in direct conflict with Bernie’s embrace of the ideas of the New Deal. The Democrats have long ago turned their back on the people in favor of the interests and profit of Big Money then rigged the process to keep it that way.
If after the election, a mass exodus occurs from the Democratic Party, maybe the Democrats will start to think their embrace of DLC/Bill/Hillary style neoliberalism wasn’t such a good idea after all. I think losing an otherwise winnable election would rather dramatically accelerate that process, or maybe not. Losing more congressional seats and state houses in the history of the Democratic Party seemed to barely register.
We’re not giving up on reform, just the Democratic Party as it exists today. Maybe the Democratic Party could realize their Clinton detour to the interests of Big Money was a mistake; that their future really does lie in their return once again to become the party of the people, but I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting.
Yeah, Presidential campaigns are different. They’re much more expensive.
Down-ticket races would generally be easier to fund without sucking up to the oligarchs … at least when the party leadership doesn’t undercut them.
it’s easier to fund Presidential races because there is so much press of the candidates
I have a hard time seeing how a Congressperson can fundraise this way and compete