As promised, I contacted the authors of the study, “Are we witnessing a dishonest election? A between state comparison based on the used voting procedures of the 2016 Democratic Party Primary for the Presidency of the United States of America,” for their response to the criticism to their work posted in the comments to this post. In that email, I included critical comments from my Booman Tribune post regarding the study in their entirety.
Today, I received an email response to the authors’ critics here at Booman Tribune from one of the authors, Axel Geijsel of Tilburgen University in the Netherlands (a.geijsel@tilburguniversity.edu). Here is what Axel sent me in that email:
Dear Steven,
In regards to your earlier email. The criticism that you forwarded to us can be divided in two parts. The first is that we should add additional data in our appendix (most of which we have available), the second is that we shouldn’t have used the exit poll data. The former we have no qualms with and will be more than happy to include, the latter is based on faulty information, and considering the vigor with which they mention it. We could not help but feel it was drivel. Especially given the fact that they linked to a website which was authored by someone who doesn’t know absolute basics of statistics.
Some of the sources coming from media-outlets, from which most of the writers in question knowing very little about statistics (certain articles kind of shocked me). An interesting one of the mentioned sources being from Nate Silver (fivethirtyeight), where he wrote a 10-part critique about exit polling: For which he did not go unscrutinized: [source].
He has received earlier criticism as well from different analysts. [[source]; [source]. And from anecdotal reference, he has been criticized many times more before too.
In short, exit polling works using a margin of error, you will always expect it to be somewhat off the final result. This is often mentioned as being the margin of error, often put at 95%, it indicates that there’s a 95% chance that the final result will lie within this margin. In exit polling this is often calculated as lying around 3%. The bigger the difference, the smaller the chance that the result is legitimate. This is because although those exit polls are not 100% accurate, they’re accurate enough to use them as a reference point. In contrast to the idea that probably 1 out of 20 results will differ. Our results showed that (relatively) a huge amount of states differed. This would lead to two possibilities, a) the Sanders supporters are FAR more willing to take the exit polls, or b) there is election fraud at play.
Considering the context of these particular elections, we believe it’s the latter. Though that’s our personal opinion, and others may differ in that, we believe we can successfully argue for that in a private setting considering the weight of our own study, the beliefs of other statisticians who have both looked at our own study (and who have conducted corroborating studies), and the fact that the internet is littered with hard evidence of both voter suppression and election fraud having taken place.
Corroborating studies and links being: [source] (also a criticism on some of the above mentioned)[source]; [source]; [source]; [source]; [source]; [source]; [source]; [source]
I hope to have provided you with enough ammunition to feel somewhat at ease.
Kind regards,
Axel Geijsel
ps. I have included an attachment, I would advise to look at page 14 and 15.
If anyone has any concerns or questions at this point, I suggest that you email the the authors of the study.
Axel Geijsel email: a.geijsel@tilburguniversity.edu
Rodolfo Cortes email: cortes@stanford.edu
The attachment, due to its length is below the fold. You are, of course free to say whatever you like in the comments, but I suggest that if you have sincere issues with the report, the proper place to begin is contacting the authors.
For myself, I have nothing further to add to their response, or to my father’s comment about the study previously posted here at Booman Tribune.
(Study authors’ attachment follows below fold)
Attachment
Page 1
This report summarizes the results of our review of the GEMS election management system, which counts approximately 25 percent of all votes in the United States. The results of this study demonstrate that a fractional vote feature is embedded in each GEMS application which can be used to invisibly, yet radically, alter election outcomes by pre-setting desired vote percentages to redistribute votes. This tampering is not visible to election observers, even if they are standing in the room and watching the computer. Use of the decimalized vote feature is unlikely to be detected by auditing or canvass procedures, and can be applied across large jurisdictions in less than 60 seconds.
They allow “weighting” of races. Weighting a race removes the principle of “one person-one vote” to allow some votes to be counted as less than one or more than one. Regardless of what the real votes are, candidates can receive a set percentage of votes. Results can be controlled. For example, Candidate A can be assigned 44% of the votes, Candidate B 51%, and Candidate C the rest.
Instead of “1” the vote is allowed to be 1/2, or 1+7/8, or any other value that is not a whole number.
Fractions in results reports are not visible.Votes containing decimals are reported as whole numbers unless specifically instructed to reveal decimals (which is not the default setting). All evidence that fractional values ever existed can be removed instantly even from the underlying database using a setting in the GEMS data tables, in which case even instructing GEMS to show the decimals will fail to reveal they were used. – from http://blackboxvoting.org/fraction-magic-1/
The amount of support Clinton receives among blacks is far higher in states without a paper trail, than the states with a paper trail.
Page 2
Even when adjusting for the proportion of black voters in a state, the amount that votes for Clinton is still disproportionally higher.
[note from the writer, this might indicate that if tampering with the votes has occurred, it would be reasonable to assume that they are added to subgroups which are claimed to heavily favor Hillary Clinton, i.e. black and female voters (for the latter I have not found the time yet)]
Retrieved from: https://richardcharnin.wordpress.com/2016/06/08/democratic-primary-approval-ratings-matching-pre-election-and-exit-polls-indicate-fraud/
Page 3
http://www.gallup.com/poll/190571/sanders-oldest-candidate-looks-best-young-americans.aspx?g_source=&g_medium=&g_campaign=tiles
http://www.gallup.com/poll/191465/millennials-sanders-dislike-election-process.aspx?g_source=&g_medium=&g_campaign=tiles
Page 4
http://www.gallup.com/opinion/polling-matters/192362/clinton-negatives-among-dems-sanders.aspx?g_source=ELECTION_2016&g_medium=topic&g_campaign=tiles
retrieved from: http://www.people-press.org/2016/03/31/4-perceptions-of-the-presidential-candidates-and-primary-preferences/
Page 5
Retrieved from: http://www.people-press.org/2016/03/31/4-perceptions-of-the-presidential-candidates-and-primary-preferences/
Page 6
In the above polls done by Gallup and Pew research center Sanders scores a higher favorability ratings than Clinton. In all the ratings, conducted by these renowned institutes, they found that the favorability ratings for Sanders consistently outperformed Hillary Clinton, with mixed results in the subgroup of African American voters. The last being one of the biggest claimed subgroups which would favor Hillary Clinton. This is in stark contrast with the results in the non paper-trail states, where Clinton won the African American vote with 83%. In the paper-trail states, she only won them with 74% of the votes. The latter lying far closer to the polling results.
Not just that, Sanders outperforms Clinton in almost all the groups and subgroups in these polls, which is in stark contrast with the end results from the primaries. These results in earlier elections often lied very closely to the actual final results.
* * *
In the following pages, graphs are shown containing the cumulative placed votes over time. In sampling, polling, or any other form of statistical analysis. The general rule is that the higher the amount of trials that one does, the more you would get closer to the actual ‘true’ number. Meaning, the more votes that are placed, the more chance that the number that is given is correct.
Because of this, at the start of the polling, the numbers might fluctuate heavily, after which they will stabilize over time. Similar to an 1/x graph. On the following three pages, you will find numerous examples in which the graphs will indeed smoothe out. These are examples of graphs as you would normally find them.
On the three pages thereafter, you will find abnormal curves. Incidentally, all of these changes favored Hillary Clinton. Below the graphs, you will find the p-value as we found through our own proportional analysis. Meaning, the smaller the p-value, the higher the discrepancy between the exit-polls and the final results (i.e. indicating the chance of such an occurrence; e.g. p=0,07 is a 7% chance). These are indications of election fraud taking place.
Most of the normal curves are retrieved from the New York Times website. The abnormal curves have been retrieved from the website of – https://richardcharnin.wordpress.com/category/2016-election/ . The reason for this is because the abnormal graphs have been removed from the mainstream media websites.
“One can also search for trends to check for fraud. One of the most revealing methods, the Cumulative Vote Share Analysis, searches for a correlation between the size of a discrepancy (between recorded vote and exit polls) and the size of a precinct. When no fraud has taken place the trend tends to be quite regular. When the discrepancy tends to manifest as the size of the precinct becomes larger than a certain value, it is a strong indication of fraud, according to Richard Charnin. Roughly speaking the reason for this behavior is that electronic rigging is implemented strategically in order not to become obvious. The discrepancy caused by the rigging is “better” distributed between those precincts that are big enough to be worth the effort.”
– http://www.democracyintegrity.org/ElectoralFraud/just-doing-the-math.html
Page 7
Retrieved from: http://www.nytimes.com/elections/results/west-virginia
retrieved from : http://www.nytimes.com/elections/results/indiana
Page 8
Page 9
Page 10
P = 0,309 ; Favoring Clinton (not significant).
P = 0,00001 ; Favoring Clinton
P = 0,00001 ; Favoring Clinton
Page 11
P = not available
P = 0,247 ; Favoring Clinton (not significant).
Page 12
P = 0,01116 ; Favoring Clinton
P = 0,00012 ; Favoring Clinton
Page 13
– retrieved from: http://showmethevotes.org/2016/03/05/an-open-letter-to-bernie-sanders/
P = 0,000341 ; favoring Sanders
Page 14
Looking at the discrepancies between the exit polls and the final tally, nearly all are in favor of Hillary Clinton by a huge margin. This is statistically impossible (“The probability P of this happening is 1 in 77 billion”).
“A discrepancy between the declared vote (recorded vote) and the vote extrapolated from the exit polls is an indication of fraud when it is above a margin of error of 2% within a confidence level of 95%.
Here is how it works. When statisticians try to measure the ‘real vote’ they not only estimate the final vote count but they also analyze the entire distribution of the data they gathered from the exit poll voter sampling in order to determine the reliability of their final determination. When fluctuations in the data are due to randomness they will follow a statistical distribution that follows the shape of a bell curve, the Gaussian curve. The reliability or unreliability of the sample data doesn’t depend so much on the trustworthiness of those who collect the exit poll voter sampling, but it’s rather intrinsic to the shape of the distribution. From this shape an ‘interval of confidence’ is determined within which we can unquestionably claim our confidence that we got it right with a probability of 95%–always 95%. This interval of confidence is also called ‘margin of error’ (MoE).
Poorly informed ‘experts’ frequently argue that the statistical analysis of exit polls can be misleading because it assumes that real life data is randomly distributed (as in the Gaussian curve) when that’s not always the case. And here is where they are missing a central point. The expectation that sample data will be randomly distributed ALREADY takes into account all possible relevant factors in a practical observation in real life. When extraneous factors intervene, a discrepancy will make the recorded value fall outside of the interval of confidence signaling only one possibility: a systematic error. When this occurs statisticians make further analysis to determine the causes, and either remove the cause or include it into the ‘margin of error’. After 59 years of fine-tuning this process in countless elections around the world statisticians have reached a point where exit polls have become extremely reliable. If the final ‘Recorded Vote’ falls outside the interval of confidence one can assume with a high degree of certainty that the systematic error is intentional. This is why we say that we have a high probability of fraud.”
Retrieved from : http://www.democracyintegrity.org/ElectoralFraud/just-doing-the-math.html
– by Giovanni and Marcello Pietrobon; Berkeley, June 3rd, 2016
Page 15
“My specialty is statistics and I’ve pulled down publicly available data independently, analyzed it myself, and corroborated analyses which points to massive widespread election fraud. Mr. Holland disparages the mathematical work of Richard Charnin*, but I have not found an error in any of the analyses of his that I have repeated.
In particular, his assessment of the binomial probability regarding the likelihood of the exit poll results, is both accurate and appropriate. I have verified it myself. This binomial analysis was ignored by Mr. Holland in favor of criticizing a different approach that was also used. That approach is also sound, but I have not reproduced those calculations. That both models show results that are consistent with the hypothesis of election fraud is more than doubly damning.
If we assume no election fraud, then the two different types of analysis of the exit poll errors are unrelated because one analysis looks at the size of the error while the other is based on whether it benefited Hillary versus Bernie. That they are both consistent with fraud could be considered a third piece of evidence in support of that hypothesis.
There are only two possibilities – a) Bernie supporters are more likely to respond to the poll or b) there is widespread election fraud altering election results in favor of Hillary across the U.S.
Cumulative Vote Share (CVS) analysis pioneered by Francis Choquette shows problems across the nation for the past decade or more. Interestingly enough, places that use hand counted ballots do not show the same trends and within a state, analyzing by machine can show sharply different trends for different equipment. Such analysis shows trends that are indicative of rigging that favors Hillary.
The apparent ease of hacking electronic voting machines combined with the prevalence of election rigging through-out the world and human history.
Lack of basic quality control procedures: In most locations in the U.S., no one – not officials and not citizens – actually verify the official vote counts. Canvassing becomes a sham that involves verifying that yes, the machine produced outcomes all add up to the machine produced totals. In those places where the count was supposed to be publicly verified,citizens watching report blatant miscounting to force a match to the “official results”. Their testimony to election commissioners about such actions were met with a blank stare followed by dismissal of their testimony.
I do not make that statement lightly. I hold a Ph.D. in statistics and have been certified as a Quality Engineer for nearly 30 years. I’ve gone to the extreme of filing a lawsuit requesting access to the voting machine records to verify those election results. So far, I haven’t been allowed access.
[Steven D editorial note: Statement of Beth Clarkson]
– http://showmethevotes.org/2016/06/10/the-theater-is-on-fire/
Good lord, what a pile of bullshit. Where to start?
Enough with this paranoid, stupid crap.
I’m amazed you read, comprehended and analyzed all that information so quickly.
So, as I understand your position, the study initially was too short and didn’t provide the data, then my expert statistician former professor, etc. GOP father’s agreement with its analysis was wrong and he didn’t know what he was talking about, and now a highly detailed answer by th eauthors of the study to all the questions raised previously is bullshit, too.
Impressive consistency from you folks.
Bye
OK, so you don’t understand my points. I don’t know how to state them any more simply.
Steven never, ever responds to anything that questions his post, no matter how clear those questions are.
I know who not to waste my time on.
Oh, if only that were true.
“STILL no explanation of why Secretaries of State (both Democratic and Republican) rigged states for Clinton. Primary votes are not counted by the party.”
Really? No explanation why? Why did 32/33 state Democratic parties launder campaign donations for a Hillary PAC? Who oversees elections in every state?
You may not believe that this study proves what it claims, but your suspension of disbelief speaks more to your politics than the process of elections, which is always messy and often not reflective of the actual vote, or the views of citizens.
Bob, you’re obfuscating things here. Vote counting is done county officials and certified by the secretary of state (typically–some states may have different arrangements). The funding issue you mentioned is about political party organizations. You’re comparing apples and oranges.
Hitlery Killery Shillery about boils down his argument.
When reading through this defense your points 2 & 3 really stood out to me. Hard to believe anyone would take someone presenting these arguments seriously.
Source of “unadjusted” exit polls was Edson, the media coalition pollster for the last several national elections. That has been known for some time. Your continuing repetition of this zombie lie is astounding.
http://www.edisonresearch.com/2016-exit-poll-coverage/
http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/04/21/new-york-primary-why-is-exit-poll-data-adjusted-to-match-fina
l-voting-results/
Steven, you should probably have clicked on those links before posting them. Neither has the early exit poll data.
Honestly, I’d be perfectly happy if you didn’t respond, since I certainly don’t think FPers are under any obligation to engage with commenters. The problem is that you post fake comments: Toasters noted a number of serious omissions with the author’s response, and you tried to tap dance around it.
Either respond to what commenters actually write, or don’t respond at all. Either way is fine with me.
I want to second what Toasters said: this “response” is almost comical in its ineptitude.
The obvious problem with this “study” is that it relies on early exit poll data which everyone knows are inaccurate, so it’s a clear case of garbage in, garbage out. Geijsel’s attempt to refute that shows that he’s wholly uninterested in making a serious case for that data. He notes that many of us linked to Nate Silver, who pointed out serious problems with exit polls (as does everyone who talks about those polls), but Geijsel makes no attempt to rebut any of those points. Instead, he links to an anonymous post on Democratic Underground which casually states that the 2004 election was stolen, and that there may have been systematic and nationwide vote fraud in the 2008 primaries.
It would seem to go without saying that if someone suggests your data are flawed, it’s not a good idea to link to a post like that.
Geijsel does some hand waving about early exit polls having a margin of error of only 5%, but he’s simply demonstrating that (at best) he’s totally ignorant of the fundamental problems with those polls: non-response bias, and a skew toward Democrats which has been noticeable since 1988. He also doesn’t understand that the primary purpose of exit polls is not to predict who won, but to analyze who voted.
And, of course, if Geijsel actually knew anything about exit polls, he would have known that younger, more educated voters are more likely to complete them. That’s why exit polls overstated Obama’s support by 4.7% in the 2008 general election:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/06/2012-exit-polls_n_2038617.html?1352178067
That’s also why exit polls overstated his support by over 7% in the 2008 primaries.
So there’s a very obvious and simple reason why Bernie did better in the exit polls: his supporters were more willing to complete the surveys. — as anyone who knows anything about exit polls would have predicted.
Either that, or you could believe there was a nationwide conspiracy involving dozens or even hundreds of officials who were willing to commit multiple felonies to elect a candidate that many of them did not support — and yet no one has come forward!
Jeff Greenfoeld said exit polls are like crack cocaine to certain people. In Geijsel’s case, that’s especially true.
DiTourno–
Do we even have evidence that they’ve used the unadjusted exit polls as they claim? They link to a spreadsheet, but that’s just some numbers put up by a guy. Joshua Holland says that the unadjusted are never released by Edison, and I find him credible. I also can’t find any unadjusted numbers by Googling, except for that one spreadsheet by that one JFK assassination buff.
Is there any reason to believe their numbers at all?
I’ve seen other people say that Edison doesn’t release their early numbers, too, so I have no idea if those are the actual numbers or not. But think about that: the early exit polls aren’t reliable, but the authors of this study have no idea if they even have the early numbers. And that’s what they’re using to allege a nationwide conspiracy to commit felony vote fraud.
It’s beyond parody.
Speaking of which, here’s something from the JFK conspiracy theorist’s blog:
“Sanders leads by approximately 780,000 votes (51.5-48.5%), assuming a) caucus votes are included, b) unadjusted exit polls represent the true vote, c) 10% of Sanders voters were disenfranchised and d) 5% of Clinton’s votes were fraudulent early/absentee ballots. “
https://richardcharnin.wordpress.com
Yeah, I totally trust his numbers.
I have only had time to follow the outlines of this debate, but my understanding is that the core thesis is that the voting machines must have been rigged because Hillary did much better in Primaries that used them than she did elsewhere.
However my understanding is that Sanders did much better in States using Caucuses (and not voting machines) because he had a much better organised and committed activist base more likely to attend a caucus than Hillary’s more diffuse support.
If that is the case, could the discrepancy be caused as much by the difference between running a primary via a Caucus and running it more like a general election?
I have no skin in this game, and would much prepare a voting system with a paper trial, but it seems the burden of proof that the system is rigged is high, and has not been met on this occasion.
Hi Frank,
It’s all about the use of paper ballots in primaries vs. using paperless voting machines. They don’t even mention caucuses, presumably because the coincidence of massive Bernie victories and very little paper trail would inconvenience their argument.
Does any caucus use paperless ballots?
“Voting is often done by raising hands or breaking into groups according to the candidate participants support.”
http://www.factcheck.org/2008/04/caucus-vs-primary/
And when one group tries to claim a higher count than the number of people present, the other group immediately challenges them.
Not a paper trail but not so easy to rig the results.
The Iowa GOP uses paper — that’s how they discovered later on in ’12 that Santorum and not Romney won.
Yes, that’s why I say that it’s laughable to think Bernie rigged them (not that this stops the accusations of rigging the caucuses from Bernie’s supporters). It is equally laughable to think that Hillary’s enemies rigged primaries in her favor. But somehow you’re not laughing.
Don’t believe so. It’s paper or counting bodies that are then converted to delegates and that number is recorded and reported up to the county level of the party organization.
Most caucuses have paper trails. I’d expect that such an expert in elections like you would know that. Those that don’t, such as the Iowa Democratic caucus raised enough questions this year that the Des Moines Register asked to audit the results and the Iowa Democratic party told them to f**k-off.
If you read the initial paper they did in fact discuss the caucuses.
Thought so, but chose not to go back and check that point and limit myself to pointing out “calling …”‘s ignorance of caucuses in general.
They discussed two caucuses, the “rigged” ones a.k.a. the ones where Bernie’s supporters were really angreeeee.
Elections in the US have always been controlled by the elite. For the first half of our country women couldn’t vote. In some places voting was limited to landowners. Minorities have always been discouraged if not outright banned from voting.
But there is also the whole idea of the “first primary,” that is, who has the money and party approval to make it into the discussion.
In the sixties a different element was introduced, that is, the murder of “dangerous” politicians by our intelligence services. It was modified to use the media and negative stories to drive adventurous thinkers out of politics. The whole Gary Hart with woman on lap thing killed him politically as well as a bullet in Dealey Plaza.
We know how the media has handled Sanders’ campaign. If he were viewed as a viable threat to the scripted story he would have suffered some rapidly spreading illness to take him out of the picture. The prevailing narrative allowed him in, for awhile, but before a vote was cast the result of this was decided.
Then there is the whole superdelegate brake to make sure the people don’t go crazy and elect someone who actually represents their interests.
Again, I do not have any background in statistics, so I can’t comment on this particular study.
But election theft is a theft of a thousand little cuts. Not having enough ballots at this site, the overuse of provisional ballots at that site. Voting machines spitting out curious results.
Anyone who thought that George W. Bush gave a shit about helping Americans vote is clueless as to how the ruling class exists.
I forget who wrote it, but I came across this a few decades ago:
“Democracy is the cover story.” That is, we are capitalist, the goals of our country are designed to further enrich the rich. Our ruling class uses the hope of democracy to renew the dream. It’s not quite as effective as the promise of heaven to motivate the hoi polloi, but it’s worked so far. The concept of democracy makes Americans feel better about themselves and superior to the rest the of world, but in reality the ruling class already held the election long before the peons got their ballot guides in the mail.
I know this is terribly negative to post in a site that’s pretty dedicated to everything political, inside and out. Sorry, Boo, that’s what my 65 years on this planet tells me.
Bob, I did what I said I would do after my first post about this study was criticized. Those who, for whatever reasons, continue choose to engage in ad hominem attacks and name calling rather than addressing the points raised by numerous statisticians, several with PhD degrees and impressive CV’s, are free do to so if they wish. I have done what I promised.
I am not going to bother trying to convince people who refuse to accept that any criticism of our deeply flawed election process or critism of the presumptive nominee of the Dems (Clinton Foundation favor trading, Millions earned from speeches to mega-corporations, the Hillary Victory Fund scam, the FBI investigation re: HRC’s use of private e-mail server, her upport from neocons including Henry Kissinger, support for fracking, and on and on and on).
Whether out of devotion to HRC or because they might be on the payroll of Correct the Record, I don’t know, and I no longer care to engage on these topics here further.
I recall when debate was measured and civil here. That has not been the case lately. You can decide why that might be on your own. I will say this: I do not blame Martin. He had nothing to do with the drop in the level of discourse at his blog.
Steven, your claim that critics of your inferred claim here are employed by Correct The Record is astoundingly insulting to the readership at the Frog Pond. It makes me furious, and it greatly disappoints me that you are unwilling to respond to critiques of this study in a reasonable way.
I’m also very disappointed that you want to run us off to the study authors and have us engage with them instead of engaging with you here. You’re playing a shady game which edges into the idea that you’re merely presenting this info so we can discuss it, as though you may be persuaded by the discussion in these threads. It’s apparent that you have no plan to engage in a real consideration here which may lead you to agree with some critiques of the study. Instead, you call us propagandists and wipe your hands of us.
I’m not a statistician, but others are taking to task the efficacies of the study’s statistical assumptions. I won’t ask the study authors to respond to the following question, Steven; I’ll ask you to defend it, since you have placed yourself in this position. How can you defend the decision by the authors to only bring Iowa and Nevada into the consideration of the caucus results while ignoring the caucus results in the many States where Sanders achieved smashing victories?
You forgot about Vince Foster.
Steven, this is a typical comment from you. When commenters present substantial and factual critiques of your posts, you do some hand waving then accuse us of being paid trolls.
Here’s the thing: even if we were, it doesn’t change the fact that our critiques are factual and substantial. However, that allows you to do your bogus ad hominem and dance away.
Here’s the problem: EXIT POLLS ARE NOT RELIABLE. We’ve known this for years, so when someone alleges nationwide vote fraud based on unreliable data, the BT readers are going to get pissed off — and rightly.
You post ridiculous conspiracy theories which you can’t support (remember Ryan Hughes? We’re still waiting for evidence on that) and then you whine about the level of discourse.
You posted a bullshit study which you didn’t understand. You deserve to be called out on it — loudly and forcefully.
When you don’t raise any facts, I see no reason to engage in arguments. Simply making a claim does not make it a fact.
Steven, this is a serious question: are you stupid or just lying? I have posted links to Nate Silver, Nate Cohn, Mark Blumenthal and the executive vice president of Edison Research all of which explain why exit polls are not reliable. And if you weren’t a hack, you would have done a Google search before posting an idiotic “study” written by graduate students using unverified data from a JFK conspiracy theorist’s blog.
And no, Edison does NOT include the early exit polls on their website, so you couldn’t be bothered to even check your links.
Is this some kind of performance art? Are you reverse trolling me? Because I find it hard to believe that anyone could so fundamentally misunderstand the issues here.
The prevailing narrative allowed him in, for awhile,..
No, it didn’t. They ignored him just as they did the other three. Except it was more difficult to completely do so once the 6/15 FEC filings were submitted and he’d had solidly fundraising and most spending. But he still go virtually no media coverage of the next three months as he held large rallies throughout the country.
Suspect that team HRC expected a minor challenge from MoM, but Bernie was a joke on a par with Chafee. Until mid October than the 9/30 FEC filings were reported and he was in a solid lead in NH. Then the team HRC and media attacks began and they had to continuously ramp them up because he didn’t go down lie the GOp jokers did.
“In the sixties a different element was introduced, that is, the murder of “dangerous” politicians by our intelligence services.”
Do tell.
No, wait: don’t.
Lots of graphs and charts. But the authors still did not reply to my criticism about separating the results into two subsets: they have to do some tests to show, at a reasonable confidence level, that those two populations are distinct.
Would Steven D please explain why the latest set of graphics includes graphs and tables dealing with candidates’ “favorables”? Those are opinion poll results.
I don’t think that more circles and arrows and graphs and p-values are going to convince anyone, so how about if the discussion shifts to asking the proponents of the fraud claim to advance some hypotheses about how the nationwide fraud was pulled off. I’m going to list a few issues/questions, some of which have probably been raised by previous commenters:
Thank you.
“Eight of the 10 states without a paper trail are in the South,”
I made this point in the last thread and there’s been no response.
I think what the authors have discovered is this:
So they found a correlation and mistook it for causation.
I think this is exactly right. If Steven D. has an alternative explanation, e.g. a conspiracy of the GOPs in the Southern states that voted overwhelmingly for HRC, he needs to explain what happened and how it happened.
Oh, he’ll have no response and no explanation because, you see, people who ask for an explanation are part of the conspiracy. Asking for an explanation is obviously a distraction tactic.
Let it go Joel, let it go.
Take deep breathes while envisioning the soothing sounds of the wind rustling leaves along a forest floor, with birds chirping in the background.
.
Can I put a bear in there? A hungry bear?
As long as it’s a koala bear.
.
Here you go
I’ll leave it up to you on which is Sanders.
.
Drat! Dead link.
.
here you go
Which is Sanders?
LOL!
Hey, at least he’s taken down that idiotic “Best CA Clinton Exit poll off by +20 points” post. Baby steps, my man; baby steps.
The votes in California are still being counted. Several counties have flipped from HRC to Bernie as the counting has continued.
Humboldt one of Bernie’s best: 68.0% and HRC 31.0%
Hmmm. Late counts = more time for shenanigans = rigged for Bernie.
Why won’t someone expose his evil control of the process?!
Toasters, have you received your check from David Brock yet? I’m still waiting for mine.
Sorry, I meant to get those out last week. I’ll get to them soon.
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Hurry the hell up! I need that money to buy some superdelegates!
Paper ballots — paper trail. But thanks for removing all doubt that you could be other than a troll.
It was a joke, moron.
Axel Geijsel
Student at the Universiteit of Tilburg
https://nl.linkedin.com/in/axel-geijsel-8aba4395
Education
Universiteit of Tilburg
2013 – 2018
We have moved from Dean Chambers to Duane Gish, as we hurdle headlong into the Andrew Wakefield abyss.
But let’s assume good faith for a moment. Here are three questions one might naively ask about this particular conspiracy theory: How are exit polls conducted? What is a reasonable expectation of error? What decisions are made when exit polls are adjusted?
The first question is easy to answer:
What is a reasonable expectation of error?
What kind of adjustments are made to exit polls, and why?
In other words, the purpose of exit polling (in the United States) is to provide fodder for primetime news broadcasts (millennial women prefer Bernie! Assholes prefer Trump!). They are sourced from a single pollster and adjusted constantly to account for projected demographics and turnout. This is true with both “early” and “late” exit polling data. This is without considering issues of sampling error beyond clustering (e.g. self reporting).
As to the hypothesis correlating unadjusted (source of this data?) exit polling discrepancies and paperless voting, you may be surprised to find out that I remain thoroughly unconvinced.
There is one reality that existed before this analysis and remains even if the analysis is demonstrated to be incorrect.
The Global Electoral Management System (GEMS), developed by Diebold and passed off to Essvote had before 2004 significant problems and questionable features and still appears to have a lot of the same problems and features.
The Democratic campaign for the general election better come to terms with how to deal with auditing these particular machines and being able to lodge protests should those audit tests fail.
We still don’t get the variance information except for a lecture on what margin of error means.
Is there a comparative list of the states with a paper trail and the states without? Are the counties and precincts uniform in conforming to that pattern?
This is less than clear, and yet we know that the voting machines in question (there is evidence that all of those states used GEMS machines exclusively, is there not?) have had and reportedly still do have issues in reporting the voting accurately. But sunk cost.
“A conservative is a man with two perfectly good legs who, however, has never learned how to walk forward.”–Franklin D. Roosevelt
That’s the footnote to every one of Steven D’s comments. Does it apply to his Republican statistician father as well?
The greatest thing about all of these fraud claims is this: the news media won’t find anything to pursue, so the “investigation” will wither, meaning that all the folks convinced that the fix is in will be even more certain of the rightness and righteousness of their cause, and their belief that The Powers That Be are out to crush it.
A third front-page post for this ostensibly lefty version of “Unskewed Polls”? Steven, in his persistence, is making a point, but it’s less about the results of the elections, and more about how we got to those results.
Yesterday’s election in DC demonstrated yet again Sanders’ critical failure to persuade non-white voters: A reality that was evident at least as early as the SC primary in February. Throughout the campaign Sanders insisted on the idea that non-white voters would rally to him when they understood (ahem) that his policies served them best. When he repeatedly failed to close the deal, he sought increasingly elaborate explanations: Initially in “southern conservativism” and later, with little sense of irony, in accusations of voter suppression.
Sanders refused to acknowledge that he did not improve with exposure, losing not just the South, but all of the large and diverse states by wide margins: Not just California, but also Texas, Florida and New York. When DC’s results came in, they were, like most of the contests before, consistent with both polling and demographic models. Nate Silver’s “Polls-Only” model predicted the outcomes with something like 93% accuracy.
Sanders, and many of his followers, were convinced that the candidate, by virtue of his policy positions, should appeal to minorities. They could not accept that this imperative that they perceive is a subjective fact without an objective basis. So it is, for example, that Sanders harped ceaselessly on campaign finance reform, scarcely conscious of the way that he subordinated the importance of the court decision gutting the Voting Rights Act.
Repeating yourself while raising your voice is rarely a persuasive rhetorical tactic. It didn’t work for Sanders. It’s not working for Steven, either.
This debate has reached a paralysis, no movement can be made without more information or the search for more information.
The data shows what it shows, and overwhelming conclusion from both sides is the same: either there is election fraud taking place or the methodology of the exit polls is faulty (or both). So where do we go from here?
1. We must all agree that there is a lack of transparency, it is difficult to find the raw data, un-adjusted data. Whether or not you believe in the claim of election fraud, there must be unanimous call for exit polling from multiple sources with published methodology and raw data accessible to all.
What are the reasons given for the cancellation of exit polls in the final states? It is important that all elections have a process (more than audit) that checks if manipulations have occurred in the counting of ballots.
2. Suspicions have generated from an overall feeling that every measurement of support involving real and visible people showed greater support for Bernie. There are possible reasons for this to have occurred legitmately but this idea needs to be properly and thoroughly investigated.
3.One of the reasons given for exit poll discrepancy is that exit pollsters overestimated the amount of young people who would turnout. What explanations have been given for youth turnout being so much lower than expected? I’ve heard that exit pollsters base their projections on modelling of demographics and then multiplying each demographic by expected turnout- including by age (this negates the point about more young people taking the surveys) – is this true?
We need to know the process!
4. Finally, even if you do not believe that the data proves election fraud this does not mean you should be certain election fraud did not take place. What evidence is there it didn’t take place?
Surely all statisticians believe in a proper method of random sampling to produce a P value. If doubt can not be removed, the debate must move on to what method of random sampling would sufficiently prove or disprove election fraud. Any suggestions?