It may be anecdotal, and perhaps Markos is putting a little too much emphasis on one data point, but it’s worth noting the results of the latest Marquette poll out of Wisconsin. It shows both Hillary Clinton and Russ Feingold winning there, but the unusual thing is that they’re both doing better with likely voters than with registered voters. As Markos says, this is “like flushing toilets suddenly reversing direction, or gravity working up instead of down. This doesn’t happen.”
Democrats are the ones who do better when turnout is higher, not the the other way around. But the polls shows that Hillary’s seven percent lead with registered voters jumps to a nine point lead with likely voters, and Feingold’s four point lead with registered voters likewise jumps to a nine point lead with likely voters.
Is it possible that Trump is depressing enthusiasm in the Republican base?
If this is happening in Wisconsin it still could be an isolated phenomenon, since we know that Trump fell flat on his face during the Badger State primary. He was shunned by right-wing radio there and he’s no friend of Governor Scott Walker. Plus, his high profile disagreements with Speaker Paul Ryan can’t help.
On the other hand, as Jeff Greenfield points out in a long Politico piece today, it’s beginning to look like Trump is losing even the tepid support of the Republican Establishment.
There’s another reason raising character questions about a fellow party member is problematic: Firing harsh judgments about character across party lines is relatively cost-free; attacking “one of your own” can come at serious political cost.
And that’s what makes the retreat from Trump among so many Republican officeholders all the more remarkable. Even if the idea of changing the convention rules to “unbind” delegates and deprive Trump of the nomination is fanciful, the “non-endorsements,” “rescissions” and Talmudic “I’ll support but not endorse” adds up to something close to astonishing.
It is also a sharp reminder that Trump’s triumph in the primaries, and the prospect that he will lure disaffected Democrats and armies of first-time voters to the polls, may obscure a counterpoint: A striking number of committed Republicans and conservatives, including donors, operatives and foot soldiers, are prepared to withhold their support, their money and their votes that would have gone to any other Republican nominee.
Unlike so many in the GOP base, who see in Trump’s behavior a fearless willingness to take on a corrupt political system, these Republicans are seeing signs that he is a dangerous figure, not for what he thinks, but for who he is. And no amount of speeches read from a Teleprompter reciting anodyne pieties is likely to change that.
I’ll save my thoughts on this for another piece, but here’s a teaser. While it has certainly seemed like Clinton has moved to the left to confront the challenge on her flank from Bernie Sanders, there is now such fertile ground in the center that she may be able to collect up a lot of disaffected voters from the center-right.
These two things don’t have to be mutually exclusive, but they do create a certain tension. Can Clinton solidify her left flank at the same time that she reassures the middle that she’s the proper steward for our country right now?
Clinton should focus on the base, since that’s what she really needs. For the center, all she has to say is, “You may not agree with my policies, but I will not embarrass the US or accidentally blow up the world.” Anyone who doesn’t think that’s enough reason to vote for her is probably beyond reach.
If centrist republican votes are up for grabs, a Clinton will always punch a hippy to grab a few. It’s in their DNA. She will turn on a dime if she can get away with it.
Naahhhh…
She’ll pick up a dime…or a few hundred thou…if she can get away with it.
AG
We’re still “betting on” a Trump sweep, right, Arthur? (“Like Dat”?)
No. I only bet on fairly sure things. I have no idea whether either Trump or HRC will make it unscathed to November. Both have equal downsides; both have many enemies.
I will say this, though…the current almost totally anti-Trump cant of the mass media will do nothing other than to help his cause with those who no longer trust the PermaGov as it now stands. Are they a real majority? Will they vote in November? If they do, will the fix be enforced by other, non-mass media means?
We will soon see, won’t we.
AG
We’re seeing it now. And it isn’t pretty for the Orange One.
If one prominent Republican in Congress said this:
“I can use my vote in Congress to slow down Hillary Clinton. I don’t know if anything I do could stop Donald Trump.”
That would be the end of Donald Trump. Only problem is that it could resuscitate life for the GOP downballot. But my guess is that somebody will end up saying something very close to that.
Since she can win with the left or the disgruntled Republicans, I guess this is a good test of what she really wants.
What she probably really wants (and maybe you too) is a WIN. The question is the calculus of that. As someone downpost pointed out, the convention wisdom is move left in the primary and center for the general.
This “hole in the middle” that Booman is point out re: Trump is also true for Clinton to some degree. There has been a significant attack on Clinton (just read posts here) from Sanders. It has mostly sullied her credibility. Any move she makes to the middle, it seems to me, will be characterized by Trump as “punching the hippie” (as folks here so conveniently say, and it’ll be followed by his verbal appeal to the Sanders folks. See, can’t trust her. Says one thing but changes her tune to try to win you over (as opposed to the “speak it like it is” guy that he thinks he is).
Anyhow, this could be a very low turnout election. People just disgusted with the system. I’ve never heard “rigged” and “corrupt” so much. I’ve never seen so many claims of fraud in elections from Democrats, ever.
You write:
“I’ve never heard “rigged” and “corrupt” so much.”
Y’know why?
Because mote and more people are finally waking the fuck up to the PermaGov fix that has been solidly in place since ther JFK assassination.
That’s why!!!
All’s I can say is:
‘Bout time!!!
It took 50+ years, but it’s finally just about here.
The Great Awakening.
Watch.
The results may not be pretty…especially at first…but the fix is long overdue for an ass-kicking.
If not this time?
Next time.
For sure!!!
Watch.
AG
AG
Sure, Arthur — the Bernie supporters and Trump supporters will unite and overthrow the two party system.
By the way (and I’m sure people have said this before) but “anarchist” and “nonarchist” mean the same thing, and there’s no way to be both a “nonarchist” and a “multiarchist.” That’s like being a meat-eating vegan.
Roughly 60% of the eligible population in the U.S. does not vote at all, DiTourno. Why? Most of them are too busy surviving to be “supporters” of any candidate, and in my opinion most of them also think that the whole political spectacle is a sham as it stands now. This “Trump/Sanders” thing is merely the beginning of a movement that will grow stronger over the next several years, a movement to, as the old saying goes, “Throw the bastards out!!!”
Will it succeed? I don’t know. Martial law and true dictatorship are the only things that will stop it other than shutting down the whole internet, because it is internet-created. The rapidly expanding information revolution has now gotten to a point where it has become so easy to see how corrupt the system really is that great masses of people are beginning to understand that they have been totally ripped off by their so-called leaders. The whole Assange/Wikileaks/Snowden occurrence ripped the curtains away from the back rooms where the dirty work is done. The recent Panama Papers thing is another monkey wrench publicly thrown into the Big Machine, and there’s lots more where that stuff came from.
Your “Bernie supporters and Trump supporters” are just the tip of the iceberg, 6/7ths of which is still totally hidden. But the U.S. ship of state…supposedly as unsinkable as the Titanic and certainly captained by some truly foolish officers who are too busy stealing to keep a sharp watch…is getting closer and closer to that unavoidable impact moment.
This election? Next election?
Whenever.
It’s coming.
Watch.
AG
P.S. There are similar movements all over Europe now. They present different political faces, but they are all really about common people waking up to their serfdom. Will the various ships of state veer to the left or to the right to avoid damage? Damned if I know. But if they don’t move in some direction they are going down, down, down. Bet on it.
P.P.S. Google “nonarchist definition.” You’ll learn something…if indeed you are capable of learning anything at all. If not, at least you have lots of company. As far as that “”nonarchist/multiarchist” thing is concerned, I explain the similarity quite clearly in my sig. I trust no governments. None of them. I believe in none of them. They are simply situational responses to the necessities of survival for varying sizes of groups of people. I could survive…and have survived…quite well under a number of different types of government all over the world, from the vicious military dictatorship of Hosni Mubarak in Egypt right on through the near-anarchy of Russia immediately after the collapse of the U.S.S.R. and on leftward to the Scandinavian socialist regimes. You do what you must to survive. Obey the laws while you are there and get the fuck out if you don’t like what’s happening. Is there an ultimately “good” or “best” form of government?
I quote Winston Churchill:
So far, so good. We’re still surviving.
Maybe it’s about to get better.
I quote MLK Jr.:
We shall see…
I think you and I live on different planets.
Bet on it.
Me too.
AG
You seem to project your feelings onto “the people” a whole lot.
If i were to do that i would say “people have gotten a lot extremer in their opinions, and its aggregated by the internet, but the internet is an immature communication medium, but it will grow up eventually.
Because of that there is a lot of distrust that spreads very rapidly, there is little to temper harmful sentiments. Together with the financial crisis, there is a crisis in the trust of our leaders, and since there is no easy answer who to blame its used to blame “others”, whoever is that target.Eventually it will calm down when the economy recovers, and people will forget about the revolution, unless we really fuck things up, then everything could happen.”
But i wont project my feelings like that onto people, it makes me talk out of my ass a lot.
You write:
Yes.
That is quite apparent.
I personally try not “project my feelings” very much as a socio-political writer, because feelings…emotions…are so volatile. One moment I might be screaming for someone’s blood, an hour later I might have given up all hope and an hour after that I might be praising the universe for its omnipotence.
Instead, I…except for an occasional bout of utter frustration with a few kneejerk leftinesses here…simply try to report on what I have observed from the particularly wide point of view that has been granted to me by my position as a musician who has traveled through almost all levels of society in almost all areas of the world over the previous 45+ years.
You don’t like what I have to say?
Great.
I’ll keep trying anyway.
AG
I think it reflects that Hillary is winning more support among dedicated and well-informed voters, while Trump is winning more support among casual and clueless voters. Trump’s stands are surreal even by the standards of Republican candidates.
By “dedicated and well-informed voters,” I assume that you mean people like you. people who agree with you.
By “casual and clueless voters” I further assume that you mean people who are not like you.
News flash:
You are obviously a kneejerk Dem voter. That’s ok, of course…gotta have kneejerks around to work in and support the bureaucracies. But here’s the problem:
At their lowest ebb, both Bush II and Obama held just under about 30% approval ratings. These are the kneejerk DemRats and Ratpubs.
This means that 40% of the poll-answering electorate remain undecided. And there is a huge non-poll-answering public as well. Some say it resembles the 6/7ths that doesn’t appear above water in an iceberg…the missing “dark matter” in the voting universe.
Now…the voter turnout in recent presidential elections has officially hovered roughly 55% of the eligible voters. That essentially means that kneejerk DemRats and Ratpubs are both outnumbered by “undecided likely voters” by about 10% of the total “likely” vote, and they are also outnumbered by somewhere in the neighborhood of 65% by a combination of undecided “likely” voters and those who have not…yet or often…been motivated to vote at all!!!
Talk about your potential landslide!!!
Your “casual and clueless voters”…by your own definition, those who support RatPubs and those who rarely if ever vote…comprise a huge majority of all eligible voters. God help your DemRat party if only half of your “casual and clueless” voters decide they are sick of the fix and vote for the only remaining candidate who is furiously…although quite probably falsely…promoting himself as the “anti-fix” candidate!!!
Landslide city!!!
That’s where we are headed now, curtadams.
Bet on it.
The weight of the overall failure of the past 24 years of PermaGov fix now rest squarely on HRC’s shoulders.
Are you better off than you were in 1992?
Is the country?
Think she can carry it?
I don’t.
AG
Good to inject a dose of realism over that big silent majority. Not that I believe they are ready to move, yet.
Mino, where did you see anything resembling realism in Arthur’s comment?
Curious, then. What are your numbers for the sullens? They certainly show up to show disapproval for Congress and the direction we are headed. We are experiencing historic numbers of negativity from the general public.
But, Obama… Charming fellow has managed to wash his hands of most of it thanks to Mitch McConnell, who is not charming at all. Even to his voters.
I’m not sure what you’re trying to say.
Mainly, I was agreeing it is good to remember that only a thin sliver of the eligible population actually votes for the winner. Under 20%, usually.
And that taking in the disgruntled temperature of the times (as it is measured), one might impute a “pox on all” sentiment to be fairly prevalent among that non-voting segment. And hopelessness, perhaps…
Yeah, I agree with that — I just don’t see how a huge number of non-voters would become voters in primaries.
Well then…I guess that you do not “agree with that.”
if a a “pox on all sentiment” is very widespread amongst the majority of U.S. voters and a candidate runs his campaign on precisely that idea, could you you not see how large numbers of hitherto uninvolved voters wuld be moved to vote for him?
Duh!!!
AG
No.
Shorter AG: as long as an explicity racist, dictatorial, fascist-friendly POTUS candidate might break up the PermaGov, I think it would be rational for the American people to elect that candidate as their President. One PermaGov destroyer is as good as another.
And our AG has the gall to quote MLK upthread. Whatta guy.
You write:
“Rationality” has nothing to do with it. This situation is well past rationality. It is not “rational” to hail Barack Obama as some sort of peace president, nor is it rational to embrace HRC’s candidacy as some sort of progressive movement. It is not. She is owned and operated by the totally regressive .01%. The mass media do not work on “rationality,” they work of emotion…on image, just exactly as does the advertising that pays them.
Brewed in the same aluminum vats with the same chemical additives as is every other mass-produced American beer.
Owned by the same interests that have owned the last three preznits.
Wake the fuck up.
AG
We know, we know. Given the choices we will have before us in November, you don’t have a problem with a Trump victory.
Just keep on sinking this in, Arthur. Adding this to your bromances with Ron and Rand Paul and Cliven Bundy, and your support for voter ID laws, and your willingness to listen to your racist friends without pushing back on them at all and reporting out their sentiments to us here at the Frog Pond, there’s absolutely no reason for us to believe you are interested in supporting far right wing white supremacists.
No, not at all.
You writed:
No. More two-dimensional thinking. I have a problem with both likely possibilities. You lockstep leftinesses think that you are somehow better than the people who support Trump. You are not. You are both simply two sides of a totally counterfeit coin.
Meanwhile, the murderous economic imperialism that is responsible for getting us into this fix in the first place will continue no matter who “wins”.. The only differences will be tactical, and the number of mortal enemies that the U.S. earns will continue to rise in a geometric progression.
How long will it take for this progression to break our system, no matter who is (
s)elected president?I really don’t know.
But…short of real change in the system…it is as inevitable as was the breakup of the U.S.S.R.
Watch.
My own guess?
A Trump election will accelerate it.
Is that good, bad or just another wash?
Damned if I know.
You?
AG
Tell us more.
No.
AG
I am so much better off than I was in ’92. Many people who aren’t white straight cis men are better off. In part, thanks to the Clintons.
You…whomever you are however you may define yourself…are in the minority as far as being “better off.” I do not dispute your statement; I am simply saying that a huge percentage on the U.S. population…black, brown or beige, any of the 7 sexes and ages of humankind and in all economic brackets…are not better off now than they were in 1992. And…these people are pissed off and looking for a way back.
We are in a reactionary system now, tb92, a system that is now reacting against the many changes that have occurred in this society during the past 25 years or so. So is Europe. A balance will be found, regardless of what any of us think. That’s what majorities do, eventually. The sheer weight of a “majority” eventually balances out the left-to-right societal and political seesaws and the center holds.
Or:
Which would you prefer?
AG
There was a poll a few days ago that asked people when the US was at its best. Most people, including Trump supporters, the GOP in general, and Dems, chose the year 2000, at the end of Bill Clinton’s administration. And most primary voters chose Hillary to be our next president. The obvious reason is that more of us believe continuing the Clinton/Obama policies are a good idea. If you think things were better after the Reagan/Bush years, you are in for a great deal of disappointment.
Curious, do you have a link. I found a recent Ras poll, but it doesn’t sound like that one…
Arthur, the idea that “we are in a reactionary system now” is so transparently false that to state it is to refute it.
And I love Yeats, but that’s a bad, reactionary poem, so I have no idea why you’d cite it.
Yeats?
A right wing reactionary?
More leftiness cant.
So it goes.
You “love Yeats?”
He was a prophet, not some reactionary politician.
A prophet!!!
Bet on it.
Prophecy deals with the future; reaction deals with the past.
He pinned the future in which we are now living.
Pinned it!!!
AG
“…the worst are full of passionate intensity…”.
There is no tension.
Regardless of who her opponent was, Hillary was always going to tell the left to go fuck itself the second she no longer needed them to clinch the nomination – just like her #1 Fan did before her. (Or if you need it put less bluntly: let’s say that she will soon rediscover her early enthusiasm for the Trans-Pacific Partnership – just as Obama eventually decided that immunity for telecom connivance in Bush-era domestic spying was actually a swell idea.) But thanks to Trump’s supreme odiousness, she can do so with relish – secure in the knowledge that even die-hard Sanders supporters will consider her the lesser evil.
If she is so anxious to tell the left to go fuck themselves, one wonders why her first speech after becoming the presumptive nominee was before Planned Parenthood. Where she proceeded to make it clear how she felt about abortion rights. And yes, unlike how democrats for years have run from the word, she used the word ‘abortion’ many times.
Aggressive foreign policy is the worry with Clnton, not domestic policy, where her campaign web site and her public stances make it clear she is left.
She does not need to do much to woo moderate republicans. They will come around in enough numbers.
.
Both she and Trump want to bomb Syria moar over Orlando, no?
And that has nothing to do with what nalbar wrote, right?
There’s no there here; every hack Democratic consultant since 1974 has been advising their candidates to move left for the primary, right for the general. It’s not so much conventional wisdom as iron-clad rule. At the presidential level it would be astonishing if this didn’t happen. The only difference this year is the scale of the opportunity with disaffected centrists and Republicans, but Hillary Clinton would pirouette regardless of her opponent.
The thing is, Clinton can pivot right a lot more convincingly than Trump can start to appear more “presidential.” Hillary has her entire hawkish, bank-fellating career to draw upon. Trump needs a chiropractor and a masseuse to work on the atrophied muscles he injures every time he even attempts to act sober or gracious.
Tuesday night, via Reuters:
Clinton, who secured enough delegates to clinch the nomination last week, met with Sanders in a downtown Washington hotel as the sometimes bitter primary combatants searched for common ground ahead of the Nov. 8 election against presumptive Republican nominee Donald Trump.
Sanders has resisted pressure to bow out and endorse Clinton in a show of party unity, choosing to continue his campaign as leverage to win concessions from Clinton on his policy agenda and reforms to the Democratic Party nominating process.
Both camps described the meeting as “positive” and said the two noted their shared commitment to stopping Trump and pursuing issues such as raising the minimum wage, eliminating undisclosed money in politics, making college affordable and making healthcare coverage more accessible.
Sanders spokesman Michael Briggs said the meeting was “a positive discussion about how best to bring more people into the political process and about the dangerous threat that Donald Trump poses to our nation.”
Won’t be surprising to see more Rep embrace Clinton’s moderation
Hackers Just Released What Appears To Be The DNC’s Opposition Research On Donald Trump. Read The Full Document.
She should do whatever makes it most likely for House to flip.
That means helping what is called blue dogs get elected.
.
Some, sure. But is that actually the case all that often? Blue Dog types don’t really do any better than conventional Democrats even in moderately conservative districts. I’d be curious about the actual political inclination of Democratic candidates in the districts that would flip in a wave election.
They don’t last long either, these days.
need i say more?! lol!
It is damn near impossible at first glance to know what to make of the state polling (see the PPP polls from Florida, PA and Ohio)
But let’s ignore Markos, who is basically clueless in how to read a poll.
Here are the numbers among likely voters:
Clinton: 45.8
Trump: 36.9
Neither:12.7
Gary Johnson: .3%
Feingold: 50.6%
Johnson: 41.5
Neither: 2%
Libertarian : .4%
Four things to note here:
1. Note the gap in the neither percentage. There is substantial unhappiness in the choice. Now Marquette, which is just about the best pollster there is, included neither in their polling, but that isn’t on the ballot.
The cross tabs in the neither category is VERY telling:
GOP: 12.1
Dem 5
Independents: 20.4
So Clinton has consolidated the Democratic vote.
But the comparison with Sanders is revealing.
Here are the toplines for Sanders v. Trump:
Sanders 57
Trump 33
Neither 6.7
Much of the gap between Sanders and Clinton against Trump is among independents, who say they will vote for neither candidate in Clinton V. Trump, but who will vote for Sanders.
In the end I think that about 75% of the people who say they will vote for Sanders but not Clinton will, in the end, vote for Clinton.
Because I believe this, I believe Clinton is likely to win by 10+, and perhaps by as much as 15 points.
2. Note the libertarian vote. Right now the last 5 national numbers for Gary Johnson are 11,9,6,12 and 11.
Nobody knows who Johnson is: if this poll is right Johnson’s numbers are essentially a proxy for neither candidate. In this sense what Marquette has found is very revealing.
It must be said a very good pollster, PPP, took 3 polls of battle ground states and found very different results.
I think you’re reading too much into the undecided/neither category.
If you look at the 2012 general election polling (national polls only, for simplicity), the rough average of undecided/neither voters in June polling was about 6, with some polls reporting “undecided” voters as high as 15%. By November, the average was around 3.
I should note that I hope you’re right (!)
” Can Clinton solidify her left flank at the same time that she reassures the middle that she’s the proper steward for our country right now?”
No; she can’t. And she better not try. But she will. Better question: why is she only 6 points ahead of Trump nationally right now?
Conservative writer bashes Trump supporters on Twitter
June 16, 2106
Conservative writer Rick Wilson absolutely despises Donald Trump, and he’s deeply worried that the mogul’s dominance will cause incalculable long-term damage to the party’s reputation. Trump has taken a dive in his approval rating recently, and though the Orlando Shooting might shake things up going forward, Wilson went on a Twitter tirade last night about its proof the GOP will have a price to pay after the election is over.
Trump has found himself in controversy so many times over the course of his campaign, and the GOP leadership has constantly found itself offering half-hearted condemnation while allowing him to become their 2016 nominee. By the looks of last night, Wilson isn’t having it anymore.
I won’t say much more about this since it’s better to just read Wilson’s tweets, but take note of how “Cheeto Jesus,” “unspinnable ratfuck,” and “crypto-fascist,” are among the nicer things he says:
Some more water is wet news.
……………………
Few if any minority senior execs in Trump’s empire
Jun. 16, 2016 3:36 PM EDT
WASHINGTON (AP) — There are few, if any, black executives in the upper ranks of the Trump Organization, a review by The Associated Press has found. Other minorities are also scarce at that level though Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump has employed scores of executives.
Former executives say they cannot recall a single black vice president-level executive at Trump’s headquarters during their combined tenures at the Trump Organization LLC, which ranged from 1980 to late in the past decade. Reviews of social media postings by Trump and his family and Trump’s acknowledgements thanking executives in his books also fail to identify any senior black employees past or present.
Asked about the lack of African-American vice presidents in an interview last month, Trump assured the AP that he had hired minorities as senior executives and said his staff could readily provide specific details.
“I am the least discriminatory person in the world,” Trump said. “I have people that do the hiring, if you want to speak to them.”
The rotten apple didn’t fall far from the rotten tree,
Woody Guthrie, `Old Man Trump’ and a real estate empire’s racist foundations
Daddy trump was a bigot, baby trump is a racist.
The Hill @thehill 40m40 minutes ago
Poll: 94% of black Americans disapprove of Trump
From the article;
————————-
my prediction is we’re going to get a higher percentage of the Hispanics and black vote than we have gotten since 2004,” RNC Chairman Reince Priebus said in an interview with Bloomberg Businessweek in May.
“And we’re going to do it because we’ve done a better job at the RNC, and we’re also going to have a nominee who is going to pivot in tone and tenor. He understands that.”
—————————
So he believes if Trump simply ‘pivots’ and starts talking platitudes that POC will forget all previous comments and ‘come around’.
God, these people are idiots.
.