Rep. Nita Lowey of New York was the congresswoman who introduced the so-called “no-fly, no-buy” amendment that was at the heart of yesterday and last night’s disruptions in the House of Representatives. She described it as being identical to the language that Sen. Diane Feinstein of California had introduced the week prior.
It gives the attorney general the authority to block the sale of firearms to known or suspected terrorists, if the attorney general has a reasonable belief that the firearm would be used in connection with terrorism. It also requires the Attorney General to establish procedures to ensure that the DOJ is promptly notified if an individual who has been investigated for terrorism at any point in the past five years attempts to purchase a firearm.
Lowey had some talking points that she presented in support of her legislation. She pointed out that under federal law there are nine categories of people who are presently restricted in their ability to purchase firearms, including “convicted felons, domestic abusers, and the seriously mentally ill,” but that people suspected of having ties to terrorist organizations are not on the list.
Now, civil libertarians have expressed a number of concerns about this legislation. One major problem they have is with the way the government creates its Watch List for terrorists. Many people have been citing a July 2014 Intercept piece by Jeremy Scahill and Ryan Devereaux entitled THE SECRET GOVERNMENT RULEBOOK FOR LABELING YOU A TERRORIST and a follow-up piece they published in August 2004 named WATCH COMMANDER: Barack Obama’s Secret Terrorist-Tracking System, by the Numbers. That piece relies on leaked and court-divulged government documents that reveal that the Watch List has grown in size tremendously in recent years to somewhere between 680,000 and 1.5 million individuals.
And over a quarter million people are on this Watch List who have “no recognized terrorist group affiliation.”
So, for starters, there’s a concern that this dragnet is a very imprecise and blunt instrument. Then there’s the concern that it’s a secret list, which means that you cannot find out if you’re on it and there’s not much you can reasonably do to get off of it. Another concern is that it has a disparate impact on certain groups of Americans.
The top five U.S. cities represented on the main watchlist for “known or suspected terrorists” are New York; Dearborn, Mich.; Houston; San Diego; and Chicago. At 96,000 residents, Dearborn is much smaller than the other cities in the top five, suggesting that its significant Muslim population—40 percent of its population is of Arab descent, according to the U.S. Census Bureau—has been disproportionately targeted for watchlisting. Residents and civil liberties advocates havefrequently argued the Muslim, Arab and Sikh communities in and around Dearborn are unfairly targeted by invasive law enforcement probes, unlawful profiling, and racism.
To sum up, there’s legitimate worry that the list itself is not very good, that it denies people due process, and that it has a disparate impact when it is used to deny people rights, like the right to board an airplane or (as now proposed) to purchase a firearm. These are some of the reasons why the ACLU opposes the Feinstein/Lowey legislation. Republican opponents raise some of the same issues.
The question, then, is whether the sit-in the Democrats waged yesterday and the fuss they made in the Senate before that are in the service of bad legislation that would ratify a badly flawed system that is already being misused for the no-fly system? Would it grant even more power to the FBI which they could then expand or misuse?
If you restrict yourself to seeing this kerfuffle as about the merits of this proposed legislation, then the answer to those questions is surely ‘yes.’
But this is not a fully developed appreciation of what is going on.
To start with, the Democrats are responding to yet another massacre in which dozens of people were killed or injured in mere minutes by the use of a power semiautomatic rifle. In the 2012 Sandy Hook massacre, 26 people were gunned down in approximately five minutes. In the 2012 Aurora massacre, seventy people were shot. In Aurora, the police arrived within 90 seconds of receiving a call. In Sandy Hook, the first police car was there four minutes after they were notified of a shooting situation. Congress has had no answer for how we might prevent or reduce the frequency and lethality of these types of attacks.
What the Democrats are trying to do is break grip the National Rifle Association has on Congress. The heart of that effort has been to leverage overwhelming public support for expanded background checks, but that legislation has gone nowhere. The effort to impose a “no-fly, no-buy” provision will likewise go nowhere in this Republican-controlled Congress, but it also enjoys overwhelming public support. By trying to force votes on these two issues, the Democrats are highlighting the Republicans’ refusal to address the problem of the ready availability of extraordinarily lethal firearms. Whether the Republicans cast votes or refuse to allow them (as they have done by recessing until after July 4th), this puts them badly on the wrong side of public opinion and heightens their vulnerability to electoral defeat.
It’s not a cynical ploy to gain power. It’s a recognition that all avenues are blocked except getting more power. So, the way this gambit should be judged is on whether it works politically, and not so much on whether the Watch List is a flawed mechanism for restricting the rights of anyone for any purpose.
In my opinion, if nothing happens, the Watch List will continue to have flaws and it will continue to expand. But, if the Watch List were to actually be used to restrict gun ownership, the Republicans would suddenly care about those flaws and want to do something to make sure that folks have due process, the right to appeal, and that conservatives aren’t disproportionately impacted. Conservatives tend not to have empathy until they’re personally impacted. When Arlen Specter got sick, he became a champion of the National Institute of Health, and when Rob Portman discovered he had a gay son, he suddenly saw the light on gay marriage. If Republicans think the Watch List only inconveniences Muslims from Dearborn, Michigan, they’ll never have any interest in fixing its flaws. But if it impacts one of their assault-rifle loving constituents who can’t figure out how to get taken off this list? That will interest them.
Likewise, if the Democrats ever had the power to enact meaningful restrictions on semiautomatic rifles, they probably wouldn’t choose this route. And, if they did, they’d listen very carefully to the concerns raised by the ACLU. In other words, neither side cares too much about the Watch List today, but they’d both care a lot about it if it were actually going to be used to restrict gun ownership.
Maybe the more cynical will totally reject my prediction here. It’s hard to argue with diehard cynics. What I will concede is that there are legitimate concerns with the way the Democrats are touting the efficacy of a badly flawed system. If you’ve been trying to get people organized to rein in the government’s Watch List program, this has to be pretty discouraging. It’s just, as I’ve said, that I think this could ironically give their efforts a major boost.
There are a lot of other people, though, who haven’t been concerning themselves with the Watch List. They’ve been concerned with high-casualty shooting sprees (and gun violence in general). And they’ve had enough of inaction. Listen to John Lewis:
That is what this is actually about. The time for patience is long gone. We must find a way from no way. It is time to dramatize the need for action. There comes a time when you have to make a little noise. The time for silence is over.
So, what we’ve just witnessed is an act of determined and strategic organizing. It is about making the impossible possible. It’s about breaking the grip of the NRA on our Congress and getting some movement on an issue that the American people want to see addressed.
Maybe it works, maybe it doesn’t. But to nitpick the effort is to miss the point and to dismiss the urgency.
Thank you.
It is possible to distinguish a purely political argument (ie the sit-in) from a substantive policy argument (the watch list).
In this sense I don’t have a problem with what Lewis is doing.
But if asked what was more dangerous, guns or the erosion of civil rights created by the watch list, the answer is a really easy one.
Civil rights concerns are always drowned out in the need to respond to events. Pointing that out is NOT nitpicking.
In this instance no legislation is going to happen anyway.
“Civil rights concerns are always drowned out in the need to respond to events.”
And they are exceedingly hard to claw back.
Yes. And wouldn’t be surprised if thinks tanks affiliated either major political party aren’t currently engaged in producing “model legislation” chipping away at our rights for politicians to introduce at an opportune time. Just like that odious “Patriot Act.”
Like McCain had that warrantless national security letter legislation in his back pocket, awaiting an opportunity to stampede the herd.
Except this bill does nothing to worsen any problems with the watch list. Actually, it reduces the watch list problems because it adds a provision to challenge it.
Oppose this bill if you like the watch list, because you’re just helping the watchlist to stay and grow.
Exactly this.
The Watch List exists and most Americans give zero fucks about it.
Tie owning a gun and the Second Amendment to it, and watch as people start clutching their pearls about the Watch List they never cared about before.
That eleventy-dimensional chess solution!
You think if the Watch List contains a provision to disallow gun ownership, the Republicans won’t suddenly develop more interest in it? In making sure that none of their constituents’ names are there unjustifiably, and that there’s a way to get a mistaken name removed?
Imaging the Republicans not caring about gun owners strikes me as much less likely than eleventy-dimensional chess. This is quite simple, in theory. It’s not a triple bankshot. It’s getting the five ball in the corner pocket.
No – because the watch list targets minorities. It isn’t targeting white people.
Really that argument is asinine.
It targets minorities, but it includes many, many, many whites.
It’s also a ‘camel’s nose inside the tent.’
no, just simple human nature
Incorrect.
The Democratic party doesn’t have to play chess to beat Republicans. It simply needs to stand up for what it believes in (gun regulations and laws) and not cower in fear that big bad Republicans and the NRA are gonna get ’em.
If you want to call that eleventy dimensional chess, go for it. It’s clear that your inherent disgust with the Democratic party is your top priority, so be sure to beat the shit out of the only political party that even pretends to give a fuck about you and yours whenever possible.
That’ll show ’em real good! Do that long enough, and something something mass social uprising, something something social democracy utopia!
Look at all the 2nd Amendment absolutists we have all of a sudden. Anything to fuck the
Judean Peoples FrontDemocrats.The PurityBrigadeTM marches to its own tune, damn observable, objective reality.
That clapping for Tinkerbell is getting thinner and thinner, but by all means….
The only true way to bring about progressive change is to talk mad shit on internet comment boards about the Democratic party.
If only every Democratic voter stayed home this November, we’d have a progressive utopia in no time!
Because something something mass social uprising, something something Social Democratic Utopia!
Clapping for Tinkerbell, indeed.
Check out the popularity of the govt.
Progressives said mean things in every corner of the country, I guess. The press has certainly done its job of cheerleading…
It had nothing to do with lower paychecks, higher utilities, and schools being sold off. Oh, no.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/1600/congress-public.aspx
98% of incumbents will remain in office. So what?
But it’s not just about tying the Republicans in knots. There’s actually a provision to allow a legal challenge to a watch list placement in the Collins bill text they’re calling for a vote on. There will be indirect effects weakening the watch list if it were to pass, but it directly improves civil liberties as well.
The problem with this, agree or disagree about guns, is that it ties the practice of one’s Constitutional Rights by whole classes of citizens to the approval of the “Security State”. The precedent is so egregious as to almost make it a red line in considering anyone for higher office.
Because just as night follows day, a future GOP Admin will take it to block actions or activities it doesn’t like or to score political points after some future crisis.
Before any legislation is considered, we have to look at the Nation as a whole and determine if there is an epidemic of gun violence and mass shootings. Scientific studies say no. And legislating based on emotion has always led to disaster.
R
This comment is just so lost it is hard to describe.
This extends the application of the watch list to another right.
We don’t do a very good job teaching people to understand Due Process in this country, as this comment demonstrates.
What right? Buying a gun is not a constitutional right, regardless of that opinion authored by a recently deceased Supreme Court Justice which explicitly and openly ignored the text of the 2nd amendment.
Traveling on a plane is much closer to a right, because it’s freedom of association.
Then you think there is no right to privacy and legal abortion as decided in Row v Wade, that separate and equal is OK, that Affordable Health Care taxation is not legal…etc…
Its easy to say there is NO 2nd Am rights, even though the English Language might disagree, just because you don’t like it. Many of the GOP have been told to “Get over it” after decisions they don’t like. Right now, it is Constitutional law. One has to live in the real world, not fantasy, and deal with it. Outright bans of all firearms are illegal. Banning certain classes of guns are possible, though that might be problematic as well.
What are your goals and are they achievable in the current legal atmosphere?
R
I was hoping for a opportunity to move my “Kill the Bill” merch that’s been taking up valuable space in my garage since early 2010.
The TL;DR version:
“What the Democrats are trying to do is break grip the National Rifle Association has on Congress.”
There’s a typo in there….
I’m sure you meant to type “The permagov is doing a solid for the Deep State.”
In 2013 there were 11,208 gun homicides according to the CDC. There were about 12 billion bullets sold that same year (give or take). So here’s a simple idea. Pay the estate of every murdered individual $1,000,000 (2016 dollars, indexed for inflation). That’s $12 billion rounded up (to cover administrative costs). Then apply a federal excise tax on every bullet sold. Accounting for reduced bullet demand (with the tax), that would be something around $1.50 per bullet.
The bullet tax would fund the gun homicide trust fund. The money would flow in and then flow out. If (when) the gun industry figures out ways to reduce gun homicides, the next year the bullet tax would automatically fall.
As a variation, the bullet tax would be separately determined based on portions of the risk pool (gun homicides) based on bullet type and bullet manufacturer. If you manufacture a bullet that is more popular than others to murder people, then that bullet gets slapped with a higher tax to support its share of payouts. If you manufacture a less murderous bullet, your bullet gets a lower tax.
As yet another variation, a $100,000 payout (2016 dollars) could be added to serious gun injury victims (when the injury is caused by somebody else). Gun suicides and self-inflicted wounds would be ineligible for claims, for obvious reasons.
It’s mind boggling to me that we have mandatory automobile insurance but not mandatory gun and/or bullet insurance. The above is one straightforward, minimally bureaucratic way to institute insurance.
One of the three or four sane Republicans still out there has a blog that I peruse to imagine how awesome the world would be if the blog author’s version of US conservatism was the standard US conservatism viewpoint.
Anyway, he has a post that discusses gun control through insurance that you may be interested in reading. Along with his blog as a whole.
https:/goplifer.com/2015/08/27/gun-control-is-easy
Gun control/regulation through insurance is very smart politics, imo. AND perfectly doable through state leges.
Wendi Muse:
Oh but do you think the Bundys did not make the terror watch list? How about all those Nazi and white supremist groups the GOP courts for votes. How do you think it would go down if David Duke was denied the ability to buy a gun? The GOP none action has more to do with holding their base of white males together than any regard for civil liberties/due process.
As I said in another comment, an offer from Democrats to reduce/restrict/limit civil liberties/due process is like manna to Republicans.
Ed Meese pushed for this — perhaps it should be referred to as the J Edgar Hoover restoration act — because COINTELPRO was so cool.
Says you.
https:/theintercept.com/2016/06/21/democrats-war-on-due-process-and-terrorist-fear-mongering-long-p
re-dates-orlando
Mass shootings suck. Incipient fascism sucks worse.
“Incipient fascism sucks worse.”
Yes, keeping people on the terror watchlist from buying guns is incipient fascism. In related news, Bernie Sanders has come out as an incipient fascist: http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/284509-sanders-joins-house-sit-in
the unaccountable watchlist is a shitty policy, expanding it is worse. Taking away people’s rights on suspicion should not be acceptable.
So let’s make the watchlist accountable and responsive to judicial review. We can use this discussion to do that. We might also force a tough vote on the House. No great Bill will pass out of this Congress; we’ll need to use this issue to elect a better Congress to get what you want. Meanwhile, people are being slaughtered and voters want action.
No good things will happen if we cynically walk away in disgust.
I counter-suggest that no good things ever happen when we allow panic to trample civil liberties. (See “PATRIOT Act”.)
Partisans of either party don’t learn lessons well enough to avoid repeating the errors in real time. Mostly because they substitute partisanship for higher principles.
Indeed. Authoritarians get authoritative with anyone asking inconvenient questions.
I’m never not going to be surprised at how quickly people are willing to jettison our civil liberties in favor of fake security and/or using it to gain a political advantage in the short run.
We’ve got a more orderly process going on right now. We’re not in the fortnight after 9/11. There’s an opportunity to have a better result here.
You know what won’t remain acceptable? No Congressional response to mass slaughters with killing machines. Nothing slams home to the public the utter and immoral domination the NRA maintains over Congressional Republicans more acutely than their unwillingness to respond to a man calling out his pledge of allegiance to ISIS while mowing down Americans with a semi-automatic.
Stay in the discussion, avoid preposterous rhetoric, and you’ll be listened to. Throw your bombs, walk away, and get ignored by people who you need to influence.
YOU DO NOT COMPROMISE ON THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE OF DUE PROCESS.
The list should not be used to restrict a right, ever.
Because when you create the precedent it will be extended to other areas.
John Lewis, Alan Grayson, Barbara Lee: all supporters of “incipient fascism”, in your formulation.
This is enormously unpersuasive. So are other claims being lodged here.
Cynicism and unwillingness to effectively respond to the will of the voters and the acts required to govern are destructive to rational discussion. If you’re unhappy with Congress’s concerns about the Second and Fourth Amendments, then start trying to convince voters of your views. Right now, 80% to 90% of voters don’t agree with you. That is the cause of your problems with Congress.
Let me call upon tbogg’s fine response to this sort of thing:
https:/shadowproof.com/2008/02/25/your-mumia-sweatshirt-wont-get-you-into-heaven-anymore
A comment left over at digg regarding Ralph Nader:
“The Democrats really hate Nader because he points out the fact that they are asking those of us on the left to vote for them but they aren’t doing anything for us. Did they end funding for the Republican’s crime spree in Iraq? No. Have they moved for UHC? No. Have they tried to stop corporate crimes? No. Have they tried to reform the tax code to be progressive? No. Have they tried to protect homeowners from predatory lenders? No. Have they defended our constitutional rights? No. Take back the FDA from the corporations? No. The FCC? No.
The Democrats dont deserve my vote. They aren’t helping the left, why should the left help them?”
Let me see if I can explain it this way:
Every year in Happy Gumdrop Fairy-Tale Land all of the sprites and elves and woodland creatures gather together to pick the Rainbow Sunshine Queen. Everyone is there: the Lollipop Guild, the Star-Twinkle Toddlers, the Sparkly Unicorns, the Cookie Baking Apple-cheeked Grandmothers, the Fluffy Bunny Bund, the Rumbly-Tumbly Pupperoos, the Snowflake Princesses, the Baby Duckies All-In-A-Row, the Laughing Babies, and the Dykes on Bikes. They have a big picnic with cupcakes and gumdrops and pudding pops, stopping only to cast their votes by throwing Magic Wishing Rocks into the Well of Laughter, Comity, and Good Intentions. Afterward they spend the rest of the night dancing and singing and waving glow sticks until dawn when they tumble sleepy-eyed into beds made of the purest and whitest goose down where they dream of angels and clouds of spun sugar.
You don’t live there.
Grow the fuck up.
I’m trying to remember if this pony/unicorn rhetorical device ever delivered the sting that its devoted exponents seem to attribute to it. But it was so many dozens of uses ago that I no longer recall.
tbogg’s piece is popular for a reason. It hits home for lots of people.
If it’s been presented to you dozens of times, you may find it worth considering a change in your rhetorical style and worldview.
Or you may continue to accuse Bernie Sanders of being an incipient fascist. Your call.
I suspect we disagree on the reason for its popularity.
It’s second-rate recycled snark that makes people feel superior and Serious. It’s bullshit.
I think this sit-in is a very good thing, but ‘Ha-ha, you’re living in Gummy Bear Land!’ barely rises to the level of masturbation. There are actual arguments to be made. I think the people who disagree with me are wrong (obviously!) but they’re not stupid or silly.
If I want argument-by-weak-snark I’ll read Davis X.
Who’s acting superior and Serious here again?
We’re offering to discuss the political strategy and the policy here. When we get argument by maximum demagoguery and insulting language, some of us seek snark to deal with our bewilderment that our insulters fail to understand that this is not the way to gain enough converts for you to win the day.
People unhappy with the status quos here need to convert voters. Congress is not the only problem, or even the main problem.
Well, telling people to grow up and live in the real world is superior and serious.
I agree with you. I think is a very good thing; it’s a powerful example of political theatre done right. And in the service of background checks (great thing!), research on gun fatalities (great thing!) and denying guns to people on the No Fly List (don’t give a shit). I couldn’t be happier.
So I think people who are worried about this are wrong.
However. Where I don’t give a shit about the No Fly List thing, they see the government expanding the arbitrary and unaccountable power to withhold rights from one group of people (disproportionately a targeted minority), rights that other Americans, like it not, will still retain. They’re running around with their hair on fire because HOLY SHIT THAT’S BAD! It’s bad enough that they (for good reason) dismiss my talk of political strategy as a shortsighted deal with the devil.
I still think they’re wrong. But treating the concern as unfounded or insulting … I don’t know. Doesn’t sit well.
I not only treated their concerns about the 4th Amendment respectfully, I stated that I shared some of their concerns after taking the time to actually find out more about the Feinstein Bill.
That meant nothing to some commenters. They used over-the-top language to attack everyone involved, and insulted those of us who supported the sit-in.
There was no response to my pointing out that the Feinstein Bill had drawn out an interest from Congressmembers to provide stronger due process protections. I inferred, but should specifically add, that the Feinstein Bill would establish a form of due process for people on the no-fly list for the first time. These are good things.
“Incipient fascism”, “POS Bill,” and more was the response. This was extraordinarily disrespectful and, in my view, inappropriate. At some point, satire was needed to point out the absurdity of the attacks, and to provide an alternative to online shouting.
Seems to me that those ever ready to slam rational and practical lefties withe the “unicorn” meme are now touting this POS bill and sit-in as the magic fairy dust that will lead to the dismantling of gun rights and any loss of due process rights can be restored once the guns are gun. Lots of loose screws in that argument.
Senator Sanders, Betrayer of the People, touter of POS bills!
Perhaps your assessments of what is going on are flawed.
Or perhaps is paying attention to POLICY, not personality?
Is that a conception you can credit, I wonder?
In the world you and other cynics are providing here, Policy and discussions of Policy sit in a Good or Evil column. People who take positions on Policies can be sorted out by whether they support Good or Evil Policies. Identifications must be made, using incendiary, personal language to identify who and what is on the right and wrong sides of that line.
I’ve been trying, very patiently, to discuss the policies and the political strategies in a more reasonable, less heat-filled way. I’d love to reduce the discussion of personalities from the discussion. Yet, we know where Barbara Lee has stood on civil liberty and use of force issues. We know where Bernie Sanders has stood. They can act as helpful barometers in response to these issues.
I’ve mentioned that, based on the initial description provided, I don’t think Feinstein’s Bill meets my standard for civil liberty protections.
I still think the effort here by Congressional Democrats is worthwhile.
Unfortunately, we have many here associating anyone who supports the Congressional sit-in with fascism and other similarly incendiary definitions.
Rather hard to leave personalities out of the response to this sort of thing. I hope that can be understood.
At this point I’m so desparate to redtrict guns in any way possible I dont even fucking care how its done.
Then again, I am likely biased because I’d like to repeal the 2nd amendment entirely and just ban firearms. (Especially in favor of swords!)
Beware desperate political expediency. That’s how citizens end up with laws that do little to nothing wrt to advertised problem but contain poison pills that depreciate the quality of life for many or even most.
Those that would most happily jettison the 2nd Amendment and have also looked at these proposals appreciate it’s a really bad deal.
At this point I think we need security theater victories on gun control to even take a step towards enacting actually useful gun control policies.
Forget it Jake — war and guns are more American than apple pie because the former produces huge profits.
At the very least, reverse Heller and McDonald. This would essentially mean that the SCOTUS would be acting like a 9-member legislative body, changing it’s mind with shifting political breezes. This would not be a good thing in general, but that didn’t seem to keep Scalia et al. awake nights.
Well, nothing seems to keep Scalia awake now.
LOL. Well, if ya hear different, I got some stakes and a mallet.
I laughed- thanks!
Kristen Brietweiser, June 22, 2016
The Long-Hidden Saudi 9/11 Connection
Good article and presents information that will be new even to those reasonably well informed about the issue. btw, the FBI had all the legal tools required to shut down at least one component of the 9/11 attacks, but was either easily subverted or lacks adequate core competence for this sort of work (as compared with its skill at sting operations).
There you go again, giving me hope that I’ll see Bush in the dock some day.
Americans will be lucky if one day far in the future, all the crap (including illegal acts) perpetrated by all levels of US governments is made public. It’s fairly well established that a President that takes the country to war based on a lie gets immunity once Congress ratifies the decision in one form or another.
http://gawker.com/the-democrats-are-boldly-fighting-for-a-bad-stupid-bil-1782449026
Let’s put aside the fact that this is energizing the Democrats, is terrific optics, and has a chance to weaken the NRA’s grip on Congress:
Anyone who wants the no-fly list fixed should support this bill. The only way Republicans will ever cooperate on fixing the list is if it causes some true-blue redneck to be denied a gun purchase. Reform it for gun purchases and you reformed it for airline travel.
Have to agree with others posting here. Use of a secretly sourced, compiled, and maintained “watch list” to control constitutional rights is a big mistake. It can be argued that the case was decided wrong, but the Supreme Court case DC v Heller is quite clear; firearm ownership as a Constitutional right was affirmed.
Proposed legislation does not say; limit rifle purchase, handgun purchase, shotgun purchase…but any firearm purchase.
Now if this proceeds, and passes court challenge, then the precedent is set for other Constitutional rights to be curtailed based on information from the “Security State”. And not on a case by case basis as with the FISA court or National Security Letters, but wholesale classes of citizens.
Should Muslims be allowed to have blogs or post to Facebook/Instagram/twitter? Should Radical Conservative Christians? Should child bearing aged women in certain states be put on a list and have access to abortions denied?
Why not? I can certainly see some Republican Admin trying stuff like that. And with this precedent, it would probably go through.
The last time we had a cry of “Do Something!” was a rush for the “Patriot Fu***in Act” and the Iraq war. We are still dealing with the unintended consequences from those mistakes.
R
Would be very interesting (though doubtful it would ever happen) to see the breakdown between the “official” “known” and “suspected” categories, if indeed such a distinction is ever actually, officially made, even secretly. Would not surprise me to learn that no such determination is ever actually made, i.e., that “known” is in there pretty much just for show. If such a categorization ever does occur, it would surprise me very much to learn that “known” comprises more than a minuscule proportion of the list(s).
Which is, of course, precisely where the Constitutional/human rights/civil liberties concerns are most crucial.
Also too,
Ya think? Are you always this given to understatement?
For the rest, I agree. I followed, but didn’t enter the previous thread on this. Partly because there seemed to be uncertainty/confusion about the details of just what bill prompted the protest. Partly because I could see merit to both arguments (basically, bad bill on the merits, vs. good symbolism/activism/political theater on a bill that was never passing regardless, but highlighted the issue and the distinction between “sides”).
I agree with this. The Republicans say and do crazy stuff all the time, endorsing legislation with no hope of passing. We point and laugh/cry at each individual instance, and then we sit and whine about how the Overton window has shifted to the right over time. That the bills in question here are problematic is beside the point. If gun control can re-emerge as an important plank in the Democratic platform, and more Democrats are elected, then there will be more and better gun control measures in the future. The sit-in is a small step towards achieving that reality.
As the legislation’s sponsor pointed out, there are already classes of people barred from buying firearms, including “convicted felons, domestic abusers, and the seriously mentally ill.” But…but…but, say the legislation’s opponents–they do say this, right?–surely barring these people from buying guns is just wrong! I mean, any individual convicted felon or domestic abuser might come to Jesus and change his ways, so why should he be barred from buying guns? THIS IS DENIAL OF DUE PROCESS! It’s the camel’s nose under the tent!
“So, what we’ve just witnessed is an act of determined and strategic organizing. It is about making the impossible possible. It’s about breaking the grip of the NRA on our Congress and getting some movement on an issue that the American people want to see addressed.”–Booman
Yes. Damn straight.
When I read the comments, I’m once again reminded of all those clever Jewish lawyers at the ACLU patting themselves on the back for “upholding principle” every time they go to bat for Nazis wanting to march through a town full of Holocaust survivors (Skokie, Illinois) or for assorted other neo-fascists, all of whom would, if it were in their power, throw those clever Jewish lawyers into concentration camps.
There’s a difference between “upholding principle” and self-destructive, pig-headed behavior.
Do you even understand due process? Your examples suggest you don’t. It is a statutory penalty for CONVICTION on those charges, fgs. Like loss of voting privilege for felons.
I may be misusing the term technically. My point is that whole classes of individuals are summarily deprived of the right to buy guns now. Any individual in those classes could turn around and become a positive member of society, but still be denied the right to buy a gun. They’re being treated as ciphers, members of a class, not as individuals. They’re not receiving “due process” in the sense of an individual determination of whether they are now OK to have a gun.
Which others? The under age contingent?
Felons. No matter how old the conviction, how long ago, it’s very difficult to regain the right to lawfully buy a gun.
http://thelawdictionary.org/article/how-can-a-convicted-felon-receive-firearm-rights/
They are NEVER denied due process. Their constitutional rights are curtailed forever as an outcome of their conviction.
I would presume a pardon would restore ALL rights, no? Voting, gun ownership, run for office, etc…
Yep….According to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, “Felons whose convictions have been set-aside or expunged, or for which the person has been pardoned or has had civil rights restored” are not considered “convicted” and thus they would not be prohibited from owning a gun.(Nov 17, 2014)
And for the record, while I want felons and those currently imprisoned to never be denied their voting rights, they haven’t been denied due process.
If this isn’t about policy, and it’s about the theater only, then why do the goalposts keep moving with supporters of said theater defending the shit policy?
Patting themselves in the back, as they should. Marching Nazis, disgusting though they are, have no actual power to do anything beyond disgusting decent people. E.g., to get federal law enacted. The ACLU’s position on that is exactly right.
Likewise, nobody thinks the bill apparently in question goes anywhere. Nobody I’ve seen comment supports it as proposed. The determination of some commenters to pretend this distinction either doesn’t exist or is insignificant has become pretty amazing to me.
Not sure I understand your point. Gaining support for bills that contain nasty bits that a generic Democrat wouldn’t support is quite common and we live with such deeply flawed and destructive legislation. And such bills that fail to succeed the first time around have a zombie life if not pierced through the heart the first time.
It’s not about “[g]aining support for bills that contain nasty bits that a generic Democrat wouldn’t support” (and so also not about any “zombie life” they might exhibit; though ymmv, and probably will unless I miss my guess).
For the rest, see my reply to booman, this thread.
(Then feel free to withdraw your uprate if you like! No worries, won’t be offended, nor will it alter my position, taken only after pretty extensive reading, thought, and weighing of pros and cons.)
Doesn’t add any clarity to what I highlighted in your comment.
Not going to change the rating because I based that on the rest of your comment that merited a four.
Indeed, expect to see McCain’s national security letter free pass amendment festooning every “must pass” piece of legislation upcoming.
Those people whom the ACLU was lawyering for would, if given power, turn right around and put those lawyers in concentration camps. If that is adherence to principle, then I am more than flabbergasted. Not sure what else to say in response. Different democracies draw the line differently when it comes to freedom of expression. The US’ approach is not the only one. You would find in, say, the UK or France laws that you’d consider violations of free speech principles. This isn’t a black and white issue.
to the quintessential example of “adhering to principle”, especially in the present situation, i.e., when the near-universal response to those Nazis is revulsion (including among us who nevertheless defend their right to be thus disgusting), and their hope of enacting any agenda is essentially zero. But not only then.
Or deja vu. Those of us that are of a certain age have heard it all before and regardless of all the efforts at gun control since the 1960s, the number of guns, on a per capita basis) have mushroomed.
Attempting any conversation here with those supporting the current Democratic actions on The Hill is like those real time discussions I attempted to have with people that supported telecom deregulation, Gramm-Leach-Bliley, IWR, and bombing Libya. (Save my breath wrt the Patriot Act and 2001 AUMF because those around me were completely nutso at the time.)
You are on point, BooMan.
thank you.
Thank you, Boo! Thank heavens somebody on the progressive side understands how politics actually works, FFS.
Thank goodness Rushbo has maintained his leftist purity: https://mediamatters.org/video/2016/06/23/rush-limbaugh-ironic-john-lewis-applauded-sit-denyin
g-civil-rights/211147
Meanwhile, freedom-destroying right-winger Bernie Sanders supports the sit-in: http://www.bustle.com/articles/168547-bernie-sanders-joined-the-house-sit-in-got-a-standing-ovation
After all, nothing says “I support civil liberties” like “megadittos, Rush!!!”
Not to be pedantic, but I see this was published on WaMo as well so I thought I’d point out this typo:
time-machine-use into account.
Fair point, but if they’re using their time machine to publish follow-ups a decade ahead of time I think they need to re-prioritize their lives 🙂
That’s the lede from the Guardian’s article.
Where do you see Democrats continuing to fight or Democratic victory in that lede?
#NoBillNoBreak was the hashtag yesterday. There is no bill and the GOP is still going on break. And the Democrats wilt after 26 hours. You may not like it, but that is the public narrative now.
That does not communicate at all that the incumbent Democrats are going to fight for anything. Even with support surrounding the Capitol and having won the day yesterday.
If the GOP had backroom negotiations to get this result, the GOP will not deliver on their part of the bargain. Lucy and the football.
The only way the particular bills made sense is if the Deomocrats were going to force amendments to them.
Twenty-six hours was not long enough for the public to get what was going on.
Too old. Too tired. Or it really was just a PR stunt after all and not serious and justified direct action.
Took a stand, then caved before achieving much, if anything, of substance.
Which does leave it looking like mostly a PR stunt, alas.
In fairness, think booman’s post was prior to this disappointing development. (Won’t go so far as saying it accomplished nothing worthwhile. Just far short of what it promised and could have. I.e., maddeningly typical for Dems!)
I for one am dismayed that the reps and senators involved didn’t withdraw into the
Sierra MaestreBlue Ridge, establish a provisional government, and commence guerrilla raids on Tyson’s Corner and Falls Church…Wimps.
accomplishes soooo much!
The revolution will
not be televisedsatirized!I see.
Oh, the heavy burdens and travails of the satirist!
And these are the people we have representing us.
Wonder if they shook some money loose? Progressives have pretty much stopped contributing to the DNC organs, preferring to donate directly to the candidates they prefer.
That sort of cynicism with the use of a hero of the civil rights movement can kill a party. I hope that was not the logic at all.
Open Secrets show $48M on hand. Maybe Marie knows how that stacks up… I have no idea.
Have never followed the campaign committees fundraising and spending and therefore, have no pre-existing data-sense of what it should look like at this point.
The NRCC had $53 million to the DCCC’s $48 million. Spending to date for the RNCC was $50 million and DCCC $56 million. Suggests to me that both are in a defensive posture.
The Senate committees are more interesting. DSCC raised $89 million, spent $69 million, and COH $21 million. (Debts of $5 million if paid would reduce COH to $16 million.)
NRSC raised $60 million, spent $41 million, and COH $22 million.
Republicans have 24 seats up this year and Democrats have 10 seats; so, the fundraising and spending by the GOP appears pallid. However, as of that last reporting date, they aren’t in a worse financial situation than Democrats. These committees are fueled by big money donors (individual limit $34,200/year), and therefore, they can raise a lot of money quickly. A big chunk of the DSCC money went to defeat the non-Clinton candidate in the Dem primary and probably to get a win for that Republican in FL. Neither may prove to have been a good investment.
Thanks.
Sorry — neglected to specify that it was the PA primary that the DSCC dumped serious money into.
Alan Dershowitz on CNN said this was a pr stunt and they looked like buffoons and this would all end badly for them. I thought maybe he was a little extreme, but you seem to agree. It is hard to see what it accomplished I have to admit.
There seem to be more moving parts to what is going on.
What generally gets compromised is Dems’ ability to have a clear choice presented to voters. Let’s wait and see what the magic of Harry Reid does this time. If it makes it to the House, it is “Me too” and “Bye; let’s go break.” as the House rushes the exits without roll call votes. And all the bought NRA candidates can “vote their consciences” without the voters noticing they have none.
Meanwhile the security state marched on, from cops not having to give a shit whether a search is illegal, to allowing state-enforced breathalyzers without a warrant. Incredible.
BOHICA.
Bend over, here it comes again.
And the Republicans did not miss a beat in trying to defund Planned Parenthood…House Republicans used the sit-in to vote on a Zika bill that targeted Planned Parenthood
http://www.vox.com/2016/6/23/12014360/zika-sit-in-democrats-gop-house
Boy, I’d like to understand the mental processes against women’s choice.
BooMan,
Given what you agree is “surely” “bad legislation that would ratify a badly flawed system that is already being misused” — Given that, you should agree that the truly dispiriting thing here was the the near-universal description by sit-in-touting liberals of that proposed legislation as “common-sense gun legislation.”
“Let’s bullshit our constituents” is a recipe whose dire results we can easily see by looking at the conservative side of the country.
I don’t regard it as cynicism to be wary of such tactics.
Using the terror watch list is a crappy idea for a law. Just have GOOD background checks. Ban automatic weapons like bazookas.
Besides, (just like with LH Oswald) the FBI took Mateen OFF the watch list soon before he got down to business.
Athenae writes in support of BooMan’s POV here:
https:/first-draft.com/2016/06/22/its-only-poetry-nobillnobreak-gun-control-and-what-were-about
The best part, in my view:
“Tonight the story is that Democrats are demanding votes on gun control legislation, and are willing to put their bodies on the floor until those votes happen, and Republicans are blocking those votes and turning off the cameras and walking out of the chamber. That’s the story now.
America has been really hard to love, lately.
Between the ongoing violence in the city and the seemingly neverending stream of nonsense coming out of Donald Trump’s mouth, between the perpetual debate about how mean we should be to poor people and the fact that people genuinely think yelling on the internet is like having your head busted in at a protest, America has been a really prickly, unloveable place.
But tonight, hearing about the sit-in John Lewis and his fellow Dems were staging, people started gathering at the Capitol. People came and held signs and yelled that they were with those inside, that they were watching, that they cared.
Inside, on the floor of the People’s House, a bunch of men and women in suits sang We Shall Overcome.
A lot of people are calling this posturing. Calling it theater. But it’s not. It’s poetry. And there are worse things than poetry. People have sat on hard floors all night for worse things than poetry. People have died, for worse things than poetry. And nobody is poorer or dumber or hungrier because of poetry.
And if tonight we are one iota less alone, in our fear and our anger, because of that poetry, then sing on.
A.”
Politics is theatre though.
99.9% of the time, politics isn’t a legislator sitting in a room voting on laws.
Successful politicians can tell you why something is good or bad, and they do it with a narrative. Poor politicians cite facts and figures which the audience finds boring or irrelevant. There are good and bad successful politicians, and good and bad poor politicians.
An educated and engaged electorate is able to distinguish successful politicians who should be listened to, and which successful politicians are full of shit and should be ignored.