What are Republicans who recognize that Trump would be a disaster as President supposed to do? Some will outwardly support him, while hoping that he loses and perhaps working quietly to undermine him if it appears he might win. But that means tacitly supporting Hillary Clinton. Some will, for political or even possibly principled reasons, find it impossible to endorse Trump. Does that mean openly supporting Clinton? The day Clinton wins election, Trump becomes irrelevant, and the job of the Republican media machine will be to maximally vilify her, as they have been doing, and as they did to her husband and to Obama. How will it feel then to be a prominent Republican who endorsed Hillary? How can you function in the party? If you are a donor, you will be welcomed back, because money is always greeted with warm hugs, but if you are a politician, an operative, a pundit? If Hillary wins, the dangers of Trump will never be realized and therefore never be proven to those who don’t want to see them. It will be possible retrospectively to pretend those dangers were never real, as there is no possibility of otherwise being proven.
Jonah Goldberg, discussed by Booman in a recent post, is a case in point. He doesn’t want to endorse Trump, because he doesn’t want that hanging around his neck later. But endorsing Clinton would be worse for him, particularly if Clinton wins, as that endorsement will never become irrelevant while she sits in the Oval Office. You notice Colin Powell has remained a non-entity on the right since endorsing Obama.
His way out would be to endorse the Libertarian ticket, Gary Johnson and Bill Weld. Here is a recent ad of theirs, currently making the rounds on social media:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQv_6GXVbDw
Unlike almost all third party candidates in history, and unlike Donald Trump, these men are former governors and therefore both qualified for the Presidency by conventional standards. Their platform conserves the pro-wealth, pro-business core of the Republican platform, which Trump does not, entirely, and which is what the Republican elite really cares about. It does mean cutting the religious right and the militarists loose, but neither of those are pulling much weight in the Trump campaign either, and the consequences are limited since these men are not likely to take office and that would not be the point of endorsing them.
If Hillary Clinton takes office, the Republicans are facing the prospect of 16 consecutive years of a Democratic Presidency, something that has not happened since Roosevelt/Truman. It will leave the Supreme Court with a center-left majority impossible to surmount for decades. And this will happen while the Republicans are in disarray, trying to reassemble their ideology, party, and coalition from the smashing Trump has provided. Many of them will want to roll the dice on an alternative.
And Johnson/Weld don’t have to win. They only have to carry a few states, enough to deny either candidate an electoral majority. That throws the election to the House. Each state in the House gets one vote, which will actually increase the Republican majority. The House is nutty enough to choose Trump. Impossible to imagine they choose Clinton. And if they fail to decide, I believe it would go to Ryan by default (hat tip N1chlas for pointing this out), which is an outcome most of them and certainly the Republican establishment would prefer anyway.
What could Johnson/Weld achieve with real money behind them and with the media covering them and taking them seriously, which would happen if they found support among the Republican elite? They are both apparently popular in their homes states. If Weld took Massachusetts, that would be a huge blow to Clinton. There are also swing states with Libertarian leanings, like Colorado and Wisconsin. It could only take a few to deny Clinton an electoral majority.
The pot vote could be a minor factor. Clinton will find it hard to give in on this, even though she probably smoked along with Bill, back in the day. Hippy-punching is instinctive for her. The Libertarian Party has been pro-legalization, no ifs, ands, or buts, all the way back to the 70s and has never wavered. If all you care about is pot legalization, they have earned your vote. However, there are bigger issues, and I think most of the pro-pot voters will see that and will see as well that at this point they are winning, and Clinton is not going to spend that much political capital opposing them, just as Obama did not. Still pot may be good for a few percent at the margin.
One more point. Clinton is already going heavily negative on Trump and rightly so. Trump will go heavily negative on her as well, because that’s all he knows how t do. In a two-person race, this is zero-sum. But if Johnson gets any traction at all, having the two major candidates do their best to make one another toxic can only help him.
Updated
Appreciate how well you gamed out such a scenario. Although your hypothesized final outcome seems like a true stretch to me. Could more easily see an actual Johnson/Weld win.
n1cholas convinced me my scenario was incorrect, so I modified the post.
Thanks. Knew something seemed off about it, but was too busy yesterday to pull up and think through the 12th Amendment. (Actually read it somewhat recently when a dispute arose here about the POTUS/VEEP being from the same state. (If Bush and Cheney hadn’t finagled a way for Cheney not to be a TX resident, the VP selection would have defaulted to the Senate. The new Senate elected as of 11/00 (20th Amendment). Split 50-50 and therefore, Gore would have cast the tie breaking vote. Wonder how much it would have hurt him to vote for Lieberman, and continued to hurt as he watched Lieberman embrace GWB.)
At the very least, a strongish Johnson/Weld ticket could bring more “mainstream” Republicans to the polls since they’d have a Presidential ticket to vote for thereby decreasing our chances of winning impt downballot races.
Good point. Validating the Libertarian Party, though, does further damage to the institutional Republican Party.
As I understand it, the 12th Amendment only allows the state delegation to the House of Representatives to cast a vote for the top 3 candidates for President who received electoral college votes.
This seems to preclude Paul Ryan or anyone else who didn’t actually receive any electoral college votes from being elected to President by state delegations to the House of Representatives.
In essence, if only two candidates for President receive electoral college votes (Trump and Clinton), the state delegations to the House of Representatives are limited to voting for only those two candidates.
If there are three candidates who receive electoral college votes (Trump, Clinton, Johnson), then each state delegation to the House of Representatives can cast a vote for whichever of those three candidates it wants.
And if four candidates receive electoral college votes, each state delegation to the House of Representatives is limited to the top three electoral college recipients, and cannot cast a vote for any candidate who received less electoral college votes.
Additionally, the state delegations to the Senate vote on the Vice-President, and are limited to voting for the top two recipients of electoral college votes for Vice-President, exempting a third Vice-Presidential candidate with less votes, such as Weld.
If the state delegations to the House of Representatives are unable to select a President, then the Vice-President selected by the Senate would act as sitting President until the state delegations to the House elected a candidate as President.
In other words, Trump or Clinton’s Vice-Presidential candidate would be the acting President, and the House could elect Johnson, Trump, or Clinton as President at some point in the future.
You’re right. Serves me right for believing what I read in an article instead of consulting the source. Goodbye President Ryan. Will revise post.
Well, that said…
If the House fails to elect the President, and the Senate also fails to elect a Vice-President, then Ryan, as Speaker of the House, would become acting President.
He can’t be elected President, but he would be the President until the Senate voted a Vice-President in, or the House voted a President in.
Given the fuckery of Republicans, I could see the Senate and House being “unable” to get a majority to vote for either to let Ryan sit there long enough to do some real damage.
Out of curiosity, does the LP have enough of an organization in any of the states to actually be competitive? Is there enough of a ground game to actually carry a state or states? If so, which ones? The reason I ask is simply because like the Green Party, the Libertarians have been fairly successful at getting their slate of candidates on the ballot in most states, but have never been able to do much beyond that (a fair amount of that has nothing to do with either party and more to do with both parties having to compete on a very unlevel playing field).
I believe the answer to this is no. That is one reason I am supposing the campaign would just target a few states. If they got big Republican defectors, they would get money and expertise. But time is very short.
Keep in mind, though, that Trump just won the Repub primary with no organization t speak of. He still doesn’t have one. He will need one, but his current position shows you can do quite a bit with just media, including social media, in this day and age.
A split EV College vote would most likely resemble parliamentary election where no party got a majority of the seats. You would see negotiation before the vote.
So I don’t think it would ever get to the House.
So who would reach a deal?
Clinton and Johnson?
Trump and Johnson?
Or Clinton and Trump?
And at what cost would the partner who does not get to be president hand over his or her EC delegates?
Nobody knows. As the delegates don’t actually gather together to cast their votes, how would any negotiation be conducted? What could those that somehow are empowered to conduct negotiations offer to delegates for one of the opposing candidates. Would the payoffs be made public?
A better guess under an unprecedented hypothetical is that it would end up in federal court with at least one faction being forced to defend why an EC failure shouldn’t automatically default to the House for the presidential selection and Senate for the VP selection.
I’m not seeing any of those work. Johnson goes to Trump would mean slaying the Lib party just when it got some legs and undermining the main reason they got mainstream support in the first place. The decision would be in the House. Clinton or Johnson are impossible. Trump is very unlikely. What if they fail to elect anyone? Here is clause 3 of the 20th amendment
If, at the time fixed for the beginning of the term of the President, the President elect shall have died, the Vice President elect shall become President. If a President shall not have been chosen before the time fixed for the beginning of his term, or if the President elect shall have failed to qualify, then the Vice President elect shall act as President until a President shall have qualified; and the Congress may by law provide for the case wherein neither a President elect nor a Vice President elect shall have qualified, declaring who shall then act as President, or the manner in which one who is to act shall be selected, and such person shall act accordingly until a President or Vice President shall have qualified.
So it sounds like if the House cannot choose among the three candidates, Congress picks whomever they want. Obviously, a stupid design if that is actually how it works. Maybe I’m misreading it? This is probably what the article I read meant. It just skipped a step. But if the House fails to choose among the candidates, the Congress decides who it wants. Right?
Headed to the Supes for sure, but no guarentee of a clear decision there either, with an 8 person body.
This can’t even be provisionally gamed out because we won’t know the make-up of each state delegation to the House and Senate until after the election. (Note: voters not residents of a state become disenfranchised as this point.)
Just for fun, assume no EC majority for either POTUS or Veep. The decision for the President defaults to the House. And based on the above wording, the House would vote first from among the top three. Assume still no majority. Then the Senate would vote on the Veep. As there are only two candidates for this, a quorum is 67 senators and the required majority is 51 votes. From inauguration day until the House selects a POTUS, the Veep would be acting POTUS.
If Democrats have a net gain in the Senate of four seats, that would mean a 50/50 split with King and Sanders voting with the Democrats. Bet that one wasn’t anticipated when the 12th amendment was written. And what happens if one of the VP candidates is also a sitting Senator or wins his/her 2016 senate race?
Johnson/Weld would have to win more states/electors than Trump/X for Weld to advance to a Veep vote in the Senate.
If both chambers are deadlocked, would that advance Biden to POTUS?
The 12th amendment says this:
“And if the House of Representatives shall not choose a President whenever the right of choice shall devolve upon them, before the fourth day of March next following, then the Vice-President shall act as President, as in the case of the death or other constitutional disability of the President.”
The way this is worded, I’m not sure what “before the fourth day of March” modifies here. If the first clause, it means the House has until March 4th to select a new President. But since that would be after inauguration, it must be the second clause – the vice-President will serve until March 4th – then what? Since it doesn’t say Vice-President elect, and the House is supposed to select the President immediately, and therefore under this scenario would fail immediately, I’m thinking vice-President here would be Biden.
No. The 12th predates the 20th that modified the inauguration from March 3 to January 20 and each session of Congress begins on January 3.
It then slightly clarifies the 12th:
So, Congress can do whatever it damn well pleases, but only until a President elect or VP elect has qualified. The word “qualified” could present difficulties. On first reading I thought it was only in reference to getting the required majority of the votes. If that were correct, then the following clause is redundant: or if the President elect shall have failed to qualify,. Eligibility: 35 years of age, natural born citizen, and not having been elected President more than once and not have served as President for more than six years.
Section 4 was addressed in the Presidential Succession Act of 1947 and the 25th Amendment clarified that when the VP is promoted mid-term and the power to nominate a replacement VP was given to the President. With the deaths of FDR and JFK, the office of the VP was vacant until the next election.
I’m not seeing any legal authority for the House to choose a President outside of the three top candidates and the Senate to choose a VP outside of the top two candidates.
Both chambers can concoct their own rules to come up with a substitute for the President until they can manage to elect either a POTUS or a VP. As Speaker, Paul Ryan is the authority on House rules. He could rig it so that GOP House members could name the substitute and as he’s third in the line of succession, could name him. That’s not going to fly with a majority of the public. The idea that the House would name Hatch as the substitute isn’t any better. It seems to me that the least bad option would be Biden. Presumably he could serve as acting President all the way until 1/20/21.
Do not forget the military. In the absence of a real consensus, throughout history it has most often been the military that enforced order when all was falling apart.
“Can’t happen here?”
That’s what they said a year ago about Trump.
Guns are very strong votes.
A consortium of money and the military considered taking over here during the Depression.
Here is a précis of what went down, from Wikipedia.
I repeat:
“The news media dismissed the plot, with a New York Times editorial characterizing it as a ‘gigantic hoax’.”
So nu?
The media…led by the Good Grey Whore…up to its usual tricks. Nothin’ new here…move along.
This time the unrest is liable to be much more serious. The U.S. electorate really doesn’t want either of the two main candidates, and it is beginning to realize that the whole electoral scam is just more of the usual political smoke and mirrors.
What doesn’t change?
The military.
Not really.
It’s happened before, elsewhere.
When the American Dream…the real dream, the “democracy of the people” dream that has been misedumacated into so many people’s heads…goes up in smoke? What then?
Naked power.
It could happen here.
Bet on it.
AG
P.S. War Is A Racket by Major General Smedley Butler
Read it.
Does it sound like it was written by a liar and/or a fool?
Not to me it doesn’t.
“In its report, the committee stated that it was unable to confirm Butler’s statements other than the conversations with MacGuire.”
In its report, the Warren Commission stated that it was unable to confirm anything other than the official explanation for JFK’s death, no matter how many people stepped forward with contradictory evidence.
What?
You think they pulled that act out of a hat? It’s been standard governmental procedure for hundreds of years.
Trust none of them.
You be bettah off.
AG