The four parts are posted on the Sun-Sentinel website (They are labeled I-IIII but aren’t posted in order; so, some futzing is required to view it sequentially.)
My overall impression is that it’s similar to what would have been seen if the first 2016 primary debate had been limited to HRC and Sanders. DWS uses the same debate strategies and HRC. Specifically, she filibusters to get a larger portion of the time, repeats campaign talking points, skirts/deflects questions that don’t favor her, interrupts and talks over her opponent, claims consistency when not in evidence, denies her failures and takes credit for the successes of other Democrats.
The “I’m very proud of X” is a stock answer that both DWS and HRC make frequent use of. Guess it’s effective when focus group tested. I find it annoying at best.
One difference between HRC and DWS is that DWS smirks a lot. It’s both unattractive and condescending to the audience.
That said, Canova didn’t seem to appreciate how difficult it is to debate a candidate that uses the HRC/DWS strategy. As with many before him, he let his frustration with not getting to speak show. In that way DWS got more time to speak and put Canove in a whine position about it. A pre-debate time limit to address a question that cuts off the speakers’ mic when reached would put a stop to this nonsense, but DWS would never have agreed to that. The only effective alternative is to come armed with a few quick jab jokes about the time disparity (along with a little smile to relieve the tedium of his limited facial expressions) and quickly move on with a sharp response that is also as pithy as possible. Don’t waste time on issues and/or records that require long responses if the differences are small and/or the issues/records lack major substance.
For example when DWS claimed a long-standing record of supporting Democratic candidates, Canova should have come back with, you mean like the
three Democratic challengers to incumbent Republicans – the Diaz-Balart brothers and the ever-insufferable Ileana Ros-Lehtinen -friend to terrorists who blow up passenger jets –
that you didn’t support because you are friends with those three Republicans?
Canova did touch on the Democratic losses in the 2014 midterms when DWS was DNC chair, but again it wasn’t sharp and focused. It left standing DWS claim to have been instrumental in Obama’s re-election and that had the quality of being more important.
DWS put Canova on the defensive several times about his Democratic Party credentials. His responses were too long-winded and lacked the requisite punch for an underdog and first time candidate. Something shorter such as “I’ve always been an FDR Democrat and briefly considered that could better be advanced by being an independent. Unfortunately, Florida isn’t like Vermont [smile] and here a liberal has to work through the Democratic Party or not work at all on important issues for these times.
The FL CD-23 is a tough one for a candidate such as Canova. Coming early in the primary cycle, Sanders didn’t do well anywhere in the state but was weaker in CD-23 than some others. While Sanders may well have done better in FL if that primary had been later, CD-23 would have been a weak district for him.
Canover tried to thread the needle on I/P and Iran. Failed. That allowed DWS to wrap herself around Obama and Israel. Canova was left flailing on why he didn’t support Obama’s Iran deal. There’s no room for nuance on I/P among that Democratic primary constituency and no way to beat someone like DWS on that issue. What he did say wasn’t qualitatively different from DWS’s position. My recommendation would have been to agree with DWS on this issue and move on. That may have horrified some of his small donors outside FL, but at this point in the election cycle that wouldn’t matter. If that’s his authentic and fully considered position, he could have preserved viability as a candidate for a future election in CD-23 (except not as a primary challenger to DWS) but won’t get the same level of financial support from those outside FL.
Canova also got tangled up over the minimum wage. Like a double foot-fault. It’s fine to say one supports a $15 minimum wage, but not fine to say “I don’t know how that’s accomplished.” A decent answer would have been, “the same way every increase in the minimum has been done by Congress.” Then remind the audience that it’s been nine years since the last one was done and none in my opponents last four terms. Add in that congress needs to return to the days of passing increases in the minimum wage no less infrequently than every six years or better yet index the minimum wage for inflation and automatic increases.
A major task for Canova in this one and only debate was to hit her hard on payday lenders and wrap himself around Elizabeth Warren. With DWS filibustering the time, he couldn’t rely on the moderator (who did make an effort to be fair) to get the debate there. Shaving seconds off the time he used for all of his responses may have opened up enough time. Still, being prepared to seize an opportune moment to redirect the debate was also necessary. The moderator would probably have indulged him after the seemingly endless repetitions from DWS tooting her own horn with “I’m proud ….” I’ve been wonderful, successful, … “I’m a Democrat…” “My constituency loves me …” “My family lives here, I’m a breast cancer survivor.”
It wasn’t that Canova was bad and DWS was good. If the scoring were based on staying on topic, DWS would have been the clear loser. It’s not even that DWS scored any real points. It’s that Canova didn’t either, and that’s nowhere good enough for an underdog challenger.
Oops! Tougher for some than others to ignore cheating.
She was so not ready for primetime.
She ran the party the nominee of which you are supporting, Booman…the party that played down and dirty to get rid of Bernie Sanders. (Or maybe played footsie w/him to make it look like there was a niche in the party for left-leaning people. Sad shit either way.) She was…and apparently remains… a close ally of HRC.
What do these things say about your candidate?
AG
You don’t expect an actual answer to your question, do you? Responses to such questions are limited to some variation of, “Must defeat Trump because Putin/Hitler,”
“She can win” or “She beat Sanders; so nyah, nyah.”
What they won’t say is that they support outsourcing/offshoring of jobs and love WalMart (both of which are integral to the increasing income/wealth inequality), more wars and that they support the neoliberals efforts to destroy Syria, Iran, and Russia, that global environment degradation can wait until technology fixes it, and that the Clinton Foundation dirty money (from some of the worst dictators) and lack of any authentic charitable success is A-Okay with them.
They could cite that the “twofer” is a real bargain at $400,000 a year when they could earn $20 million a year from speeches and ghostwritten books.
It really makes me wish the theologians are right about Hell. What is definite is the Hell On Earth for millions (and I think tens of millions) that they will cause and have caused.
Sadly…no, I don’t.
I ask it…and other questions… anyway.
Why?
To force people who read it to answer the question(s) internally.
AG
They will lie to themselves. Self-brainwashing.
Not necessarily. Plant a little seed; see what happens…
AG
This keeps running through my mind. Although “White Rabbit” may be more appropriate.
Nothing good.
Indeed.
This answer leaves a lot unsaid, though.
Doesn’t it.
AG
Sure, but nothing I see any profit in dwelling on.
I did my period of mourning two years ago, privately. Almost gave up blogging entirely over it.
And then I came to grips with it and got ready to make the best of a regrettable situation.
There is something to be said for practicality, Booman.
As you must…
AG
Taibbi – Rolling Stone – The Summer of the Shill
Matt seems to be falling into both-sider-ism. Nowhere near his best work.
Careful using “both-sider-ism” as a pejorative. It’s often true and failing to recognize it is how this country has gotten into so much trouble.
If Taibbi didn’t have it right in this instance, how is it that both parties have nominated candidates with unprecedented high unfavorables? Both sides seem to me to be cultists and can’t understand why the vast majority wants nothing to do with either.
This district is built for Debbie. Like if you told me to design a district specifically for her to win, it would be this one. So there’s never been much hope in unseating her. There’s a reason Canova is opposing the Iran deal, and it’s not any personal political beliefs. But what’s the point in showing no contrast with yourself? Did you see Sanders backing down in the New York primary, knowing he had nothing really to gain and a lot to potentially lose. But in the debate he stood by his Palestinian remarks. That is what I want. Canova? Eh. What the hell is wit Florida and mediocrity?
>>What the hell is wit Florida and mediocrity?
often it seems that in Florida the options are mediocre vs stupid and crazy.
have you read any of Carl Hiassen’s books?
I wrestled with that in the diary. Care to articulate the reason why Canova went with opposing the Iran deal? Seems to me that the voters in the CD appreciate that DWS isn’t really behind it either but can live with her support for it at this time because they have no doubt that given the opportunity to “bomb Iran,” she’ll be all in. So, what exactly did he hope to gain by opposing the Iran deal which Sanders and his supporters have supported?
It’s my understanding that it’s got a heavy Jewish population (15%) relatively speaking, and an older one at that. FL21 is the only district with a higher percentage in Florida (24%). Similar reasons some New York congressmen came out against it is my guess (for comparison, Nadler’s district is 37%, the highest in the country, and he’s taken a lot of shit for supporting it), and Debbie ended up backing the deal (who knows what she actually believes) — so to contrast “who is better for Israel/Jewish people”, he went after the Iran deal.
For all I know the Jewish population of the district supported it (which is consistent with surveys I’ve seen of Jews nationwide being more supportive of the deal than the US as a whole), but an influential and vocal minority made it a big deal.
It would be nice if people could manage to distinguish the concepts “Jew” and “Israel”.
The self-appointed leadership of American Jewry promotes the idea that the two concepts are indistinguishable.
Certain people on both the political right and political left promote the idea that the two concepts are indistinguishable as a way to advance their agendas or their critiques.
The yucky Christian Zionist movement promotes the idea that the two concepts are indistinguishable.
Talk to actual Jewish Americans (including yours truly) and you will find a wide range of opinions about the nature of the Israeli state and its relationship with Jewish Americans. There is a rather wide divergence, I think, between Jewish senior citizens and Jewish millennials, say.
Yeah, it’s personal. I get really tired of people assuming that I have certain attitudes on account of my religious/ethnic heritage.
Sorry, I didn’t mean to fall into that trap myself, I am just attempting to explain why Canova chose to pander in the manner in which he did. I can understand the frustration, and do not subscribe to the belief that being Jewish means being wedded to Israel — quite the opposite. So if my statements perpetuated that, I apologize.
Yes, that’s how I evaluated it. Have to also factor in that the older/Jewish population in the district are the most reliable primary voters. However, why pick the one scab that adds so few potential additional voters to his column and also turns off the Sanders supporters that account for the bulk of his funding? The latter are capable of appreciating the box he’s in wrt to this district and wouldn’t have held it against him if he toed the DWS formal line, two-state on I/P and pro-Iran deal.
Seems clear enough to me that DWS doesn’t support either. “Two-state” is a fantasy that’s expedient in electoral politics. Works for the “greater Israel” folks, pro-Palestine folks, and those that believe the fantasy. The general public has to read between the lines on this one. The Iran deal threw a curve ball into this. Never having had a primary challenger before, DWS had to set down her markers for the general election. Hugging Obama on the Iran deal gets her more votes and loses fewer. Any possible GOP opponent that opposes the Iran deal would also be viewed as unreliable on I/P; whereas, DWS is highly reliable in her full on support for Israel and anything they choose to do.
Going with “two state” and opposing the Iran deal is the Netanyahu and Republican play. False on “two state” and true on Iran. Republicans can’t figure out why that doesn’t work well with most of the Jewish vote, and it only works well with pro-war Republicans because leveling the ME is fine with them. But that’s not going to win in a Democratic primary or the general election in this district.
HRC initially went with the Netanyahu play which demonstrated her ineptness at electoral politics. Polling (finger-in-the-wind) demonstrated they she had to pivot because opposing the Iran deal wasn’t popular with liberal voters and most Jewish voters are liberals. As liberals don’t recognize the fantasy of “two state,” they also can’t see through HRC’s (and DWS’s) fake position on the Iran deal. Sanders played this one just right by adopting Obama’s official line on I/P and Iran. Neither are likely authentic for Obama because in practice there have been too many signals that he’s slightly to the right of both. Not authentic for Sanders either because his words and record indicates that he’s at least slightly too the left on both.
With Canova, who has no record, where he really stands is now a mystery. And demonstrated that his political skills (impulses) suck. After reconsideration, it doesn’t even help him in a second run in this district should DWS get a cushy new job in the HRC administration. Doesn’t help in advancing a generic left-liberal position which is the only reason to heavily fund a sacrificial lamb. A totally bone-headed move, IMO.
Nothing to disagree with, although I think Obama is (personally) to the left on the issue. This from Electronic Intifada shows his political transformation:
How Barack Obama learned to love Israel
Yeah, and Bill and Hill campaigned for McGovern in 1972. I’m not inclined to accept that one can hold onto one’s early positions and opinions after spending decades with and personally benefiting from aligning with those that differ. Obama’s multi-cultural upbringing should set a limit on how far to the right he can personally move. Further than I would have expected as it has turned out, and too far right to assume that he personally identifies with those on the left.
Remove HRC’s “youthful indiscretion” (anti-Vietnam War which has no verifiable date other than by 1972) and this is one issue where she has demonstrated a consistent Cold War and pro-MIC position.
Greenwald – frm the Miami Herald:
When one is ahead, one can make up any damn lie she/he wants.
I’ve got to ask, Marie3: Have you got a day job? You obviously spend one hell of a lot of time digging into politics, history, etc. Not a judgment, just wondering.
Do I comment more frequently than you do? (What I don’t do is spend any time on the lookout for comments by those that I generally disagree with and find something in them to initiate an argument over. Truth be known, I generally skip the comments by those contributors except when it’s a direct attack on me and/or my comment, and even then, I walk away after responding to an attack once or twice. No different from what I do in real life. That significantly cuts down on the amount of time required to post comments)
Having a broad knowledge base, good reading/comprehension skills, and decent research skills facilitates both commenting and writing diaries with some substance. In this instance, I did have to spend an hour watching the debate. And then recheck the data on DWS’s district. The remainder, including my interpretations and conclusions made use of what I already knew. Opinions and impressions based on what one wants to believe bore me. Generally no better than flipping a coin.
If one watched the first 2016 GOP debate, it was clear how Trump “won” it. Hog time and don’t waffle. Not waffling works best with Republicans. A majority of Democrats view waffling as nuance and possessing depth of knowledge. Not surprising that with the general public GWB could get a draw in his debates against both Gore and Kerry.
JoelDanWallis, What’s the point of your quasi-innocent, quasi-nonjudgmental question? Just wondering. An offhanded query is the oldest device in the book to criticise by insinuation.