As a Pennsylvanian, I remember being a little perplexed about how much effort John McCain and Sarah Palin were making to win my state in 2008, but I didn’t know or had perhaps forgotten how big that effort actually was. According to Prof. Terry Madonna of Franklin & Marshall College (he’s our state’s Charlie Cook or Nate Silver), Pennsylvania came in second in advertising money spent (behind Florida and ahead of Ohio) and came in third in post-Labor Day election events.
Four years later, Romney and Ryan concluded early on that Ohio was the better investment. But once they determined that Ohio was out of reach (don’t tell Karl Rove), they made a late push to make Pennsylvania competitive.
But in 2012, the strategy of the candidates changed. Pennsylvania was virtually ignored by the presidential campaigns. Mitt Romney only decided to make a push in the Keystone State after he reached the conclusion that he could not win Ohio. So, for the last two weeks of the campaign Romney and Barack Obama spent some time and some money in the state, with about $30 million in television advertising.
Of course, by Election Night, the Romney campaign had somehow convinced themselves that the polls were skewed and that they would win Ohio and the election, but their post-Labor Day shift to Pennsylvania shows that they were more rational about their Ohio prospects in the weeks leading up to the election.
As Madonna goes over the latest polling results from Franklin & Marshall, there is not much to surprise a seasoned observer of the Keystone State’s politics. The Democrat holds a seven point lead, outside of the margin of error, and her support is centered in Pittsburgh and Philadelphia and the Philly suburbs. The most significant finding in the sense that it represents a change from precedent is that Clinton is winning with college-educated white women. This isn’t in the least surprising to me as I live in the suburban collar around Philadelphia and I don’t think I know any college-educated white women among my friends, associates, teachers, medical professionals, folks in the pharmaceutical industry, who would even consider voting for Trump. It’s a finding anecdotally confirmed by Toronto Star reporter Daniel Dale:
[Trump’s troubles] are most acute in manicured oases like Montgomery County’s affluent Blue Bell, 40 minutes north of Philadelphia. A summer day spent talking to 37 women at McCaffrey’s Food Market, a store offering artisan pizza and custom cakes, corroborated the basic finding of data from Pennsylvania to Virginia to Colorado: Trump is staring at a suburban whupping.
Mr. Dale had no difficulty finding Republican women who are not going to be voting for Trump, which lines up with what I’ve observed. John McCain and Mitt Romney had a lot more visible support around here (from signs to just people talking) than Trump does. And women, in particular, won’t even consider his candidacy.
These articles are cropping up all over the country in both local and national newspapers. You can read headlines like White Women in Charlotte Suburbs Were Reliably Republican. Then Came Trump. in the Charlotte Observer.
Or, you can see comments like this syndicated from the Los Angeles Times:
Whit Ayres, a Republican pollster who has spent decades surveying Southern voters and worked for Trump’s primary rival Marco Rubio, agreed. Particularly worrisome, he said, is Trump’s lagging support among college-educated white voters — especially women — who abound in the sprawling suburbs ringing Atlanta.
“A normal Republican nominee,” Ayres said, “would be comfortably ahead in Georgia.”
The warning sign for Clinton, which also explains why the polls have been tightening, can be found here in the F&M polling:
Clinton does hold a sizable lead on the questions of who has the experience needed to be president (55 percent to 20 percent) and who is most prepared to handle foreign policy (55 percent to 25 percent).
On the other hand, Trump holds a narrow lead when voters were asked who is the most honest and trustworthy (33 percent to 27 percent) and who will change government policies in a way that makes your life better (38 percent to 34 percent).
It’s frankly amazing that anyone not named Joe Isuzu could be trailing Donald Trump in the honest and trustworthy category, but Clinton is getting Swift-Boated pretty hard at the moment, this time by a lazy political press. It’s not that Clinton hasn’t at times legitimately damaged her reputation for candor and forthrightness in this campaign, but going back to the pre-primary days it has been widely noted that Trump lies constantly, to the point that Politifact felt to compelled to rate Trump’s “collective misstatements” their Lie of the Year for 2015.
PolitiFact checked 77 Trump statements and found that 76 percent of them were Mostly False, False or Pants on Fire.
In other words, for every four statements Donald Trump makes, only one of them is true, according to the site.
As recently as yesterday, Trump refused to disavow his Birtherism, claiming that he simply doesn’t talk about it anymore.
Yet, somehow, Clinton, who has no equivalent fake moon-landing theories of her own, is the less-trusted candidate even in a state she’s carrying by seven points.
If she needs to fix anything or shore up any weaknesses, this is it.
It’s insane that she needs to do it, but this whole country is half-insane right now.
It’s fucking insane. Trump is the Michael Jackson of lies. Clinton is just Vanilla Ice.
She’s raised, what, $250 million? And she was one of the Most Admired Women in America twenty minutes ago. A hostile ‘both sides’ press was inevitable. How did her campaign let this happen? (I know she’s not been entirely honest, but surely that’s what the quarter-billion dollars is for; to manipulate the media.) Her campaign seems to have ceded all initiative. Is there no way to seize the narrative? Can our side not use the Gish gallop?
Electability amirite?
IT wouldn’t matter in the least what HRC did to counteract the “lyin'” charges. Defending her truth ratio would only give fuel to the fire.
You need proof? Look at the comments by progressive lion Voice in the Wilderness.
Surely there’s more to $100 million in media savvy than ‘defending her truth ratio.’ Like attacking Trump in novel ways? Or announcing new policies/initiatives that suck up the oxygen? Or … I don’t know! But I don’t have literally millions of dollars to spend on this shit.
You might be right. I will, however, point out that HRC is one of the pre-eminent politicians of our age, that her elected advisors are of the first water, that non-elected advisors include some the fiercest attack dogs known to American politics (Carville, anyone?) and that Trump is still flapping his lips (the AZ speech hurt more than helped).
In this case, I’ll leave the messaging to the people who’ve actually been or actually have been associated with winning campaigns.
Thanks for the “progressive lion”, although I think you meant it sarcastically. Thanks, anyhow.
You ask:
“How did her campaign let this happen?”
She had baggage., It dropped, and it continues to drop. Her “campaign” is part of her baggage.
Once it was clear to the interested segment of the U.S. population that the DNC had actively conspired to defeat Bernie Sanders, it all began to go bad.
It’s not that people wanted Bernie…some did, some didn’t and some didn’t give a flying fuck one way or another. But siccing hordes of people like Debbie Wasserman Schultz on him should have been off the table.
It wasn’t, and they got outed.
So it goes.
And Abedin/Weiner!!!? Please!!!
Remember…this election is a popularity contest, not a rational debate. It has been so at least since JFK/Nixon.
Choose your helpers well.
She didn’t.
Now she’s paying for it.
AG
P.S. And while we’re at it…choose your allies well too.
Again…she didn’t.
She tried to stonewall it…that’s her preferred means of fighting potentially damaging information…but of course, she couldn’t. Wall St. and the bankers are without a doubt the most hated group overall in the country. On merit.
Yeah, but that’s all small beer. I’ve still got my Bernie bumpersticker, but honestly, who cares about Bernie? And I spent half my time on political blogs and still wasn’t interested enough in Weiner to find out exactly what he did this time. There are actual problems in the world. (One of which is that the Democratic Party is the American version of the Tories …)
Yeah, it’s a popularity contest. But she’s running against an unholy hybrid of Jabba the Hutt and Eddie Haskell, against a guy who doesn’t have supporters, he has rubes. Of course, the person with the best personality doesn’t necessarily win the contest*; the person who performs the best personality wins the contest. That’s my problem. Trump is performing as, I don’t know, Gollum playing Mitt Romney, my preciousssss, but Clinton’s not even on the stage. I don’t know how many people she’s paying small fortunes to handle this shit, but they’re not handling it.
(*I realize I’m a lonely voice on this one, and I’m pretty unhappy with her center-rightism, but I actually find Hillary Clinton quite appealing, on the level of personality.)
I think Arthur is a bot.
I love his visual mash-ups.
You mark yourself as a newbie. I’ll be glad when the election is over and you all go back to kos.
Me too.
AG
Just for the record, Arthur signed up here on 2005-07-01 at 06:22:34 am eastern time, probably while eating his Wheaties.
That’s an eleven year run as a bot.
He’s not a bot.
He’s half out of his mind, but he’s not a bot.
I don’t have a clue how long I’ve been here, but Arthur was already perched on a stool when I walked through the door. There have been commenters come, and there have been commenters go. And either you love him or you hate him, but Arthur is a bit of a unique voice here at The Pond. You are free to personally define that word “unique”.
they were [are?] running a defensive campaign.
I was curious about the latest CNN poll which showed Trump up.
Apparently, of the respondents, 28% selfdescribe as Democrats and 32% self describe as Republicans. When did the R’s become a bigger pool than D’s?
In this day of polarization, pretty much anyone describing themselves as R or D means automatic support of the candidate. Hell, Independent usually means “used to be R, but not crazy enough now”.
I rarely question opinion polls (I don’t even question Rasmussen because their polls were historically biased,and fall into place after adjustment). This result is, however, strange.
In terms of pool size, perhaps related to this.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/9/5/1565615/-Registered-Democrats-may-be-declining-but-the-number
-of-new-Democratic-voters-isn-t
The latest CNN poll shifted from registered to likely voters (this is typical as the election approaches). It is not inconceivable that there are more Rs among likely voters, especially since many younger voters lean left but consider themself independent.
See my reply to Booman’s post below.
AG
I’m sure that the campaign would love to improve her “honest and trustworthy” numbers, but how would she do that?
It’s not like she’s actually bad about being truthful relative to other politicians as is evidenced by Politifact amongst other things. She exaggerates at times, just as everyone running for office does, but she’s actually not bad when it comes to being truthful. Nor has she shown issues with regard to being trustworthy.
Her big issue is the way that the media covers her as has been highlighted elsewhere. Unlike essentially everyone else in the public eye, the media doesn’t give her the “presumption of innocence”, so we end up with every allegation or story being framed as one of a problem of “optics” where there is a pall cast over her with this new set of allegations of corruption (or whatever) that oddly are never substantiated by the actual content of the stories covering said allegation.
The media moving from manufactured “scandal” to manufactured “scandal” (Benghazi!->email->Clinton Foundation->?) though there’s nothing actually to them is what damages her numbers seemingly, and I’m not really sure how she can do much about that.
There’s also the issue where HRC gives hyper-careful answers instead of just clear flat out ones. That’s a big impression driver.
Sure, but much of that’s due to her being (rightfully) cautious when saying anything that the media can then misconstrue or use to club her with. Due to the media essentially assuming guilt or ill intent (or at least framing things to suggest such) on just about any topic she’s defaulted to being very, very careful in how she says things.
It’s a self-reinforcing cycle. “she carefully parses her language, thus she’s hiding something”, which makes her less likely to speak to the media or be at all free with them.
Many days, trump likely doesn’t say anything that’s actually truthful, but apparently that’s not as much of a story as “back in 1995, Hillary said X, but 20 years later she says Y…”. She’s held to a much different standard for some broken reason.
Hillary Clinton’s lawyerly, cautious answers may be fine in a legal setting, but in a political setting they can be absurd. I recall when she and Sen. Sanders were debating on Univision and the moderator asked the candidates if they would deport minors. Clinton kept giving, “no, but” type answers and rambled on and on. Sanders simply said “no”.
Trump lying has become dog bites man over the last 14 months so everyone is desensitized.
Regardless its up to her campaign and supporters to deal with this even if its not their fault. Blaming the media even if its right diesnt get much traction.
When we blame the media, sometimes the media compensates for that criticism. This is how the right has operated effectively as a referee for a long time now. The audience is not the “audience’ but the actors and directors.
Work the refs if you can. It seems WaPo has not succumbed, but when NBC goes with a coughing attack story well, maybe its not going to do much.
Yes “lawyer” answers.
A fine example is from Bill, not Hill. “I did not have (coital) sex with that woman.” Technically true but vastly misleading.
I hope you are right, Booman. I really do. Better the known danger than the unknown one, I guess.
But…I wonder. All of these “college educated,” “suburban” people…especially women. Aren’t they the ones that are easiest to reach for pollsters and other proponents of the Mighty Wurlitzer system?
In my experience it is much easier to strike up a conversation with a white stranger in an upscale suburb…I lived in a Westchester bedroom community for about 9 years…than it is to do so in a grittier neighborhood regardless of race. The people in the upscale places are simply so full of middle class/upper middle class white entitlement that they do not even dream that they could be in any way harmed in their own, safe little bailiwick while shopping for their artisan pizzas and custom cakes. And during working hours there are many more women…still…than there are men in stores like that and at home as well. Bet on it.
On the other hand, in those grittier neighborhoods I mentioned..in working class areas whether suburban, urban or relatively rural…people are simply more wary of strangers. I shop at a CostCo in Yonkers regularly. Yonkers is primarily a mixed race, working class city just north of the Bronx. People are polite to each other there…no cutting in on lines or snarling at people who are blocking the aisles with their gigantic shopping carts and sometimes undisciplined kids…but they are there to buy stuff that they need while spending less. It’s all business. No chatting at the coffee counter, no “Hah hah hahs” if someone takes the wrong shopping cart by mistake. They simply don’t have the time to waste on chit-chat, plus many of the people there look like they would fight you if you in any way disrespected them. Black, brown or beige, male and female. I’ll bet you that there are very few if any pollsters hanging at CostCos, WalMarts and places of that ilk.
So…my question is this. is there or is there not a sort of equivalent to the physicists’ dark matter in the population…people who simply are not and never have been easily reached by pollsters? Working class and/or poverty level/near poverty level people (As if those three classes are not now fairly well overlapped in this economy as it stands.) of all races and all sexes in all parts of the country who simply do not have the time or inclination to palaver with some bespectacled pollster with a clipboard. I think that this electoral dark matter exists out there, and I further think that is consists largely of the 40%-50% or so of people who do not habitually vote. The only questions that remain are:
1-Are they going to be motivated to vote by this hellaciously strange campaign?
and
2-If they are motivated to vote, for whom are they voting?
Is the generally accepted advantage of HRC amongst women going to hold up in this segment of the population? I wonder. I think that there are many women out there who do simply not like the cut of her jib. Women who don’t like to be talked down to, women who seriously mistrust the whole system, especially the bankers w/whom HRC is plainly allied.
Will the minority vote come out as expected? No one really knows.
And how about the working class and/or poverty level/near poverty level white males? I think Trump has them inextricably in his pocket.
The much ballyhooed by the media so-called “youth vote?” I think that is code for white, middle/upper middle class, college-educated people under the age of 30. Neither candidate seems to be overwhelmingly attractive to this group, and there another part of the electoral dark matter…under-30 people of all races and sexes who did not finish high school, people who did finish high school but couldn’t afford college, people who went to community colleges, state schools , trade schools etc. Do you really think that these people are all “Bernie Bros”? I don’t, and I do not have a clue if they are even going to bother to vote, nor if they do for whom that vote will be cast.
That’s a lot of dark matter, Booman. And it is a group that are not really as sensitive to big-time advertising ploys as are the more easily polled people. Folks don’t shop at WalMart and CostCo because they have been advertised into buying certain brands,…they go there to spend the least amount of money that they can possibly spend in the least amount of time with the least amount of ballyhoo.
Who are they voting for!!!??? With a subquestion…are they voting at all?
I don’t know, and if you are honest about it, you don’t know either. Neither do the pollsters who basically ignore them.
Except for the possibility of some sort of truly stupendous change…an October surprise of some sort…it’s going to be a toss-up until the last votes are counted, Booman. Whether they will be counted honestly is certainly another aspect of the cloud of unknowing presently hovering over this whole situation.
Watch.
And may we all be born(e) into interesting times.
Later…
AG
P.S. All of the official prognosticators…on both sides…can take a long walk off of a short pier as far as I am concerned. They are mostly upper middle class, privileged fools who see the world through affluence-tinted glasses. Right, wrong or just a little bit off, they will be back next time making their predictions and raking in their salaries. They’re just the barkers at this side-show level game, and all they are really doing is making a buck.
A good portion of the folks you are asking about do not show up on pollster’s radar because of the way the data is gathered. Income and education are surrogates for class, but there is no question that separates out: Are you employed by a corporation, a small business, and independent contractor, a small business owner, or other. Most Trump supporters among my network of acquaintances are small business owners or independent contractors who view themselves as self-employed. Among women who were my former classmates in school in South Carolina, the Trump supporters are widows who are part of general “ain’t it awful” conversations. The most vocal ones grew up working class (textile mills) or in military families but themselves worked in prosperous middle class professional jobs. Their attitude toward feminism is that they made it; what are the ladies complaining about. It’s the feminist equivalent of Ben Carsonism.
Yup.
AG
AG–thank you for these comments. You’ve raised, not for the first time, interesting points about class-related issues in polling, for example. What I don’t know is whether or not pollsters try to address your points. Might be best not to condemn them without finding out more about their methodology.
To share an anecdote of my own, I’ll mention that my spouse, from solidly Midwestern working class roots but the first (and only?) one of her clan to get a college education, has been assiduously working to persuade her relations to vote Democratic, with some success.
Every four years I’m surprised by the extent of the stupidity of the American people. One would think I’d have learned by now, but each cycle it seems to cut further and deeper. This time, I’m struck too by the exquisite fragility of the norms of civilization I’ve wrongly taken for granted my whole life. If we were under the kind of economic pressures Germany faced in the 1930s, Trump would probably win this thing by a mile and that’s scary. I suppose it shouldn’t be surprising in that one doesn’t have to turn the clock back far to find evidence of a society in which an entire underclass was held in check through terror. My grandmother used to spend time in the South and she told me that if black people ever felt the need to get even, the blood would have to run in the streets for months.
I doubt that telling people they’re stupid is an effective rhetorical device for persuading people.
Norms are made to be broken.
I’m noticing a version of a google bomb effect from the right lately. It’s more predominant than usual, but try googling ‘Clinton devices hammer fact check’ and you’ll see that the fact checking sites are being shoved back a couple of pages.
It seems to be driven by the regular cast of crazies but it’s also effective in driving the fact checking out of the discussion. Hence the story is always a noun, a verb and HRC is a liar & a criminal, and no one moves off that to look into policies or even look at Trump’s horrendous record.
Total mystery to me why “hammer” would be among those search terms.
Might this be skewing your search result?
Supposedly one or more Clinton aides destroyed some hard drives with hammers, I believe is the current outrage.
Yes, it’s blown up on the right. An aide remembers taking a hammer to two of Clinton’s cell phones which, of course, means she’s a liar.
I wonder what part of those numbers of HC are dislike (from yrs of pretty much mis-aimed partisan attacks) and what part are distrust that her solutions are not gonna work given the way Washington engineers things now. She has positioned herself as a continuation of status quo. Or that her positions are for convenience, not conviction. That includes a large, almost generic distrust of politicians these days. It is not so personal.
I’ll bet there is not a lot of overlap in those two groups. And the “distrusts” will probably vote for her since TINA.
I think Trumps numbers are mostly or all dislike, as no one has any idea of his policies from one moment to the next.
Given the fact that the majority opinion thinks there is no alternative to the Washington consensus, my guess is that it is mostly the unconscious residue of 25 years of partisan attack. Even when people know something is an outright lie, it still influences their “gut feel” of information.
And if a cherished belief is shown dead-to-rights as an outright lie (take the case of John Kerry’s Purple Heart), they will double down.
Not only the media, but the human psyche, is biased towards false positives, worst case scenarios, and horrible judgements of actual risks. And that affects voting behavior such that media consultant work assiduously to push even more false positives in campaign ads.
There is a reason that Trump keeps repeating “Lying Hilllary”. Repetition of a big lie encourages an assumption of credibility through discounting that any human being would be a total liar. It is the primary tool of demagogues. The Trump campaign has not itself presented any evidence; it relies on the media and anti-Hillary forces of whatever political persuasion to do that for them. They can stay on the “high road” or just repeating the charges without getting into the pig sty of fighting over the validity of the mud.
That confusion surrounding her is not going to help. If u are confused guess what the public sees? She has to make her candidacy more compelling than ” the other guy is nuts. So trust me. I’ll one day figure it out. “
True that.
The problem is that would bring up policy, and neither campaign wants to run on policy. The effective policy positions are not popular and the popular policy positions are proven over the past 40 years to be destructive.
She needs to talk, you know call into Morning Joe or somebody and wing it- if she must. But hiding behind ads that many ignore is not going to help. Ask Kerry.
I think her campaign made the classic John Kerry mistake–letting charges hang while fundraising in August. Per Politico, her campaign was pushing a run-out-the-clock strategy (https://mobile.twitter.com/politico/status/768708344613855232), instead of a war room strategy, hoping Trump would disqualify himself. Well, I think we can say that it may be sort of working, but at the cost of allowing Trump to serve up pitches easy for the media to hit.
Now she is back on the road, as is Bill, Bernie, etc. I saw Bill push back on the Foundation nonsense (good), but that shouldn’t have been allowed to hang for weeks. An organization with an “A” rating by charity watch is one to be defended, proudly. She also did a press conference, which seemed to go fine per what I heard on NPR this morning. Hopefully, the campaign gets proactive now that Labor Day is passed, and can start pushing back on Trump (and the media).
What is the alternative? What should the campaign have done?
Kerry’s mistake was not as much answering the charges as not going on the attack himself in August and instead letting himself be photographed windsurfing instead of fishing.
Where were the loyal Democrats when the GOP convention unleashed their purple heart bandaids? What was it that the Kerry campaign alone was expected to respond?
Democrats and the media pretending it was “just politics” instead of a major transgression of a past political campaign norm was the failure.
And the media, remember, is not at all without institutional self-interest in having a close campaign even if it harms the nation. Witness W 2000.
But that gets to my point. Kerry’s campaign let the charges hang and waited until September to start pushing back. That was a mistake, and the campaign itself recognized it as such later.
It was simple, Kerry gave up.
OK so Kerry didn’t fight back. And how is that any different than what Clinton is doing now? Why is she not taking the e mail shit public? Real public? Answer every question and in the process turn it around to Trump business practices and lies. They want corruption, give them corruption. Give them Trump turn arounds, lies, cheating and bigotry. And do it often.
Hillary doesn’t seem to get enough exposure. Trump is always in the news and he and his surrogates, dumb as they are, seem to be on tv a lot. It may just be my perception but it reminds me of 2004 when Kerry just seemed to me to disappear and never responded to the Swift Boat attacks. I began thinking then that he just decided the job was not for him. Hillary seems to avoid the media. That won’t help. Better to confront the demons of those e mails and show everyone she will fight back. Eventually the bunker mentality will get folks to thinking maybe there really is a problem this time. Anyway this trend is troublesome to me. Heaven help us if the Orange Man wins.
This is his genius. He deflects errors by making new news which has to be covered. Old stories get forgotten. Clinton (and staff) don’t really know how to do that.
This whole thing is going to depend on the debates, I think. Perhaps starting tomorrow with the MSNBC/NBC “forum.” Will the press criticize Trump for no policies other than “I’ll make it better” and criticisms of what is. “No solutions Trump.” “No clue Trump.”
Will the press criticize Trump for no policies other than “I’ll make it better” and criticisms of what is. “No solutions Trump.” “No clue Trump.”
No!! Why? Because he’ll likely make more and different “news” tomorrow. How many years did that crap show of his run? Also, people forget that he’s been in the NYC media fishbowl for ages. He knows how to play to the media. Kick them off the plane one day, and have caviar on the plane for them the next. The Clintons can complain all they want, as they’re all part of the same elite, but is it so hard to have beer, cheese and crackers on the plane for the media?
She has got to get out of her bunker or go down.
possibly part of the defensive strategy from the outset. fund raisers at the Hamptons is people she’s comfortable around [ok, everyone, flame me for that]. she needs some press conferences, town hall at a Black Church, something where she’s seen around regular people interacting with regular people
Yup, she needs to take a page from Trump’s book. If she somehow feels that hiding in the bunker will make it all go away, she is sadly mistaken.
I guess it’s ok to complain about Clinton’s treatment by the media but we all knew this would happen. Now there is even some cnn poll showing her tied with trump. There are two conclusions to be drawn…
#2 is a worse problem than #1. Crazy.
The MSM, specifically the big newspapers and Big Five TV networks, don’t want a discussion of issues.
I go with #1.
CNN and the rest of the MSM is so invested in a horserace that they’d do anything to support the supposition.
I think both are correct. American voters just aren’t buying want democrats are selling.
You’re speaking for the entire public now? At worst, its a 50/50 election. As discredited as you think Democrats are, Trump’s barely had a lead against HRC since May. Now, you might have something if the polls swing the other way after the debates.
“It’s insane that she needs to do it, but this whole country is half-insane right now.”
well, they’ve legitimized Trump, something that would have seemed impossible to do. then take it from there
I think she is bringing it all on herself. Go talk to Wolf or Rachel or Lemon and go to some town halls and call some press conferences. Why not?
and a series of them; if everyone attacks her at first, so much the better when she sticks it out and gives 4 or 5