Richard Baehr at American Thinker had a nice conspiracy theory going until someone pointed out that its key premise is flawed. Baehr tried to advance the idea that the Democrats and Jill Stein are participating in recounts of the vote in Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin in the hope that the process will not be completed in time for slates to be chosen in those states for the Electoral College. This would, the theory originally went, deny Donald Trump and Mike Pence 270 electoral votes and throw the presidential election to the House and the the vice-presidential election to the Senate.
And, what would be the point of doing this?
If this goes to the US House and Senate, and the result is the same as result from the Electoral College without the recounts, why do it? The answer is to make Trump seem even more illegitimate, that he did not win the popular vote (he lost by over 2.1 million), he did not win the Electoral College (did not reach 270), and was elected by being inserted into the presidency by members of his own party in Congress.
He had to update his post to acknowledge that the 270 vote requirement rests on there being 538 votes. If there are fewer votes, then the number required for a majority goes down. In other words, even if Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin don’t convene to vote because they can’t agree on who is authorized to vote, Trump will still win a majority of all the votes actually cast, assuming there aren’t a lot of faithless electors. The House and Senate would not need to get involved.
Still, is it possible that the primary motivation behind paying for these recounts is to delegitimize and thereby weaken Trump?
I see no evidence for that. To begin with, the states weren’t selected arbitrarily. They were selected at the suggestion of a small group of computer scientists and election lawyers who noticed anomalies in the votes in those three states and contacted the Clinton campaign to register their concerns and encourage them to call for an audit. If you want to understand the broader concerns better, Prof. J. Alex Halderman of the University of Michigan wrote about them recently. You can read more about how an election could be hacked from MIT Professor Ron Rivest and Philip Stark, the associate dean of mathematical and physical sciences at the University of California, Berkeley. In the case of the three states, there was a discrepancy between how well Trump did in precincts without paper ballots and how he did in precincts that have them. That discrepancy could easily be explained by other factors than hacking, and it was probably a mistake to take that ball and run with it. In fact, part of their message is that a professional hacking job would not be detectable in precincts that lack paper ballots. So, recounting those precincts is basically a misunderstanding of the threat.
Still, Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin are three states where Trump won by relatively narrow margins despite polling that consistently predicted he would lose. In fact, Michigan isn’t scheduled to certify Trump’s victory until this afternoon, and his margin currently sits at 10,704 out of 4,799,284 ballots cast.
The Clinton campaign initially showed little inclination to force a recount, but they will participate now that Green Party candidate Jill Stein has raised the money and signed the required papers to make them happen. If there is some secret collusion between the two campaigns, it is well-disguised. In fact, Jill Stein continues to trash Clinton on a semi-regular basis, including for not seeking the recounts herself.
Stein may be motivated by a desire for attention or to raise money for the Green Party, but those interests don’t intersect with Clinton’s interests.
Now, a hand recount could detect systematic hacking of machines that tabulate paper ballots, even if the hacking code self-destructed after use. If there’s a pattern of Clinton losing (and Trump gaining), say, ten out of a hundred votes in precinct after precinct, that will be trace evidence of what occurred.
The possibility of this happening is the reason election experts think there should always be paper ballots that can be recounted and that audits should be a standard part of all elections, without any party having to request or pay for them.
If nothing like this is found, that will add legitimacy to the election rather than subtracting from it. If evidence is found then the effort would be self-evidently justified.
Of course, I have no idea what would happen then, but it would at least motivate people to demand paper ballots and routine audits in the future. This is clearly what motivated the computer scientists and election lawyers who raised their concerns with the Clinton campaign. It’s less clear that it’s the primary motivator for Stein. The only motivation I see for Clinton is that they feel quite correctly that they ought to have people present during recounts even if they didn’t call for them and don’t expect to benefit from them.
Now, it would be understandable for Trump and his team to worry that this is an all effort to call their victory into question and delegitimize him. But he’s the one who took to Twitter this weekend to argue that the only reason he is behind in the popular vote is because millions of people voted illegally. That’s not only delusional, but it does more to undermine faith in the fairness of our elections than asking for a recount. Since Trump presumably wants to seek reelection without facing millions of illegal votes cast mostly against him, he should be calling for an audit himself if he really believes his own nonsense.
I don’t know what he believes, but he’s pretty aggressively delegitimizing both his election and himself without any help from Jill Stein and Hillary Clinton. Their efforts are more likely to legitimize Trump than not, and are certainly better for that purpose than doing nothing.
Unless, of course, there’s something the recounts are going to find that will truly call the election into question.
As I’ve already said, precincts without paper trails cannot be properly audited and the integrity of their counts can never be verified. So, I wouldn’t expect to find anything conclusive in a recount of those precincts. All that will accomplish is to make sure that election workers can use a calculator correctly. Of course, sometimes they can’t, and sometimes their stubby fingers seem to always err on the side of helping Trump.
Personally, I welcome the recounts, as flawed as they are, because they should be routine and because they’ll either find nothing which will bolster confidence in the result or they’ll find something that should lead to reforms and more secure elections in the future. It’s win-win, to me.
What I don’t believe is that it’s all part of some strategy to throw the election to Congress and make Trump look like a chump.
I was thinking along the same lines a bit earlier and the icing on the cake is that he’s also threatening to go after Hillary again. Let him do all of this. Even Jim Cramer on CNBC might see the light in spite of what he said on CNBC this a.m. that pro-business/deal maker Trump and who doesn’t have press conferences is just what the country needs. After all, he can just do YouTube videos and he DOES have 13 million Twitter followers. Per Cramer, we are entering a new era. My definition of New ERA is way different than his.
I repeated myself, apparently, with relaying the info about the Diebold machines that I vote on. I forget when I’ve left the internets for a time which blog I may have been weighing in about the matter of Stein and the recount. My apologies to all.
Of course there is no plot to throw it to Congress. Only an idiot would believe that.
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After the Bush/Gore election a ton of money was spent buying voting machines that were built by republican companies, had copyrighted code, and didn’t do paper trails. What most people didn’t recognize is that the tabulation machines were also replaced in a similar vein.
There was a story going around that the reason Rove lost his shit over the Romney loss was because Anonymous blocked that overt hacking attempt. It can be argued that something was learned.
Of course you can’t forget the foreign influence on what is actually a sophisticated hack of email servers and the like. Hacking the election result counting would be almost amateurish.
As Josh says, the intervention of a foreign gov’t in our election cannot be forgotten.
My state is one of those. Installed Diebold voting machines that were in place across the entire state by the election of 2002. No paper trail whatsoever. Have asked in prior elections if there was a paper audit/trail of my vote. Got nothing but blank looks from the poll workers.
This is why I support a recount effort. Why should we reflexively trust the vote count in states like mine since there is NO independent audit of the results and the machines are still in use 14 years later?
Something is certainly rotten in the state of
Denmark…errrr, ahhh… the U.S., Booman. Damned if I know exactly what.There are so many possibilities!!!
I posted a new piece today regarding some of them.
And the Beat Goes On. The False News Beat.
What is perfectly plain is that the mass media are trying to delegitimize Trump in every way that they can possibly do so. Just as they did pre-election, only with a hint more panic in their tactics.
Go read one of the articles I linked in one of my comments;
Confessions of an Alleged `Russian Propagandist’: A Pentagon Hit?
Some of the rot is plain to smell…
AG
As with most things like this, there are a number of groups involved with different motives.
I do recall one thing though – Republican accusations are almost always projection. Trump is saying there are millions of illegal votes for Clinton, which makes me suspect there’s millions of illegal votes for him. Combined with Trump having a fit at the recount request (if there’s nothing fishy going on, he has no reason to object), I’m certainly interested in the results.
I think it’s good that Trump is tweeting about the recounts. It may not be true that there are illegal votes on his side, but his being the sore loser just might get through to some other folks who will now start paying attention. We need a whole critical mass of us paying attention ahead of inauguration day.
interesting
What does the Green Party get out of it if they find a few more Green votes in the recount? Lots of Greens are hacked at Stein for the fundraising (believed to be from last-hope Clinton supporters) and the recount.
The computer science profs had a valid argument based on a sample of one county in Wisconsin that turned up anomalies in three different precincts. The vote for Trump exceeded the total vote. That county corrected their count before certifying the totals. Catching those sort of errors should be standard operating procedure, but we have seen lots of instances of counties holding reporting until they see just how many votes it takes to shove the candidate of party of the board of elections majority or county clerk over the top. Every election brings reports of all sorts of shenanigans with the count, from bags of ballots showing up in weird places to unreconciled totals to machine outages that require slowing down the line of voters. After 2000, everyone believes the worst. And maybe rightly so.
Congress and state legislatures have acted to preserve the loopholes instead of close them. After 2000, many states went to electronic voting machines, and the story of the ROBGA file and the surprise vote in Georgia became widely spread. Add the reporting about the capabilities of the NSA, and you have lots of vulnerabilities in US elections that go beyond the peach brandy in the polling place and illiteracy (people helping the marking of ballots) of James Madison’s day.
Without winning the popular vote, Trump cannot claim a mandate, no much how much legitimacy is granted him. A recount can solidify the legitimacy relative to the states recounted. They cannot give Trump a mandate to act as an authoritarian. But that didn’t stop W-Cheney.
The designation “faithless” elector applies loyalty to a candidate through pledge under state law as higher than loyalty to the Constitution. I find it a curious turn of phrase given the function argued for the electoral college. Here we have a classic tyrant who claims to speak directly for the people who merely parrot what the tyrant says. Exactly the case that opponents of democracy cited as a danger. Just watch how rapidly the chains snap shut on January 20 at the moment the benediction ends. That is where normalization leads.
We must take the short-term view in order for there to be the long term in which it matters that there are reforms and secure elections in the future.
It is not un-American or un-Constitutional to seek an electoral college that does its duty instead of votes mechanically on the basis of manufactured loyalty by state-laws binding pledges. It is un-American and un-Constitutional to allow a tyrant to game the processes of democracy to deliver the destruction of the Constitution in practice. Or is that door long since shut? And that donkey long since gone?
chin-stroking about Stein and Clinton (and the Texas Elector who resigned rather than voting for Trump) about, Gee, I wonder what motivates them and what they’re trying to do.
Isn’t it obvious? Like nearly all of the civilized world, they’re in a complete panic about a Trump presidency and are doing anything they can to prevent it, especially since there seem to be some irregularities in some of the states’ tallies.
Obviously I believe in democracy and I believe in votes and majorities — and, as BooMan argued, we all may have our problems with the Electoral College but that’s the system as it exists and the campaigns that are run; we can’t complain about it only when we dislike the results. So if Trump got elected fair and square, so be it.
But the system also says that the Electors can object under extreme circumstances (like, for example, a President-Elect who promised to shed his conflict-of-interest ties and hasn’t — and has already committed impeachable offenses). And, if there are voting problems, let’s fucking look at them, as we didn’t in 2004 and really should have more deeply in 2000 (given Jeb Bush’s role, the Brooks Brothers Riot, etc. — those people got off way too easily).
I also hate it when Democrats as well as Republicans sneer so disdainfully at anything that smacks of a conspiracy theory, not so much from a logic standpoint as from a class standpoint: Oh, please…stuff like that doesn’t happen. Usually it doesn’t, but James Reston assuring the New York Times editorial board that Watergate was a non-story (because Kissinger had told him this over dinner) is just one example of elites dismissing theories because they’re unseemly. (The same thing happened with the Warren Report.)
I’m not Oliver Stone or a tinfoil-hat person. But I resent Josh Marshall and BooMan and others being so totally dismissive of all of this recount business, to the extent that they even wonder what it’s all about. It’s about keeping Trump out of office; isn’t that clear enough? I mean, are we on the verge of a global catastrophe or aren’t we?
First four words got cut off: “I don’t understand all this”
The Texas elector resigned, knowing he’d be replaced by a Trumpling, so he’s certainly not doing all he can to prevent a Trump presidency. Stein seems to be grifting, and it’s just good fortune that she might do some good in this grift. She’s still attacking Clinton as worse than Trump. Sanity check, anyone?
It is indeed very hard to understand why Jill Stein, of all people, would have asked for a recount.
The only thing I can think of is that she hopes to expose the insecurity of the voting system.
If serious discrepancies turn up, she will have done a great service. But it’s unlikely the discrepancies would be large enough to reverse the result.
Jill Stein has, in slightly more than a week, raised as much money as was raised for BOTH her presidential campaigns. She will be able to keep most of it and pretty much do as she wants (including retire in luxury).
There’s your motivation.
I’m sure that will endear her to her many fans … NOT!
…at least by tomorrow or Wednesday here in Wisconsin. How much she’ll spend on lawyers and observers remains to be seen. After all, it’s likely going to cost more than the $7 million target now advertised.
Your argument here, seriously(?), is that Jill Stein is doing this so she can “retire in luxury?” Of course it is. Who doesn’t want to retire in luxury? God bless her I hope she gets her deluxe lake cottage some day. I hope you do as well. Meanwhile, she’s being a responsible politician with a responsible objective in a democratic political system: to make sure the votes were counted right.
Wisconsin alone has come up with a bill of 3.5 million, close to half of what she has raised so far, and that’s not for a hand recount, which they are refusing to do. She now has to go to court to try to get the hand recount, for which they will no doubt charge more.
She is absolutely right to raise as much money as she can and is very unlikely to walk away with any of it.
Meanwhile all the people poo-pooing her motives undermine the only effort underway that could possibly block Trump. Faithless electors won’t happen, and would create a bloody revolution if they did.
Excuse me, more than half what she has raised so far, and, of course, Wisconsin is the smallest of the three states.
In its absence, this imputation of evil motivation to Stein (with whom I have plenty of issues on the merits) looks to me pretty . . . well . . . ok, I’ll say it: “deplorable”:
I’m one of the ones who made a donation to her effort. From my reading at the Green Party site it appears that one of their longstanding objectives is working to insure the electoral integrity of the country’s disparate voting systems. I accept that on its face and I don’t care, honestly, if this was aimed also at acquiring the names and addresses of potential supporters. I just appreciate that someone is doing something, even if that person’s motives are not the purest. Further, we cannot continue to roll over and play dead when it comes to elections in this country.
I live in a red state with 14 year old Diebold Voting machines and with no paper trail whatsoever. No independent 3rd party audit either. It’s all done by the company and by the Secretary of State. An office that’s been in the hands of Republicans for all those 14 years.
Finding common purpose with Jill Stein is not at all a bad thing. And, honestly, I feel better for having DONE something.
“It’s about keeping Trump out of office; isn’t that clear enough?”
Clearly, it’s not. And your examples of Josh Marshall and Booman itself as gutless pussies oblivious to the larger fight, are excellent as well. And good of you to spell out what should be obvious to them.
Given the complete lack of standardization in federal elections and the lack of any solid safeguards such as mandated paper ballots, the more recounts the better. Even when this one can’t by itself alter the ultimate result. If there’s any chance that it can show systematic cheating by pro-Trump forces in even 3 precincts it is critical info, of at least historical interest. We have an obligation to the future to establish the facts of how the republic was destroyed.
With Der Tweeter’s very alarming weekend tweet-storm feverishly asserting that “millions”[!] of fraudulent votes were cast for HRC and that Der Tweeter actually “won the popular vote”[!], we now have as Prez either an actual madman or an American Hitler knowingly espousing Big Lie techniques. So we are in a world of trouble beyond imagining, and most likely the idea of reliable future elections is now gone for good—the American fascist party will not allow itself to lose power.
We had a stolen election where the Repub loser “won” in 2000 and we had questions about electronic voting machines in OH in 2004. Yet when we had Congressional majorities in 2009 we didn’t enact strong national election reform legislation, nor propose a constitutional amendment abolishing the electoral college–a device that could only in future benefit Repubs. Can anyone play this game? Repubs play to permanently rig the system and we can’t even play catch-up.
For my part I think Der Tweeter is quite close to being a madman who persuades himself of the “truth” of the Big Lies he tweets out. There’s no internal restraint and none is likely to be imposed from outside. Anything that can legitimately be done to throw obstacles in the way of the American Madman between now and Jan 20th is an existential necessity. After that the Rules for Authoritarian Life apply…Heil Trumper!
…Booman. At least Jill Stein is focusing attention on our states, right? Your gal (though you deny it), Hillary Clinton couldn’t be bothered really, with Wisconsin (where Sanders won), and Michigan (where Sanders, surprisingly, won), and your unreliable state of ‘fuck what do I know I live in or near Philadelphia’ (PA).
I wanted to say this less stridently, but damned if you don’t, as a habit, damn with faint praise. Hard to believe someone as deliberate as you are would have such a bad habit.
It’s interesting that people think a recount is even possible.. As it is, I would not be at all surprised to find things are even crazier than when in 2000 the ‘hanging chad’ issue in Florida got G W Bush in ( with an assist from the Florida Supreme Court ) without a majority. BradBlog has been posting about election fraud in general and Diebold election machines being undetectable reprogrammable for years. No coverage or results have been obvious. It almost makes Karl Rove look like a model of rectitude.
In the spirit of ‘what’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander’ I’ll remind you political fraud is a tactic going back to gerrymandering – and has more interesting and current examples.
Bernie Sanders Wins California Landslide
BUT
2/3 of his Votes Aren’t Counted
http://justicegazette.org/bernie-defrauded-in-ca.html
BTW I am more commonly oldephartte.blogspot.ca these days, though I continue as opit on Twitter
John Farnham