Let’s think about this:
“Liberals say Mr. Trump’s victory is proof that the Electoral College is biased against big states and undemocratically marginalizes urban and nonwhite voters. Conservatives say the Electoral College serves as a necessary bulwark against big states, preventing California in particular from imposing ‘something like colonial rule over the rest of the nation,’ as the conservative analyst Michael Barone put it. California sided with Mrs. Clinton by a vote margin of four million, or 30 percentage points.”
“Both sides have a point. But in the end, Mr. Trump won for a simple reason: The Electoral College’s (largely) winner-take-all design gives a lot of weight to battleground states. Mr. Trump had an advantage in the traditional battlegrounds because most are whiter and less educated than the country as a whole.”
We can reconfigure this argument just a little and state it differently. For Michael Barone, it’s desirable that less educated people not be imposed upon with the “colonialism” of more educated people. If you don’t like that, you can say, instead, that white people, particularly white people with below-average education, should not be governed by a diverse group of better-educated people.
The first of these arguments would be familiar to the architects of the British Empire who fancied that they were bringing religion, commerce, and civilization to the savages and didn’t quite get why this might not always be welcomed. There was a little matter of self-determination to consider, and people differ on matters of theology, so it’s a little arrogant to think a nation like India, with millions of Muslims and Hindus will see the superiority of the Cross. The more progressive view was that the British didn’t have the answer for everything and that imperialism could easily slip into a tyrannical and exploitative system where indigenous cultures were disrespected or unjustifiably stamped out. I don’t typically think of the people, e.g., of the Ohio River Valley the same way that I think about Indians suffering under British rule, primarily because we’re all supposed to be part of the same culture and polity. But the resistance we see to progressive values and dictates from Washington DC (“I can’t drive 55”) does share some common features with anti-colonialism.
The second argument is a little less compelling. It basically argues in favor white people being treated as a protected interest group that ought to be able to govern itself, somewhat akin to our Indian Reservation system. But it goes further in that it says that this protected interest group should actually get to govern all of us, including the better educated, more diverse, and more numerous group.
The former argument is more advisory. It’s a warning to progressives that there’s natural backlash to trying to impose their version of reality on areas of the country that won’t accept it. It can help them understand why they’re losing political support (and elections) in so many communities around the country. It also is an argument in favor of at least some level of tolerance for political and cultural differences, and a reminder that our system of federalism accounts for this.
But the latter argument isn’t at all supportable, in my view. It’s one thing to recognize that self-determination is a principle that can operate within our borders (to some degree), but it is another to suggest that a minority of people should govern the rest of us (for whatever reasons).
You can call this white privilege, but it’s not quite that. It’s privilege for a minority of white voters who just happen to be less educated than the coalition of people who oppose them. There are millions of white voters who enjoy and support living in a pluralistic country, and they’re part of a numerically superior coalition of voters that turned out to support Barack Obama twice and to support Hillary Clinton.
You can apply the principle of one person, one vote, even though it doesn’t apply in our system both due to the makeup of the Senate (two votes per state irrespective of population) and the Electoral College. You can apply a more elitist standard that only better educated people should decide who will govern us. This was also part of the thinking of the Framers, both in terms of who they initially allowed to vote and how they envisioned the Electoral College working.
But it’s hard to see any justification for privileging a less educated minority of voters because it would be “colonialism” to allow their political opponents to have power.
“It’s a warning to progressives that there’s natural backlash to trying to impose their version of reality on areas of the country that won’t accept it.”
I’m glad you specified that you don’t accept the argument, Booman. Because the progressive version of reality includes FACTS. In the red areas, beliefs are as important as facts. Religious beliefs are MORE important than facts.
I keep seeing the phrase “we have to understand what the reasons behind the Trump votes were…”. No, we don’t. We know what they were. A blind reliance on beliefs that cannot be reversed by facts. You can’t argue with that. It’s insanity. And you won’t win arguing with insanity.
From what I know many progressive programs and ideals receive over 50% approval/support in polls. I think those who don’t support those ideals voted at a higher rate than those who do. And at a higher rate than they usually do.
If I recall correctly, the NYT had a graphic some weeks ahead of the election showing that white males were the single largest voting bloc but that only 50% of them were likely to vote. Spouse and I said right then and there that if Trump aroused the non-voters in this group enough to get out and vote, Hillary would lose.
A reason why Sanders’ favorable ratings were always over 50% and didn’t decline as more people became familiar with him. Unfortunately, there aren’t enough progressives in the Democratic party to him to win the nomination.
“I keep seeing the phrase “we have to understand what the reasons behind the Trump votes were…”. No, we don’t.”
I would quibble a little with this. There is likely some resentment in rural areas about what they perceive as favoritism to the cities and the steady loss of good paying jobs to trade. They may not be very logical on the whole but feelings count – at least to some extent. And I think we need to take it into account.
He didn’t say that he doesn’t accept that argument. he said that he doesn’t accept the argument that those people should rule over the more educated, more diverse people.
Hmm, wouldn’t worry. As public schools are made for-profits by both parties, the race to the bottom will reduce the population of adults that could pass a literacy test to a slim sliver of rainbow elites–our natural rulers. The cream always rises, isn’t that the rationale?
The replies to this thread should be very interesting.
The Guardian Berlin: at least nine dead after truck crashes into Christmas market Many people also left injured after vehicle runs into night market, in what is suspected to have been a deliberate attack Co-driver died in the crash and the driver is in custody.
The Guardian Russian ambassador to Turkey shot dead in Ankara art gallery . Twenty-two year old killer had been a riot police officer; special forces killed the killer at the scene.
Three injured in gun attack on Zurich mosque Two victims seriously injured. A body was found nearby. The shooter is unidentified and at large (assuming that he isn’t the body found nearby).
I would counter that the results were a reaction of uneven economic progress; mainly through poorly thought out trade policies, inattention, and the unwillingness to fight for the needed infrastructure/economic investment. And when it failed with the GOP Congress, the unwillingness to get down to the town and district level and directly point fingers at who denied them the new bridge, new highway, new factory.
Obama’s main failing has been the resolve for bi-partisanship and refusal to fight. To go to these states and have their local Congressman by his side so he can explain why he voted against their economic interests. Demand they be held accountable.
Woodrow Wilson tried it with the League of Nations treaty but had a stroke. I think Obama is in better health.
The WWC / “white privilege” stuff are just intellectually lazy explanations for a result based on decades of abandonment in these communities. So much so that any Democratic Party support has either aged out of the picture or been driven away by emphasis on …. take your pick.
How to get it back? Don’t depend on Trump imploding. I think its likely but not a realistic strategy for the future.
50 state strategy. Have money and offices active in each state and reporting from “on the ground”. Don’t write off any state. And listen to what they say. Culture and priorities will differ from Calif to NM to Wis to NC. But that is alright. Surveys are saying that many in those areas feel like a different culture is being imposed on them; with the Democratic Party as its leader.
Problem is, if they want to join the economic and cultural 21th century, they will have to change. And if offered a choice, they will pick their pocketbook. But is has to be their choice.
So what COMMON interests does the “flyover” part of the country share with the coasts and can the Democratic Party be an effective spokesman for those interests? On the local, state and Fed. level. When we start seeing those efforts, that’s when you will see a truly national party, not bicoastal.
Ridge
Might be a good idea not to totally enrage the center of the country when climate change is right on your doorsteps, Coastal US. You might need the real estate.
I’ve often wonder how mass refugees from the coastal regions going inland would alter the electoral process.
Well, the Dust Bowl migrations were instructive.
No kidding.
http://www.sfgate.com/weather/article/High-tides-overflowing-onto-streets-10799167.php
Some high tides are starting to flow over the Embarcadero in SF more regularly than in the past. I suspect it’s just going to get worse over time and possibly quickly.
We may all need to move futher inland.
Actually, there are of inland flood plains throughout the United States.
http://water.usgs.gov/edu/100yearflood-basic.html
And I will tell anyone that you don’t want to be living too close to a river or lake when you’re getting a couple months’ worth of rain dumped on you in a 24 hour period. Or to have that happen two or three times in the same year. None of us gets to escape the ravages of climate change. Plenty of us in the flyover states got record flooding last year and droughts this year. Old-timers where I live will still tell me that one day I’ll experience a normal year where I live. I’m not exactly counting on that.
This was perhaps not a serious comment, but climate problems may bee just as bad if not worse in the interior.
IMO, the Democratic party has studiously avoided doing one damn thing for preponderance of working people out there, and even less for the poor. And then they want to blame Putin for why these people voted for Trump.
I could go on, but I’ll stop.
Obama “fired” Howard Dean from the DNC and ultimately replaced him with the execrable Debbie Wasserman Schulz who was shown to be skeevy conniving festering creep by the DNC email hack, the veracity of which is not in question. Rather than blaming Putin for this hack, how ’bout the Democratic Party take responsibility for their actions for once and own up that they’ve basically ignored (or worse) the poor and what remains of the working and middle class in this country?
The 50 State Strategy is what got Obama in office, and as soon as he won, he couldn’t wait to dismantle that. We should all ask why. I don’t expect to see it come back, either. I guess our Oligarchs don’t like it.
I agree with you and Ridge. We need a party that works for the people. We already have one for the elites and their friends.
Tim Kaine was immediately after Dean and before DWS. Kaine and DWS were both failures at promoting the Democratic Party.
We can blame Putin for the hack and still recognize that it revealed important information to the American public. Life is complicated.
I see lots of posts on FB about ending the Electoral College which seems like a long shot. Wouldn’t an easier solution be to increase the size of the House?
That would also help us with Congress and be more representative of the country as a whole
Neither will happen with a Republican Congress.
And you won’t get a Democratic Congress without a humongous scandal which implicates the whole House/Senate GOP or you start rebuilding a Democratic Party in the states and start electing Democrats to Congress. Time consuming and hard work, but there it is.
R
How about if the Democratic Party actually tried to serve the needs of the “working man/woman” rather than suck up to the elites and the Oligarchs?
Possibly increasing the size of the House would get around some of the gerrymandering, which IS a problem. But when have we seen the Democratic Party big wigs get out of the comfie chairs and actually go out to talk to “we, the people”?? Hillary certainly couldn’t be bothered. She’d rather interface with rich Republican voters.
Obama never did find his comfie shoes to come out and fight for union rights, and as a consequence, we see many states becoming Right to Work states.
What has the Democratic done for YOU lately? They’ve done just about nothing for me.
We are “the Democrats” so if there’s something we’re missing then start building a coalition within the party to get it addressed.
For the record, the party platform does a lot of working people and has for a long while.
What has the Democratic Party done for me? As imperfect as the ACA is in practice, when some serious medical shit went down this year with my spouse, we didn’t have to worry about blowing through a lifetime cap in coverage, or her being denied coverage in the first place due to pre-existing conditions, etc. Instead, my spouse got necessary treatment, rehab, and follow up care. We didn’t have to worry about going bankrupt this year – and that would have left us practically homeless. So yeah. There is that and it’s good enough for me.
As you say Obamacare is a godsend and imperfect. It is a mixed bag of supporters and detractors. I wonder if derTrumpster will repeal it. But it needs to be reworked ,and IMO, with the idea that health care should be a human right and therefore universal. It should not allow bankruptcy for certain.
Health care as a human right – something I have always believed. The “let ’em die” approach that was the status quo prior to ACA is not acceptable. If I had my way, I’d suggest something more along the lines of our European or Canadian counterparts. Somehow inevitably I get called all sorts of nasty names for suggesting such a thing. And I’ll just keep persisting I guess. This is personal to me, given my own situation and given the situations a few of my friends are in. The personal notwithstanding, a core value for our party should be that of health care as a human right. Those of us who are at our moments of need deserve dignity and deserve care. We don’t deserve to be kicked to the curb because we’re deemed inconvenient to the profit margins of the corporations operating the hospitals, pharmaceuticals, and so on. If we as a party can’t even agree on that, we’re in trouble.
I begged the Democratic Senate candidate to campaign on this. Have people who saw a doctor for the first time in decades. Show people who themselves or relatives where severed by ACA. “And my opponent wants to take that away.” Didn’t have the guts and she lost.
ACA for all its flaws (which are many), more people got protection than they had for years.
R
I’ve said it before and will do so again. Hillary is the real reason she lost. We need to get back to our roots.
What does this effin’ mean? What are “our roots?” Jeffersonian agrarian policies? Jacksonian genocide? FDR policies that were enacted with the help of the Solid South?
Only one time in the past 8 times the party that has held the WH the previous 2 terms has been able to hold onto the Presidency. You think there might be other factors in play other just your pet theory that Clinton was “fill in the blank with your hyperbole.”
So many of you pine for a mythical past that was never as black and white as you have created in your mind’s eye. Clinton was in line with LBJ, Humphrey, Muskie, Carter, B. Clinton, Gore, and Obama as a national Democratic figure. She had flaws just like they did, but so many of us were not willing to carry water for the smears that were flung against those past leaders that we were more than willing to stay silent or parrot this past election cycle.
We will never have a perfect candidate. No matter who gets the nomination they will be flawed, no matter if it is your preferred candidate or not. The media will use false equivalency to make your candidate vulnerable to a pile of shit, if necessary. Many of you need to grow the fuck up and grow a god damn back bone. Remember the old maxim: lead, follow, or get out of the way. I woud add a corollary: shut the fuck up with your nonsense.
FDR had more than 70+ Democrats in the Senate in the first 6 years of his presidency and did not go below 64 until his 10th year in office. He never worked with a Dem minority in either House and had majorities as high has 332 Dems in the House his second term in office. There were 3 Dems for every Rep in that House basically.
Harry Truman never had more than 57 Dem senators and had to work with Dems being in the minority a few years.
JFK had 62-65 Democratic Senators and did very little honestly with it other than tax cuts for the wealthy, but we are never allowed to state that truth.
LBJ had 68 Dem Senators when he got most of his legislation passed. He never had less than 62 at any time during his presidency. He had 295 House Dems at his peak as well.
Bill Clinton had 258 House and 57 Senate Democrats for 2 years.
Barrack Obama had 57* (59 counting Lieberman and Sanders) for most of his first year and 58/60 for about 6 weeks. He had 258-253 for those first 2 years as well.
Clinton and Obama did what they could. I wished they would have done more than they did, but I wasn’t in their shoes, so they may have made the best they could do under the circumstances. Yet so many of you compare them to circumstances that were not comparable and find them lacking. They are the only candidates since LBJ to win more votes than the Republican by more than Hillary did. Carter didn’t quite get as big a popular vote lead over Ford as Hillary. Bill was able to win after 3 of the last 4 Dem nominees lost electoral landslides. No one ever grants that reality might have limited his options while in office.
Hillary won liberals by a higher percentage than Trump won conservatives, and she won moderates by 9%, but she lost the electoral college. That is the “real” reason she lost.
If the New Deal was so great, why were so many ready to return the Republican party to power a little over a decade after its creation? People had recovered from the Depresssion and wanted to return to their idea of normalcy and that was Republican rule, because that was what it had been before. This is a divided nation and has always been so. The few periods that might have seemed like consensus at the time were just blips in reality.
What does this effin’ mean? What are “our roots?” Jeffersonian agrarian policies? Jacksonian genocide? FDR policies that were enacted with the help of the Solid South?
Only one time in the past 8 times the party that has held the WH the previous 2 terms has been able to hold onto the Presidency. You think there might be other factors in play other just your pet theory that Clinton was “fill in the blank with your hyperbole.”
So many of you pine for a mythical past that was never as black and white as you have created in your mind’s eye. Clinton was in line with LBJ, Humphrey, Muskie, Carter, B. Clinton, Gore, and Obama as a national Democratic figure. She had flaws just like they did, but so many of us were not willing to carry water for the smears that were flung against those past leaders that we were more than willing to stay silent or parrot this past election cycle.
We will never have a perfect candidate. No matter who gets the nomination they will be flawed, no matter if it is your preferred candidate or not. The media will use false equivalency to make your candidate vulnerable to a pile of shit, if necessary. Many of you need to grow the fuck up and grow a god damn back bone. Remember the old maxim: lead, follow, or get out of the way. I woud add a corollary: shut the fuck up with your nonsense.
FDR had more than 70+ Democrats in the Senate in the first 6 years of his presidency and did not go below 64 until his 10th year in office. He never worked with a Dem minority in either House and had majorities as high has 332 Dems in the House his second term in office. There were 3 Dems for every Rep in that House basically.
Harry Truman never had more than 57 Dem senators and had to work with Dems being in the minority a few years.
JFK had 62-65 Democratic Senators and did very little honestly with it other than tax cuts for the wealthy, but we are never allowed to state that truth.
LBJ had 68 Dem Senators when he got most of his legislation passed. He never had less than 62 at any time during his presidency. He had 295 House Dems at his peak as well.
Bill Clinton had 258 House and 57 Senate Democrats for 2 years.
Barrack Obama had 57* (59 counting Lieberman and Sanders) for most of his first year and 58/60 for about 6 weeks. He had 258-253 for those first 2 years as well.
Clinton and Obama did what they could. I wished they would have done more than they did, but I wasn’t in their shoes, so they may have made the best they could do under the circumstances. Yet so many of you compare them to circumstances that were not comparable and find them lacking. They are the only candidates since LBJ to win more votes than the Republican by more than Hillary did. Carter didn’t quite get as big a popular vote lead over Ford as Hillary. Bill was able to win after 3 of the last 4 Dem nominees lost electoral landslides. No one ever grants that reality.
Hillary won liberals by a higher percentage than Trump won conservatives, and she won moderates by 9%, but she lost
If the New Deal was so great, why were so many ready to return the Republican party to power a little over a decade after its creation? People had recovered from the Depresssion and wanted to return to their idea of normalcy and that was Republican rule, because that was what it had been before. This is a divided nation and has always been so. The few periods that might have seemed like consensus at the time were just blips in reality.
You are quite correct in you history analysis, but the problem with the recitation of past Democratic Presidents is that NONE had the negative popular numbers that HRC had. NONE. She was a poison pill before the first primary vote but because the “machine” had lined up the money and super delegates before anyone else had a chance; she was it.
OK, shows her organizational skills.
But as was apparent from the financial and popular appeal of a much less well known political figure, she had real trouble.
Add to it the fact that she missed the national mood in 2008 and seemed tone deaf to it in 2016.
While she had accomplishments, popular electioneering does not appear to be one of them.
R
This is your daily reminder that Clinton won the popular vote by near 2.9 million votes.
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She lost here
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Her popular vote totals were concentrated in safe states she expected to win. That’s nice. But she lost states she thought she should win; and in other places her margins were smaller. And what everyone forgets is that a Presidential election is 50 state elections. So While her numbers were great on the East and West Coast, she lost 3 critical states; Penn, Wis, and Mich.
I went through the Va numbers. She won and increased Obama’s margin, but the whole increase was from the DC suburbs. She went below Obama’s # in much more of the state. And some of that can be extrapolated to the rest of the country.
Why? That is what the DNC and all progressives need to understand to go forward. I have my theories, some have others. The cheap and lazy thing to say is “racism, ignorance, misogyny”. Makes you feel good about yourself, but does nothing to advance progressive policies in the future.
R
And then there is poor understanding of the national mood.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/12/20/team-bernie-hillary-fucking-ignored-us-in-swing-sta
tes.html
Of course I said none of those three things, and it is telling that you would include them. I simply stated a fact, that she won the popular vote by near 2.9 million.
This election was close. When an election is this close there can be several reasons why a candidate loses. People have a tendency to project their own biases on results. It’s just my perception, and I could be wrong, but the reasons you seemed to have chosen is ‘Clinton lost because she sucks, and she insulted white people.’ I find that telling, also.
My opinion can be best summed up by a better writer than l. Stated here at Lawyers, Guns, and Money
No candidate is perfect. They all have flaws. But Clinton DID win the popular vote by near 2.9 votes.
“You are not as bad as you look when losing, and not as good as you look while winning.”
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I didn’t mean to imply that your said that and if you took it that way, I’m sorry. I was referring to the general “you”; as in a majority of posters at various progressive sites who can’t understand the loss; so they blame the voters and apply negative characteristics. Because it can’t be the candidate’s fault, in whom they invested so much time and emotion (if only online). If the candidate was a fault, their judgement was faulty.
That gets a little too close to introspection and reality based analysis. Mustn’t do that.
And as I have said, she lost the popular vote in the states that mattered. She won the battle but lost the war. The why is what should be discovered and corrected. The Daily Beast article linked above has some answers, but probably not all.
R
Kos has up a new map of congressional districts that split their votes at the top of the ticket. Appears that Chuck Schumer’s Republicans mostly came from California, so far.
The map is incomplete, but already (if I interpret it correctly)looks like HRC picked up districts in states that were safe and Trump picked up districts in states he needed (Wis) and NJ district across the border from Penn.(same media market). Looks like the one area that was a plus was Northern Va and some of those 196,000 Hillary voters in Fairfax county were probably Republican.
R
Yep, those “moderate” crossovers have a distribution problem that makes them useless for EC purposes. Maybe they got Va with them…https:/www.jacobinmag.com/2016/11/clinton-election-polls-white-workers-firewall
There is a national constituency for corporate centrism, but it’s numerous and it’s not strategically located. MA, NY, CA, MD, and IL are not battleground states.
it’s NOT very numerous
At your recommendation (even though I would have preferred not to go there), I took a look at the map.
One thing popped out for me:
I took at look at that CD either before or after the CA primary. Wish I’d done a diary on what I found. Recall that I considered using it for part of a larger diary that I ended up junking because the interest in options for political engagement after the primaries other than pushing the Clinton rock up the hill seemed low and I wasn’t up to being a target for more flak (even though the option could have helped Clinton). Anyway, there was a D candidate in the primary, Lou Vince, that the HRC camp (for lack of any other description) attacked unmercifully and unfairly. Vince is far from perfect, but that’s not what generated the attacks. He was a Bernie supporter. The HRC camp backed a carpetbagging attorney. Not a DINO and with some progressive leanings, but wouldn’t have made it through the primary without the HRC bucks and Vince smear-job; so, I do have difficulty with candidates that don’t reject campaign “dirty tricks.”
No guesswork required to project the outcome of the primary. It would be the GOP incumbent and the carpetbagger. Don’t know if the HRC camp preferred a general election loss for this house seat over a possible “Berniecrat” win or if they’re politically naive and incapable of analyzing available facts. As no guesswork was required to project the general election results between the GOP incumbent and the carpetbagger: 53.1 to 46.9 respectively. Only slightly off from the 2014 results: non-incumbent GOP 53.3% to non-incumbent Dem 46.7%.
Bear in mind that the GOP incumbent is, to be charitable, a real lightweight. His only strength is that he plays okay enough with the center/eastern demographics of the district and it’s the center/eastern portion of the district that is decisive in general elections. Vince was like a perfect candidate to eat into that center/eastern GOP strength. But westside “liberals” had a better idea; let’s nominate another guaranteed loser.
Sounds like my viewing of the Va Democratic Party and the Southside of the state. They keep putting up UVa professors or Albemarle Gentlemen farmers against moderate (comparative) Republicans, when there is a lot of potential with all the textile industry gone.
But Hey!, they take tea with the Democratic Committee in Charlottesville drawing rooms; so they must be OK.
R
This part of Lemieux’s writing at the LGM link you provide boils it down nicely, I think:
“The effect of yadda-yaddaying the media’s malpractice, Wikileaks, and a rogue FBI is both to normalize Trump and to make Trumps more likely in the future. That Clinton’s campaign, like all campaigns, made mistakes is worthy of discussion but is also entirely immaterial to this question.”
So, so true.
I wonder how a Hillary-hating, WikiLeaks-loving Frog Ponder would feel if:
Perhaps, like the spare Republicans who have become sympathetic to LGBT rights because one of their children is out, the Wikileaks-lover would develop a different view about this extreme danger to democratic governance and a decent society. Because the election of Trump and his extraordinarily hostile staff appointments/Cabinet nominations/Twitter attacks/rally statements haven’t been enough to draw reconsiderations from some of them.
All this makes me cringe on what Trump will get his hands on. This might be the way the US picks it’s winners from now on. With media help, and ‘progressives’ chasing every shiny penny.
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Also, thanks for reading it.
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She failed in the thirteen swing states.
She had a 4.3 million majority in California.
And those votes shouldn’t count?
You mean like bailing out the auto industry or expanding medicaid?
Or the EITC expansion or the minimum wage increases or Dodd/Frank or the CFPB or ARRA or overtime expansion or cracking down on wage theft or reclassifying franchise employment or…
OK, that was worth it.
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Short story on Medicaid and et.al.
Some people in Kentucky are upset about the two tiered system of Obamacare and the expense of it. Marcy referenced this in an article on emptywheel.
The subtext of that article is;
White People Are Incredibly Obtuse
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Yes. This is the state that elected a Gov. who campaigned on the promise of dismantling kynect. To quote C. Pierce “I empathize with them but I do not understand them.”
But as the article suggests the people who voted for Trump don’t actually expect him to repeal Obamacare. I guess you need faith.
But you need to ask if something can be done to reduce the dissent. If many white people are that way, and you choose to ignore them, then your politics could flounder. And that article does point to real problems like narrow networks and expensive premiums and deductibles. And those costs are increasing. Complacency here will lead to failure.
They haven’t been ignored. Much has been done for them and more would have if not for republican stonewalling on both the state and federal levels.
I doubt they,would vote for Trump if they didn’t feel ignored, would,they?
Given that they previously elected a gov. who campaigned on taking away their health care, I’m going with “yes.”
You may find this interesting.
::SIGH::
Yes, I’ve read that.
You cannot ‘fix’ something by destroying it. That is what they voted for.
And you cannot appeal to people who want to kill their neighbors cow.
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If you mean those people in Kentucky., they,don’t believe Trump will do what he says. Faith you know. And I think what they really want is a better system with lower cost and more,access. I said before health care should be a human right and it should be universal. Until we get there a for profit system that keeps getting more expensive and excludes or seems more favorable to some will have more than a healthy number of detractors. Who knows where we go from here.
Agree that healthcare is a universal human right, but I think the people in the article would also like for the lower income people to NOT have access to health care. You know, the “cadillac driving, t-bone eating, flat panel having,” non-working poor.
That could be right. You know the lazy asses don’t deserve it. But I also think politics can be used to bridge those gaps. We need leaders here.
There is no ‘bridging the gap’ unless you give them something that they really want…..
which in the democrats case is throwing their base to the wolves.
I swear, it’s like some people here don’t actually speak to people who vote republican. My hobby and work involves me being surrounded by them. Not one, absolutely not one has expressed the economic anxiety I keep hearing about. Every single one has a expressed a version of this;
‘Man, the liberals sure are upset about the election!’
Or
‘Finally! Someone to put libtards in their place!’
The bigger the group of them speaking together, the blunter they get.
Davis Ex Machina sums it up perfectly,
‘He hates the same people I hate, gimme the damn ballot’
Putting economic anxiety on these people is pure projection. It’s putting commenters motivations on republicans. That was/is Obama’s true weakness. He’s a good man, with a good wife. So he believes republican politicians are good men, with good wives. He’s wrong. They are evil haters, who want to see people beg.
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Bingo!
Thank you.
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=
“What has the Democratic done for YOU lately? They’ve done just about nothing for me.”=
==Prevented to GOPers from privatizing Medicare and Social Security. Increased environmental regulations. Stopped the GOP from giving federal lands to the states. Given over 20 million people health insurance. Strengthen regulation on Wall Street. Helped support organized labor. Etc.
To what? It seems weird that the house could be more functional if you require more people to agree on something.
like our Congress is functional now
there are currently tens of thousands of unelected staffers who make a lot of decisions that Congresspeople should be doing but can’t because the size of districts are too big to manage.
Originally the largest district would only contain 30,000 people. I don’t think that’s the answer but doubling the size of the House wouldn’t be unreasonable.
Even when the Constitution was being framed, the Southern, rural plantation states realized that the Northern states were already economically, socially and demographically more dynamic than the South and so, yes, the EC and the Senate were constructed to permanently bias the elected part of the federal government (except for the HOR) towards rural, small population states.
As young populations continue to move to regions of the country that are economically, socially and culturally more dynamic and away from the economically stagnant, intolerant and poorly educated parts, this structural bias will continue to exacerbate regional differences and to cause even more political conflict. At some point, continuing to “be patient” is just going to lead to a more fundamental breakdown of the State.
The population of states in 1790 was:
Maine 96.560
New Hampshire 141,885
Vermont 85,425
Massachusetts 378,787
Rhode Island 68,825
Connecticut 237,946
New York 340,120
New Jersey 184,139
Pennsylvania 434,373
Delaware 59,096
Maryland 319,728
Virginia 691,737
North Carolina 393,751
South Carolina 249,073
Georgia 82,548
Yes, those population numbers for slave states probably are the total populations of all people. The political calculus does apply the 3/5ths rule that inflates political power in the allocation of the Senate and Electoral College based on the proportion of slaves.
The folks advocating for small states equality crossed regional lines. Small New England states were as interested in an equal number of Senators and the Electoral College as were slave states like Georgia, Maryland, and Delaware.
Economic stagnation had more to do with the basis of the local economy than cultural development and education. And your narrative does not account for various waves of immigrants that landed in cities and then fanned out in successive waves across the country, more in the northern states than the southern.
In fact, the bias toward rural, small population states was early on not sufficient for their interests to be represented. The real emerging division was between the states that had the political benefits of large numbers of slaves and those that did not.
Remember when you are talking about rural, small population states, you are primarily these days talking about the Mountain West states of Idaho, Wyoming, Utah, New Mexico, and Nevada, and the Great Plains states of North Dakota, South Dakota, Nebraska, Kansas, and Iowa. That’s a total of 47 electoral votes. And in the East, there are Arkansas, Mississippi, West Virginia, Delaware, District of Columbia, Rhode Island, New Hamphire, Vermont, and Maine. Tell me which of these are less culturally dynamic an economically stagnant and intolerant.
I think that Texas is a huge counterexample (or is it?)
It’s all very interesting this notion of states imposing colonialism on the rest of the country. It certainly didn’t stop the cultural imperialism of New York City and Los Angeles during the golden age or radio and the golden age of television. Mass media was strengthening America in a time of competition with the Russians in the Cold War and gathering an anti-Communist (always cap-C) majority.
But in the age of narrowcasting, ClearChannel, FoxNews, Sinclair Network, and the failure of CurrentTV, not to mention the extensive religious broadcasting empires from CBN (Pat Robertson) to the next wanna-be evangelist on the internet, we certainly don’t want the unifying and centralizing cultural power we used to accord Ed Sullivan, Walter Kronkite, and Chet Huntley/David Brinkley. Those new media outlets are profitable to the extent that they depart from the national consensus. And Breitbart as a news source just ups the amount of toxins to sound government in the information space.
Of course, those media don’t want equal access to information to take away their very profitable audience. It has taken millions or billions of dollars in investment to create such a pliable, gullible audience. Of course, truth be told, the American mass audience during the Cold War was equally uneducated and gullible. But there were those on the air, those that almost everyone saw, who worked to get at the truth. It is not for nothing that Edward R. Murrow is a heroic historical figure in American culture.
I really don’t think it is solely a matter of less education. There are a lot of Ivy Leaguers, privileged flacks, and second- or third-generation fascists, right-wingers, segregationists, and neo-Confederates who have become embedded in the major media and are now surfacing with their specious arguments serving their political agenda. Do not forget that Bob Jones University has run a media school for over 50 years, and that religious and conservative media companies of all kinds hire from there.
Or that working hours is small towns often have the radio on full time, and the radio that used to be local now is owned by one of the politicized billionaires who are inexplicably running a multi-million-dollar network at a loss.
Of course, it’s not totally white privivlege; white privilege is the sales pitch to the locals. Forty years ago, the same radios would be tuned to diverse styles of popular music. Multicultural popular music. With no whining about “Happy Holidays”.
The sleight-of-hand in the argument about California colonialism and its source in Michael Barrone is a clue as to who is actually engaged in a form of colonialism. And who is going to benefit from what it does to the economies of those poor suffering cultural backwater colonies.
Don’t mistake white conservative shuck and jive for a serious argument.
“It certainly didn’t stop the cultural imperialism of New York City and Los Angeles during the golden age or radio and the golden age of television. ”
This was shown to me when I began listening to Smith’s “Anthology of American Folk Music” from the 1950’s. Recordings from the 1920s-1930 demonstrated the vast and vibrant regionalism from what’s called, “Old, Weird America” That all died with the spread of national radio networks; then TV.
But even with the tremendous differences in the regions, FDR used the national medium to spread and reinforce common American values; culminating with his 1941 State of the Union 4 Freedoms speech.
What I want to see is, beginning in Jan., the DNC go out to each of the states they lost and find out why. Every one. Not in the state capital, but “up country”. Not Focus groups but sitting in a diner and talking to people. Is it the policies? Do the voters even know what the Democratic Party supported, outside the extreme positions trumpeted on Fox and the 3 tier radio talk shows. If not, why? Was it the candidate? What was it?
I tend to think many of the positions are popular, but were not articulated effectively by a very flawed candidate. As the strategy was to basically ignore the “flyover” and rely on the coasts with a couple of states thrown in; they have no reason to know what the Democratic Party wanted to do for the country.
You make the point about local stations being outlets for big, politicized networks…and I hear it. I would also point out there is a near underground network feeding into the worst fears of evangelical pastors and self taught preachers. Before the Internet, short wave radio, mailers, tapes, video and preachers buying late night time on cable. Now, web sites which you or I have never heard of. But the word goes out and you hear the same slander from different mouths.
Those folks may not say things from the pulpit, but certainly around town. They have to be countered as well; or have people around to argue against.
R
> white people with below-average education, should not be governed by a diverse group of better-educated people.
It doesn’t matter the color of the people. It only matters the smarts.
Governing is not for dimwits, although too late for that.
Dean Obeidallah got it right on Joy-Ann Reid’s show over the weekend. What’s missing is critical thinking.
You cannot get to critical thinking by wandering around the swamps shooting at ducks.
This is why the original system specified that only landowners could vote. Sounds elitist, but the concern was that the rest of the population could not be trusted to understand what’s going on beyond the swamp. We just proved them right.
Dean suggested that that we make college education free for all, in hopes of a more enlightened electorate.
‘Tis a nice thought, but i wouldn’t hold my breath. People need to value such opportunity, sign up for it, engage it, and get through it.
Watching folks at Trump rallies … i don’t think they’re ready. Maybe a few generations down the road … maybe not.
Dimwits are running the show now, and they prefer the easy way out … strong-talking republicans … despite decades of the latter picking the pockets of the former.
Like i said, dimwits.
Not all problems have solutions.
Training in critical thinking really needs to be happening earlier than at the college level. I had grandparents who either never completed high school or just barely got their diplomas (the Depression was responsible for a lot of that) who could think circles around Comrade Donny and his followers. Beyond that, critical thinking needs to be modeled in public forums, including what passes for our news channels these days. What folks see currently is a “split scream” format where the guests and hosts vent their spleens, and little else occurs. Not holding out a lot of hope on that changing though – the “split scream” is too profitable. I’m all for free college. Don’t get me wrong. I worry that educators and staff at that level would end up spending most of their time undoing the damage that has already been done (and that is often an exercise in futility). Wish I could be less pessimistic.
Not to mention the “Christian” colleges that would devote large swaths of their efforts to reinforcing the damage already done.
. . . scream”(which is not to say that the rest isn’t also good stuff!).
This is the first US presidential election since 1872 with more than one “faithless elector.”
Hillary lost more electors than Trump.
You must be so happy.
And I thought you were a good person. Instead your just another hater of blue-collar white people.
Heh. You spew bile and vitriol with a fire hose and then whine when a tiny droplet blows back on you?
Red this http://caucus99percent.com/content/going-crazily-quiet-night and consider what your goddess hath wrought.
Unfortunately in this instance and that I’ve pointed out in more detail below, you were the first to “spew bile” in this sub-thread. And your bile is rewarded with upratings from the resident troll ratings abusers. Not something to be proud of.
This is a problem. One that has been endlessly repeated here for the past year and a half.
Voice made a simple statement of fact. Then you jumped in and asserted a psychological state as the reason why Voice would make a statement of fact with the clear intent to besmirch Voice. You have no idea as to Voice’s motivation for posting the fact and offered no personal opinion on the fact. The only thing that others can infer from a posting of fact is that the writer found it of interest and shared it for others to do with as they want.
Why did you find it necessary to denigrate Voice for posting a fact? The fact did illustrate that the multiple discussions and hopes of many here that the EC would dump Trump were irrational pipe dreams. But that’s my take and one that I can’t ascribe to Voice from his comment.
This type of interchange here is also frequently followed up by the resident troll rating abusers, and then whether intended or not, preempts support from others for the original comment because then the single troll rating gets elevated and counts.
In the past I always read and appreciated your comments. That changed some time ago, and apparently with the election now over, you remain in attack mode against anyone that wasn’t with HER and in no way contributed to her loss. In my state (CA), Clinton won by 4.3 million votes (0.3 million more than Obama’s CA ’12 vote margin), and in Voice’s state (IL), Clinton’s margin was 0.945 million votes compared with Obama’s ’12 vote margin of 0.885 million. OTOH, in your state (CT) Clinton’s vote margin was 0.225 million compared with Obama’s 0.270 million. Heh — so perhaps authentic criticism of HRC was more effective in increasing her vote than bashing those that dared to criticize her.
btw – Voice did vote for Duckworth while at least 78 thousand of your fellow travelers, HRC voters, either declined to vote in the senate race or voted for Kirk. Maybe you should spend less time bashing those to your left that don’t conform to your position and more time looking right at those that would vote for Clinton-Kirk or Clinton-Johnson (in WI). You know, the “conserva-dems” that bolt unless the Democratic nominee is like a Lieberman.
Heh. Pretty rich, coming from the person who screamed “Fuck you!” at another poster here, and who demanded said poster stop replying to her comments, and who scattered such endearments as “Hillbot” and “Hillfan” liberally throughout her attacks on other posters, and who never missed an opportunity to derail yet another unrelated thread into more Clinton and neoliberal-bashing, and who regularly engaged in the very same disingenuous sorts of arguments she accused others of using.
Also, you don’t even have my home state correct.
Snort.
jan, I used to like you until you refused to help me distribute republican memes!
Some advice jan, take it with the proper intent.
YouTube
.
But is it (i.e., a minority)? [Sincere question, I don’t know. Are there data to resolve this?]
It’s not self-evident to me that the rest of that can’t be true unless the highlighted bit is true.
Here is a pretty good break down.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/09/behind-trumps-victory-divisions-by-race-gender-educa
tion/
The message I’m getting from all this is that a lot of white people are not privileged and a lot of white people have received very little, and/or very poor, education.
I mean, we all know that a lot of non-white people are not privileged and very poorly educated, and we recognize that’s a problem for them and for the country.
How many people think these white people don’t deserve anything better because they ARE privileged and it’s their own fault if they’re not getting jobs on Wall Street, etc.?
Maybe they don’t even want jobs on Wall Street. If not, that’s good because most of those young Ivy-Leaguers going into finance are pricks.
Abyway if you do think that, you’re part of the problem. You don’t even have to like these people, you just have to recognize that it’s a big problem. Proof: it just gave us the Trumpster.
What is your answer?
I grew up in the heartland. If there are no jobs, in the past people went to where the jobs were. That is why there were ghost towns and boom and bust economies. If the circumstances change and your refuse to readjust, at what point do you have to take responsibility?
My father went to college and made something of himself and kept moving to become more financially secure. Most of the rest of his family did not do that and are more financially insecure, but by no means hurting. Most of them voted for Trump. Many of them get government payments. Some get tens of thousands of dollars in farm subsidies per year. Many of them are in good financial shape as far as I can tell, yet they constantly complain about others getting more government help than they do.
If people are are unwilling to take risks, chances, and relocate at what point are their problems as much their own making as much as leaders failing them? When others in the same circumstances were more successful, because they did something as opposed to complain and wait for something to happen to them. When that failed to pan out, then play the victim. Luck is involved, but resistance to adapt is a real problem with too many of these voters.
“My father went to college and made something of himself ” You despise your grandfathers? You think they were nothing?
Merely the arrogance of those born into some level of privilege that they somehow construe as an accomplish of their own and therefore, are entitled to look down on those that didn’t accomplish enough for their children to inherit privilege.
I wrote about luck, but you had to disappear that to pretend to make your umpteenth erroneous point.
Explain the thought process behind what I wrote, “My father went to college and made something of himself,” to you leaping to your invalid assumptions. Perhaps there is a breadkdown in your critical thinking that can be corrected.
Here is a clue, I wrote nothing about my grandfathers. You have no idea if either went to college. You have no idea of their education level whatsoever, nor their economic status (not that it has any instrinsic value on my estimation), let alone my thoughts on them.
What I actually wrote was HOW HE views himself in relation to his immediate family and extended family of cousins and in-laws, not how I nor anyone else might view his actions. Basically, there were four paths to these children of the Great Plains: college, city manufacturing jobs, city service jobs, and farming, with some military experience for about half. He could be mistaken or he could be accurate in his self assessment. Doesn’t make your contention any closer to the truth.
Yet you make a sweeping generalizations based on your faulty premise.
“Made something of himself” implies he would have been nothing otherwise. It further implies his parents were nothing otherwise he would have already been something. Why was college a factor? IIRC Henry Ford didn’t go to college and declared bankruptcy three or four times. He wasn’t a nice man, but he was far from nothing.
Basic education in civics and humanities (which go together) is sorely lacking in American primary and secondary education. Good citizenship requires good education. The amount and kind of education necessary to be a responsible citizen in a democracy should be acquired before college, so that those who don’t go to college can be responsible citizens.
Besides, many who do go to college go into specialized technical subjects where they are not going to get this kind of education anyway. One can only hope they have enough required humanities courses, which I know many of them enjoy and get a lot out of.
Even with all that, faced with a choice like we had this year, two of the least popular candidates that have ever run, it was very hard to see what was the right thing to do.
A lot of highly educated people show poor judgment as well. Hillary Clinton was nominated essentially because it was “her turn”, but if more encompassing reason had prevailed (and it wasn’t that hard to see, if you wanted to see it), she was a very, very risky choice, especially for 2016. And events have borne that out.
How do you fund the basic civics, education etc.? Kansas used to have an outstanding public education system when I attended and my parents and grandparents attended as well. Since then there have been cuts and Brownback has been draconian in his education budgets. Many schools and systems are being underfunded, if not shut down completely.
Many of the people I am talking about were beneficiaries of that solid educational system, but have been brainwashed to a certain degree by 3 decades of RW Talk Radio and 2 decades of Fox. Even some of them were not interested outside of certain subjects like Math. I have a few extended family members that have careers based in the insurance and computer industries, but they have never had any interest in current affairs nor politics.
I won’t go into detail about your election analysis about HRC, other to state I think it is hindsight bias Obama was a very risky choice in 2008, as was Bill Clinton in 1992, Jimmy Carter in 1976, and JFK. Clinton had larger popular vote wins than the last two.
Not to nitpick but in 2008 we were on the verge of a depression and then there was Sarah Palin. The others you named have similar circumstance.
What I said about Hillary Clinton is definitely NOT hindsight. I was appalled when I found out she was running again, and I never saw any reason to change my mind, other than the universal misleading polls that prevailed when the only possible alternative was Donald Trump. This is not hindsight, but a confirmation of everything I foresaw from the beginning.
It’s confirmation bias, not hindsight bias.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias