The talk of Calexit right now might seem still at the level of fringe grumbling, but one in three Californians support it, and the first stage has been OK’d for the 2018 ballot. The Civil War demonstrated that secession is impossible without cooperation of the national government. What if such cooperation were provided? In fact, what if the national government were the primary impetus? Keep in mind that Trump has already threatened to defund Berkeley over rioters closing down Milo’s speech, and California over its sanctuary status.
Why would Trump want California to secede? With Trump, it is always wise to look for the pettiest, stupidest, and most spiteful explanation available. Trump’s loss of the popular vote is clearly eating him, and with California out of the picture, he can honestly say he is governing a country where he won the majority of the popular vote.
There is also the Russian vote. The leader of the Calexit movement has been linked to Russia. He even lives there. So a powerful covert Trump constituency is already pushing this. We should keep in mind that from Russia’s perspective, Trump is in part payback for Yeltsin, who oversaw the disintegration of what had been the Soviet Union, and even some of what had been Russia before that. Russian interference in our election is trivial compared to our intervention in Yeltsin’s.
It would be very hard to let California secede, or to push it to, without the cooperation of the Republican Party, however, Why would they do it? Trump is already at record disapproval for a new President. The Republicans can see that this is their big and probably their last chance to gut entitlements. They’re going to go for it. Actually gutting Obamacare will be politically costly, but they’re committed to that too. Given those two things, can they retain power in two years? Maybe. The map does favor them. In four years? If the country is still democratic at all, they will be in very bad shape, not because of demographics, but because their President and their own actions will be deeply unpopular.
What happens if you take California out of the picture?
Trump’s electoral victory would have been 306 to 177, almost 2 to 1.
Clinton could have won every swing state and still lost.
The Republican 247 to 188 majority in the House – a margin of 29 – becomes 233 to 150 – a margin of 42.
The picture is even worse if Oregon and Washington go too, and they, particularly Washington, have also been openly feuding with Trump.
How could this happen?
Gov. Brown is going to seek $182 million is federal emergency aid for flooding. The media itself is saying Trump’s approval is in doubt, because he has already threatened to defund California. And we already saw in the aftermath of Sandy that Republicans will play petty politics with emergency relief.
Of course, $182 million is well under 1% of California’s budget. Denying that would not actually be devastating to the state. But Oroville is not out of the woods. In case you hadn’t heard, yesterday local authorities announced that the Oroville dam, the highest in the nation, was likely to break and evacuated the area. Luckily, the dam did not break, but it has been weakened and it looks like another solid week of rain starting Wednesday. If, God forbid, the dam goes, the bill skyrockets. Luckily, most have already been evacuated and hopefully will stay that way. As well as Oroville, two of the three large towns in the area – Yuba City and Marysville – and several smaller ones would be mostly destroyed (the third large town, Chico, is North of the dam). Now we’re well into the billions.
What if Trump refuses to pay for that?
The optics are horrible, of course. Not as bad as Katrina, because people will not be abandoned in the ruins, and most have gotten out in time. But Bush did not deny relief to New Orleans either. Trump’s tolerance for bad optics is spectacular though. The bitter irony is that the three counties that would be most affected by failure of the Oroville dam – Butte, Sutter, and Yuba – all went for Trump. These may be Californians, but they are white rural Californians, largely farmers. Trump supporters all over the country will see themselves in these people. Will Trump care? Does he ever?
I have heard many Californians snort at the threats of defunding, saying we contribute more to federal coffers than we receive. This is true, but that linkage is not automatic. You must make it. Just because Trump cuts off federal dollars for one purpose or another does not remove your legal obligation to pay your income tax.
If Trump starts defunding – especially if he refuses to fund emergency recovery in a spectacular case like a dam failure, but under any circumstances – will people start refusing to pay their federal income taxes? I bet so. Not everyone, of course, but significant numbers. Will they also refuse to pay state? A lot less philosophically defensible under the circumstances, but it will be easier to get away with refusing federal taxes if you don’t file at all. Will the state continue to cooperate with the feds by sharing information? There are many ways things can go from here, but if people start refusing to pay taxes in significant numbers because the federal government is discriminating against California and denying it needed emergency aid, we have already moved a considerable way towards national disintegration.
It would also have to end up in court. The Supreme Court would have to decide that people still have to pay federal income tax even if the federal government is withholding money to punish the state for not using state resources to enforce federal law, a constitutional right. I think the court would choose to compel allocation of the money, but I don’t know if they constitutionally can. Spending is clearly out of their purview.
We are now in completely uncharted territory. Keep in mind what losing California would do for Republican electoral prospects. And it may not be just California. The Pacific Northwest is also being very defiant of Trump. They could go too. More good blue riddance.
Of course, the Republicans would rather not do it over a dam breaking over rural whites. Defunding Berkeley sounded a lot more fun. There are many ways the defunding threat could play out. Emergency aid is a good opportunity, because Trump could just veto the bill, the Republicans don’t have to refuse to pass it. Of course, the Democrats should rightly pressure them to override the veto, but that would mean civil war in their party. Who knows what they would do?
Also, once secession seems likely, the big sort will go into overdrive. Conservatives or those for whom secession is just too scary will flee to the United States. Liberals and Progressive will flee to California to avoid being condemned to a purely red America. More people will come to California than leave it because that flow will be coming from the whole country. That flow will skew young and educated. and It will skew non-white, though it will probably be difficult for most of the poor to come. This will leave rump America worse off, with an older and somewhat less educated population.
Of course, the logistics of secession seem impossible. The infrastructure, the legal systems, the communications, the companies, all are integrated across the country. Would California inherit 10% of the national debt? Of the military? Will it inherit part of America’s international role and treaty obligations? Can it generate a viable national government quickly? (The US will want to keep Silicon Valley, but the Valley probably would rather stay with California, particularly if Seattle comes too. It’s easy to say don’t give them a choice, but it is hard to take by force an industry whose power is largely brain power and established network effects. You would disrupt the networks and have a hard time corralling the brains).The whole thing is inconceivable. Yet, the disintegration of the Soviet Union was as well, a few years before it occurred. Russia may enjoy showing us what is possible in this area, as we showed it to them.
Personally, I would bet on secession becoming a serious topic of discussion, but not happening. Big business does not want this, and they have a way of getting what they want. But I bet against Trump becoming President too.
I’m in California and consider this idea completely ridiculous.
i don’t even think it’s serious enough to need rebutting, but I’ll offer these comments
1 – unless Colorado, Utah, Nevada and Arizona move with us, CA loses Colorado River water
2 – the U.S. Navy is NOT going to give up its biggest pacific coast bases, so the portion that could secede starts north of Camp Pendleton.
3 – it’s a shitty thing to do to the rest of the US since it basically concedes the federal govt to Republicans forever.
The entire current political situation is completely ridiculous. Practicality is not the governing force. I’m not saying it will happen, I’m saying we will see efforts towards this from Trump and Russia.
yeah, to stick with your original question: sure the Russians would want it, it would weaken the U.S. and even talking about it seriously would be a distraction.
Does Trump want it? Trump wants something for 5 minutes and then wants something else.
A few weeks ago I received an email from my area Democrats asking if I was able/interested in getting active (going to protests, calling senators, reps, etc…). I was, and am, but I also made it abundantly clear to them that as far as I could tell the only solution was for the 2012 blue states (the last legitimate election) should secede from the United States, preferably to merge with Canada, but otherwise to form a new country.
It is one thing that we have different opinions or points of view than the GOP, but Republicans have become diametrically opposed to everything that Dems believe in – and refuse to even consider any form of compromise. Worse, they actually see us as the enemy.
So why the hell are we even bothering with these folks?
Blue States are stuck in an abusive relationship and we keep telling ourselves that it’s going to get better, and yet it keeps getting worse-and-worse.
But hey, if 50% of all marriages end in divorce, then why can’t our nation?
I agree, it’s extremely difficult, would raise millions of questions and issues, and would require easements, trade agreements, etc…but barring some major shift in policy or opinions on the right (or a complete surrender on the left) is there any real alternative?
>> is there any real alternative?
i can’t see secession as a real alternative. I think the federal govt will do like Abe Lincoln did and slap this nonsense down. As they should.
Yes right now we have Trump who reacts instead of thinking, and he might initially say “go and good riddance”, but then the complications would catch up with us.
The only legal way that I see happening is a Constitutional Amendment. Unilateral exit was settled 150 years ago.
Did you read the post? The whole premise is pushed from the top (and the side, i.e., Russia), though there is also Californian support. That’s hardly unilateral.
Sorry. Didn’t mean to sound snippy. You may just be thinking about legalisms, although I actually don’t think the civil war as such settles it legally, as the South fired the first shots, so the position of the North is that it was responding to aggression, not just enforcing union. Also, I don’t know that a war outcome creates law as such. However, I agree we are talking about a Constitutional amendment.
Wars have settled more law than judges IMHO.
“I got mine, fuck you”.
Brilliant reason to start the next civil war.
Although, as a CaliforniaFirstTM member, you can drop the whole pretense of being an actual progressive/liberal who wants to change society for the better.
So, there’s that I guess.
Hate to break it to you, but the Civil War has already started. Those of us on the left are protesting in an attempt to keep our nation together, the folks on the right seem perfectly fine with us leaving if we’re not going to get in line.
http://www.joemygod.com/2017/02/17/radio-shrieker-michael-savage-calls-armed-militia-march-home-sen-
chuck-schumer-audio/
So, the people who want California to secede are on the right and welcome a chance to murder “others” currently fraudulently d/b/a “real Americans”?
Yeah, sounds about right to me, too!
Protip: I’ve seen this American civil war coming for pretty much my entire political life. At times, when slightly younger, I welcomed the breakup of the US Empire, as I’ve found it to be one of the most inherent evils in the world. And other “leftists” who were more farsighted have pointed out to me that as a rule, almost every single revolution/rebellion/civil war ends with lots of people dying, and with the right wing in control, as they are apt to be much more “ends justifies means” than lefties who have a whole lot of special interest minority groups to defend in the process of taking violent control of a government apparatus.
So, while the part of me that is white, male, and in a very safe medical profession knows that I’ll probably be OK if/when some type of civil war/genocide breaks out, the progressive/socialist part of me knows better.
I essentially look upon the CalExitWooHoo!!!TM segment of the population as TExItTM lunatics…where I kinda hope they leave, and at the same time balance it with the fact that it will, as a matter of reality, lead to a violent civil war. And funny enough, even though I’m in the red state South, I’d end up being in the Union Army this time around.
So, in regards to the ongoing civil war, it is purely political right now, and the mature, farsighted version of myself wants to keep it so, as in the long term liberalism has always won and will continue to win. It’s the shortsighted, “fuck everyone else, I’ll be OK” version of myself that I attempt to keep in check, because I god damn know better.
Even with Strongman Trump in the White House, there are enough US institutions that are “resisting” in the way that shows that they are worth maintaining, even though they obviously need reforming. I can still parse through CNN, CBS, NBC, ABC, etc, to get a relatively decent picture of objective, observable reality, especially considering that there is an entire 3rd party media that is independent and competent in reporting the news with cogent analysis, to use as a filter for the “mainstream media” that is clearly BothSidesDoItTM.
The people who want California to secede…or Texas, or Alabama, or whichever state, believe that it’s all fucking broken. Which it isn’t, which is why any type of Constitutional Convention that may pop up in the next decade or so is essentially a coup d’etat as real as a bunch of military generals taking control of the government.
Strongman Trump isn’t competent enough to destroy the US, although he can definitely break a whole lot of shit. I don’t think progressives should swing wrecking bars alongside Strongman Trump simply because, “hey, it’s all broken anyway”! Because it isn’t, and won’t be, if we don’t pick up the wrecking bars too.
I no longer share your optimism that this will all get worked out at the polls because Americans will get fed-up with their elected officials and suddenly have a conscience. If we’ve learned anything from the past 6 years its that the GOP completely owns the election process, they will continue to find new and innovative ways to win (read: steal) elections and gain more and more power.
Again, I go back to my original point: the GOP does not even bother trying to find any sort of compromise with Democrats any more. We’re not dealing with folks who ultimately want the same thing but just have different ways of achieving the goals, we’re dealing with Fucking Fascists. I’ve been saying it for the past 6 years and have asked my wife with increasing seriousness about whether we (as Pennsylvanians) want to live in the north with my parents or the south with hers.
Its completely naive to think that the CIA/FBI/DOJ, etc… will somehow save us from the fascist regime that has taken over all of DC, 25 of the states, and is spreading throughout the fucking world.
At this risk of sounding like Arthur Gilroy, there has to be a “WTFU” moment where everyone realizes that the norms of democracy are completely out the window. We need to fight back, preferably in a peaceful way, but if we need to have a bloody revolution in order to protect democracy then so be it. You and I both have white privilege on our side, but millions of others do not and we have a collective obligation to do all that we can to help and protect their rights and the rights of their children.
Check out this website and look at the shift of power in the past 6 years – its terrifying: https://ballotpedia.org/Gubernatorial_and_legislative_party_control_of_state_government
I hope-and-pray that Comey et al will grow a pair and impeach Trump, preferably taking Pence with him. I hope-and-pray that another charismatic leader like Obama or Bernie can unify the left-and-center so that we can again be the grown-ups in the room, but it’s going to take a lot of pain (likely economic) for folks to realize just how good things are under Dems. And I don’t think for one second that the White Supremacists, Christian Fundamentalists, and Fascists are suddenly going to roll over and hand back control. Remember: We knit hats, they bring guns.
We need to fight just as fiercely and as dirty as the Republicans do, and if that means the blue states have to threaten to secede, then so be it. The difference is that if the Red States hate the Blue States so much, then why would they care if we liberals left the country?
Again, we knit hats, they bring guns: https:/www.thetrace.org/2017/02/donald-trump-counter-resistance-nra-wayne-lapierre
And if they don’t bring guns, they just arrest the protesters:
http://azcapitoltimes.com/news/2017/02/22/arizona-senate-crackdown-on-protests/
We’re not dealing with normal people that are willing to compromise: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/feb/23/north-carolina-islamophobia-muslims-threats
I find the comments about seceded states merging with Canada to be bizarre. The State of California alone has a larger population than Canada. And though I like to joke that Canada is a sane version of the US, there are actually significant cultural differences between the US and anglophone Canada. Seceded US states wouldn’t be absorbed; they would come to dominate the Canadian confederation. As for francophone Canada, do you think those folks would want to go from being a 20 percent minority to something like 5 percent?
I expect Canadians would look at a dissolving American union with dismay, not as a growth opportunity.
I actually don’t know how Canadians would react. Adding California would be good for their economy, but Canada would not longer be Canada.
Booman Tribune ~ Does Trump (and Russia) Want California to Secede?
Going by European experiences this would be my answers.
National debt? No, unless there is a deal between US and California (national debt is just a debt the government owns to its central bank via the banks anyway, so its not like it matters). When California prints physical and digital California Dollars (or whatever they may be called) and sends them into circulation the amount will be entered into the logs as Californias national debt.
Military? The military as such is federal and would remain with the US. National guard are state level, right? So California would keep that. But that is just military as such, bases stay were they are, military personel might decide to join California or not. How about nukes? The Soviet exampel says nukes belongs to the US but as I recall it took some time before the nukes were gathered.
Will it inherit part of America’s international role and treaty obligations? No, unless it is a signatory (and I don’t think it is). For example, Ukraine SSR was a member of the UN from its foundation even as part of the USSR. After the dissolution of USSR, Ukraine simply changed its name and retained its seat. Estonia wasn’t a member (though USSR was), so Estonia had to apply for membership.
Can it generate a viable national government quickly? Yes, it has a constitution, a state government that would become a national government, a police and military (National guard) under state control, can provide banking oversight to establish a system of payments etc etc. California is much better equipped then some states that has managed independence.
But the crucial question in this day and age is: Can it quickly establish trade relations to maintain its place in the global chains of production?
And the answer is (judging by Britain), no it can not. Britain has a better position in that it can hand in its exit notice and then has two years to get its affairs in order. That looks like to little, so corporations that depends on global production lines are leaving. California is in a worse position as it starts more from scratch then Britain, and that will severly affect the economy of the new state.
I’m assuming these things would be negotiated, so what you’re saying are the default answers. For example, I assume the Republicans would demand California assume some of the debt, although possibly not if California wanted part of the military.
The national debt is the amount owed on Treasury bills to whoever has them. Due to quantitative easing, the Fed has printed money to buy a lot of them – about 4.5 trillion, I believe – so that is money owed to the Fed, which is to say , not real debt. The rest is real debt though.
Why would California need a military?
To protect themselves from Texas!
OK, humor aside, that fat bastard in North Korea keeps threatening to missile the West Coast and recently Russia resumed bomber flights to the West coast, although I think they break off after cruising past Alaska and Washington.
I don’t know if Russia is still doing this. They resumed during one of the Putin/Obama cat fights.
Wouldn’t California be protected by the Monroe doctrine?
In principle, but I wouldn’t trust Trump to feel bound by it.