Greg Sargent poses a hypothetical that isn’t really hypothetical at all:
Because Trump is undermining our democratic norms and processes in so many ways, it is often easy to focus on each of them in isolation, rather than as part of the same larger story. But, taken together, they point to a possible climax in which Trump, cornered by revelations unearthed by Robert S. Mueller III’s probe and by ongoing media scrutiny, seeks to rally his supporters behind the idea that this outcome represents not the imposition of accountability by functioning civic institutions, but rather an effort to steal the election from him — and from them.
This isn’t a “possible” outcome. It’s already happened. Last Thursday, Trump made an appearance in West Virginia at what amounted to a campaign rally. He told the assembled audience:
“They can’t beat us at the voting booths, so they’re trying to cheat you out of the future and the future that you want. They’re trying to cheat you out of the leadership you want with a fake story that is demeaning to all of us, and most importantly, demeaning to our country and demeaning to our Constitution.”
But, here’s the thing. What are we supposed to do about it?
Back down?
Tell Mueller to lay off and for the media to lay down?
If Trump is forced to resign or impeached and convicted, there will be a lot of Americans who are angry about it and that believe it amounts to an unconstitutional coup. So what?
Will these people be a problem? I imagine that some of them will be. I can foresee some civil unrest, even some violence. But it’s not like we should be intimidated. And what can we do about it anyway?
This isn’t a time for handwringing or cowardice, and I don’t see why it matters that Trump is going to make this as painful as possible. Of course he is.
What matters is whether this country still has enough of a pulse and enough self-respect to take care of the problem we have in the White House. Pretty much nothing else matters at all.
A F’ing men.
Different century.
Not just Trump
https:/www.creators.com/read/pat-buchanan/08/17/after-the-coup-what-then
https:
http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2017/08/07/the-swamp-will-do-whatever-it-takes-to-remove-trump
Exactly. Trump is a one trick pony — it’s all he’s ever had — and he hit its peak at his inauguration. He’s down to 37% and that’s the best he can do even if he holds five rallies as long as he doesn’t have a specific individual challenger.
Yeah, and if he is removed from office, a decade later you won’t find anyone outside of a klan rally who admits to having voted for him. Whether the process results in impeachment or simply paralyzes his administration, it achieves a positive result.
One of the interesting aspects of our time is that many will not be able to deny. People are on facebook and twitter largely under their own names. They can delete that stuff, but actually making it disappear from the Internet entirely, especially someone is interested in saving it, is quite difficult. This, too, could be a problem. We want to make it easy, not difficult, for Trump supporters to turn on him and giving them a path to pretending they never supported him would make that easier for them, though it is a bit irksome.
I’ve been saying all along that removal of Trump will bring massive unrest and violence. No, that doesn’t mean we should back down. It actually is proof we need to go on, not because the violence is tolerable, but because it is not tolerable to have a man in the White House who will inflame such violence.
But as this drags on, the scale of the likely violence descends. True, a lot of people are sticking with Trump, but at this point, it looks more like stubbornness and a refusal to admit there were not just wrong but catastrophically wrong. That is not the attitude that will make you pick up your gun; it is the attitude that will give you another grievance to nurse for decades.
I think he still needs to be beaten down further before he can be safely taken or (preferably) driven out of office. In fact, I don’t think he can be “safely” taken, but the likely magnitude of the damage is trending downward.
The people who voted for Trump were not ‘wrong’ they didn’t make a ‘mistake.’ They are as reprehensible as he is. And their pattern of preferences are Bush II, Palin, Trump, not to mention all the jackass governors and senators they elect.
They are stupid people with bad intent and small hateful minds.
I don’t know how to reach them. And if we had a true democracy I wouldn’t even try.
Trump is going nowhere before 2021 unless he decides he wants to. And frankly the only way I see him leaving is not to save his own skin but to save Don, Jr, Kushner, and/or Ivanka.
He’s impervious to any norms, civility, honor or sense of obligation to the country. He can’t be shamed. And in that sense he’s exactly like the Republican base, McConnell, and Ryan.
The weak points are putting Trump’s kids in jail, exposing the Russian corruption of our election environment, and putting pressure on those few Republicans who retain any traces of a public conscience. The last one is a real long shot. And if they retain the House and their Senate majority (very likely) their will be no conscience left.
What are the practical signs of a “pulse and self-respect”? Is allowing Mueller’s investigation to unfold on its merits sufficient?
What exactly does “take care of the problem we have in the White House” look like beyond the forced retirement from office of Donald S. Trump?
There are some serious corruption and institutional issues that have allowed several departures from the pulse and self-respect to occur over the past 50 years, and they have not been self-correcting. What will it take institutionally to to right the processes this time?
You write:
Blockquote>What will it take institutionally to right the processes this time?
What exactly do you mean, “this time,” Tarheel?
Really.
I cannot remember when said processes were ever “right.” Not on any moral level that I understand, anyway. They were “right” in terms of the Deep State, from the assassination years right on through to today. But “right” on any kind of long term, karmic level?
Not a chance.
The U.S. has more blood on its hands from the early ’60s right on through to today than any other state in the world. By a landslide. Its internal “processes” have been in place simply to continue…and mask whenever possible…this one, mortal truth.
Everything else is simply more false news.
AG
dontsayafkenewsdontsayfakenewsdontsayfakenews…
“false news”
nailed it!
for a while now.
It’s glaring, in fact.
Round Two:
How Mueller conducts himself in establishing the evidence will affect how it is received.
How straightforward journalists cover the story will affect how it is received.
The nature of the evidence will affect how its received.
Those will determine the size of Trump’s following of him out of Hamelin.
Trump has got to go, preferably to jail. And we will deal with the aftermath whatever it brings.
Couldn’t agree more. These people already believe too many lies for their perceived grievances to be given any legitimacy. And if Trump rallies them to prevent being held accountable for crimes he gets indicted for or convicted of, then let them face the majority in this country who truly do live in the real world and have the faculties to understand the Constitution and how it will have been proven to have been violated by Trump et al. If it comes to that.
I am sick and tired of the country being held hostage by these hateful, ignorant people. And I’m sick and tired of the media treating them as if the lies they believe are legitimate, simply because they believe them.
I predict a whole lot of gum flapping and little else.
Practically all of Twitler’s followers are chickenshit chest thumpers, and the few that might be prone to, say, truck bomb the FBI headquarters are a) probably more engaged in what’s actually going on and b) therefore probably disappointed about what a half-wit Dolt45 has turned out to be.
That seems most likely. A lot of angry talk and nothing else. The few stupid enough to try anything will get to find out just how wonderful our supermax prisons are.
They’ve been telegraphing their intentions for a while. And you’re right, all the Facebook posts, NRA ads, etc, threatening violence against us. It’s meant to intimidate because they view themselves as “tough guys” and all liberals as wimpy, latte-sipping hipsters.
But we have to continue to push to do what’s right and prepare for the violent backlash.
You hit a home run with this one, BooMan
I agree 100%.
Take gun safety courses and prepare to fight because you want the authorities to stay out since most of the military and police are for Trump.
Are we really going to remove Trump? A better question is “do we want to?” Better an ineffective President Trump spending all his time fighting off criminal investigations into the family business, than President Pence!
I don’t see this as a bad thing. True, he’s horribly stupid and arrogant, but name one way in which Mike Pence would be better!
I can’t think of a thing. He’s only considered sane by comparison with Trump. In any other administration, he’d be considered a complete extremist of the crackpot variety, not someone to take seriously.
On the other hand, I can’t see Pence demanding that his generals drop a few nukes on North Korea.
TBD if Trump would issue such an order (and of more importance is whether the generals would follow such an order).
But I take your point, difficult to see Pence crudely threaten a country with nukes. However, it’s not an unprecedented threat from a President. And a few likely considered the option.
Fox Business:
CNN Politics
NBC News – U.S. May Begin Airstrikes Against ISIS in Philippines
Presumably with the approval of the Duterte (one of Trump’s few fanboys; other than Macron).
This is tough to game out. Too many “what ifs” and “if/then” nodes from here to ousting Trump.
One thing Democrats should think seriously about is the day after. After a period of high WH and/or Congressional drama, a majority of the not-strictly partisan electorate prefers a return to calm, measured, dignified. (That was a factor in the 2012 presidential election.) As an unelected Gerald Ford took over a WH that was in shambles (and after the ’74 midterms, the GOP held 144 House seats and 38 Senate seats) and within two years, Mr. “can’t walk and chew gum at the same time” stabilized the public perception of the WH enough that he only lost the popular vote by 2.1% and did better in the EC than Hillary Clinton did.
Pence isn’t brighter than Ford was and while he’s definitely nuttier, he also much slicker. He deftly handled Kaine in the VP debate. And he’ll continue to sidestep the Trump goo. With the advantage of incumbency for fifteen months or more, completely plausible that Pence could win in 2020. And that’s scary.
Ha — and to think that I made that comment before seeing What to Make of the Mike Pence 2020 Rumors or the NYTimes article it is based on.
At this point in Nixon’s second term, Ford was merely a long-term House Rep. He may have had a fantasy about one day running for President (probably few in Congress that don’t), but that would have been the extent of it.