The best argument for Nancy Pelosi keeping her position as the leader of the House Democrats is that she’s good at the job. She’s not perfect. She’s an awkward public speaker, for one thing. For another, the Republicans have spent so much time and money demonizing her that she’s become a divisive figure. She’s also seventy-eight years old, which is not a problem in itself but perhaps not ideal for connecting with the up and coming generations. But, in most ways, she’s extremely effective and knows how to fulfill the various roles that are expected of a leader. Her track record as Speaker is almost wholly positive, and she can raise money like a true professional.
In other words, the problems with Pelosi are much more about who she is, where’s she from, and what she symbolizes than with her ability and fitness. You can make an argument that the Democrats shouldn’t be led by a San Francisco liberal or by someone of such advanced age or that it would resonate better to have someone of color or from a more rural district. But these ideas are premised on the idea that it matters less how good a person is at a job than that their mere presence in the job sends the right kinds of messages.
Regardless, she will become the next Speaker of the House if the Democrats win the midterms by a wide margin and she will not if the Democrats win narrowly or (obviously) if they do not win. There are enough sitting Democrats on the record that they won’t vote for her that when combined with candidates who’ve made the same promise it’s easy to predict that she’d lose her bid in a closely divided House.
Here’s what I find interesting:
Younger House incumbents are quietly making the case for a bolder choice, and using Pelosi’s own words as part of the argument that standard seniority rules shouldn’t apply, even though Steny Hoyer has been doggedly and desperately waiting his turn for 15 years. “Nancy has been very clear in saying to all of us, ‘If I go from leadership, then Steny and [Jim] Clyburn should go too,’” a junior Democrat says. “And there is an emerging generation, the class that came into the House in 2012.”
I think the point Pelosi is making is that if she needs to go for generational reasons then it wouldn’t make sense to replace her with one of her top deputies. Jim Clyburn will also be seventy-eight next January and Steny Hoyer will be seventy-nine. If she goes, then all of them should go to be replaced with an entirely new leadership team.
That’s not a particularly loyal argument to make and I can only imagine how it is received by Steny Hoyer, but it makes a lot of sense. If the decision isn’t about merit but only symbolism, then she shouldn’t get tossed aside in favor of someone who is the same age. On the other hand, if Steny Hoyer is the best person for the job, then there’s an argument that he should be her replacement.
I guess what I’m saying is that a political party shouldn’t pick their leader based on symbolism. At some point, Pelosi may find that she’s no longer up to the rigors of the job. No one can fault her for that, since aging doesn’t discriminate. But if you want to send a message that you’re inclusive or a big tent party, you can do that in other ways. The most important thing for the leader is that they know what they’re doing, and that’s one thing you can say for certain about Nancy Pelosi.
I agree. Pelosi has gotten a lot of undeserved blame. She is good at what she does. People around the country are not going to vote for or against Democratic candidates based on who the Dem majority leader will be if they win a majority.
If Pelosi didn’t get the job, it would almost certainly go to Hoyer. He has a lot of support in the caucus (he ran a fairly close contest against Pelosi a few years back) and nobody’s taking “I won’t support Hoyer” oaths. It’s not like Tim Ryan could come anywhere close to beating him.
I did not realize that the pledges against Nancy were adding up to keep her out of the leadership. But I think she deserves to be there and in fact NEEDS to be there during the remainder of Trump’s term.
We do not need switch horses at a time when knowing how to use the majority and actually scrambling to get (or hold!) the votes is critical to getting Trump out of office in 2020 (if not sooner.
Pelosi is the best speaker in several generations, and for sure in my lifetime. Full stop. Whoever comes next will be demonized no matter what, or another person who is prominent will take that place (especially if they are women or POC). The latest races have also shown that the anti-Pelosi adds seem to have become less effective at turning out Republicans so I say fuck it. Let’s go, bring the outrage out the once and future Speaker of the House!
I did not realize that the pledges against Nancy were adding up to keep her out of the leadership.
Given that the buck stops with her re: the DCCC one has to ask how she’s screwed that up so bad. What good is raising money if you’re not winning elections? Why does she always put idiot hacks in charge of the DCCC? And Boo should know how incompetent the DCCC is given their actions in his district 2 and 4 years ago.
We Democrats do see a wee bit too inclined to judge our politicians on their intentions rather than their track record of increasing the party’s power.
She hasn’t exactly done a bang-up job of increasing the party’s power, has she.
The best argument for Nancy Pelosi keeping her position as the leader of the House Democrats is that she’s good at the job.
What job is that? Would the GOP put up with someone who has been the Minority Leader in the House for 8 years with out getting them appreciably closer to regaining the majority? The only good argument for Pelosi keeping her position is that Steny Hoyer would get it otherwise. And he’s an odious piece of crap.
“What job is that?”
Counting votes, keeping her caucus in line, and unified. She’s very good at that. You want her gone. Fine. Who ya got instead?
So much this. Pelosi is going to go down in history for her work as a majority and minority leader. What else you got?
Pelosi is going to go down in history for her work as a majority and minority leader.
LOL!! She’s in history as the first woman Speaker. No one gives a shit about who was Minority Leader.
We’ve never had a better house leader, in the majority or the minority.
This. So much this. She knows how to count votes, keep her caucus together. She got the ACA thru. We need her to do this job that she’s good at doing.
She’s also one of the most liberal congress members by DW-Nominate. We’re far more likely to do worse than better by replacing her.
Counting votes and keeping her caucus in line are great, but under Pelosi’s leadership we lost a massive number of seats. It’s like saying that a surgeon is great because she works well with the team and has a lovely bedside manner, even though she keeps losing patients. Maybe nobody else could’ve saved them! But after enough deaths on the table, you might consider switching surgeons, no?
As for ‘who else?’, that’s part of the problem. Whose job is it to build a farm team, to develop the next generation of leadership?
She’s great at the parts of the jobs she’s great at, and she always struck me as a genuinely lovely and likable person. But would you say she’s been successful in terms of increasing–or even maintaining–our party’s power? Maybe nobody else would’ve done better! Maybe we’re living in the best of all possible worlds. But we’re not conservatives, we don’t cling to what didn’t work in the past. We try new things when the old ways aren’t working … don’t we?
In a plague year, all the doctors morbidity-and-mortality numbers look bad.
Are we that helpless against them? Is there nothing we can do (other, of course, than to win back the dirty hippies via the judicious application of punching)?
I know you think that any criticism of the Democrats is the equivalent of Stalinism, or Trotskyism, or some Soviet-based zingerism, and yeah, the FBI and the NYT and the purist libtards for once didn’t fall into line to assure our victory, but have you seen our opponents? We’re not losing to the plague. We’re losing to toenail fungus.
The democrats passed the ACA with eyes wide open, fully aware that they were going to suffer electorally as a consequence, at least in the short term. And they did it thanks to Pelosi’s leadership. Without her pushing the issue we might have held on to more seats at the expense of yet another complete failure to improve heath care in America.
I’m not arguing that she’s some kind of abysmal failure who never achieved anything. (Though I’m not convinced that no other Democratic Speaker could’ve passed the ACA.) I’m just saying that, on balance, there’s a real argument against her record.
Yes, we passed the ACA. We also lost 65 seats in the House. I’m not convinced that a different Democratic Speaker could’ve saved all those seats! But all we have is actual facts, not imaginary counterfactuals.
Maybe you think the ACA was worth those losses. Reasonable people disagree! (Though I keenly remember–at least on Daily Kos–the tingly expectation that we’d gain electorally from the ACA.)
Which different democratic speaker? You have someone in mind?
I hear good things about Johnny Unbeatable™.
. . . the serial sexual-harasser/abuser-pundits of the “liberal” [HAHAHAHAHA!!!!] Worse-Than-Useless-Corporate-Media — who and which helped Putin install Trump in the WH by their misconduct — was one I had not noticed. Great link (just finally got around to clicking and reading it).
Still don’t get the “Johnny Unbeatable” reference, though.
Weirdly, it’s like you can’t actually see these words, but for the third time:
Whose job is it to develop the next generation of alternatives to our elderly leadership? Blog commenters? Or the leadership itself? The fact that we can’t think of a dozen alternatives strikes me as a pretty damning indictment.
I don’t understand why you’re blaming Pelosi when the blame belongs on Obama. For being a black man.
We all know that that’s what drove the Tea Party. BHO enacted a centrist plan to forestall The Second Great Depression, and fucking got called a communist. We all know what that’s about.
Zing! You really told me!
I think the ability of the speaker to influence election results via his/her limited role on the DCCC and as the “voice” of the party in the chamber is ludicrously exaggerated. I care about the person being good at the actual job they hold, rather than serving as a scapegoat for events outside of their control.
Actually, you have it backwards. It’s “she’s great at the surgery, but has a shitty bedside manner.” I’d argue that the surgery is what’s important. I’m way open to new blood tho. There’s over thirty comments on this post and not one of them puts forward an alternative.
Maybe we’re disagreeing about the main thrust of the job? If success is measured in terms of ‘counting votes,’ then yes, she’s done a terrific job. If success is measured in terms of ‘increasing the party’s majority’ or ‘protecting the party’s majority’ or ‘not suffering massive reversals,’ then perhaps not so much?
Which is probably a stand-in for a larger issue that might divide progressives. Some of us seem to think that pursuing good governance and sensible policy is sufficient. Others seem to prioritize pursuing political hegemony and control of the levers of political power.
And–again–whose job is it to develop the next generation of alternatives to our elderly leadership? Blog commenters? Or the leadership itself? The fact that we can’t think of a dozen alternatives strikes me as a pretty damning indictment.
I agree! She has urban ethnic working class roots and she’s tough as nails. Ditching her would be a cave-in to GOP demonization campaign.
This is also true: “Steny Hoyer would get it otherwise. And he’s an odious piece of crap.”
Really?
So was John Gotti!!!
She is the inheritor of a Baltimore political dynasty that was predicated upon old-line, gangster-dominated, ward-heeler, segregationist politics!!!
PLEASE!!!
WTFU!!!
She’s been wrong all the way down the line.
Wrong on 9/11.
Wrong on the Iraq War.
Wrong on the selling of the U.S. working class down the river to the globalist corporate powers.
Wrong on HRC.
Wrong, wrong, WRONG!!!
And you defend her!!!???
This crap on a blog that advertises itself as a “progressive community!!!???”
Unbelievable!!!
But…sadly…true.
And to top it all off…the potential 40% or so of the U.S. electorate that damned well understands this idea on some level(s) and simply refuses to vote for either side of the UniParty hack system will continue to refuse to vote for a Pelosi/Schumer/Clinton-backed set of candidates no matter how odious the RatPublican and/or Trumpist opposition may be!!!
Great work.
Keep it up.
Trump is just the tip of the potential Satanist iceberg.
Six sevenths of it remains submerged, just waiting to Titanic the U.S. into total disaster.
WTFU!!!
AG
ag also insanely, irrationally HATES Pelosi!
Hmmmmm.
Gosh, what shared trait (or lack thereof!!!) of these two liberal/liberalish politicians could possibly evoke such Reality-Estranged animus in ag?
[ . . . thinking . . . thinking . . . thinking . . . ]
Oh, yeah, must be that they’re both Dems, right? (Just kidding!)
Does ag habitually comment while drunk on too much Counterpunch? Cuz that would explain a lot. Not everything, by a long shot. But a lot. (Along with that trait shared/lacked by Clinton and Pelosi hinted at above.)
It is not about them both being Dems.
It is about them both being wrong regarding the future welfare of this country.
As were Obama and Clinton, just for starters.
Booman compliments Nancy Pelosi, saying that she is at least reasonably good at her job. He’s right, only he misunderstands her job. Her “job”…as is the job today of almost every major politician in both parties…is to work as hard as she possibly can for her particular gang of thieves. She carries on that familial responsibility as first established by her father, the crooked mayor of Baltimore and also by her brother, another crooked, racist Baltimore mayor. She’s simply moved up in the world.
And yes, I “hate” these thieves. They have damaged my country and the lives of every honest, hard-working human being in it, myself included.
People may laugh and accuse me of being drunk, (
Counter)punchdrunk, stoned and/or naive all they want. I do not give a fuck, and I am stone-cold sober on every level. I believe in a morally-based politics, like the kind successfully practiced by FDR. What we have in this country today is simply a kakistocracy. As Casey Stengel used to say, “You could look it up.” Of course FDR made his compromises, but they were always aimed at a higher morality.People are encouraged by the corporate-owned media to worry about artificial intelligence taking over from humanity. This is laughable, just another clickbait/fake news angle. Why? Because it has already done so, that’s why. Corporations are artificial intelligences…a hive mind acting purely in the pursuit of profit and power. Pelosi and the rest of the Dems…just exactly like the most powerful members of the so-called “opposition party”…are owned and operated legislative hustlers for gigantic corporate entities. All the rest of their duties are simply aimed at quieting the masses. They are the embodiment of HRC’s “public/private” gaffe in front of a bunch of kakistocrats from Wall Street. With the exception of Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren I see no other Dems of any national standing who are not controlled by the same forces.
I have a strong historical bond to this country, and to New York City as well. The founders of the two U.S. lines of my own family both came here to escape problems…one an Italian (the first historically recognized Italian in New Amsterdam) in the 1630s, the other escaping from the Irish “troubles” 200 years later. I chose as my career to specialize in the highest American musical art forms and remain in NYC where they first developed as true “art.” (See Fletcher Henderson and Duke Ellington for all you need to know on that account.) I sing the praises of all who have come here…or been dragged here in chains…and struggled to survive and prosper, and yes, I have a visceral hatred for those who try to steal that set of accomplishments away., and for all of their supporters as well.
You don’t like it?
Lump it.
AG
“just kidding” re: the salient resemblance being “both Dems”.
Unsurprising you couldn’t keep up. Neither reading comprehension nor discernment is your forte. Cf. your credulity towards Counterpunch.
Resulting in yet another unresponsive “response” from you that pointlessly drones on, interminably flogging pet theories, but almost entirely off-topic.
Here, I’ll try to dumb it down for you: what’s insane and irrational about your white-hot hatred for both Clinton and Pelosi is its insane, irrational disproportion to any actual crime, sin, or flaw of/by either; in concert with your relative indifference to orders-of-magnitude worse crimes, sins, and flaws of those actually wielding power currently. In fact it’s indistinguishable from the blind hatred instilled in the rightwingnuts through decades of hanging out in the rightwing-media fever swamps, with utter gullibility for ginned-up fake “scandals”.
So, since it’s clearly not anything they’ve actually said or done that fuels your insane, irrational hatred, one is left looking elsewhere for the Ockham’s Razor explanation for it, thusly:
You write:
and:
What “shgared traits?”These, among many other examples:
We came; we saw; he died.
And:
Leaked Speech Excerpts Show a Hillary Clinton at Ease With Wall Street
She is a lying, laughing sociopath. So is Pelpsi.
You’re OK with that?
Interesting.
Then what do you have against Trump?
The only differences between the threew…as far as can see, anyway…are that:
1- They (
supposedly) belong to different parties.and
2-They are (
apparently) of different sexes. (I use the word “apparently” because in the system I studied, there are at the very least 7 sexes, and they often overlap in the middle.)So it goes…
ASG
P.S. I suppose you could say the same thing about political parties.(And posters on leftimess blogs as well.)
Who/what are you, oaguabonita?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Bet on it.
If you ever figure it out, you’ll be cursing yourself and calling yourself an idiot for not getting it, it’s so obvious — though not, of course, doing so “out loud” here.
Hint2. See Hint1:
Hint3: “trait”, not “traits”. Pluralizing it is (one of) your mistake(s).
I don’t discount Nancy Pelosi’s ability to overcome the grumbling and keep her job. She is tougher than most men, a true leader, transcends her age and gender, and is better at that position than most have ever been. She has kept the Dems in line this whole time; kept them from making a lot of bone-headed mistakes in response to the current administration. And yes, voters don’t give a rip who is Speaker until the Speaker makes news like Gingrich did. She’s too savvy, and has held up admirably under the constant barrage of trolling from the Rs. They only go after her because she’s good at her job. I’m all for her as the next Speaker.
Her failure to call upon us to expropriate the expropriators is a deal-breaker, the sort of deal-breaker that can only be compensated for by being from Vermont.
(The Speaker need not be an actual House Member…)
I will withhold my support until she publicly explains, in detail, her email protocols.
.
“Impeachmenet is off the table.”
She gonna say that one again?
The last Speaker who obtained an impeachment, without a conviction in the Senate, was out of a job three months later.
The Charge of the Light Brigade is a good poem, and a bad tactics manual.
If the democrats were to replace her with a white male at this time, with what’s going on, it would send entirely the wrong message.
.
Just another way that Democrats are different than Republicans in an ineffective way.
In the last 50 years how many Republicans have run against their own speaker/ likely speaker?
The not so subtle messages Democrats send when they do this and appoint Republicans to the daddy jobs in Democratic administrations are:
When combined with the McGovern/Carter experiences, it’s easy to see that even the Democrats think their own party is weak.
Hopefully, the circumstances for the midterms won’t make this flaw matter. But it’s a real, as well as a perception, problem for the Democrats.
How often do former speakers become speakers again? Sam Rayburn was the last almost 60 years ago. Before that it was the 19th century.
These would be reasonable arguments for/against Pelosi in normal times, but these aren’t normal times. If Mueller concludes that Trump has engaged in impeachable offences, we need a Speaker who is broadly regarded as a national leader. If Pence is implicated in the campaign’s illegal gains, then the issue of succession comes into play. Democrats should be asking ourselves who as Speaker has broad appeal as a statesman or woman.
Whom Democrats would choose to be the Speaker is very much an issue in these midterms, and will make our gaining the majority and the idea of impeaching Trump/Pence more or less palatable.
Pelosi isn’t the right leader for the times. We should be thinking outside the box.
The Speaker need not be an actual sitting member of the House. He or she could be a popular TV show host, or a junior senator from Vermont, for example.
That would be so cool….
Like the two-term presidential limit that was only customary before FDR, there really should be a respectable age limit on leadership, not representing your district or state or serving on the Sulreme Court.
75 seems pretty reasonable to me. Right now there are too many old people sticking around too long. Biden, Sanders, Pelosi, Clinton, Trump, Feinstein, etc. And even though he’s the best, Jerry Brown.
Two problems this creates:
Making Biden the VP wasted a spot. Brown is occupying the nation’s most powerful governorship for too many terms. With another, younger, properly mentored Democrat (not Newsome).
With a younger Democrat being a national figure as CA guv or VO we might have had a better choice than Bernie or Hillary in the last cycle.
Logan’s Run had it right.
Merits of Pelosi herself aside, there would be a certain benefit in Democrats showing the spine to not abandon a major party figure just because the other side said nasty things about her.
Yes indeed. Pelosi has been demonized by republicans to the extent that “Nancy Pelosi” has become a prefix for negative descriptors of democrats and democratic policies, or anything that doesn’t align with generally unpopular conservative social policies. They’ve succeeded at this because democrats have conceded control of narratives to the GOP, allowing them to define democratic leaders. For example before Pelosi there was “Ted Kennedy.” The GOP have gotten away with successfully reducing democratic leaders to caricatures.
While I do believe Pelosi is due some accountability as a leader for 2016, dumping her just so the GOP can’t run against her is a fool’s errand because they’ll just pick someone else — Hillary!, Bill Clinton!, Obama! The right will just find another “Pelosi” and get away with it as long as dems don’t push back.
If democrats don’t embrace and defend their leaders and their accomplishments, who will? And if they won’t, why should voters?
Which ‘other side’? Left, or right?
“from a more rural district”
Jesus H Christ, the San Francisco MSA is only the eleventh largest. Over 25% of all Americans live in a more urban area than San Francisco. The cities are already ridiculously under-represented because of the electoral college and the Senate. Now you’re saying that no one from anywhere bigger than Paduca can fill a leadership position in Congress?