I hate writing meta diaries, and I usually consider them a waste. However we have a problem. Hence, I am making an exception.
I’ll start with a statement that can be filled in:
Recognizing a need for action is a starting point. Failure to take action after recognizing the need can be considered _______.
In this case, we are dealing with rating abuse at a scale that I don’t think we have ever seen in this blog’s history. The problem has reached a point that I personally no longer care how it started or why, nor am I interested in finger pointing. It simply needs to stop.
So, in the spirit of the statement I just put up, let’s realize that there is at least one user who is downrating posts with no regard to the content. The targets merely have to post and they are automatically downrated. Others are downrated simply because they post content that is merely contrarian. That, too, is unacceptable, and yet it is happening. We now have what amounts to an escalating ratings war on this blog. I have been observing this go on for a while now, and quietly did what I could with my minimal time to uprate those unfairly downrated. This problem has devolved to the point that one person alone simply cannot keep up, and honestly, I never could keep up when the situation was more manageable.
Now that I have pointed out a problem and one that potentially affects us all, it is up to us as a community to do something about it. I propose that each of us adopt at least one member (or more) who are being unfairly targeted and uprate them. Calling out the perps will not work. They will not listen. But we can at least do what is needed as a community to minimize the damage the perps cause. I honestly don’t know if there is enough life left in this blogging community to make a difference, but I am going to put this out there in the hope together we can. To do anything less is ___.
to do the right thing. Are there still some brave women and men here who will stand up and do the right thing? I hope so.
Back to Square One
The true perp once again exposed … breaking the truce within a matter of hours.
Fruitless attempt DD, yet I was quite optimistic. Will you be honest DD?
It is always best to remember that each of us is responsible for our own behavior. You might have gathered as much from my signature to my posts. I am not responsible for what other users do in terms of uprating or downrating. I am responsible for my own actions. When I say I have a truce with you, that is only between me and you. I am honoring that truce, and always had, even this weekend when you chose to dishonor it with me. Before we proceed further – did I downrate any of your posts in recent memory? Am I doing so today? I think you know the answer. I keep my word. You are always free to email me if there is ever a conflict between you and me. Keep in mind that I am the aggrieved in this instance given the choices you made. I am curious to see how you will go about making it right. Let’s see if we can get some trust on both sides again. At least I can offer.
I’m well aware of that, however you wrote this diary as an appeal to the community. You have an answer from one “faction”. See my earlier comments, I do not seek a rating fight, never have. My first 12 years here at Martin’s pond was as a Trusted User. I’ll survive and continue blogging here. Contrary to some posts here, I know that Martin does care about his community, however he never intended to be a babysitter. You and I won’t have animosity in posts again.
Remember that all I can do is make an appeal. I have no power beyond that. The only power I do have is in how I treat each of you with whom I interact.
As for you and me: We do argue periodically, and I don’t mind us disagreeing. Mainly it comes down to respect. I respect that you are communicating with me in good faith, and because I respect that, I refuse to downrate your posts. That is a matter of general principle that I adhere to – and the way I think of general principles is that I act consistently (sometimes rigidly in the eyes of others) to them. I may choose to reply to your posts. I may choose not to. That depends on whether I need to think for a while or realize that I would respond intemperately (I prefer not to do so, even if I don’t always succeed). I am personally of the opinion that using down ratings in instances where the post is not spam or obviously abusive or bullying behavior is typically a form of passive aggressive behavior, and I don’t have a lot of respect for passive aggressive behavior. Anyone reading this post should be on notice as to how I am looking at their rating behaviors.
In the meantime, Oui, I will continue to honor my promise to you. I can hope you will make some amends by undoing the damage you tried to cause me over the long weekend. Obviously I can only ask. I cannot coerce. The choice has to be yours.
Done! 🙂
Dank je (hopefully that is correct. I know almost no Dutch).
Disgusting. While you and I are at opposite poles on this subject in general and the particular incident in specific, I would never rate you for trolling on that post. I regard it as a civilized difference of opinion.
I also doubt that nalbar shares my beliefs. I’m strongly inclined to believe that it was an ad hominem attack and challenge him to explain his rating.
I looked for a guide to ratings here and just found two diaries recommended as user guides. The second had the following advice.
It was helpful, but not very specific about how to handle individual ratings. The European Tribune New User Guide was much more helpful.
Since 3 is considered an “up” rating, I will follow the letter of your advice and give one particular user 3 ratings unless I think the comment really deserves a 4. That should be enough to prevent their comments from being hidden.
A related issue is that some of the commenters here are grouping into factions, two of which have some but not all of their members using downrates as weapons in factional warfare. I’m supporting one regularly downrated member of each faction by uprating their comments.
I like that, simply for the sake of fairness. It may not stop the war (and this is easily one of the stupidest wars I have seen in all my years on the internets), but perhaps we can get some containment. Maybe the factions can figure out detente later. That’s on them, though.
That makes some sense given the context. Regrettably, I cannot see hidden comments at this time, so those that may be warranting rescue are simply ones I cannot rescue. Maybe that shall change. Maybe not. We’ll see. The main thing is to at least make sure that damage inflicted on several affected users is minimized. Unless Booman actively intervenes, that is the best that can be done for now. Reasoning with those bound and determined to escalate a ratings war is doomed to failure. I know. I tried. So did oaguabonita who deserves kudos for effort. All the community can do is to rescue downrated posts. I think some isolated individuals have tried to do so for a while, but time is limited and after a while individuals get tired and fed up.
Thx for this initiative DD .. I really mean it! I pledge I will not be the one to break the truce. I had already mailed AG I won’t be putting anymore effort and time in uprating his comments due to the troll ratings. So I’m fine with a declaration of support. There are many intermediate levels to show annoyance to a post by someone, to troll rate is NOT one of them! That has been my point of view for many years and I have exhaustively commented as such. Same as Neon Vincent above I have written diaries with the content of Martin’s primary directive: “Don’t be a prick.” In the end I became a target of the abusers.
I especially hope you remember that when it comes to those of us who have challenged your assertions without troll rating you in the process (seriously, we’re all supposed to be grown adults here, for goodness sake!). I can assert that your decision to draw me and oaguabonita into whatever rating war you have going on with whomever else here was a mistake. Each of us may have asked questions or made assertion that you may not have liked or agreed with, but neither of us treated you as a troll and both of us deserved the same courtesy denied us by you this extended holiday weekend. This blog functions to the extent it does based on a set of norms that evolved over time. Like any human institution, we’re not likely to think about or question the norms as long as they appear to work reasonably well. When those norms become violated blatantly and repeatedly, well, let’s just say that questions get asked. I live in a country where much of our governing is based on norms, and given what has become of those norms in the last year and a half, you can imagine that I might get a bit edgy when norms elsewhere in my life also stop working. We’ll see if this is simply a bad set of weeks, or not. I am hoping the former. Time will tell. You never had anything to worry about as far as I was concerned – troll rating especially. It is a shame you did not trust me this weekend. I lived up to my word nonetheless, just as in the past, and as I will continue as long as this blog continues to exist. I trust you will maintain a truce between us. I think you know now I will, even when my patience is severely tested.
. . . offered.
However, even though I’m currently THE prime target of oui’s and, to a lesser extent, voice’s ratings abuse (I don’t share your reticence of naming the perps), I can’t be on board with this proposed solution.
Specifically, I don’t agree with uprating comments for the sole purpose of countering abusers’ clearly unwarranted troll ratings. For one thing, this comes too close to mirroring oui’s own invalid excuse, i.e., that what he considers invalid downrates “justify” his self-avowed “retaliation” (with escalation) troll-ratings (though obviously this excuse cannot apply to his troll-rating of my substantive, accurate, factually supported comments, since I almost never downrate).
So, no, if anyone is ever inclined to uprate a comment of mine solely on the basis of it having been invalidly or “unfairly” troll-rated by the likes of oui or voice, I respectfully request that you refrain from doing so. If you’re inclined to uprate it on the merits of the content as you perceive them, then sure, I appreciate that.
But despite the increasingly egregious abuses by oui, especially, and voice to a lesser extent (at least in terms of frequency), I continue to recommend using ratings only as they were intended: to recognize quality content and flag trolling. That oui and voice do the opposite doesn’t, imo, justify adopting their inexcusable tactics (or even the converse variant thereof that you propose) to wrestle in the mud with pigs.
I say uprate what you think merits uprating. Troll-rate actual trolling, in contrast to oui’s and voice’s abuses of the ratings. Expose ag’s lies and breathtaking dishonesty with factual refutation.
Or just ignore them.
Any intervention beyond that (and, imo, any effective intervention) can only be accomplished by booman (who I presume must be extremely busy, and also bone-weary of this shit).
Why would anyone care what such long- and thoroughly-self-discredited abusers as oui, voice, or ag writes enough to take it personally? I know I don’t. I laugh at them. Every time. My fact-based challenges are to their abuses degrading this place that I value. I literally could not care less what they think of me personally. They lack any standing for that to matter to me.
I get where you’re coming from, and you pose an interesting question – is simply uprating for the sake of uprating a potential form of rating abuse? One thing to bear in mind, and this really is not intended as flattery, is that you’re an awful test case for this question as your comments are consistently well-written, on-point, and refrain from any of the behaviors that would be even remotely definable as trolling. Hate to break it to you, but any 4s coming from me are ones that by your definition are earned.
Maybe another question needs to be posed: why ratings in the first place? Why not just get rid of them? If the architecture underlying this blog don’t allow that as a possibility, why not complete the aborted migration to Progress Pond? Those are probably more questions for our host to consider, and perhaps for the reasons you mention above are ones that he won’t for now. Of course a ratings-less system has its own drawbacks, I suppose. Our current system, when not abused, allows for obvious spam (for example) to be hidden promptly. A blog without such a system would require an active owner and really active mods in order to combat spam, as well as actual trolling behavior. Oddly enough, this blog once had mods, but that was well over a decade ago. Getting folks to sign up for that thankless and time consuming task is going to be a hard sell, to put it mildly.
Thanks for your thoughtful reply. On some level, I think we agree that there is a problem of sorts, but diverge as far as tactics. I suspect you are right that the most effective tactics are ones only Booman can use, and for the reasons you have already mentioned, I wouldn’t bet the ranch on any action from him. He has enough on his plate, and this crap is beneath him. Really it should be beneath everyone, but regrettably it is not. You do what you have to do, and I’ll do what I think I need to do. In the meantime, I am looking forward to my impending extended break from here more and more.
. . . being disappeared? (This is a sincere question I don’t know the answer to.)
I’m only aware of that ever happening to ag (and in the cases I’m aware of, consider it well-earned, so no, not a problem, but rather the ratings working as designed).
Maybe I can vaguely recall a couple Russian (or Russian-style) trolls getting flushed that way during campaign 2016? There were a few that popped up here abruptly, hung around briefly, then disappeared just as abruptly, anyway. Or the rare, obvious commercial scam/spam?
Otherwise, I’m not aware of any regular, at least semi-sane, semi-normal, semi-decent, good-faith commenter being placed at risk of having their comments hidden by troll-ratings.
It’s certainly not anything I live in fear of. Except for the aforementioned triumvirate of ratings abusers (and to be fair, ag’s abuses normally take other forms, like lies and related dishonesty, which mainly just leaves voice and oui), if my comments get rated at all, they’re usually uprated. Oui’s ratings abuses seem to be all “1”s, suggesting he’s not a “Trusted User”, so can’t do zeroes, which I think are the only troll-ratings that can disappear a comment. So the faction that could put comments that don’t deserve disappearing at risk of disappearance looks tiny and ineffectual indeed from my perspective and based on my experience.
But maybe there’s a problem/risk of unwarranted hiding of comments that don’t deserve it that my personal knowledge and experience doesn’t cover?
But to me it seems the ratings system is actually pretty well designed in the sense that it’s actually pretty hard — by design — for ratings abusers to actually make a comment disappear that doesn’t deserve the treatment. And given the identities of the current abusers, if they fail at that, why would anyone care about their downrates? As already noted, to me they’re always good for a laugh, plus I take them as accolades/affirmations when I consider the source.
I honestly do not know the answer with any absolute clarity. What I do know is that I get something that looks like this when I view Oui’s comment ratings:
Keep in mind that I am not a trusted user as my mere existence apparently makes me a troll according to Oui. Yes, I realize how absurd that is. I might be able to surmise if those are really hidden comments or not under different circumstances.
And it is insane that we are all presumably adults who should be able to sort out what is a simple divergence of opinions and what is actual trolling. Personally, I’d much rather talk about how we might do everything in our power to make the US government sufficiently divided so that Trump is as impotent a “leader” of the US government as he is in every other facet of his life. That would be a more productive use of my last couple weeks prior to my extended walkabout (I’m still deciding how extended that walkabout shall be). This shit is just reminding me of why I would never agree to take control of a community or group blog ever again. I do moderate an FB group, but I have some institutional powers that prevent anyone from misbehaving (which is the only reason I even agreed to moderate in the first place).
. . . and voice “succeeded” at demoting me from Trusted User with their ratings abuse as well. I just checked. I can’t see those hidden comments in oui’s ratings either. Then I looked for the “view hidden comments” checkboxes that used to be in my options, and they’re no longer there. Then I just clicked the “rate” box on a random comment and the zero option is no longer there. I have no idea when those changed since I basically never use the zero or look at those other options.
Seems a flaw in the system that egregious ratings abusers evidently can, by that abuse, demote a Trusted User who never abuses the ratings. Oh, well.
…to the extent that the community follows norms that have evolved over the last thirteen or so years. When those norms begin to break down, as we both can observe, the system begins to fail. Your point regarding the limits of what we as individuals can do regarding community behavior still stands. We are indeed very limited, and the options available to police unwanted behavior in the absence of a blog owner are likely to be unpalatable or difficult to coordinate. At least I tried to offer a solution, rather than simply complain about a problem. I wish I could imagine better solutions.
Obviously some behind-the-scenes machinations going on (booman intervention? dunno; but that’s better and corrects an unjust malfunction imo, however it came about).
. . . abuses have disappeared. Still dunno if that’s intervention by booman, an effort by oui to rectify his own abuses (if so, credit where due: good for you, oui!), or other.
Credit Booman for doing what was needed behind the scenes. His responsiveness was refreshing.
Handing out 4’s to marduk wasn’t refreshing … one of the two early perps. 🙁
Signing off …
Somehow we’re going to do what needs to be done to make things better. I may not have quite the optimisim I had about a decade ago, but I am mustering up every last bit of optimism left now. This blog is at its best when we agree where we need to, disagree where we need to, and sort it out without all the rating nonsense. Speaking only for myself, I trust each person I typically interact with to do so as honestly and respectfully as possible, and I try my darnedest to do the same in return. I trust you. Let’s move forward and see what happens. In the meantime, dank je (I hope I am getting that right – my Dutch is awful and limited to a very small handful of phrases).
The latest from your favorite perp … a fruitless effort DD, I’ll kick a$$.
Because of some behavior you really dislike, you have no choice to do the exact same.
You will strike back, an eye for an eye, the only goal can be the total destruction of the evil forces.
Cant let the evildoers be evil without having to react in a forceful way, really we dont have a choice.
We are controlled by the evil in this world, it dictates our actions, free choice is an illusionary and naive notion.
So, noone can blame you for anything you do, you were forced to do it.
Fine words from the entity cyber-stalking AG and THE prime ratings abuser.
. . . (non-existent) credibility here, voice.
Go ahead, link to a single example — even just one — of me abusing the ratings here, ever. Even once.
Duh, you didn’t, and duh, you can’t, cuz duh, I don’t.
As for your “cyber-stalking AG” slander, it’s false, obviously.
Based on past experience of challenging you to back up your bullshit claims with evidence, I predict a “response” of . . . [crickets]
But, hey, glad you found my words “fine”. Thanks.
Is there a way to cash in on that supernatural power?
I doubt it, because most of us can see her.
.
Did somebody say something? I thought not.
my experience is that once the owner of a blog has stopped caring about it, there’s nothing the members can do to save it.
Sadly, I have to agree. I’ll be curious as to what’s left at BT when I once more have regular internet access (I’ll be gone much of June and parts of July). As of now, I am not overly optimistic.
You write:
You are quite correct.
But that is not…by far…its only (or even most serious) problem.
This blog has the same problem as does the entire culture.
Not to put loo frivolous a name on it…it now has a truthiness problem.
Just as the various sides of the PermaGov Media Show have found that posting false news and unfounded, unidentified accusations and “leaks” essentially freeze the entire system into a gear-grinding halt, so have the various downraters, lie-callers and kneejerk deniers of easily identifiable truths found a way to stall out this once proud, truly “progressive” blog into a morass of competing hustlers and the victims of those hustlers.
As above, so below.
Case in point;
I have been repeatedly been accused of being a downrater and also a “liar” by a number of neocentrist bloggers here. I do not wish to trouble people who are on the fence about this and ask them to dig into the massive pile of horseshit that has been written, so I will take the simplest possible route to illustrate the ongoing tactics of those people.
Accused of multiple downratings, I wrote that…as a general principle…I did not use downratings here for anything except the occasional commercial hustle, only upratings. I was immediately accused of being a liar by some of these people, even though I posted the history of my own blogsite ratings for the past 60 ratings over a period of well over 6 months. 1 downrating over that period of time. Go look at the evidence for yourself, dear readers. I am not lying. The same proportions..probabaly even less…hold true for the entire time that I have been posting on this site.
How many years is that?
Damned if I know.
10?
12?
More, probably.
User ID?
User ID #: 1721
A long, long time.
You figure it out.
Same same with the recurring “liar”theme that entity oaguobonita posts damned near every time I write an article now. He/she/it knows damned well that I do not have the time to sit here and effectively refute every false accusation leveled at me by whatever forces that are mimicking the same tactics used by big time centrists to non-person people who wish to not be part of the UniParty hustle.
Am I a “liar?”
Those of you with some remaining sense of the decency and vision to which you were born should be able to smell the difference between their politically-oriented hustle and the quest for the truth of the matter on which I have been embarked for 50+ years.
The rest?
God help you.
What goes around, comes around.
Every damned time.
Watch.
Later…
AG
Your quest for truth seems to mean shouting at people.
Also it seems that you arent very fair in your assessment of the problem, especially the part ” He/she/it knows damned well that I do not have the time to sit here and effectively refute every false accusation leveled at me”
Its for any criticism of anything you say like that. You just dont have time for that. If its reasonable, you dont have time.
You do have time to write many words, that rarely actually address anything that was written before.
So, the way i see it is that you only care about propagating ideas, many of which i dont believe you dont actually care about- since you just belch them at people hoping they land somewhere, and dont have time for anything else.
I fully expect a non answer, like every time you are called out on your behavior. You will write a long accusatory with nothing specific that addresses anything, you counter attack, and you will fume over how “they” are puppets of the mainstream, blindly follow the democrats like sheeple, cant see the “real” truth, etc etc etc
Dont you think thats part of the problem? to me it seems like its a cause of the division, and as long as you cant see that, you arent going to fix anything around here, and only contribute to what i see is the problem.
You write:
and
Half correct, half incorrect.
Yes indeed…i do “…only care about propagating ideas.” Perhaps my greatest failing is the word “only” in that sentence. Maybe I should be more…diplomatic…in my approach. That is a late-life lesson that I am still trying to learn.
I am a firecracker by nature.
My bad.
Genetics rule, sometimes.
But…where is your evidence that I “do not care” about what I am saying? About the ideas that I am definitely trying go “propagate?”
You think that I am doing this…saying these things…as some sort of hobby? I have spent my entire life as an artist and craftsman trying to get to the truths that underlie great music. This search has taken me far and wide, into many other disciplines and studies. What I have found is the basis of what I am trying to say, and the foundation of my entire life.
Disagree with me if you must, but don’t underestimate my seriousness.
The questions that I am trying to pose here are as serious as death.
Your death and mine, among many others.
Bet on it.
AG
Noone needs evidence to feel things, right?
The reason i feel that you dont care about many ideas you throw out is that you dont care to defend them very much, or very well.
Typically you try to bury criticism under a big load of information, that rarely addresses the criticism, or gives any sensible reason for doing so. Maybe it makes perfect sense to you, but you dont communicate it well in my opinion.
What it leads to is you throwing ideas out there, repeating things, while ignoring almost any criticism.
Its behavior thats typical, born out of frustration, and not something we should want, i feel.
That you are passionate, thats fine. That you are rude, no problem for me, if it means helping you express yourself, thats fine.
What annoys me more than anything is that you pretend that you have a better understanding of everything, and get seemingly upset when others dont respect your truth, and go full “you are all stupid and evil” on them. That gets tiring quickly, and will cause reactions to you, that upsets you more, and typically proclaim “its happening again, i am being censored!” while ignoring your own behavior.
Noone can make you behave the way they want, and noone should. But in my opinion, if you want to change things for the better, you should know exactly what the problem is and find ways to make a positive change. So far i dont see the point in repeating moves, to get more of the same result.
But maybe you have clearly addressed the problems already, and i totally missed it, since i admittedly dont read all of your posts, often the first few sentences put me off and i dont care to read all of it.
If you did, i would like to hear what you feel needs to be changed, sounds like you think its important.
You write:
There are two thoughts here.
1-Identifying “the problem.”
and
2-Finding ways to make a positive change.
Regarding #1, I believe hat I have “identified the problem.” The real problem, which is that well-meaning Americans of every stripe are being led down the garden path by a corporate-controlled media. This little BooTrib meta problem is a snapshot of that much, much larger problem.
Are the downraters, serial liars and hate-posters professional agitators? Maybe a few, but there is really no way to know. Some of them have certainly fallen for the fiction of a “progressive” DNC and have become so identified with the faux progressive line that has been handed to them that they take criticism of that line very personally. The Daily Kos is full of posters like that. Others are simply people who get off on conflict and become obsessed with individual posters. And…a few, I suspect…are the same kind of paid troll that I identified on the Daily Kos years ago by doing a time/effort investigation and finding that certain “posters” there were doing a truly impossible amount of hostile posting in mind-bgglingly short periods of time.
Regarding #2? I really do not know what to do. I certainly will not give up trying to point out the existence of a Judas Goat media to those who have been propagandized by it, but in well over a decade of blogging I have not succeeded in making much…if any…difference.
So it goes…
I do keep trying.
Forgive me for that?
There is nothing to forgive except my bone-deep horror at the current state of this country.
Does that horror sometimes lead me into dark corners?
Yup.
So that goes as well.
Later…
AG
Still you arent specific about what the problem is i think, sure mainstream media is controlled by powerful interests. At the same time there is independent media.
This place seems to be part of independent media. You, and anyone has a place here to post diaries, none of wich have been removed ever, as far as i know.
I dont feel like people here are “duped” into believing things are different than they are. We all have an imperfect view on whats truly going on, and in general people seem to be very aware of that, as far as i can see.
So what are some examples of things, that you feel are indicators of people believing the party line uncritically? I cant think of anything that would fall in that category, help me see.
And what paid trolls? thats even further from my point of reference, it could happen, but its a heavy charge i feel, which would require some very clear evidence to accept as truth.
You write:
I have no proof on this site, just suspicions. You say “It could happen, but I have no reference.”
It not only could happen, it did happen. On dKos.
Here is a post I made on this site in 2012 regarding that “possibility”…a copy of the one I posted on dKos that was one of the things that led to my banning there. If it can happen once, it can happen again. Bet on it. Better camouflaged, too.
Thank you for your downrating, nalbar. Every negative response from entities like you reinforces my suspicion that I may be on to something worthwhile.
AG
Suspicions arent factual truths, and who cares about what happened somewhere else, we are here, now. And i am trying to figure out why you feel the way you feel.
Can you give some examples of things, that you feel are indicators of people believing the party line uncritically?
I really don’t know where…or even how…to start, bazzz. If you don’t see the evidence of this on about 70% of the comments here then I suppose you won’t see it in my examples. But…short of time today…I’ll give it a shot. You’ll have to do the work, but it’s there to see if you are willing to see it.
Almost every time I challenge the idea in any way that the most powerful leaders of the Democratic Party are any more than career politicians playing both ends against the middle instead of “progressives,” I receive a downrating from nalbar and/or marduk plus frenzied attacks from others about whatever they wish to call my own views.
As Casey Stengel used to say, “You could look it up.” Just go to my user page and read the various responses to my posts and comments, including the downrating twosome of nalbar and marduk.
If you do not see plentiful evidence of what I am saying…whether those people are heartfelt supporters of the (in my opinion) failed Democratic Party as it now stands, simply trolls that have found a subject over which they can jerk off their excess angers or paid trolls…if you do not see that evidence?
I can’t help you.
Gotta go practice, now.
In my own professional musical world, a bad note is simply a bad note. There really is very little wiggle room.
As opposed to here.
Gotta work; gotta pay the bills…
So it goes.
Have fun…
AG
No, Arthur, the biggest problem in this post is you saying “if you cant see it my way, then you must be stupid”
You are shifting the problem onto me, and not taking responsibility for your own lack of making a coherent argument.
Even though i merely ask for any supporting evidence that support your claim, which you dodge.
But i didnt have much hope going into this discussion, but i scraped together every bit of goodwill i have, to give you a fair and reasonable chance to tell it like it is, trying not to judge you, giving you all the room you could ever need to make the argument.
But you dodge, despite your claim to be a straight shooter, someone who tells it like it is.
But in the end, it seems all to come down to your sentiment, other people arent enough like you, and you dont like their opinions. You could have given examples of the 70% of comments that are “not progressive”
But you never give anything of substance, which makes it hard for critical people to take your claims seriously. And i have no doubt that you will blame me, as it already started, since i suspect you feel it coming, the conclusion that you are not serious about your ideas.
Serious ideas can stand up to scrutiny, they dont have to convince everyone, but they need to be palatable to others willing to listen, even if they doubt you. Serious ideas dont have to hide from the day of light, when called on those ideas, there needs no other idea to be put into its place. There needs not to be obscuring language be used to change the meaning, or hide its nature.
And thats only the beginning of what serious ideas are, in my opinion. There may be other definitions, there may be different criteria. But serious attempts to be serious need to be understood.
Someone once said to me, if you cant explain an idea or concept to someone else, you probably dont understand it very well at all.
Maybe thats something you might want to consider.
You write:
Possibly.
Consider this as well.
One cannot “explain” something to a closed mind.
Maybe that is something that you might want to consider. You and your allies.
I have explained my ideas over and over again here.
Anyone who doesn’t agree is welcome to speak to me.
They are also of course, welcome to downrate me, obfuscate, spew invective and deny.
My non-answering…and non-downrating as a general principle…is by no means a retreat. There are only so many hours in a day, and I am a freelance worker. Any day that I am not out on a job, I spend upwards of 6 hours practicing to be able to do my job, and another several catching up on chores, shopping for food, cooking, answering neglected email, and so on. My significant other has a 6 day/week job teaching, so I need time to keep house, etc.
But…bet on it…I do not “retreat.”
I simply choose my own ground on which to fight.
Later…
AG
. . . (verbatim quote, as always)
(which is unequivocally false).
Then you CHOSE the ground with your breathtakingly hideous and grotesque dishonesty of substituting “Half of Trump’s Supporters” [dishonest, deceptive quotation marks yours] in place of “working class whites” above, in your failed self-serving attempt to pretend the dispute was about what it was never about instead of what it was actually about.
Truly breathtaking dishonesty.
Then you CHOSE to run away from thorough, definitive factual refutation of all the above on the ground that YOU CHOSE.
And you CHOOSE to keep running away.
YOU CHOOSE the ground, then you run away when you can’t defend the ground YOU CHOSE!
You’re as dishonest as they come.
Quoting me:
You write:
“Dishonest, deceptive quotation marks yours!!!”
I “chose” to use those quotation marks because they are a direct quote from her abominably stupid speech, a speech that…along with her other major gaffe, the public/private positions thing to an audience of Wall Streeters who were paying her to speak to them…were major contributors to her loss. She…and the Wall Street boys…had no idea that it would be leaked, so she dropped her “liberal” mask for a minute and got caught at it.
So it goes.
You don’t like it?
You don’t like that I bring it up?
I don’t like that the abject criminality, stupidity and kneejerk venailty of the Democratic Party as it now stands has brought us Donald Trump.
Try spewing your hatred at the real villains.
It ain’t me, ma.
Not by a long shot.
You are dreamin’.
Later…
AG
As always, you pick a minor side-detail to pretend to “respond” to while avoiding the substantive refutation that is the only actual subject here.
But running away via failed diversion attempts is still running away.
Obviously, you’re a very slow (no, make that “never”) learner. You’ve failed to learn that I’m not easily distracted. You’ve failed to learn that your consistently failed hand-waving diversion attempts consisting of fire-hose output of irrelevant, off-topic, stupid blather always fail, and always will fail.
Returning to the actual subject, the one you keep running away from:
1. Your lie that ‘HRC impli[ed] that working class whites are “deplorables”‘. That this is unequivocally false is definitively demonstrated by Clinton’s own verbatim words in their full context, in which she very precisely defined “deplorables” (with unusual, admirable specificity for a politician!) as “The racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamophobic — you name it . . . “.
Clinton did not ‘impl[y] that working class whites are “deplorables”‘. That’s just a fact.
2. The hideous, grotesque, breathtakingly self-serving dishonesty of replacing “working class whites” in “1” above with ‘”Half of Trump’s Supporters“‘ [dishonest, deceptive quotation marks in your original] in a failed attempt to pretend the dispute in “1” above was about what it was never about, but instead about something entirely different. Grotesque dishonesty!
Of course this latest attempt to grasp at the straw of your quotation marks abuse for your latest failed diversion du jour fails just as spectacularly as all your previous failed diversion attempts. It doesn’t matter whom, if anybody (or nobody, as you routinely misuse blockquotes/quotation marks to “quote”) you were quoting or pretending to quote*. Like substituting “half of Trump’s supporters” in place of “working class whites”, they are part of a blatant, transparent, hideously, grotesquely, reprehensibly dishonest attempt to pretend the dispute was about something it was never about, instead of what it was actually about.
*btw, that’s not in fact a “direct quote” from Clinton’s speech (you could look it up!); but this is a trivial correction, so you’ll presumably make it the only thing you address, in order to have a diversion to hang your next unresponsive “response” on when running away from the substantive subject . . . again! Or you’ll just run away again by not replying at all.
I am willing to listen to your explanations of why you make the claims you make, but before you get to explaining anything you tell me “if you dont understand, its your fault”
I asked you questions about some claims you make, i dont think i was ambiguous in what i meant.
So, as far as i am concerned, you dont give a crap about the ideas you have. You dont care, because you dont make the tiniest bit of effort to convince anyone.
I cant blame you for what you feel, and i cant force you to explain anything.
But i can judge you for the effort you put in, in the word count, and in the substance, and in the willingness to talk to people who try to listen, the manner in which you deal with criticism.
And it doesnt look good Arthur, you talk a lot of shit about people, and you talk down to them when you cant get respect for your ways. And, you are the way you are, and you make choices in your behavior. Thats just fine, everyone should have a right to express themself.
But you seem to be unable to see that your behavior provocates reactions, or you are extremely cynical, and you provoke reactions, and then fake your persecution.
Whatever it is, when you act without respect, and you in turn expect to be respected, sounds not like a winning strategy. No matter how effective exactly that is on the right.
You can rationalize your behavior for yourself. And you can talk shit. And you can feint people being mean to you. But thats not going to change anything for the better, or is it?
I am still willing to listen, if you are respectful, and make some sort of effort to make serious arguments.
If you are nothing but a propagandist, who doesnt care about anything real, but glorifies imaginary ideas, then you are one of the many hustlers, selling their ideology, rather than to try to make anything better.
Those people dont care about people, they care about their own ideas, and people who go argue against them must be destroyed. they are cockroaches which are stupid and worthless. They dont see how brilliant the ideas are, they dont see that if they dont believe the same, they are obstructing the good work. So why would anyone listen to what they have to say, why adress their criticism, there is no time for that!
So, if you are a hustler, keep selling stuff noone needs.
If you are someone who cares about ideas, act like someone who cares about ideas.
The title of this thread is “This blog has a ratings abuse problem.”
I agree.
You asked me the following:
I answered you quite clearly, providing easily found examples of ratings abuse as my evidence.
Did you do that? Go to my user page and check the correlations of which I spoke?
It is…and has been…a very clear, many times repeated, one-to-one correlation.
So…whether:
1-You did go there, spend the five minutes or so it would take to look at the many downrated posts and failed to see that correlation.
or
2-You did not make that effort.
Then…as I said above…I cannot help you. You continue your course unmoved.
Feel free to do so.
And…have a nice day.
AG
I am aware of that Arthur.
I even explained to you that its your own behavior that invites that.
I explained that you expect people to listen to you talk, but you dont listen to others.
You blame me for being “not open minded”, but you block out any criticism, unwilling to listen or acknowledge any of it, so if you are open minded, whats with that? The best defense is a good offense?
And now you are trying to gaslight? Read the fucking thread one more time, to me its clear that you dodge my questions.
Your “answers” dont address my questions.
So what the fuck is wrong with you?
Are you so fucking scared to even answer basic questions about claims you made?
Dont you have the balls to be intellectually honest? Or is there a valid reason you always try to change what was said to fit your narrative?
Or do you trust me so little that i dont deserve a decent answer?
Do you feel i have been dishonest, or unfair to you in our exchange so far?
But i dont think you are going to answer any of these things. Its always the same, and partly what i criticize you for.
How the fuck are you going to ever make any change here if you dont want to tell anyone what needs to be changed, and i told you i dont buy that its the downrating, it doesnt fit your claims. If i need to explain it better, i will, provided you arent a lazy dismissive fuck again.
You talk crap about people, you pretend you have some special insights that makes you enlightened. But you cant express any of it in a way that critical thinkers, which you claim to be, would find compelling.
What you believe is your own business, what you preach in public should be able to stand up to scrutiny, like every idea.
But they dont, again, when called to substantiate your claims, you dodge, and you try to distract.
And i also feel that thats exactly the crap that is destructive, you shouting from your bubble, like so many are shouting from their own bubble.
My feeling that the ratings abuse isnt the problem, its a symptom. Its the lack of solidarity, its the failed search to what is common in this community thats problematic. Not naive stupid people who cant think for them self, like you seem to suggest all of the time, we all know any information could be false, or inaccurate, or outright manipulative.
Translation:
OK.
I get that.
Have a lot of nice days.
Really.
Later…
AG
Thats what you were after, no? An excuse to ignore me, MR Open Mindedness himself?
Assume you are right, how is that different from what you do on a daily basis?
And would you deserve to be treated better than you treat others yourself?
An excuse to run away. But one that isn’t actually an excuse (i.e., valid), but instead just a pretext.
Or of course-an alternate translation:
Either way…
Have a bunch of nice days.
Later…
AG
Interesting choice of words Arthur.
Is there anything i have said thats super unfair?
I will keep telling it like i see it, is that a bad thing Arthur?
Nothing you’ve said is even remotely unfair.
And if you actually cared to read what i wrote, i think in this thread i have told you thats hardly relevant twice.
But you dont give a crap, not about what you say yourself, and certainly not what others that disagree with you say to you.
They are wrong, how could you ever be wrong, right Arthur?
I think that massive ego’s only use is to hide away your insecurities, including the superiority act. You arent any better than anyone in this world, you are just a confused schmuck, like everyone.
. . . (absurdly so), then sure:
It is laughable that you can even pretend to yourself (unless it’s instead a conscious lie) that your criticism of Dems is the basis for criticism/downrates of your shit. You frequently make this bullshit claim. I’m not aware of a single instance where there was any evidence for it. (Seeing you run away from bazzz’s utterly reasonable request for specific examples of what you’re whining about, I won’t even bother with a similar challenge on this point. I know too well from past experience what to expect: irrelevant diversionary blather or [crickets].)
This is just another manifestation of your hideous, grotesque, reprehensible dishonesty (one I’ve pointed out before): lying about the reasons/motivations of your critics, despite the fact that we have explained, repeatedly, with crystal clarity, in exquisite detail, exactly what our reasons/motivations and the exact nature of our actual criticisms actually are . . . as I’ve done repeatedly ad nauseum and bazzz has been doing throughout this thread. You simply ignore all that and just make up some bullshit self-serving reason/motivation/alternative substance to save you bothering your pretty little head with the substantive criticism you were actually confronted with.
Seems very clear at this point that this is a very perverse and dishonest psychological defense mechanism to inoculate yourself from ever honestly examining what actually goes on here and your inescapable role in bringing about your earned pariah status here.
As long as you can pretend people’s criticisms of what you do here are about something completely other than what they’re actually about . . .
And forgive me for not buying the problem you identify in the first post, it doesnt sound like its too substantial.
If you feel it is, do give some specific examples, instead of very generic observations. Some of it makes sense, other stuff seems born out of self pity, and frustration.
Also the most dishonest ever to show up here.
Dishonesty you compound here:
I’ve primarily and repeatedly confronted you with two glaring cases of lying/dishonesty. Two!
1. The lie that Clinton ‘impli[ed] that working class whites are “deplorables“‘. That this is unequivocally false is definitively demonstrated by Clinton’s own verbatim words in their full context, in which she very precisely defined “deplorables” (with unusual, admirable specificity for a politician!) as “The racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamophobic — you name it . . . “.
Clinton did not ‘impl[y] that working class whites are “deplorables”‘
. That’s just a fact.
That your false claim above is not merely false, but a lie (i.e., a false claim made knowing it was false) is demonstrated by the fact that you both recommended and commented under the diary linked above. So you can’t hide behind a claim of ignorance that Clinton ‘impli[ed] that working class whites are “deplorables”‘ is unequivocally, categorically false. It is further demonstrated by the fact that, despite its thorough, definitive, factual refutation, you continued to defend it and failed to retract/correct it, which was the only honest, honorable course open to you.
2. The hideous, grotesque, breathtakingly self-serving dishonesty of replacing “working class whites” in “1” above with ‘“Half of Trump’s Supporters”‘ [dishonest, deceptive quotation marks in your original] in a failed attempt to pretend the dispute in “1” above was about what it was never about, but instead about something entirely different. Grotesque dishonesty!
Plus,
3. Running away from the factual refutation above.
Now to that list we can add the transparent bullshit that it’s the time constraints of your oh, so busy schedule (which, as somebody already pointed out, nevertheless allows you plenty of time to routinely spew a firehose-worth of idiotic shit here) that prevents “refuting” the two whole irrefutable, thoroughly, factually documented observations above.
It would be hyperbolic of me to assert that a more dishonest human than you has never existed. But within my personal experience over 64 years, online, in-person, reading history and biography? No. You win the “prize”.
Toxic posters thrive on negative attention. They can’t derail conversations by themselves, only by suckering other posters into engaging.
If they think they’re countering “unjust” ratings by childish whining in the diaries or going on obviously abusive counter-rating attacks, who gives a shit?
It’s always the same 3 idiots. Ignore their toxic behavior, troll rate when they deserve it, and move on.
touché – your choice, we can cross the Hudson river to meet at Weehawken 🙂
Apparently, you are speaking from experience.
It seems that Marie3, one of the biggest contributors and always fact-based has become a un-person. Her last post was apparently on May 3. I had worried that something had happened to her, since she and I are of an age, but NONE of her posts are in the record any more. I guess she was troll-rated out of existence as she was at DKOS or summarily banned for annoying the blog owner as I was.
I am not certain what has become of Marie3 since March 7 of this year. She has only one hidden comment in the archives, so I don’t think she was troll-rated out of existence. Those comments that did have two or more ratings usually clocked in at 3 or so. On that basis alone, I seriously doubt she would have been banned, but that is merely a guess on my part. I do think we have some former regulars who lurk. Maybe she still reads what is going on? Maybe she wanted an extended break? Often we don’t know what happens to former bloggers here unless someone just happens to pass on some info. My hope is that she is okay.
Mine too. We agreed on a lot and disagreed greatly on other things, but I always found her arguments well thought out (well 99% of them), backed them up with statistics, and she would engage people instead of hide rating them.
I can’t see any of her comments so I doubt I am a Trusted User any longer, via people who just came for the Clinton campaign.
I too rarely come here anymore because of the poisonous atmosphere.
March 7? I thought it was May 3, but since I can’t see any of her comments anymore, I’ll take your word for it.
We came from different backgrounds, she a Northern California anti-war
Liberalradical. I a conservative mid-westerner from a family that had many military members (mostly from WW II). I really haven’t changed my views much since the ’60s but the window has shifted so far Right that today I am considered a Socialist for what were mainstream views in 1960, even in the (R) party. And being pro-Union is almost Communist today.If you go to Search under Menu and then search using the following parameters: “Comments By” you will see her last comments. I didn’t check to see when she last posted a diary, although it would be highly out of character for her to post a diary and not make periodic comments. I don’t think you have to be a trusted user to do that particular search. Even if she and I locked horns from time to time, I have to admit I would not mind seeing a post or two from time to time – if for no other reason than to know she is okay.
Something you see in your comment hits home: each of us may come from somewhat different backgrounds, age groups, religious and ideological preferences, etc. Sometimes we need to step back a moment and realize where each of us is coming from and make sure we’re really understanding each other’s underlying assumptions and values. I try. Probably fail a good bit, but I try. All any of us can do.
Yes. And if a hot button is pressed, best to wait a while before responding. I’m pleading guilty to that. Italian blood runs hot, especially at insults. However, you are right, perceived insults may not be.
Truly, who can forget that one time, in the heat of the moment, that you spent months repeating slanderous lies about me, by name, in the diaries, and then threatened my life when I called you out on it.
Just “hot blooded” I guess.
Bygones!
. . . slandered me with lies right here in this very thread.
Not to be missed: his “response” (note to whom that replies!!!) when I called him out on it!
This kind of cowardly hit-and-run slander is a voice specialty. He does it regularly. The reason is obvious.
link
With a link you explained it better than me! Thanks!
The serie of troll ratings by this perp … Marie3 was uprated by Voice and myself. Clearly she was shunned by the cultists of this community. It’s all there for anyone who truly cares …
In the last diary written by Marie3 …
○ #55 Strong – Update #3
she posted comments until March 7th. Last comments in this “community” from Marie3 were troll rated dated from March 8th.
How ironic!!!
Nalbar…the king or queen of ratings abuse here, along with marduk…downrates on a thread called “This blog has a ratings abuse problem,” essentially illustrating that problem.
Nice.
Thanks, nalbar.
AG
I remember in the past you trying out payback and downrating, just like the evil people.
I could be mistaken, but it was right after you complained about being downrated too.
Its almost like you are human Arthur, vindictive, tribal, manipulative and hypocritical.
I may have…I have been known to try everything, bazzz. But as I said…my general principle is and has been from my time at dKos right on through the other few leftiness blogs in which I contributed and here as well…not to downrate unless I think that there is some sort of troll and/or commercial hustle being propagated.
I experimented on a few instances over my 15 or so years of blogging, and every time I came to the same conclusion.
Ratings wars are a complete waste of time.
So I do not engage in them.
End of story.
Any time that I have done so has been a mistake on my part. I learn…sometimes slowly…but I do learn
And this sentence?
So you have learnt that not commenting on the actual substance, or what was said is a waste of time too?
Good that you learn things Arthur, i have learnt a few things too, or more, had my previous experience reaffirmed.
You dont care for ideas, you use them only to slap people when it suits you, rather than to enlighten yourself, or others.
Dont you think this is a waste of time too Arthur? since you dont have time and all, shouldnt you be smarter and ignore me instead? All you get is the equivalent of your own post, i mean, this is hardly constructive in any way.
Dont you think thats what humans often are, and every single person all of those some of the time?
Or are you going to pretend that you dont see these things, and deny that you arent above them?
Humans are assholes, especially to other humans, do you disagree?
There is so much shit going on that its hard to see the positive things, or what is needed for positive things.
But you agree that you need to be aware of both, and at least to make an effort to assume not the wost reflexively, especially when there is conflict? If people hate another they arent willing to listen to the other side, right? Ofcourse the way people behave often makes it extremely hard to trust them, especially when they arent human, but merely characters on a screen.
It makes it easy to dismiss them out of hand, without giving them a fair chance to listen, right?
Oh look, Arthur’s telling lies about me.
Quelle suprise!
what a pathetic bunch … fortunately just a foursome to litter the blog community :-))
From the BooMan blog guidelines which refers to Pastor Dan’s community norms. These have been used as guide from the earliest beginning of Martin Longman’s Pond. Please take note of the use of the ratings system. Such a shame these have been shredded in the last two years! Read them and for any normal person with some decency they are self-explanatory. All other opinions should be disregarded as utter bullshit and abuse of the system. You will be called out again and again.
So the whiners are complaining?
Not in archive are 48 posts. Of these there are 23 troll ratings, mostly by nalbar (big whiner) and seconded by marduk. They have been kept in standing by the company of a few.
This has been going on for two years now!
Source: Comics, Milkshakes, And (Failing To Fight) Internet Trolls
The harassment campaign targeting a few as others watch and do nothing.
“.. nalbar and marduk trollrate comments that, in their subjective judgment, qualify as trolling.”
Then read the basic rules of Martin’s blog …
Disagreement is NOT at all acceptable for a troll rating. No one else but these two idiots have trollrated me in these two years. Before that, no one else has EVER trollrated me here at the Pond.
What’s honesty oaguabonita? Defending the indefensible, where progressive Democrats have become masters in on this blog.
From the BooMan blog guidelines which refers to Pastor Dan’s community norms.
Besides the clear outline of the ratings system and blog ethics … stop the bullying and harassment.
.