When the idea of intervening in Libya first arose about exactly five years ago, I immediately and vociferously objected and warned of “tribal rivalry and chaos” in a post-Gaddafi world.
Initially, I was concerned that we’d start off small and get sucked into a larger effort when Gaddafi didn’t immediately fall. But, all along, I had the aftermath in mind.
Let me say this again. We don’t know what kind of leadership would emerge from this opposition if they were to prevail, but they don’t even appear to have operational leadership in the field. We have no compelling reason to commit ourselves to this fight. It’s a mistake. And the president has been pushed very far out on a limb here, probably through a false sense of momentum arising from the successful revolutions in Tunisia and Egypt. It will be painful to walk this back, but unless Hillary Clinton discovers a compelling, organized opposition in Benghazi when she arrives there this week, our commitment to regime change in Libya should be scaled back. It’s not our problem. Obama is in the process of making it our problem. We should stand ready to prevent massacres and offer asylum, but should not commit our military to do what the rebels cannot do themselves. If we want to pursue other angles, like seeking out potential alternatives to Gaddafi from within his circle, that seems to me to be unwise but still preferable to getting into a civil war on the side that our intelligence director says is likely to lose. Once we commit a tiny bit, we’ll wind up doing the fighting because we can’t afford to lose.
But what will we have won? Good will? Don’t be silly.
I was relieved when Russia agreed to authorize a United Nations resolution (which they later bitterly regretted) and the president made it clear that we’d be “leading from behind” and letting the Europeans take on a lot of responsibility. By October 2011, I was willing to give the president a little credit for taking out Gaddafi without too much expense, no casualties, and without doing too much arming of the rebels. Things had gone better than I feared they would.
But this was temporary and basically an illusion.
A year ago, I recapped my opposition to and evolution on our intervention in Libya, so I don’t need to reinvent the wheel here. My position at the outset can be summed up as “it isn’t humanitarian to arm a country up for a prolonged civil war that kills many more people and leaves more destruction than anything that you prevented in the first place.” I was opposed to doing regime change in Libya, but was mostly concerned about arming Libyans to do the job. In the end, it didn’t matter because Gaddafi had so many weapons that, when he fell, my nightmare scenario came to fruition even without our arms.
The covert coals-to-Newcastle effort to arm the rebels during the revolution was the least of it. The dictator had stashed an astonishing quantity of weapons in the desert.
“We knew he had a lot, but he had 10 times that,” said Jean-David Levitte, then a top aide to Mr. Sarkozy.
While the C.I.A. moved quickly to secure Colonel Qaddafi’s chemical weapons, other efforts fell short. “There was one arsenal that we thought had 20,000 shoulder-fired, surface-to-air missiles, SA-7s, that basically just disappeared into the maw of the Middle East and North Africa,” recalled Robert M. Gates, the American defense secretary at the time…
…The weapons that had made it so hard to stabilize Libya were turning up in Syria, Tunisia, Algeria, Mali, Niger, Chad, Nigeria, Somalia, Sudan, Egypt and Gaza, often in the hands of terrorists, insurgents or criminals.
In the fall of 2012, American intelligence agencies produced a classified assessment of the proliferation of arms from Libya. “It was like, ‘Oh, my God,’” said Michael T. Flynn, then head of the Defense Intelligence Agency. “We’ve not had that kind of proliferation of weapons since really the end of the Vietnam War.”
Look, I take no pleasure in saying “I told you so” on something like this. The only reason I bring this up is so people can’t use the Condoleezza Rice excuse that “no one could have predicted” that things could (and most likely, would) go terribly wrong in Libya after Gaddafi left power and that we didn’t want to be responsible for that.
How much responsibility does Hillary Clinton have for this fiasco?
I don’t think her supporters really want to start looking at that question. In my opinion, the president’s instincts were right and things would have been considerably worse for us if he hadn’t been aggressive in limiting our investment. But the pressure was overwhelming for us to intervene. And we can’t ignore Clinton’s role:
President Obama was deeply wary of another military venture in a Muslim country. Most of his senior advisers were telling him to stay out. Still, he dispatched Mrs. Clinton to sound out Mr. Jibril, a leader of the Libyan opposition. Their late-night meeting on March 14, 2011, would be the first chance for a top American official to get a sense of whom, exactly, the United States was being asked to support.
In her suite at the Westin, she and Mr. Jibril, a political scientist with a doctorate from the University of Pittsburgh, spoke at length about the fast-moving military situation in Libya…
…Mrs. Clinton was won over. Opposition leaders “said all the right things about supporting democracy and inclusivity and building Libyan institutions, providing some hope that we might be able to pull this off,” said Philip H. Gordon, one of her assistant secretaries. “They gave us what we wanted to hear. And you do want to believe.”
Her conviction would be critical in persuading Mr. Obama to join allies in bombing Colonel Qaddafi’s forces. In fact, Mr. Obama’s defense secretary, Robert M. Gates, would later say that in a “51-49” decision, it was Mrs. Clinton’s support that put the ambivalent president over the line.
It’s beyond the scope of this piece to discuss Clinton’s recommendations on Syria that the president thankfully rejected.
I hear people make all kinds of arguments. Some say that Clinton is far to the right of the president. Others say that they are clones of each other. But, where it really matters, like on issues of military engagement, they are unquestionably different people. Clinton is more interventionist.
For many, many people, this was the decisive distinction between them in the 2008 campaign. And, for a lot of those same people, it’s the big nagging doubt that is preventing them from getting wholeheartedly behind her candidacy now.
Clinton on Syria:
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/08/hillary-clinton-failure-to-help-syrian-rebe
ls-led-to-the-rise-of-isis/375832/
Same story.
Congrats: another liberal who winds up supporting a candidate that will do the opposite of what they want.
How fucking hard is this to realize she isn’t any sort of ally?
That’s just lazy, fladem.
If you’ve learned anything from reading me all these years it should be that I subordinate everything to fighting the Conservative Movement and doing whatever it takes to keep them out of the Oval Office.
I got into this because the neoconservatives were running the Pentagon and it was the worst disaster the world had seen (with potential to be much worse) in a very long time.
So, that might lead you to think I’d support the least neoconservative candidate available.
But that’s not the calculation when failure is not an option.
The prime directive is to win this election at all costs and just be grateful that the worst was averted.
Of course, head to head polls continue to provide evidence that Bernie would actually be MORE electable.
Once – just once – I would like to hear someone making the electability argument explain how a candidate with 40-54 favorables win.
She can beat Trump. Sanders can beat Trump. He leads by 17 this morning.
But against Rubio, she in very real trouble.
Trust me on this.
If I thought Sanders winning the nomination would leave the Democratic Party in a strong condition with victory assured, I’d support him in a second.
I don’t believe that.
I believe it would result in something less severe but still resembling what we’re seeing on the right.
I’m not prepared to trade a united party against a splintering one for a chance to win the lotto.
Because you think the Democratic establishment would only weakly support (or would passive-aggressively oppose) a Sanders candidacy, thus threatening our victory?
That strikes me as pretty believable. Tragic, but not outrageous.
Oh, and while Clinton’s recommendations re. Libya are an important window in her preferred policies, our actual Libya policy is 100% on Obama. He made the final call. As I’m sure he’d agree, he owns it.
yes, and also that it would massively curtail defections from people who are fine with the Clintons (if it comes to that) but not at all fine with Donald Trump or a socialist.
Where is the polling evidence to support this fear? Clinton is a candidate with horrible unfavorables who runs poorly against either Cruz or Rubio in every head to head poll. She’s the one you should fear in November.
He does own it.
But she convinced him.
Look at the timeline of the posts I cite (of myself) in this piece and then look at this:
My first four anti-Libya pieces?
2/25/11
2/26/11
3/8/11
3/13/11
Clinton was actively working to change the mind of Obama who initially agreed with me completely.
Am I supposed to be grateful?
Yes, and you should be glad if somebody thinking like this is running our foreign policy:
I am absolutely enthusiastic Bill Clinton’s policies prevented massacres in places like Sarajevo in the 90’s. I am absolutely enthusiastic that the policies Hillary supported prevented massacres in Benghazi and Misrata recently. Every intervention either Clinton has pushed has been a big win for the world. I’m sorry they didn’t go into Rwanda, and I’m sorry they didn’t go into Syria, although in both cases perhaps it wouldn’t have been possible.
Problem is, not convinced she can win against the GOP nominee, even Trump. Unless Trump’s history contains a real bombshell, not crooked business dealings, he can create a winning “America First” coalition. The GOP will assume they can block any anti-corporate move in Congress. Social issues don’t matter. Flip flops don’t matter.
DON”T fall into the trap that he can’t win in a close election. Outside educated metro areas, he has real appeal. Unless the Dem turnout is huge, his win is possible. Can HRC generate those turnout numbers?
R
survival (cultural, civilizational, species, ecological, take your pick)?
But it won’t and that is where you are being very lazy.
There was a sort of lazy liberalism in the past that was based mostly on people’s best intentions. It worked for a while.
And then it hit a wall.
Clinton is a hawk. She always has been. So is Bill. That was what the DLC was about – fear of the right – fear of being labeled soft.
And it led directly to her vote for the AUMF. And to Libya. And it will directly lead into Syria.
Same on Climate Change. Best intentions can’t avoid physics.
You either reform Health Care, or you will cut raise the retirement age. It’s simple math.
But in the end I don’t buy the argument anyway.
You talk about mcGovern! But when shown the data you ignore it – because the data show pretty clearly what you write about him is dead wrong.
You think you can defer these choices – but you can’t. Increasing inequality will lead increase racism. And Clinton will not do a damn thing about any of it.
Your point? This is dumb lying with stats.
Fewer DEM voters abandoned the DEM nominee after 1984 because by then the racists had become comfy enough with the GOP to re-registered as such. Comparisons between two person general elections and three person elections is also misleading. Each of those numbers in each of those years tells a story, but it’s a different story in each of those elections.
tell the story of 1972 then.
keep it at that.
One-third of Democrats voted for Nixon.
I believe I was accused of misrepresenting the facts.
All I said was that a united party generally will crush a divided one, and in 1972, the Democrats resembled to Republicans of 2016.
Be real. In 1972, like 1968, these so-called Democrats voting for Nixon were former Eisenhower Republicans that switched once (in 1964) for LBJ in the wake of the Kennedy assassination. Their parents may have been Democrats (and grandparents) but they were died-in-the wool Republicans, racism and all, all along.
that’s complete bullshit. Fladem has a much more credible beef with the numbers.
They were Republicans, before, during, and after LBJ, dude. The Democratic Party was broken long before 1972.
I did – in detail. Nixon was popular (you don’t mention that) and southern Democrats were leaving the Party (compare ’72 to ’68 and ’80).
Clinton is not popular. Nixon was. At the time of his re-election one of the most popular since the WW2.
You have not responded to any of the data presented that refuted your argument.
Because you haven’t thought it through.
Nixon was popular and he was also on the ticket.
But what crippled McGovern was that he was the nominee of a party that was coming apart. Part of Nixon’s popularity was a result of people looking at the alternative, just as the same can be said today for Clinton’s support.
I don’t think the Dems stand a better chance if they split over Sanders or if somehow Clinton begins losing institutional support.
If fact, the fact that Clinton has high unfavorables and that Sanders will also suffer high unfavorables is a good argument for not weakening the one strength the left has, which is their relative stability and unity.
Stop trying to tell those that were there and conscious what crippled McGovern. We know and still remember it all. You don’t even exhibit an ability integrate the facts of “Watergate” into that election which is exactly what “Watergate” was mostly about.
Democrats are stable and unified? Not of their own accord; not in my lifetime. If we’re so unified, explain how that unity helped Carter in 1980. He was a good enough Democrat. Where’d all those unified Democrats go when it came time to re-elect him in 1979-80? To being the Republicans they were born to be, that they were when they elected Eisenhower twice, and Nixon twice, and the rest of them never looked back.
Democratic unity. Talk about bullshit.
What NealB and fladem said. However, what always gets airbrushed out of the picture is that the DEM elites and institutions did whatever they could to defeat McGovern, but most did it out of the sight of the public. At that time it wasn’t so much general economic considerations that led to their rejection of McGovern but it was the maintenance of the US MIC as the predominate global military force.
True. That was the rationale.
I’m not sure that was in George Meany’s top 5 rationales for sinking McGovern. Or the Teamsters. Or the many Democratic mayors who sabotaged him.
Duh? Local industries?
Is a very good reason why defense industries are/were widely dispersed.
Dispersed differently today than they were back then. Much of CA was built on the back of the defense industry. Little of that remains.
Of course it was. And was correctly perceived in real time.
I remember union guys going after war protesters in demonstrations. It primed the flood for blue collar workers when Reagan came along.
Remember the Hard Hat Riot of 1970?
Thank Arthur Bremer for 1972.
Let’s not thank anyone that uses violence to change the existing political dynamics.
That said, in 1972 the DEM party could have ended up facing what the GOP may have to deal with in ’16. Wallace could have entered the convention with the most delegates. That was the real lose-lose DEM scenario in ’72. Under that one, Nixon would have received fewer electoral votes but his popular vote margin have been historically stratospheric.
To anyone with a knowledge of the Southern Democrats departure in the period this is an idiotic response.
I don’t get what’s idiotic about it.
The party w/o the southern Democrats was divided and weak, and it got thumped as a result. But it wasn’t just southerners who broke with McGovern. It was labor and urban mayors and bosses.
the right wing noise machine made/exposed the Clintons support of every war out there. I don’t know which, but as far as I can tell Hillary has never met a war she didn’t like
I tend to agree, HRC would be better than any Republican, but the real question is, ” How much better?”
Is she an interventionist like the GOP NeoCons? Yes.
Is she cozy with the banks and Wall St, like GOP? Yes.
Will she compromise long held Dem positions for political advantage (like Bill)? Probably.
Is she too cute by half (private email servers, private talks to the bankster class, etc…) Yes.
Can we look forward to 4 or 8 years of media thrashing out perceived and self provoked scandals. Yes.
Personally, as said before, anyone who would vote for war just to prove she has the “balls” and protect any future run for higher office, causes me real hesitation in approving her for that higher office.
But would she be better than any Republican? Yes.
R
Oh the Scalia seat is more than enough to vote for her.
But her policies won’t reverse Dem problems at either the State level or with the House.
Even that, no guaranty. Would her SCOTUS pick be someone committed to personal rights or be a “moderate” concerned with corporate rights? What about push back against the Security State? How would he rule in the upcoming Apple case? While I sympathize, there are other issues besides women’s choice.
I told my female relatives in ’08 that the nominee had to be Obama so the margin of victory in certain states would be too large to steal the election. Wasn’t convinced HRC could generate the necessary enthusiasm to create those numbers.
The same argument could be made today.
R
Exactly. Elena Kagan is about as far right as I can tolerate on corporatism. Very hinky on rights of accused, too–voted to water down Miranda. Was a reason Scalia advanced her.
We have to continue to hope that Kagan grows in the right direction while in office. Some have. The best that can be said for the rightwing justices over the past few decades is that they haven’t shifted further to the right while on the court. They’ve gone in and come out with no change.
Of course I mean guarantee. Lunch and spell check combine to confound me.
Was Ginsburg’s most vocal supporter in President’s Clinton’s inner circle I think we have a good answer for that.
Not sure about “better than any Republican,” but would concede “not worse than any Republican.” Although as it turned out Bill Clinton may have been worse than a second GHWB term might have been. That assumes that DEMs didn’t lose Congress in ’94 and Congress continued to reject NAFTA and a capital gains tax reduction, policies near and dear to GHWB. And Bill Clinton as it turns out; no wonder they’ve become chummy.
>>the real question is, ” How much better?”
if you studied calculus you might remember the delta-epsilon proof. That number epsilon that is smaller than any number you can name, that’s how much better.
lol right, she may go to jail like Trafficant, but I don’t think she is insane
Excuse, are you saying that Clinton supporters would NOT support the other candidate? After all the accusations that invested DFHs would not come out for neoliberal candidates? Quelle suprise.
With Turks over the border in Iraq and an invasion force in Northern Saudi having war games…
Maybe it will all be a smoking ruin by the time she would take office…
The same can be said about Iran. I mean, seriously, does anyone honestly believe she’d have accomplished what he did on Iran?
This is why I backed Obama in 2008. I had no illusions about his domestic neoliberalism, but I trusted his judgment far more on issues such as these than Clinton the Hawk. Which isn’t to say that he’s a dove (neither is Sanders). But they’re both magnitudes better than Clinton.
No, she wouldn’t have, definitely not. She must have known what was coming when she stepped down as SoS. If president, in fact, she will do her best, in cooperation with Israel, to undo what Obama accomplished regarding Iran. Try to square that circle, she might say in her sleep, by waging aggressive and unprovoked war, as in Libya and Iraq.
That one sure drew out all the war hawks that hang at leftie blog sites. Weren’t so many participants back in 2002/3 and therefore, these warhawks could do a Trump — claim that they opposed the Iraq War and get away with their lie (not a lie because they surely have convinced themselves that they opposed it; just like by August ’74 nobody had voted for Nixon). Seemed like a majority at dKos favored of bombing Libya, but that perception could have been distorted by the stridency of their approval. (Just so nobody ever forgets, Meteor Blades was on board with it. Demonstrating that one’s principles can easily be cast aside when one has a personal interest in toppling the government of foreign countries.)
This shouldn’t hurt Clinton because the truth is that she’s within the fold of the majority of DEM voters when it comes to a question of making war and that’s the majority she needs to win the nomination. (The Senate DEM split on pro v. anti Iraq War appears to be in line with DEM voters. Slightly more pro than anti when it’s a DEM administration that is pushing for war to effect a regime change. The pro-war DEM Senators in 2002 simply chose not to be hypocrites; “war is good” regardless if it’s a DEM or GOP administration.
It’s impossible to project the specific outcomes of a regime change war proposal other than that a lot of people are going to suffer and things won’t be better (odds are it will be worse) after outsiders get through with doing by force what they intended. (Why does Clinton get a pass on facilitating the coup in Honduras? Kissinger has been an actual mentor to her. But again, it’s a truth that Clinton supporters either deny or are too chicken to expose their own bloodlust. These are not my friends.)
Oh I had plenty of people in my circles supporting the bombing campaign of Libya for the same reasons as Anne-Marie Slaughter. They’re also all backing Clinton. Surprise!
They also supported arming Syrian Rebels. In fact, they don’t support that now because “Obama waffled and the window closed”. They were ready to get their war on. As Kevin Alexander Gray said, neocons and neoliberals mostly disagree over who should be in charge of the wars, not because of any ideological disagreement in policy.
How on earth do you end up wishing Libya had come out more like Syria? Of our two examples, Libya is far less messed up – by a factor of 100 or so if you’re looking at casualties. Libya post-Qaddafi-massacre would have been destabilized exactly as is was post-overthrow- by Gulf Arab states supporting Salafist rebels, and they would have had overwhelming moral authority as well.
This is a tautological argument that I don’t agree with.
But, if true, it just means my choice was between a Libya we were responsible for creating and one we were not responsible for creating.
In other words, Syria vs. Iraq.
Only, with Syria, we’re still responsible because of our responsibility for Iraq.
I’d take “no responsibility” over any in this case.
Wow, that would make a great apologia for Republican policies. Give food stamps to poor people? Sure most of them will use them to feed their families. But maybe 1 in a 100 will sell them for drugs. Wouldn’t want to be “responsible” for that! Just let ’em all starve.
what?
That doesn’t even exist in the same solar system as anything coherent.
You’re saying you wouldn’t have supported an intervention in Syria which reduced the deaths by 99% (by producing a Libya outcome rather than a Syria one) because you’d be “responsible” for the 1% who died.
That’s pretty directly analogous not supporting giving money to the poor because for every 99 people you save from starvation, one dies by misuse of the money.
Boo, the US is always responsible, whether we act or not. Not acting is also a poiicy (see Rwanda). Things turned out badly in Libya, but there was no certainty that that had to happen at the time. If the US and allies hadn’t intervened, there is no certaiinty that things would be better now.
The only certainty is that either way, the US will be blamed (in some quarters) when things go south.
The resultant clusterf*ck that accompanies our investment in local “democratic uprisings” is coming to be seen by many in developing countries as a feature, not a bug.
You think this is unwarranted?
was a blog entry you wrote just over a week ago. http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2016/2/20/12734/4158
Here is a quote from it
“But I haven’t forgotten how people misjudged another guy who said he wanted to massacre a religious minority.
That’s why I think we ought to err on the side of caution and take him at his word.”
Does that advice only count when it comes to Trump?
Just to be absolutely clear – Gaddafi was making genocidal threats both overtly (saying he would go house to house) and by using the language of the Darfur genocide (calling his opponents cockroaches). A genocide by the way that he helped finance.
We saw what happened when threats like that we ignored in Darfur. President Clinton has often referred to it as his biggest regret in office. And it should be.
Now am I saying Libya is in a good place? Absolutely not but I am also saying that the Europeans, with our support, had not intervened there was a very good chance we would have seen a repeat of Darfur.
that’s is such crap.
Just on death toll alone, what has actually happened dwarfs anything Gaddafi was threatening to do.
It’s now been revised from thousands of protesters killed by Gaddafi down to 350.
Libya is a tribal society, but it’s not sectarian. There was never going to be a Darfur in Libya, or a Rwanda.
But, as I said over and over at the time, my problem wasn’t with the humanitarian impulse. My problem was that what we were going to do was going to make things worse.
threats seriously. Especially since he played no small part in the Darfur genocide.
Call it me following your advice 5 years before you gave it.
President Clinton refers to his failure to act in the Rwandan genocide (1994) as his biggest regret in office. There is also questions on whether Gaddafi helped finance some of it but those ties are much more tenuous than the role he played in Darfur genocide (2003)
Every Clinton supporter I know is concerned about her hawkish tendencies. We’re not stupid or ignorant. We’re just more concerned about the GOP, and think she’s the best chance for stopping them.
I’m glad to learn about your concern (this is said genuinely, not snark) about Clinton’s hawkish ways.
Unfortunately, the D Voters I know are all up with being a HAWK and going to WAR WAR WAR if it’s a D POTUS. That’s just my experience. Believe me, I’ve had many many many discussions about this w/D voter friends and acquaintances. They fall into the IOKIYAD syndrome.
Me no likey.
Always odd to me how HRC cloaks herself as the true defender of BHO, when IIRC he ran against her. And won.
If BHO were to endorse Bernie, we’d have a chance. Too bad BHO is not that guy…
He never was, but in ’08 that couldn’t have been known for sure and he did run on “hope.” (“Hope” needs to be retired from DEM POTUS candidates’ campaigns for at least the next hundred years.) Still, it was clear enough that he wouldn’t be worse than Clinton and on a few issues just enough better that taking a chance on him was the right way to go.
I don’t think a buncha non-American strangers getting killed, or killing each other, is a very high price to pay to burnish the reputation of the United States as a high-minded, principled, moderate, circumspect, hegemon. Besides, they’re not Americans…
To make the point easier to grasp, I think we should move, say, a quarter of a million troops near to the affected region, and then move them right back home again, to show that while we could massively intervene, we refuse to, because we’re just that responsible.
We could call it ‘R2P’ — Responsibility to Posture.
Hmm, you recon that is what the Saudis are doing right now?
“There was one arsenal that we thought had 20,000 shoulder-fired, surface-to-air missiles, SA-7s, that basically just disappeared into the maw of the Middle East and North Africa,” recalled Robert M. Gates, the American defense secretary at the time…”
Cui bono?
What’s a great way of arming ISIS? Well, you could, as SOS, approve of a nice big arms deal with Qatar in exchange for a handsome donation to your Foundation. Or, in the heat of battle you could look the other way when the bad guys who we support sneak off with them.
It’s been seventy years now. How long before we admit that mistakes and oversights by the CIA are merely parts of their business plan?