Sweeping generalizations by an individual, in a blog diary, in the media, or by a government are ALWAYS wrong. There are so many times that a few people have spouted hateful comments and generalizations about the United States, about Republicans, about Democrats, about Arabs and Muslims, about Christians, about anything ‘they’ don’t like. What happens is always predictable – attack and counter-attack.
During the past 2 months I have watched this blog from the sidelines and participated in the ‘big’ blog. The attacks are by a few…and participated in by the many. So – it looks like those that spew the rhetoric of hate are sowing the seeds of discontent and distrust that keeps them in power. Or maybe it just salves their egos to be one that has the power to disrupt.
All major theologies teach lessons of tolerance and patience and peace. Generically here I will include Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hindu, Shinto…and so many others. I believe, and this is a big jump for some, that almost all of us want peace and are basically compassionate caring people.
So what happens?
- Many of us have been fighting for decades for peace. We have worked for the good of humankind – around the world – for all these years.
- Many of us have been working for political change for years and years. Some are new to the political process but they are jumping into the fray with their heart and soul.
- Many of us are religious and have worked with our respective churches for peace and compassion around the world.
- Many of us are painfully aware that governments – of many countries – do not represent the will of their people.
- Many of us are tired of the few that make claims and assertions that a brash and hateful generalizations about any people or country.
- Many of us are no longer willing to turn the other cheek and being caring and compassionate to the hateful. We will fight for the dignity of accuracy and integrity in words and speech.
Now what?
We have choices if we are we willing to exercise those choices.
Do we tolerate hate and hateful speech or do we call for peaceful solutions?
Do we tolerate rhetoric or ask for specific points of fact?
Do we walk the walk and promote peace and change or do we accept the status quo?
This is not a political diary it is philosophical discussion of where we choose to be.
This is not an open forum for more rhetoric…but a forum for what we see and expect of ourselves and the world around us.
What choices do we choose to make?
Recently a question was posed as to which leader of any country or any religious group could be seen as a peacemaker and a leader for change.
I came up with only 3:
Ghandi
Martin Luther King, Jr.
Jimmy Carter, as Statesman
It is a sad commentary that in the past 50-60 years no major leaders were at the forefront of peace. We need leaders and speakers for peace…not for hate.
As far as change goes, I might add FDR to that list.
of FDR – excluding WWII?
I know what his impact is to the U.S. with the New Deal and other programs. How did these change a world view on issues or circumstances?
Along the lines of:
Ghandi – taught us non-violent resistance and peace
MLK Jr. – taught the world more non-violent resistance and that minorities can have a voice if they stand together peacefully.
Jimmy Carter – well he just keeps working for peace and legal elections around the world.
Maybe my focus was too narrow. I was thinking of the beginning of the social safety net.
As to Carter, he might have spared my life, and definetly did spare the lives of thusands of my fellow citizens.
I might also add Mandela and Archbisphop Tutu.
Mandela and Archbishop Tutu worked for peaceful change within a single country that echoed around the world.
Thanks for the additions!
the Dalai Lama?
His impact is very powerful to a major portion of the world. It is sad that so much of his teachings are not known to more people.
Great choice for the list Maryb…
because I found this concerning news from The Independent via Catnip’s Blog.
I don’t know how old he is, but I hope his “complete rest” works.
George Bush and the Dalai Lama born on the same day? Boggles my mind.
There’s this balance in nature, you understand….
Does Vaclav Havel deserve to be on the list?
There were so many parts to Havel that were profound towards change and leadership for change – at least in the 1970s or so. His writings were catalyst for so many ideals that resonated among the people.
Yet: one of his last actions as President of the Czech Republic was to support George W. Bush and his actions in Iraq.
So – my answer would be no…he was inconsistent in his goals and actions for peace at the end of his Presidency.
Fair enough. I was so disappointed in him then that I’d suppressed the memory. As I recall now, his support was pretty tepid — but it was support.
There was a priceless photo taken at a joint press conference they gave; I wish I could find it — it’s stored on another computer that doesn’t work most of the time. Bush was speaking and Havel was standing off to the side looking at him. The latter’s expression was priceless; a mingling of utter disdain and wonderment that this person could be where he was. I gave it my own caption: “What if they scheduled a meeting of the minds and only one showed up?”
Still, I guess you’re right. That should be a disqualifier.
It confused and disappointed me at the time.
For me I felt he was trying to get greater recognition for the Czech people from the U.S. Seeking good for through misguided political reasons.
Through the decades before he was a strong leader and idealist to believe in. I believe that history will treat him generously in the long term. So much good was done…
Let’s give him an honorable mention – for all that went before.
“Honorable mention” — a perfect solution. (I was thinking of giving him an asterisk, as they do with “tainted” sports records, but I don’t think that’s a strong enough “downrating”.)
…Olaf Palme, Desmond Tutu, Alva Myrdal, Oscar Arias Sanchez, the Dalai Lama, Doctors without Borders, Aung San Suu Kyi.
I was just reminded again today of the anti-colonialist, poet (founder of the negritude movement, and first President of Senegal, Leopold Senghor.
I’d add Cesar Chavez & Thich Nhat Hanh.
We pooties have been waiting so very patiently for your return! Hope the grandkiddes are well!
Thanks for the great diary, these are the key issues and, as you mention, directly concern my letter to my sister, posted just after you posted this one.
I’ve also been working on a longish piece that concerns the overuse of the designation “troll” which IMHO is dehumanizing and had no place in civilized discourse. There’s way too much at stake for us to resort to childish name-calling, and I think we need to grow up the faster the better.
I agree with the use of the term ‘troll’ as being overused – at least on the ‘big’ site. Perhaps we can come up with another term that adequately describes disruptive and hateful diarists and commenters.
Dehumanizing is an interesting word in this diary scenario. Since the premise of a troll is that they create the level of rhetoric and generalizations that dehumanize those that disagree it might be a good word.
What I’m trying to do is find a way to stop the dehumanizing created by generalizations….
Things have come a long way in a years time for me. Next month it will be the one year birthday of America standing at Crawford and My God how things have changed. It feels like a lifetime for me, it was a lifetime ago when people whispered their unsureness about this Iraq stuff. Forget about calling it an illegal war or any such thing, forget about demanding PEACE with an air of confidence and Democrats giving ProWar Dems the toss (bye bye Joe), and Bush dropping like a stone. When I think that it has only been a year getting from point “A” to here it takes my breath away. All of us standing in that ditch wondering if we would be arrested, the secret service snapping photos trying to intimidate us and news trucks and reporters and rain and portapotties and taking a bath with babywipes……and then that rally when America came to stand with us and all I could do was stand there and cry. I have seen the best of people who live in my country. I know it’s hard to believe but there are amazing intelligent peace loving energy conserving child nurturing people who are even Texans…….who knew? Meeting each other and marching in D.C., creating an infrastructure of PEACE that has been built upon every day since! I’m proud to be an American today, but I don’t think I’m George Bush’s idea of an American who deserves to be proud. He’s only president though, he isn’t God! I think that I used to think he was God though….of ever considering that he wielded that kind of power and ability to control me – of that I am ashamed but I didn’t let it lie. I got up and did something along with all of these other people and it was a day by day thing, and some days seemed hopeless but we continued on day by day and I woke up today and looked back…..looked behind me at the road that has been traveled, and I am astounded as hell at us all! I am reminded also that after Crawford’s birthday will come Katrina’s birthday too and all I really have is today and the day by day way I choose to live and I choose to ask questions and I choose to demand accountability and answers and I see that America is taking out a would be dictator all by her little ole self!
Recently my husband recalled that when Bush was elected in 2000 the thought was ‘what can one man do in 4 years?’ Well, 5+ years later he is appalled and fighting as hard as I am for change.
He is a quiet, soft spoken man that has the compassion of the world inside of him…and a long fuse before he gets angry. He is angry now with me, and you, and so many others. He is no longer soft spoken about the evils of this government. He is fighting with you for an end to this war and the corruption. The diaries from Crawford and Washington DC touched many of us on levels so deep we can feel it still now. If there was another march – he would be with standing with you.
We are no longer turning the other cheek to those that create this hate among differing people. So many of us are standing and demanding accountability. Accountability from our government, from complicit governments, from the media, and from any that will stand and make broad generalizations.
Thank you for your fight and passion and your heart. We are with you….thank you for being here.
I agree Tracy…this is a very beautiful diary. I also have to look back a year and how far we all have come and so much has been accomplished. Not as much as most of us would like but slowly but surely, we shall overcome. It will take a long time to heal our country but it WILL happen because of people like you Sally and you Tracy. You both have been great inspirations to me. Thank you both for your dedication and wisdom that you share with us. I have hope becausee of it!!
This was a very interesting dairy to read today. The first thing that came to my mind was is:
I believe the simple philosophy in this prayer shows us all the way to deal with generalizations and the way leaders project their will on the peoples they lead.
Maybe I am being too simple with this but I just feel the KISS (Keep It Simple, Silly) principle would solve the world’s problems.
That prayer that I usually only say when I have been brought to my knees and there is no where left to turn and everything is intolerable and painful. That prayer that frees up my energy for what really matters and expands it exponentially in ways I never dreamed! I wish I could give you five 4’s for this.
MT, it’s so hard for me to imagine you truly brought to your knees because you always exude optimism even when you are justifiably angry about what’s going on in this world.
I just wanted you to know that I respect you for maintaining that optimism when it would be so easy to give in to negativity and pessimism. Because without optimism, I don’t see how any truly effective action is possible.
You just caused me to think about Bill Mitchell again at Crawford and how no matter how scared I was sometimes, whenever he was around I knew right down to my toes that we would be okay. These assholes scared the crap out of everybody last year….they had 9/11 in their arsenal and it was used to justify EVERYTHING so who knew what they thought they could get away with? And on Sunday the Vietnam Vets were going to start their walk onto the ranch after Thursday came and went and no one was arrested. After the rally and some CNN coverage they were going to be arrested and who ever wanted to go with them could. I was ready, I was going…….but something that nobody anticipated happened and thousands and thousands of people came. Everybody stood around gawking at each other….what the hell do you do after this…..you don’t take the most amazing beautiful party the God’s ever conspired to throw and end it with getting arrested do you? It’s time to pass out canapes damn it! And so they did……..canape anyone?
I agree with you wholeheartedly, maryb. If someone has no hope for the future, why do anything? And as Nag said below, all that hot air of negativity just sucks the oxygen right out of me.
I appreciate your efforts and strength of character to actively fight for your beliefs. This prayer is my daily call to see what can be done and trust in God for the rest.
A new day is dawning!!!
Thank you for this diary, SallyCat. That’s all. Thank you.
All that hot air blowing around sucks the oxygen right out of me.
It’s so hard not to feel defeated and helpless when you’re told that everything you believe, everything you fight for, all your hopes amounts to nothing but a hateful generalization. The most that I can do is to live by my own ideals with all my heart. If that involves political activism to try and change things, then great. My problem is that I get depressed when I see how hopeless the situation in our country looks, despite my best efforts.
I read Tracy’s comment and feel proud to know her, even if it’s only through this blog. I stand with her. We are stronger when we stand together, and that counts for attacks from within. Why would someone attack our community? To weaken us, to sow defeatism, to destroy our hope. If we didn’t hold hope in our hearts that the nightmare that is the US government could be changed we wouldn’t be here. It is people like us… millions of us… who will change things. By attacking our integrity and motives, they attack the only hope this country has of pulling away from the horrible course we’re on.
Ignore ’em. I proudly take my place alongside you, SallyCat, and you, Tracy and all of you who continue to fight with all we’ve got to take our country back.
This I know because I was scared to say anything and I just shut the door behind me every day and sat behind it and hurt. This entire nation was a hostage eleven short months ago and Bush was great in the polls and the Republicans reigned supreme. Those days are drawing to a close, and the longer it takes the stronger OUR infrastructure becomes because it is built out of need and hardship and hunger and the pains of death and it just keeps building and building! Hell girl, we are starting to throw the “bad” Democrats out with the trash!
Fear of the unknown and each other is the strongest weapon used against any people. We were all subjected to that fear and anger and unfortunately a lot of people bought into it.
We are stronger and more vocal than before. Sometimes we need strategic retreats away from the battle lines to let the smoke clear and regroup. We come back stronger each time with reinforcements.
The sense of community in the blogosphere…around the world…gives us hope that we are all fighting for justice and peace. Last night I sat with my husband followed the election results in Mexico…on a blog. We know the issues and the candidates…because people care and share.
I’m pleased to be here with you Tracy, and Nag, and just so many that are here. Each of us touches the other for good or bad. I’d like to continue to believe we are fighting for good. We are growing and changing – not as one nation or group of people…but as a world together.
I just try to stay out of the loop of blog politics. It’s better for me that way. No, I’m not being an ostrich… it’s just I need to keep my batteries charged for other matters and there’s others here who can carry the torch…
I’m very sad today. Sad and angry and I’ve angrily written my tears onto posts… Today… Lt. Ehren Watada is being charged and will face up to 8 years in jail.
My heart is breaking… right now. I try to be strong. Strong by even showing my weakness my fears… but right now folks… this just feels like a kick to my heart. It’s even hard to swallow, you know.
GAWWWWWWWWWWWWD I met this man. He tried to console Danni when she started to cry when she went up to him… She was sad he would have to be alone, might go to prison…
FUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!! FUCK FUCK … what is wrong with this fucking picture??? I don’t know what to say to her. I haven’t been able to tell her much of anything when she asks me the hardestest yet simplest quetions. That is why I march. That is why I act, write, yell, scream, place my vertigo ass on fucking bridges!!!
Please… I am so sorry but my heart feels like it’s breaking and I need you guys. There’s so much fucking fighting. My issues, their issues. Whose issues… It’s like a fucking Dr. Seuss game in blogs sometimes… and
Ehren is going to jail.
Loved ones are going to wars.
Friends are being arrested.
Janet my heart breaks for you and for Lt. Watada and Danni and so many.
Yet I’ll ask you to be strong and be proud of Lt. Watada. He is a man of convictions and a man seeking peace. A person of ideals willing to accept the punishment from an unjust system for his beliefs. So many others before…simple people making a stand…MLK Jr. in jail, Mandela in jail, Malcom X in jail. They were in jail before they were well known…yet they became known to the world.
We’ll hold Lt. Watada in our hearts and minds…and not let his actions be in vain. We’ll keep fighting for peace…and a pardon for those willing to stand for their beliefs.
Hugs DJ…be strong and be proud of his actions.
Thank you my friend. I’m sorry for barging in this…
Americans don’t all suck. We don’t. My tears and runny nose and complete fucking verge of just wanting to breakdown should be some small sign that we do care and we are aware and we are trying to stop this craziness. My country isn’t perfect holy shit I know that. That is why my heart breaks as it does. That is why my tender feet have blood blisters on them. That is why I’m willing to shrink from my own personal needs and safety and try do something.
I am an American… I am America. I am a part of this planet.
and your family…and Lt. Watada…and Tracy and her family…and the CodePINKers and VFPs and all the other groups out there talking and fighting that make me proud to be an American.
And I have to believe that there are far more of “us” than there are of “them”…far more Americans are opposed to this stupid war and Bush’s stupid policies (foreign and domestic), but they’re still too scared to speak, or they (we) haven’t found their (our) voice or the outlet to express it. The day will come, though, when the multitudes will be silent no more…and in the words of Mrs. Loman in Death of a Salesman, “Attention must be paid.”
I think I know the diary that Sally is referencing here…and I refused to click on it. My doctor wants me to keep the blood pressure down. 🙂
Blessings and peace to you and yours…yeah, even Wesley… 😉
I got up. Heard the news. Checked our hockey site… and saw the “crap” directed at Liberals. Pushed me over the edge perhaps.
I felt bad at first for bawling in Sally’s diary about division and hate… but.. you know what… This is probably the best diary to regroup in.
Not sure what I can lend other than moral support…or maybe “immoral” in my case… 😉
But I feel safe amongst you all here.
It’s like a culmination of all that I do try to do… on this one thing and it for what? An article on page 8 of the Oregonian? That after all this he’s going to prison.
I wrote. I called. I got involved. I got involved in getting others aware and involved. I made signs, hell Danni made signs. We hung banners. We called the base.
I stood near a base gate while people made troat slit gestures, while they flipped me off, called me names like FUCKING CUNT! I stood till I came home to vomit. I took three showers to get the smell of the highway off me. My friends were spat at. People threw our pamphlets back at us. They circled around and around to continue to scream at us.
I wrote Wyden. I wrote the media. I sent out press releases. I spoke to reproters. I sent follow up press releases.
And today me and Danni sit in shock.
Yes… it’s about peace and personal growth… I’ve changed dramatically with every passing week this President has sat on his stolen throne… but I had wanted so much to help in some small way to keep Lt. Watada out of jail. To support those who have no voice and have the strongest things to say. This war is illegal I will not fight it.
I’m sorry for blabbering in here… but I’m prone to finding safety zones and havens because there ain’t much of them out there anymore for a silly woman, with a pink shirt and signs that say things from her heart.
The question posed asked what we are doing with our choices on the rhetoric. You answered by living your effort to make a difference…one person at a time.
You are sharing you pain here because that is what community is about. We each have been there with you in your diaries, we have felt the pain and anger and frustration, and we are all saddened by the government actions.
You are making a difference. Fighting for change and justice is what we are all about. Take some time to regroup…let your heart and soul heal some…you’ll come back stronger than ever. We are always right here for you and any one that needs our support.
Sorry, had to get the pizzas out of the oven… I swear that’s all I’ve been making for my kids lately… (insert mom guilt version 3.1,22394)
I’m not done. Just down.
There’s going to be things we can do, call, send letters of support. I’ll be there when he’s released.
released! I cried when Kevin Benderman went too Janet but he taught me a lot…..jail isn’t the worst thing that can happen to any of us.
I’m gonna need your inside knowledge of how this works when the dust settles and we no more. Where he wil be sent. What can be sent to him… all that jazz. Okay?
Friend from CodePink just emailed me as they knew I had really taken this one on. I popped my pink cherry on this one. Even had to learn how to do PR and shit which I learned a big lesson about.
Anyways when the dust settles and we know more – there will be more campaigns. Maybe not National Level… but one Pink Lady will be continuing to make sure he’s remembered and cared for.
These are my marching orders.
OK, so you didn’t succeed in keeping Lt. Watada out of jail. He’s not the first person to go to jail for a principle, and he won’t be the last. But you put your heart and soul into it, and you know what? Now you have a failure you can be proud of. You have done the right thing, even if you didn’t get the results you wanted.
Small consolation, I know, but who knows whether you might not have made just one of those people who drove by think a little. And when we get people to think, we win.
I’ve been so upset about the attrocities and wondering what they’ll get for time and here Watada is doing time. I know life’s not fair, gawd I know that… but I just wanted some sign that we aren’t just bashing ourselves up against a brick wall.
I assure you I’m not giving up on this one. Not yet. And even if he goes for the full 8 years or even 1 yaer, I will continue to say it was wrong and I will be there when he gets out.
So.. a party for when we bust out this regime in DC and another party for when Watada is returned to us.
too Janet. To face the abyss and to be inconvenienced for the greatest truths in our lifetimes, arms and feeds our higher selves. This won’t be fun but Lt. Watada will never be the same old person he was before this. He has been tested and found not LACKING!
(((Janet)))
You did your best and I’m sure Danni is as proud of you as we all are.
Tell her about Martin Luther King Jr. and how he was willing to go to jail for his beliefs. And Nelson Mandela. And Ghandi.
And the whole time they were in jail, there were good people who kept up the fight and wouldn’t let the world forget them or the fact they were in jail.
Don’t lose hope.
But I’m not sure I did all I could do. It’s hard to do everything and sometimes that’s what it takes. Yes, I tried to do as much as I could do.
Maybe I should have laid out in the street you know. I feel like I let him down, as well as me down. But I jsut didn’t think getting arrested in such a martyrous way was good for anyone including Watada or the movement.
It’s so frustrating to show up with six people and know that those six people are going to have to give more than 100% to cover the lacking. It’s draining. And yet you gotta get up and figure out what to do next.
I’ll find out where he’ll be sent. Not sure if it’ll be close by. I’d like to be able to send letters, make visits if I could. Find out what can be brought to him. I’m just reeling, you know Mary.
this really sucks. And I know my tears are somewhat selfish ones right now. I’m not completely thinking of Ehren or his family or what this says to the rest of the officers who were thinking of standing up and saying no. Right now I’m being a pansy ass whiner.
But I’ll get a grip. I can’t come in here and pretend I’m some tough, hard core activist who has it under control. Cause I am SO not that. I was thinking last night about the accolades and it’s just not so. The other CodePink ladies don’t seem to be as scared or introspective. They just haul ass and go, man. They’re incredible. They know so so SO much. They lend me books and DVDs so I can one day catch up. LOL. I’m just a newbie and this one… this one really hurt. But.. it aint over. XOXOXOXO
He knew what he was doing babe. He knew what he was risking and had weighed it all out for himself and he was/is ready for the worst! He asked you guys to stand with him and he asked you to fight with him, and you guys did! I have a funny feeling about this guy though…….he’s one of those guys who they are going to wish they just quietly let go of if they could have. I’m not sure he would have allowed them to get away with that though! Where warmongers are concerned though they are fashioning something that will prove to be their own undoing in the end.
he wasn’t going awol he wasn’t saying after all this time he was a conscientious objector. He said he’d figh in Afghanistan… (which made him lose some of the anti-war folks) but what sparked me was that he was an officer, a warrior willing to fight, kill and die… but not for a LIE.
This is what was so different about him. This is what set him apart.
I support those who run from this lie… but it’s even as important to stand up with those who let it be known that Iraq is wrong. Bush lied.
That I don’t consider taking action on the Taliban in Afghanistan warmongering. Stacking them up at Gitmo and military courts and ignoring the Geneva Convention not okay, firing our military leaders in the Pentagon who had ethics and morals because they might not slaughter very well not okay……the people in the twin towers though did not deserve to die and governments that aid in organizing such things are accountable in my book.
Oh that’s not what I mean Tracy. I meant that he would go and fight in Afghanistan. I had no issues with that really, but many many did.
I’m anti-war… yes. But the bigger picture is that this man stood up against the “war” in Iraq. That’s what I had to focus on.
DJ, thanks for all your efforts and diaries. They have truly been an inspiration as we get to see things through your eyes. Rest assured that your efforts have not been in vain.
I play hard. I protest hard. and sometimes that means I crash hard.
And thanks for the photo fun diary the other day. 🙂
Please hang in there my friend. Know that all you do and say and write is appreciated. Please also let us know when you find out where the LT will be kept and how we can go about wrting him and supporting him. Know that I love and admire you girl. Don’t ever forget that, EVER!!
You have no idea how much I’ve missed you!!!! Cripes, I was just asking about you on the phone to Sally last night when she called me.
My world’s more stable when I know you’re near. 🙂 And yes I will let you know whassup when I get a clue as to what exactly needs to be done and what I am going to do and how you all can do a part of it, too.
You have my email and home phone girlfriend so call anytime you need to talk. I have missed you too!! I have been mostly lurking but I am feeling really good these days. I have been a nonsmoker 6 weeks tomorrow. I never thought I would be able to quit so this is a freaken miracle.
Sorry, didn’t mean to make this comment about me. I just want you to know I am here for you always! Take care of yourself!
6 weeks!! That’s fantastic!!! You righteous surfer woman, you!!!!! Er… I lost your number. I’m horrid about that organized stuff.
These diaries are about all of us. Otherwise, what’s the point, right? 🙂
I’m so glad you’re mending.
I will email you when I get home from work with phone#. Love you girl!
DJ:for what I’ve read so far, you are just getting started. The should have,could have, would havewill do you no good. Instead look at it as: Now what? And don’t give up.
My own take on a topic closely related to that of DF’s post was posted on Memorial Day. It is harshly critical not just of the Bush administration but of generalized aspects of US cultural mentality with respect to war. If I may say so, I think it shows that one cas express such ideas without rhetorically painting Americans as a lesser form of humanity.
As compassionate citizens of the world, as well as being U.S. citizens, we need to have an open dialogue about the problems that we are confronting. Those of us that participate in blogs are painfully aware of the wrongs perpetrated in the name of America.
Your diary touched on historical issues as well as moral issues. I would like to think that we can have a reasoned series of diaries on both topics.
Right now I’m trying to put the focus on which choice we want to make…rhetoric or discussion. One person or one issue at a time or generalizations.
Thank you for the link to your diary it was very thoughtful and insightful. I’ll read all the comments in depth tonight.
Thank you, thank you, thank you. I wanted to write these ideas on the diary that inspired yours, but couldn’t bring myself to comment.
We are all capable of being better than this.
I abhor stereotypes of any kind, even of Americans. I was thinking recently that I decided to study Russian when it was politically incorrect to like Russians. I’ve just never seen vast generalizations about an entire country to be constructive in any way whatsoever. What has it ever accomplished? Nothing.
I share the shame & disgust that most of the world has in response to much of America’s policies and cultural values. I couldn’t even celebrate the 4th. But the only way to reverse those policies and improve those lifestyles is to find out why they exist & persist and work to eradicate those root causes. Saying things like “Americans cannot be reasoned with” might feel cathartic, and I certainly utter my daily share of epithets aimed at Americans who commit all kinds of crimes against decency. But while they might help me deal with momentary fits of anger and frustration, they do nothing to improve anyone’s situation. And in fact, they even work to cement the divide between the various US and THEMs.
In short, writing anyone off is almost a self-fullfilling prophecy. Who values the opinions of those who have no faith in them to begin with? Few. And so it is both counter-productive AND disingenuous. Writing off 300,000,000 unique individuals, most of whom you have never met, is intellectual laziness on a scale only George W. Bush could appreciate. Americans are many things, but a homogeonous monolith is NOT one of them.
And one more thing about statements writing off America: Those who say it can’t be done need to get the hell out of the way of those doing it.
At this point you are either part of the solution or part of the problem. And show me problem solved by ignorance and hate…
I don’t want to invalidate anyone’s anger. There are few who don’t have every right to be angry. It’s what we do with that anger that is the difference between good and evil.
“Writing off 300,000,000 unique individuals, most of whom you have never met, is intellectual laziness…”
Hey! Just a minute!
I’ve met a lot of Americans, lady!
“Those who say it can’t be done need to get the hell out of the way of those doing it.”
How’s France? Is that out of the way enough for you?
” But the only way to reverse those policies and improve those lifestyles is to find out why they exist & persist and work to eradicate those root causes.”
I threw my television out more than twenty years ago; I moved to France.
Really. I think I’ve done my part.
The rest is up to you guys.
As small creatures sharing this fragile world we are all entwined by our actions. So…as a butterfly flits is wings in France so shall there be a gentle breeze near my home in California.
You are fluttering your wings toward peace and understanding…we feel it and welcome it.
I know how you feel-I was at the Tibetan festival a couple weeks ago and when I stopped by the Amnesty International table and started reading and signing yet one more petition I broke down crying and couldn’t stop, totally incoherent too. And I’m a member so this wasn’t any new info.
The activist Rob los Rios just got out of prison after serving 7 (I think) years for allegedly throwing a rock at a cop in Eugene OR. He said that what kept him going was letters, letters, letters.
Do you remember the defiant additional verse, written during the McCarthy years, to the old hymn/folk song How Can I Keep From Singing?
…
In prison cell and dungeon vile,
Our thoughts to them are winging.
When friends by shame are undefiled,
How can I keep from singing?
We have to meet soon! 🙂
You know I think that’s what scares me the most about any public protest is that some nutcase not from the group will throw something and we’ll get busted for it. All it takes is one rock, bottle and a riot happens. It’s crazy.
I’m sorry if I sounded like I had lost my mind… I have this in order so I can go out.
“Sweeping generalizations by an individual, in a blog diary, in the media, or by a government are ALWAYS wrong.”
Good opening.
I re-wrote that three times and still went back to ‘that’ sweeping generalization. ;^)
Actually – my sweeping generalization is that most people, no matter where, are good intentioned and really want to do what is right. To that thought I hold tight as it keeps me fighting for this little blue orb we all call home.
Yeah, yeah, that’s what they all say.
;^)
This diary recommended by…
proximity1 and, oh, my—
BooMan
shirlstars
Meteor Blades
CabinGirl
alohaleezy
diane101
dada
Sirocco
Nag
boran2
Militarytracy
Damnit Janet
cruz del sur
Alice
Brementown Musician
shermanesqe
redwagon
mythmother
Kahli
poemless
KMc
esquimaux
Shalimar
maryb2004
Iowa Victory Gardener
Chris
…too!
You go, girl! ;^)
And this counts for what?
To do more of that which you are indirectly accusing DuctapeFatwa of, divisiveness?
I’ve learned a lot today and yesterday about priorities. And how to waste time.
of my diary and efforts and hope that was the intent.
There is a time to stop rhetoric and I was hoping that this diary would provide a path in that direction. So…I’ll presume proximity is enouraging my efforts…as others encourage other writers. I’m sorry you were offended by the comments. My presumption is that culturally proximity and I are working from different perspectives (France and U.S.) but for the same goals.
Peace supersoling…
Hey Sally, Super is just jealous because he wasn’t included. 🙂
Your question is a fair one.
Of what significance are the “recommendation”? Frankly, of little significance, since you asked.
The real import is in the arguments and their validity or lack of it. So, I can’t dispute you for posing the question.
As for any accusing DuctapeFatwa of divisiveness either directly or indirectly, on that charge, I plead, “not guilty“.
I am certainly not accusing him (or her) of any such thing and, to those who’d interpret my very lightly-made post above, to which your comment respond, as intended to support others accusations of DuctapeFatwa of being “divisive”, I expressly disavow any such intention. Phooey on that.
In a forum, the point is to argue it out; state your views and defend them–even change them when others show you that you’ve been mistaken.
Divisive? Yes, I’m for it. I want to divide the valid from the invalid, the reason from the nonsense; the blinded cult-worship from the clear-sighted fair appraisals which hold our own to account just as much as we hold those we oppose to account and let the chips fall where they may.
I’m sorry to have left any other impression with you.
I’ve often read with a great deal of reservation the recommendations of others. Their value can be easily overdone and that ought to be avoided.
You’ve attached a great deal of importance to a post I tossed in with mainly a humorous motive; that perhaps was anything but clear.
In that case, very well, let me correct the impression here in this post.
I am taking it in a spirit of encouragement.
It is somewhat disconcerting to see the ‘who rates who and who recs what diaries’ game going on though. Please don’t think that those who haven’t rec’d or commented here disagree w/ your diary or the discussions. The discussion have been very important ones, and I’m glad you posted your diary.
I would hope that some find my words of interest. Sometimes we struggle to find the write words and phrases that express our thoughts. Mine are just simple words and ideas…if they reach one person I shall be glad.
Rating and recs – lol – I’ve spent the last couple of months on the orange site…my ego is pretty hardened these days! Comments of a few thoughtful people mean more to me than all the recommends there are….
Let’s see if I’ve got this straight:
posting a diary that reflects the opinion of much of the world about the attitudes of most Americans = being hateful
telling said diarist that he is a “Republican troll” who writes things that are “pathetically fucking stupid = not being hateful
What strange parallel universe have I dropped into here?
I’ll tell you one thing: I am profoundly grateful that I am not hateful towards anyone because it would kill my spirit and I would cease to live. And, as Gandhi said: “Be the change you want to see…”
Attack and counter-attack…
I do not hate Ductape for the diary.
I do not hate those that espouse rhetoric generalizing hatred and stupidity towards any nation.
I stand by my comments in that diary – and by the defiintions within FAQ’s and Common Wisdom as to disruptive diarists and comments. At least one of the comments you quote is not mine, and I am sorry you felt it necessary to attribute the comments of others to me.
I did not post these comments in that diary and ask that they be limited to the topic of this diary.
I asked that this be a philosophical diary – and did not bring politics here.
I am asking whether it is what we expect of each other…and how far we have become divided.
At least one of the comments you quote is not mine, and I am sorry you felt it necessary to attribute the comments of others to me.
I didn’t attribute it to you.
I asked that this be a philosophical diary – and did not bring politics here.
You wrote:
Sweeping generalizations by an individual, in a blog diary, in the media, or by a government are ALWAYS wrong. There are so many times that a few people have spouted hateful comments and generalizations about the United States, about Republicans, about Democrats, about Arabs and Muslims, about Christians, about anything ‘they’ don’t like.
That has nothing to do with politics?
I am asking whether it is what we expect of each other…and how far we have become divided.
And so am I. Why is it acceptable behaviour to attack each other so viciously (as some have) on a lefty blog where people are working towards the same aim? Yes, opinions differ and everyone has a right to their own. The discussion in that diary was very informative in many ways, but what really causes divisions is when people choose to bring their emotions and preconceived notions of a person into the debate in order to negate whatever that person says. And that is definitely trollish behaviour. I have read the FAQs and I am well aware of the main rule here: don’t be a prick.
You want to heal divisons? Treat people with respect and humility. It really is that simple.
Something I wrote last December that might be appropriate.
I’ve interpreted DTF’s writing as in the spirit of love. I wish love were all nice words and flowers. It ain’t.
Dark has its place in art and life and writing…yet…
Framing and direction and responsiveness to the readers of the darkness helps those that do not see the love you do. We need more open communication and even dark poetry and writings are clear as to the source and direction of their anger.
So…when you write in darkness – let there be a candle showing us where your heart is. Not all of us can see through your eyes…we need to be shown the way through the darkness that you share.
This is very insightful SallyCat. However, I don’t believe that you mean it. Because if you did, you would also be open to seeing things through the darkness that DTF sees things through, and that many more of us see things through. Pagan and Wiccan poetry does not make patronizing someone any less wrong. Nor will it do much to save the next innocent Iraqi child from being blown up, or the next American soldier from being blown up.
You don’t believe I mean it? That is your choice yet it is my belief.
I am asking that DTF write in a way that shows us why he sees the darkness. I am asking that all of us write in a way that shows what our perceptions are.
The same question that I asked of catnip I ask of you:
Is that your choice – that we continue to disbelieve another’s belief?
See, when you ask someone to write in ways that are more comfortable or easier for you to understand, IMO it’s like the American media covering up the realities of destroyed bodies, homes, villages, civilizations. It’s not the full picture. Dark is stark. It isn’t comfy. I think he showed pretty clearly what his perceptions are. And he was supported in that perception by enough of us, I would hope, to put to rest this notion that he is an America hater, a troll, a right wing plant. Because if he is all of those things, then so am I.
To slap someone around and say ‘it’s because I love you and know whats best’ is still wrong. To beat a partner or friend or wife or child and then say…I’m sorry…it wasn’t you it was everybody else that upset me…is still wrong. In my opinion your analogy doesn’t work.
Communication doesn’t have to be brutal to be honest. Brutality is for bullies.
Is that your choice?
My choice is to know exactly how someone feels. I don’t want or need it to be dressed up so that I can handle it better. I can either handle it or not. I think it’s been shown pretty clearly now who can handle it, and who can’t. I’m willing to challege and examine my own failings as an American enough to handle what someone from the outside looking in thinks. That doesn’t mean that it doesn’t hurt sometimes. It does. But just because honesty, as I see it, hurts sometimes, doesn’t mean it’s brutal. Nor does it mean that brutality was intended. And it certainly doesn’t make someone an abuser.
My perception is that you choose not to see how I feel. That is your choice.
My perception is that you choose to make a presumption about what I can and cannot handle. That is also your choice.
So be it…as others have said above…do not presume do speak for me.
My advice is for people to read my latest front-page post, or actually the PW link, and think about urban crime, rather than fight about whether Ductape is, or is not, offensive.
Actually I just got home from getting deeper on the NSA list! Went out and bought a couple of books on Islam and the Quran. That should set off more NSA buzzers.
Oh yeah…and I’ve got tickets to see Al Gore next Friday night talk about his book….neener, neener, neener…
Got to have my priorities…now off to your diary…
reading recently a similar request to Arthur Gilroy to change his writing style, and he basically responded that his writing is his writing. It’s part of his ‘voice’. It really made me stop to think that perhaps I needed to get past any sylistic blocks I have with some writers and make the effort to read what he/she is trying to convey. Most of time I do a good job at discerning a message, but I’m also willing to concede that I can get it wrong. That’s why you’ll usually see me ask a question instead of jump right in with fire if I disagree. This is especially important when I’m reading something so complex like a Ductape diary.
I think it’s a worthy discussion to have regarding how to communicate in a way that provides some breathing room for differing opinions, but when it comes as a result of a thread involving personal attacks and questions of motives that are merely opinions and not known facts, then it’s hard to break out of that cycle.
Just some thoughts. Peace
you know, I am surprised to see all these comments about how ductape’s writing is mystical, or complex, or symbolic, or stylistic difficult. I guess they are for a lot people.
I just see them as formulaic. Once you recognize the theme, you can kind of just focus on the artistry of it. That’s what I do. I don’t even read the nuts and bolts, but just at looks for hooks and bends.
I know the argument by heart, so why focus on every word?
But, I guess I’ve read too much Cold War propaganda on both sides not to see his stuff as standard tradecraft of the Marxist/Third World school. What surprises me is that so many people see it as completely sincere and even convincing.
But then, that is the point. Play on people’s sense of equivalency, their egalitarian spirit, their distaste for the excesses of capitalism. Never concede anything, never allow the debate to be turned on your side, but always turn it around with an equivalency argument.
They taught this stuff in schools for such things. In Havana, in Moscow, anywhere the Soviets held sway. It really is a subgroup, normally aimed at third world audiences, not American, and not European.
It’s kind of rolled over in this case to apply to the GWOT, so the economic justice aspects of it are downplayed. But they are still there in force.
to the point where I haven’t noticed a cadence to his posts, but I have been more motivated towards peace activism by his words than anyone else I’ve read here or elsewhere on the web. Sometimes it’s through anger, other times it’s because there’s a breath of hope that jolts my insides. It’s our reactions that are important to whatever information we choose to read and in my case, I’m thankful for being given some prodding along the way that keeps me out working for change. Again, that is my experience, I can understand and see how it would be different for others.
I mostly like his stuff, and I always have. I personally invited him to this site, IIRC. But sometimes he gets in ‘a mood’ and he can become obnoxious. I think his latest was obnoxious. Of course, I chose to debate him, until he refused to debate. But, that’s how you know.
You asked me a question which was equivalent to asking someone whose sister is being raped what course of study and career path her brother thinks she should pursue.
I recognize that there are men who could easily hold forth on such a discussion in such a situation.
I am not among those men.
It is interesting, when I recounted that particular exchange to someone offline, he said “That is the problem with you. You do not understand the Americans. Even though their sister is being raped, the most important thing to them will be what her income will be in case she survives.”
And if you don’t mind a respectful suggestion, I think it would actually work more to your advantage, if you wish to say that someone refused to debate you, or did not answer your question, because that is something that should carry maximum impact, that you reserve it for those whose writings you read in their entirety. 😉
That way no one can say that they answered your question, and you just didn’t like the answer!
And please do not think that I am suggesting you read my writings in their entirety. You know what is best for you, and I am confident that in the fullness of time, you will read many writings in their entirety, and absorb many nuts and bolts that today might only give you indigestion!
though as I have been told now by two different people who have many days, weeks, and months spent in Europe……both Luam and Mad Man in the Marketplace have let it be known that this isn’t the opinion of the rest of the world. I just can’t help getting the feeling though Catnip that this is the opinion that Catnip wants the rest of the world to have and Catnip will not be happy until the rest of the world has this opinion! I am so fucking insulted that YOU think you speak for the rest of the world…….you don’t speak for me Catnip and you make outlandish claims about who you speak for just like Ductape does!
of fundies trying to take over…….is Canada on the brink of the world hating it and if so does that include every single Canadian and if they do take over can I blame you for everything they do Catnip? Can I show up regularly and spout putrid crap about all Canadians in general and when I’m told my notions are a little bit skewed can I play such a huge victimization role like you do and just crank the crap up a little louder?!?!
Hey guess what, Tracy. You can pop over to my blog anytime and post whatever you like. I don’t have a problem with that.
Can I show up regularly and spout putrid crap about all Canadians in general and when I’m told my notions are a little bit skewed can I play such a huge victimization role like you do and just crank the crap up a little louder?!?!
Hmmm…well this is interesting. What, exactly, did I write to deserve that? No, really. I’d like to know Tracy… tell me.
as we believe is right. The comments here at the bottom are creating the dissent that we are trying to stop. So…deep breath…
I understand that this is the belief that catnip has expressed. It is fair that it is her belief. I understand that many of us disagree with that belief.
So for purposes of discussion
How do we get past the reactionary response that the comments generate?
What do you and I do now…in the change that we wish to see…to diffuse the attack / counter attack mode?
What did Cindy teach you in Crawford?
What do we do now as we walk the walk and show them how wrong they are?
The comments here at the bottom are creating the dissent that we are trying to stop. So…deep breath…
I understand that this is the belief that catnip has expressed. It is fair that it is her belief. I understand that many of us disagree with that belief.
You disagree with my opinion of what is hateful and what is not?
Who’d have thought that would cause “dissent”?
I am trying to understand her emotional and visceral response. Yes, your comments are causing dissent, and I’m trying to understand why.
So…we apparently have reached a point of non-discussion.
Is that what you want?
Is that your choice – to respond to my questions to Tracy with rhetoric?
I really am just trying to understand…
Is that what you want?
Is that your choice – to respond to my questions to Tracy with rhetoric?
I must have missed something. Did I misread the flow of the comments? I thought the last comment I responded to was directed at me.
This is confusing.
As for where Tracy is at, well, that’s where she’s at. I’m not sure why so I hope she’ll enlighten me. I’ve obviously said something that has offended her.
And, you’ll have to give me your definition of “rhetoric”. I thought I was just writing a normal response.
What do we do now as we walk the walk and show them how wrong they are?
I’d suggest listening and trying to learn rather than putting all your energies into proving someone wrong.
In listening and reading…and yes I’ve read all of the comments in yesterday’s diary through about 3 hours ago…I’m still not understanding.
Generalizations create more generalizations. Words are being said past each other not to each other. Clarification is missing…and I’m trying to understand.
We are none of us completely right.
how do we communicate it without emotional responses?
I, for one, am not afraid of emotional responses. I think its possible to think AND feel at the same time. And most times when I examine my emotional responses – I learn something new.
Yet how do we communicate that emotional response so that others understand when we are limited to written words?
Once again, you are trying to figure out how to get others to understand you – rather than trying to understand what others are saying.
You can assure that people won’t understand written words if you start off with personal assumptions about people you don’t really know.
One of the first things I learned in my training to be a therapist was to repeat what you hear the other person saying to see if you heard/undertand what they are trying to say and give them to opportunity to expound.
“But if we truly believe in our positions…how do we communicate it without emotional responses? “
I’ll take a shot at thins from purely a communications perspective. The aboce is not a realistic goal, IMO, when dealing with human beings (who have emotions!), sometimes strong ones, when it come to issues close to hearts and minds.
Where our choice comes in is how and when we chose to express those emotions to each other. And we can also choose the timing: we can choose to let fly when things are at a boil, in which case we don’t often have much finesse avaialble to use..or, we can wait till the strong “reactive” phase cools down, when clear thinking and communication is a bit easier.
Next question:
“How do we explain and support without sweeping statements that do not help either side? “
This is another difficult thing to do. (avoiding all generalizations.) Possible,yes, but it’s a pretty high level commuinication skill that takes time to effectively develop, in my experience. Especially when emotions are engaged.
So, the choice we have here is what we DO about it, as readers, when it’s clear someone is generalizing. We can
a) get mad as hell and attack the writer
b) try to make the writer change her/his writing style
c) quit reading and go on to something else
d) be aware that yes, I am reading generalizations, and continue to read with that fact in mind, to see if there is a message (beyond the generalizing) that might be worthwhile.
2) Offer objective feedback about how generalizations affect me, then let it go.
Sometime it’s worth my effort, sometimes it isn’t, but in all cases, as a reader or listener I do have a choice of how I react to what anyone else writes or says. I also have a clear choice of what I choose to read or who I get close enough to hear.
The only choice I DON’T have is the one to “make” somone ELSE change their ways.
Having been on the receiving-end of (a), I see a lot of worth in (d).
;^)
Those who oppose “generalizations” and “judging” should really try living without them. In time, they’ll find that this is next-to-impossible since without some of both, (ideally, used with proportion and discretion), life becomes impossible to reason in.
People who think they do not generalize or think that they do not judge others, just as they are generalized about and are judged by others, are simply kidding themselves.
See Booman’s assessment of DF’s writing above. There’s nothing to learn from him. It’s empty, hateful rhetoric. Nothing more, nothing less.
I mostly like his stuff, and I always have. I personally invited him to this site, IIRC. But sometimes he gets in ‘a mood’ and he can become obnoxious.
Booman can speak for himself, but I see that his opinion is a bit more nuanced than that. Of course, other than the personal invite, he could be talking about anyone that writes here.
It was someone else, and I do not know if that person asked BooMan if they could invite me, and he said, “oh yes, please do!” and for that reason has that incorrect recollection.
But the email I received telling me of the site’s existence and inviting me to participate came from another individual. I am sure that all will understand that I do not name that person, as I would not wish for anyone to hold them in any way responsible for my having posted anything that they disagree with.
I think scribe makes a very good point that each of us has the choice to choose what we read.
Reading opinions that differ strongly from your own, or that diverge from your deeply held beliefs, may be a terrific experience for some people, an interesting one for others, and for some, the best choice may be to consistently choose to read things to which you are likely to react positively. There is no “One Size Fits All,” but generally speaking, I would suggest either reading it all, or choosing one that you think will be more likely to enjoy!
Just reading one or two lines, or searching for this or that phrase is popular!
As previously stated, I think reading all or none is preferable, but if you must read bits and pieces, it can be very unfair to you, unless you are careful to state, as I am glad to see that some do, that you intentionally didn’t read it all. That way, you can avoid the misunderstanding of someone else replying to your reply accusing you of not understanding it, when of course, not reading it, therefore not understanding it, was your intention! It was not something that you had an interest in reading or understanding. And that’s OK. Just follow the excellent example of those folks who do make that clear! 🙂
Perhaps you’ve forgotten that I actually live in another country and, as such, have daily contact with people who are not American.
However, if you choose to believe that the rest of the world is sitting on America’s doorstep with flowers and candy, that’s your choice – although why you need to personally insult me while making that point is beyond me. And, I certainly never said that I speak for you, Tracy, since you are an American. I was referring to other countries’ citizens.
Post some polls. Do some research. Travel. Read the news. And, if you still think my point is wrong, fine. If you find something different, let me know.
either Catnip (you have delusions that you do) and I wouldn’t venture to say that you have many conversations with people in a different country who are out of your comfort zone either……It’s just another one of my many opinions, but you are far too narrow minded to have challenged your noodle to much diversity of any kind!
wow did this fight get started? Never mind. I don’t really want to know.
You already know when this started, Boo. It was the moment when some people decided I kicked SusanHu off the site and she left in a veil of tears because I had been such a bully which you & I know is complete, fucking bullshit. But somehow – like the alien autopsy – it is a conspiracy theory that has stuck regardless of the actual facts and I am now BT enemy #1 or #2 – depending on how pissed off people are with Ductape on any given day.
we both know that has no basis in reality.
enough comments over the past few months to see that there are people here who still think she was driven off the site. It may not have any basis in reality but it’s still there. I’m glad to see that you’re starting to call out the misconceptions when they decide to bubble up.
And I am sick and fucking tired of it. What does it take to get some people around here to actually face the truth of the situation and why does it have to infect every damn post I write? I’m being hunted down like some flipping traitor even when I post benign comments and none of what happened is my fault.
And then people accuse me for just showing up and commenting now and then like it’s some kind of flipping conspiracy on my part to ‘stir up shit’. Who wants to be around this kind of atmosphere all the time? But, try as I might to engage in rational conversation about topics that interest me here – as I do on many blogs daily – I still have a target on my head. And for what? Because some people think it’s fun to hold grudges against me for things I didn’t even do as if this is junior high. Well fuck that. I’ve had it.
If you have some personal beef with me, e-mail me. If you refuse, then stop taking it out on everyone here by posting your insults about me and derailing this thread.
when it comes to blogging. I don’t do behind the scenes because for me it smacks of being manipulative and disingenuous. I believe in living a life of functionality and that usually requires transparency to actually be successful. I’m sorry that you took my angry comments to mean that I feel you ran SusanHu off…..I know that you didn’t “run” her off. Booman made this known to me in person. I miss Susan and I wish that she were here but I know that she also has her life to live and she needs to make herself happy before considering making me happy. I don’t believe in treating people like Messiahs though, and Ductape Fatwa isn’t my Messiah. I’m free to express that and I’m free to take my energies in a new direction. SallyCat created a different diary knowing and understanding that other people here needed a different direction for their energies. Maybe you didn’t understand all the whys and wherefors that some people were redirecting their energies….but for me I needed it and I didn’t need an inciteful diary showing up in the middle of it when I was participating there to get away from incitefulness! I’m not afraid of fighting for what I believe in and I’m not afraid to be transparent about it either. I’m sorry you misunderstood me in some ways. I do not like Ductape Fatwa’s diaries, I don’t believe they serve useful purpose and that now they actually cause some of my fellow countrymen to lose touch with honesty and integrity. I seek a full truth about the realities of this world in which I live and participate. I seek to put all the cards on the table and go ahead and make that table transparent too and go ahead while we are at it and make all those cards transparent as well so that we can clearly see what everybody sitting at the table is holding……..and that way we can make real decisions that work for the good of real people, and we know where we need to place our efforts in obtaining what we need for the good of real people and we will know clearly who and what we fight and who stands in our way in getting to real solutions for real people. Nobody on planet earth though is a SAINT and Americans are no better and no worse than the next guy. I don’t like many of the things that my government tries to pull, but I don’t like many of the things that most governments on this planet try to pull either! By demonizing my own country and countrymen though and writing loads of inflammatory half truths, all I will ever accomplish is focusing a lot of attention on myself which solves……….NOTHING and Ductape Fatwa = Ann Coulter in my book and deserves maybe my attention perhaps every year and a half or so.
And what does all of that have to do with me? I made one comment in his diary that was well-received, yet you chose to attack me here when I questioned the definition of being hateful.
I have yet to see a clear explanation for that behaviour from you Tracy.
This isn’t the opinion of the rest of the world (none / 0)
though as I have been told now by two different people who have many days, weeks, and months spent in Europe……both Luam and Mad Man in the Marketplace have let it be known that this isn’t the opinion of the rest of the world. I just can’t help getting the feeling though Catnip that this is the opinion that Catnip wants the rest of the world to have and Catnip will not be happy until the rest of the world has this opinion!
Here is a summary of the results of the latest Pew Global Attitudes Survey (June 13, 2006):
Now, Tracy, if you want to dispute those results, contact Pew Research because my conversation with you about this is over.
I would have never guessed that opinion of America would have slipped Catnip….most people understand though that this is a “government” problem and not a people problem, you are not included in that “understanding” though. I don’t really care if the world doesn’t continue to hold us up like some sort of jewel because that is “exeptionalism” and I have never subscribed to it. There isn’t any poll out there though where the world claims that America has become a nation of Nazis though……no matter how much bullshit you write attempting to convince people otherwise. I suppose it’s because the rest of the world is out there picking blackberries and living a real life too and they don’t have time for this stupid shit!
There isn’t any poll out there though where the world claims that America has become a nation of Nazis though……no matter how much bullshit you write attempting to convince people otherwise.
I’ll tell you this, Tracy: I have written exactly one post on my blog where I compared what’s happening in America with the slide into what happened in Nazi Germany – where I actually mentioned the name ‘Hitler’.
Furthermore, and believe me when I say this: it absolutely kills me to stoop to your level but enough is enough.
You are spewing crap about me here with absolutely no basis in fact. What gives you the right to do that? And, more importantly, why are you doing it? If you can’t answer that in an honest way that’s not full of more speculative bull, then don’t even bother.
I wouldn’t have bothered to respond to this but seriously, you are one person that, in my not so humble fucking opinion right now, needs to step back and cool down.
What purpose does it serve you to attack me and where have I crossed you to deserve this kind of treatment? And WTF is it around here that some people think I’m the enemy? As far as I’m concerned, Tracy, and because I’m in a very bad mood thanks to your attacks, you can take your prickishness here and shove it where the sun don’t shine – and that’s what you’re doing Tracy – you are being a prick.
I gave you facts, You don’t like them. Contact Pew Research. Stop fucking attacking me just to make yourself feel better. It’s just pathetic.
I happen to know that you are a much better person than that and I am extremely disappointed – not that you care WTF I think, but that doesn’t matter. Someone needs to tell you honestly that you’ve gone off the rails here. And if that’s me and I end up being crucified for it – fine. Neither the soft and fuzzy approach nor the presentation of actual facts seems to affect you.
I don’t get mad like this often, but this is beyond fucking ridiculous and you know it.
Do yourself and everyone else a favour and pull yourself together.
I have asked Booman to delete the above post which I made wrote by allowing my anger to get the best of me.
I will not give into irrationality by countering it with more of the same.
You have facts about your ‘Nazi’ allegations, Tracy? Post them.
Catnip, I can only speak for myself, but I want to inject here that I have welcomed your return here in posting comments and diaries. I have found your writing informative and thought-provoking. Not being privy to any “behind the scenes” activity – that’s just one persons opinion.
When you mention America are you refering to the people or to uncle Sam???
While in my part of the world,(ie. Argentina) there was a 75% favorable view of America before bush took over and then it went to 75% negative, the main reason for that change was…. the aftermath of Katrina, and how this government treated it’s people. And yes, Irak did also have a negative influence.
And please remember what we, the rest of the world say: people are people and governments are governments. Just in case this is not clear, you should not hate the people for what their government does!
in there anything about it being the opinion of the rest of the world because I don’t know if it is or isn’t and I doubt the rest of the world gives a flying fuck, but Catnip……it is odd that you only show up here to stir up dissent and shit and that you like to “cherry pick” through lots of comments coming up with your justifications for your war. I have been known to despise this kind of behavior. If Ductape throws another one of his hostility provoking diaries up, all I have to do it sit here quietly and wait for you and Dove appear like magic and bless us with your presence…..I know, it’s me imagining all this because I thrive on conspiracy theories. Secondly, I don’t think I’ll be providing traffic on your blog….everybody has their priorities. Thirdly, I went to go cool off and watch Lamont and Joe debate and then watch someone from the WSJ give me his unslanted version I’m certain of who won, then I went to pick wild blackberries on the dam before the sun went down and then we ate them until my sons tummy had black juices running down the front, then we cleaned his tummy off………because I needed a little extra reality harvested from living a real life in my day today.
it is odd that you only show up here to stir up dissent and shit and that you like to “cherry pick” through lots of comments coming up with your justifications for your war.
Yes, that is a common opinion around here despite the fact that I have posted some non-controversial diaries and made comments here that were not meant to “stir up dissent and shit”. But those don’t count because they don’t fit into your little theory and that is what it is: a theory.
And, just which “war” are you referring to, Tracy? I certainly don’t have a war going on except the one that I’m involved in daily with Bushco. If you think I’m somehow involved in any other so-called war, you are mistaken.
I checked out DT’s diary because it was interesting, as was the discussion. I visit many blogs and leave comments there every day. I do a news & views roundup each nite because I like to know what’s going on with the blogs I read and alert my readers to interesting topics. I’m certainly not going to apologize for that.
Gee, I guess I popped into the middle of a raging dispute.
For the record,
I reject, right along with you, the loopy reasoning which accepts as valid the following syllogisms:
“posting a diary that reflects the opinion of much of the world about the attitudes of most Americans = being hateful”
“telling said diarist that he is a “Republican troll” who writes things that are “pathetically fucking stupid = not being hateful”
Maybe I should post a diary of my own on it.
With a couple of exceptions–namely, those posted today–my previous posts in this thread were done:
To tell the truth, I hadn’t followed that saga and perhaps I shouldn’t have posted here in ignorance of it.
So, now, with greater seriousness, I’ll offer my views on this “rhetoric of hate” business and, further, on my views regarding the validity of comparing Americans–of whom I am one–with the people of 1930s Germany.
The phrase “rhetoric of hate” is one which I think many people apply too lightly. It’s sloppy argument, in my opinion, to denounce one’s opponents’ views as the product of “hate”. Uh, there are plenty of things I regard as quite deserving of our hatred. For those things, I do not apologize for hating them.
The question for me turns on what this rhetoric described as motivated by hate is directed against and on how valid are the grounds for attacking and opposing those things.
Poemless is very upset at the thrashing that, in her view, Americans in general are receiving in an indiscriminate manner from critics near and far. These critics, she says, are indulging in gross (and, more importantly, unfair) generalization about that huge and very diverse place, America of the United States. I know this because I’ve read her opinions on it and participated in some exchanges on the topic.
Are many Americans getting unfairly “tarred” with a broad brush applied to the Right wing extremists who are currently running the joint? Perhaps, yes, they are. My view of that plaint is, frankly, “It’s sorta tough.”
Deal with it rather by kicking these fascist jerks out of their places of power in our, not by demanding that America’s critics carry and constantly use a fine-tooth comb.
Times being what they are, I’m taking some of that “tar” with the rest of you. If you think that I don’t receive frosty to openly hostile reactions from some of the French upon hearing my American-accented French speech, you’re new to these parts.
That’s what I get for belonging to and hailing from a country that has gone badly off the rails.
“It’s just the government! Really, a lot of us are such good people!”
Yeah, right. Tell me all about it. Sorry, but our good deeds don’t cancel out our bad. Not only does that not wash for most of the people of the world, we Americans wouldn’t buy that line of reasoning for one second from others trying to take refuge in it.
Saddam Hussein’s dictatorship was by many objective measures a safer and more civil place in which to live than is the free Iraq we’ve arranged for the Iraqis by invading their country and deposing their dictator. So, do those good points “cancel out” Saddam Hussein’s ruthless rule? Of course not. Do our fine intentions–as they’re claimed by Bush and Cheney–for a democratic Iraq one of these decades “cancel out” the harms our policy has inflicted on that country? Not for me, they don’t. And not for a lot of Iraqis, either. For them, whatever benefits there came from ousting Hussein have now been more than lost in the chaos we’re perpetuating in Iraq by remaining there for what are now obviously our own very selfish reasons. We should have left that country as soon as it was clear that we’d botched our mission there. And that was clear from at least the moment that Coalition “Czar” L. Paul Bremer, if not from the very onset, took up corrupt control of the “Coalition Provisional Authority”.
We’re occupiers now doing all the very bad things which occupiers do. Your opposition to that occupation is very small comfort to the Iraqis.
But the Iraqi’s interests pale for me when compared to the harms Bush and Cheney have inflicted on the U.S.’s legal and political institutions. Even if the U.S. occupation were a blooming garden of success, I’d oppose it as having been done at the tremendous cost of practically every last vestige of democratic government in the U.S., which, frankly, too many good liberals have failed to grasp, wasn’t at all in good shape before Bush and Cheney stole two presidential elections.
What kind of people are we? If you actually read history by reputable scholars of the period, and look at it fairly, you’ll find that in point after point, we are now very much like the people who, in Germany of the 1930s, chose and stubbornly supported another charismatic leader who told them that the nation’s freedom and soul were at stake, just like Bush did. The Germans considered that Hitler was the right man in a desperate situation. He promised to defend Germany from forces determined to destroy it. He called on Germans’ sense of patriotic pride and denounced those who opposed him as traitors and anti-patriots. And the crowds agreed with Hitler and cheered him.
There is no difference in the photographed faces of the crowds assembled at rallies where Hitler spoke and the faces of the cult-following faithful at the campaign rallies of Bush and of the faces photographers captured of the crowds at the Republican National conventions of 2000 and 2004. Both clearly show people under the spell of a charismatic leader who has charmed them through deft use of rhetoric and bombast.
How and why Americans suppose themselves somehow impervious to such arts while other entirely modern and technologically sophisticate people, as were the Germans of their day, in the 1930s, fell victim to these masterfully used devices of mass manipulation is something that escapes sound sense.
Nothing about Hitler was unique or even unprecedented, even then, let alone today. The German people were neither particularly evil nor particularly stupid. They allowed, all the same, an ingenious demagogue to rule over and abuse them from 1933 until 1945, when his mania finally brought the nation to complete ruin.
Right to the end, there were Germans who steadfastly insisted that Hitler’s real intentions and purposes had been sabotaged by factions which were against Germany; etc. There is not a single important feature of our present predicament which does not have a very clear, and a very fairly drawn parallel with Germany of the 1930s to 40s. Americans who don’t or won’t recognize that are simply ignorant of the unpleasant and inconvenient facts–willingly ignorant in many cases. They don’t want to know, don’t want to hear about it.
But for those who are capable, the record is abundant. The point is not that we are an “evil” people; for the Germans were not either. But we have invested generations of effort in the art of convincing ourselves that, in World War II, “good“, represented mainly by us, fought valiantly and defeated “evil“, represented mainly by Hitler and also by what were obviously millions of people who were very, very devoted to him. To call them simply “duped” by Hitler, that is, to imagine that somehow, they really didn’t see what they were supporting, is just ludicrous. Here is the unpleasant truth: a smart, sophisticated and, in their own minds, modern and fair people, can indeed be swept up and away by masterful use of political rhetoric in times of great national crisis.
There are many valid comparisons to be drawn between the tragically misled people of 1930s Germany and us, the fine, decent people of the 21st century United States.
A great many people shall simply flee that idea, so abhorrent is it to all that they have believed about themselves and their nation. Well, facts are stubborn things.
You can still point out many really good and decent Americans who oppose the policies of Bush and Cheney–and oppose them because they fully understand what these policies mean.
You could also find significant numbers of Germans who were appalled by what they saw transpire before their very eyes. A lot of them, too, took refuge in denial, telling themselves, “This just can’t be happening; not to Germany!” They, too, opposed the policies and the man who prosecuted them.
Despite that fact, he went on from 1933 to 1945 wrecking havoc on the world. Despite the fact that there are numbers of Americans who recognize that Bush is destroying the institutions and infrastructure of what is supposed to be democratic government, Bush, too, has gone on and on –now for six years–and only now is beginning to face the first signs of general and growing opposition.
To the extent that the parallels are just and valid, they ought to be faced–and for our own good, too. The idea that these things are just too terrible to be true, or that, if true, too terrible to be admitted, is part of the folly of denial.
No one has claimed, as far as I am aware, that Bush and Hitler are identical or that the American people of today and the German people of the 1930s are indentical or that they are somehow inherently evil. The claims are that there are some very fair and very seriously dangerous parallels and that there are numbers, too large, of those who show themselves as ready to blindly follow Bush and Cheney in the same way and for the same sort of reasons that the smart and modern and morally self-respecting people of 1930s Germany, who’d very tragically lost their way politically, were ready to follow Hitler.
If that is something that DuctapeFatwa argued, then I, too, share that view of the situation. And, if he (or she) was banned somewhere for having argued those views, or was denounced as spreading the “rhetoric of hate”, then I now state my view for the record that that banning, that denunciation, too, is misguided and mistaken.
“Those who do not remember the past are doomed to repeat it”?
I like that you remind us that they are parallels, not that they are identical. The country is at a crossroads — the direction we take will determine the country’s future course of action.
And that’s why we have to stop fighting each other and start fighting for what’s really important…the future of America and by extension, the future of the world…
‘Nuff said…
I’ve read every one of the 400 plus comments to both this diary and DTF’s work. In that long process, I experienced many different reactions. Alarm at times, at seeing good people I respect nearly come to word-blows and sensing the deep angers, even rage, and I suspectsubstantial pain, berneath that. I felt some anger too at feeling lumped together with other Americans who truly are not involved and who choose to not “see” whats going on..
I’ve felt an almost unbearable shame at the repeated reminders of the sad state of my beloved country, and told myself I’d never read another DTF diary, because I just can’t bear much more reality and still continue to function, when there is so little I can do, personally, to change any of it.
But this morning, when I added up the number of comments, when I stepped back and took the long view of the passionate discussion transpiring on both of these diaries, I see Americans and non Americans engaged. Together. VERY engaged, in the kind of disussion that is, in my opinion, absolutly essential if we are going to EVER see anything change.
I see a diarist daring to speak his truth, knowing full well what will follow. I see others daring to speak thier own truths, in reaction to it, reactions that cover the gamut of possibilities.
I see a site owner who is able to allow this kind of powerful discussion and even participate in it, without having to censor or stop it, or control it’s direction from his position as site owner.
I have not seen any “pricks” and I have not seen any “trolls.” I have seen a lot of people who’s hearts are the same shape and color, wrestling HARD to deal with each others very different perspectives and deeply valid, deeply emotional reactions to each other.
And I know this: as long as we can do this here, at BooTrib, then is hope it can be done other places too. It tells me it IS possible for people with very different world views CAN gather, CAN share thier truths, without killing each other off. It tells me that there indeed ARE people who are brave enough to weather the tough parts of learning how to hear each other, and the frustrating parts of trying to be heard when one doesn’t feel heard.
It gives me hope, these “difficult” diaries, trememdous hope that I need so badly now. Yes, it is hard. Yes, there is pain and conflict carried with iit.
But no blood is being shed, you notice. No children are getting killed.
So I, for one, am proud of all and grateful to all who risk reading and participating in these discussions here. And I hope very much to see them continue.
Well say!!
Well Said! I seem to not be able to type today :-)!
There is reason for hope and reason for sadness.
It is with tremendous sorrow that I see divisions forming that will not be healed. In reading the comments and responses in both diaries it is apparent that some will not make attempts to hear what the other side is saying. What were once ‘lines in the sand’ are now canyons among the readers on this site.
It is easier for me to share ideas and goals and efforts for change with conservatives than with liberals here. No one is dying, no one is killing children, no one is going hungry. Yet we are killing our communication ability within those of similar core beliefs.
The apathetic and conservatives are finally seeing the need for change and are looking for common ground. The divisions are here and no effort is being made toward common ground. I fear the divisions will remain no matter what efforts are made because it takes commitment from both sides to reach consensus.
Sally,
Philosophical discussions are the toughest to have since they reach beyond the surface and touch the core of a person’s beliefs. These beliefs have been developed via personal experiences (good and bad), upbringing, education, religious exposure, etc.
The recent discussions are starting to hit, what I call “ground truth” on a number of issues and viewpoints. Nothing worth achieving comes without pain. I believe it is part of the human condition that to reach resolution, we must endure a long journey. The twists and turns become obstacles, instead of viewing them as learning experiences to gain more insight.
This does not mean that we abandon the journey or feel helpless lost and wander with no idea of what direction we should turn. Instead, it is up to each one of us, to examine ourselves in a honest manner, addresses our areas of weakness, gain knowledge in the areas we are not fully educated on and strive to improve ourselves to better the lives of others.
The examination can be painful for many to do and I believe that is what is being seen recently. The future course is not always easy to see and out of fear, many resist moving forward, but hold on to familiar ideas, thoughts and philosophies like a comfortable old pair of shoes.
I truly believe that Scribe wonderfully stated the current reality – we are all growing up [in many different levels] and growing pains are to be expected. Do not despair, but understand that we will reach the final destination.
I hope you will continue to challenge us with your words and thoughts.
The sadness is that some of the writers on this site have shown over the past year how thoughtful they are in choosing their words. Then for months have chosen to use that writing skill to inflame rather than teach or reach with philosophical ideas. This is not growth in my perception. It is change…for what purpose it is yet to be seen.
The sadness is the number of times that the comment is ‘well just don’t read it’. Like many others, I will stop reading powerful writers. These writers once impressed me with their words and ideals. These writers now antagonize and alienate with different words and bitterness.
What does it accomplish when they alienate the ones that could assist their goals and ideals?
What does it accomplish when we divide the party from within instead of finding common ground?
I will write when I feel something needs to be said – just my simple opinions. I would hope to convince with ideas not bitterness and anger. Perhaps I am naive believing in the good of the human race…so be it.
Peace VV
I think that what we’re seeing in the U.S.–partly in a general sense, but most of all within the Democratic party’s ranks, in the party’s officials and among its regular voters–is not the result of confusion but rather the result of an very bitter struggle to define, or rather re-define the Democratic party and what it is to represent.
There is really no way that such a struggle could be other than bitter.
Right now, and for some time–since, say the solidification of the conservative’s effort with the election of R Reagan–the Democrats are a party which has come to be a version of Republican-light politics. In this, someone like Joe Lieberman has come to represent the party’s mainstream while those like the Kennedys and Gore and Kerry are portrayed as extreme leftists, almost unelectable now.
What the general conservative leadership in the nation would like to see the Democratic party become, I think, is one in which Joe Lieberman represents the far left fringe of the party and one in which there is simply no place for Kennedys, Kerrys, or Gores; and where Hillary is a flaming liberal.
Such a recasting of what is left, center and right, would remake the political landscape of today as the accepted standard version of reality rather than what it so far remains–a fiercely contested version.
Thus, it isn’t that Democrats are confused about who they are and where they want to take the nation. It’s that there are two very irreconcilable versions vying for party control.
If I have judged your view correctly, Sallycat, you prefer the party not cast itself with Lieberman as its farthest left prototype.
If so, I agree with you. For me, that would be the end of any meaningful Democratic party and an even more extreme case of there being for all practical intents and purposes, a truly one-party political system which defines “liberal” out of existence.
It seems remarkable that we can even be faced with such a prospect but this may be seen as the result of many, many decades of slow development.
I don’t claim that the complete disappearance of all semblance of liberal political alternative in U.S. politics would be definitive and irrevocable; but there is no telling how long such a re-alignment might last. It depends in part on whether a generation or two of people can be raised under the accepted notions as they are intended by the political right wing which seeks to literally re-define American politics so that its ideological foes are to as great an extent as possible defined out of existence.
That radical approach to political opposition, by the way, is one which has blind-sided the Democrats who, until recently, could barely conceive of such a program for their complete demise.
Taken in this light, there are obviously great stakes and good reason for the locked battles going on.
This is, of course, a theoretical view, a hunch about, how to explain and understand what we see going on politically. I can’t claim that it is surely a correct view; but it makes the current situation less mysterious to me. Otherwise, I can’t really account for how and why the Democrats are not reacting more openly and in a more unified way to the onslaught which Bush and Cheney’s regime has represented.
Others may have better notions. We could air and compare them. I’m far from convinced that, even if the above-described scenario is a correct one in part or whole, the conservatives shall succeed in such a radical effort to remake the political map.
I think that the present and next generation of twenty-year-olds shall give them very serious opposition for many varied reasons.
I’ve been working on some diaries regarding political perspectives and the words we use based on my recent experience with perceived conservatives.
I’ll be thinking about the comments in this diary and the perceptions when I finish these diaries. They’ll be uncomfortable for a lot of readers…as it was for me to experience it.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts on the restructuring and redirection of the Democrats and the nation. It gives me more food for thought…
“Thank you for sharing your thoughts on the restructuring and redirection of the Democrats and the nation. It gives me more food for thought… “
You’re so welcome; thank you for reading and replying.
That’s the highest praise I can aspire to earn.
Trading food for thought– my raison d’être. I very much look forward to reading your coming diaries.
I see a couple of potential divisions in the recent disagreements here at the pond.
This first one might be the same one you are talking about proximity1 – but maybe not. I think that we may have gathered a group here that unites in seeing that our current political administration is abominable and that our involvement in Iraq must end – the sooner the better. With this united vision, we have thought that we all agree. But beyond that common ground, I think there are divisions. Some may feel that ending the Bushco regime is what we need to do, while others see the disease going much deeper and having lasted much longer than the last 6 years.
The second is more an issue of diversity of style. What I would call the difference between the “doers” and the “dreamers.” I’ve experienced conflict in my own life (especially professionally) as a result of these different styles. The “doers” often wonder when we are going to stop talking and actually get something done. The “dreamers” are constantly looking at the big picture and trying to figure out what the themes are. The “doers” often feel that the “dreamers” think they are not as intelligent and the “dreamers” often feel that the “doers” think they are spending too much time naval-gazing.
I personally think that an effective movement needs both doers and dreamers. If we can see the contributions that both make to the possibility for change, we will embrace each other rather than constantly feeling the others are not doing their part.
Sally, If I may gently take your words as you wrote them, and use them to suggest an possible alternative outcome?
You say “It is with tremendous sorrow that I see divisions forming that will not be healed.”
If you replaced “will not be healed”..with “MAY not be healed”, some wiggle room is left for a potenmtial different outcome. We humans really haven;t any clear idea, IMO, of how much untapped power we have within us to heal even apparently lethal wounds and divisions. We’ve only just begun to learn of this power we have.
You say: “In reading the comments and responses in both diaries it is apparent that some will not make attempts to hear what the other side is saying.”
This assessment can only be based on the actual words that have been written here, and on how we each interpret them, right? But we can never know ALL what is going on inside the hearts and minds of the writers. There is no way to know what “seed” was planted where in each of us, that may be taking root even as we speak, and will bloom later, out of our sight. Maybe you are being heard by many more than every come back and tell you so on this screen. Maybe those who seem to not “hear” really are hearing our messages on a level they may not yet be aware of, but will remember. We don’t just “hear’ each other with our eyes and our ears. We hear with our hearts and spirits too. And yes, there will always be some to choose not to hear us at all. Still, we must keep trying..and trhyinig..and trying..because what is the alternative?
Finally you write: ” What were once ‘lines in the sand’ are now canyons among the readers on this site.”
If it is true that energy tends to follow thought, then are we truly powerless over this kind of negative outcome?
I am picturing a huge canyon now, with people standing on opposite cliffs. People who, underneath all of thier differences, all really want to get to the same destination in time. All of whom have pieces of the only map in existance that could get them there, and they know this.
But there is this deep, apparently bottomless canyon separating them, leeping them from being able to gather together all the separate pieces of the map that will take them all to where they wish to be.
These are all human beings: people capable of nearly immeaurable levels of creativity, intellect,imagination who posess indominable wills.
Sally, I just cannot, and I will not believe us (human beings in general) to be incapable of doing whatever we have to do, to figure out how to come together across canyons of all kinds, little or big, to get to a shared destination. The day I start thinking it IS impossible, for ALL of us, will be the day I am ready to check the hell outa here once and for all.
I stand by what I said. The passion of the writers on these threads is a tremendow ASSET , not a liability or a “negative” IMO. It is raw human energy and passion focused on a common destination, that we can choose to channel however we will, including creating NEW channels and bridges as we go.
IMO, it does MOT “have to” drive us further apart..just because it always has before, or because we cant find a quick fix to the acute discomoft it is currently causing.
Having said all of that..:)..let me also say I totally understand how it all seems to be, and feels to you right now. Every one of you. None of you are “wrong”. none are “right”, because this isn’t about who is wrong or who is right at ALL. It’s about whether or not we can stay close enough together to keep sharing, and learning more and more about each other.. in spite of apparent canyons.
I haven’t looked at this diary since yesterday when I made my silly comments at the top of this thread. At that time, mine was the second one. But I’ve seen the number of comments grow and pretty much knew that things likely went in a direction not originally intended. I’ve avoided coming back here but couldn’t look away just like the accident at the side of the road. There are some helpful/useful things posted and some that are not. Each takes away something uniquely his/her own.
Sally, All I can say is that a diary is posted with a certain intent in mind. (I can’t tell you how many times a post has gone in a direction completely unintended.) See that there is value here, though it may take some effort to distill it.
to your diary. I knew the spirit you wrote it in and I wanted to head in that direction badly….it is the only way I get anything done in my life right now facing what I do and I already read that Ductape considers people in “Service” to have created our own bucket full of woes and we deserve to be abused, but it is a double edge sword because this isn’t a nice world and America does need a military and NATO and the U.N. require forces as well to do what little they can often do to ensure safety of the innocent when the not so innocent decide that everything is theirs. I did my best to go in a new direction with my energies but people for whatever reason felt like they had to show up on this diary and make what were inciteful posts and I failed miserably in my goal after that, and I fear I have spoiled your diary and I’m sorry Sallycat for that happening.
What was accomplished in this diary was a clarification of perspectives from many differing viewpoints. Diaries rarely go in the direction intended – which is good and bad!
It was a learning experience for all of us. As scribe and proximity indicated there is some common ground here. It will be interesting to see whether it can be reached or whether the mountain or canyon is too big.
– – – –
Off topic…
Probably on Sunday /(or when I finish my rambling thoughts!) I may seek your assistance in another diary…about the mountain states and the people that live there. It will take much thought about the cultural differences between living in a city and the culture of the rural intermountain states. So…this weekend ponder the perceived conflicted opinions of the folks from Wyoming, Montana, Idaho…and how they really are liberal in ways we don’t realize.
that I could be SallyCat. I still belong to the frogpond emailing group I think. I’ll check with Cabingirl and find out if it is still ongoing, I don’t think it has been used in awhile. I adore that Colorado’s Democrat tires are starting to smoke. My Grandma Vera is throwing a party in heaven right now! I’m disappointed about Wyoming though and want to do some reading on what is maybe happening there. There they are sandwiched in between Colorado and Montana and from what I have gleaned so far they are becoming entrenched in Redthink. It is such a small sparse self reliant population, but for God’s sake they aren’t stupid and it wasn’t that long ago that many of them really disliked Dick Cheney…….they are small and sparse though and he has directed a spotlight on them in a way though too and I wonder if in some weird way that isn’t a factor.
I’ve been thinking about your actual questions, Sallycat, believe it, or not. 🙂 My answers are probably going to end up being pretty literal.
Do we tolerate hate and hateful speech or do we call for peaceful solutions?
Sometimes we do tolerate it. If I were to say I hate George Bush and call him names, I don’t think anybody here would ask me to speak more peacefully. We tolerate it among ourselves when we talk about people whom we dislike in common. I think we also tolerate it when we hear somebody we like use it in regard to somebody we don’t like. It has to get pretty bad before we’ll tell them to knock it off, though sometimes we do.
So to answer your first question, yeah, I think we do tolerate it, kind of habitually, in many instances.
Do we tolerate rhetoric or ask for specific points of fact?
I’m guessing you mean “hateful rhetoric” here. I think my answer is pretty much the same as above: sure, we tolerate a lot of that when we’re berating people we dislike in common. And I think that although we each like to think we know hateful rhetoric when we see it, what we’re learning is that other people whose opinions we otherwise respect might see not see hate in the very same words. And vice versa: Somebody who doesn’t see hate in certain rhetoric can be surprised to find out that someone whose opinion they otherwise respect does find it hateful. Personally, my way of dealing with that is to think, hmm, well, I think the world of “X” at other times, and I think she’s really smart, so if she thinks this rhetoric is hateful, or vice versa, the least I can do is consider her point of view and not get mad at her for having it. I fail at this one quite frequently!
Do we walk the walk and promote peace and change or do we accept the status quo?
Well, everybody’s walk is different, for one thing, and I don’t really know the best way for you to walk yours, and I’d probably think it presumptuous of you if you tried to tell me how to walk mine. Don’t want my walk judged, thank you! 🙂 Also, the best way I know of to un-promote peace is to try to get other people to change! And the best way I know to lose my own peace of mind is to wish that people would change to being different from how they are.
As far as I can tell there’s no such thing as status-quo; everything’s always changing; we only have the illusion that it isn’t.
What choices do we choose to make?
I love this question, because it gets to the heart of life, for me, because it hints at the task of becoming conscious. As long as we understand that every single thing we do involves a choice of some kind–every single thing–then I suspect we’re walking the walk, because we’re working toward full consciousness.
So there you go. . .one woman’s incomplete and imperfect answers to your original questions. Thank you for asking.
Kansas,
I wish I could express myself the way you do. I think I might not get into trouble as much if I could :o)
In looking at the people who recommended your comment, and knowing all of them and a little about the way they each see things, I believe I can say that these people represent the wide array of views here. Even opposing views sometimes. But what I also see are people that I’ve seen, time and time again, be in perfect agreement with each other, and beyond that, seen them profess great affection for one another.
There is no canyon here that is so wide that any of those people, including me, couldn’t find a way to reach across.
Thanks so much.
I’m with you re the rhetoric of hate, no matter the cause.
I also deplore any kind of too-wide grouping. I call it “labelism” – and it’s as bad as racism, or anti-semitism, to me. Just because 10 people do something doesn’t mean 100 others would do the same thing, no matter the ethnic/religious/political grouping. Not all Republicans are bad. Not all Democrats are good.