The BBC reports that Israel’s Prime Minister Ariel Sharon wants Iran expelled from the UN after Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad called for Israel to be “wiped off the map”. Probably not a smart move on Iran’s part.
Sharon also said, “A country calling for the destruction of another people cannot be a member of the UN”.
Pot. Kettle. Black.
EU leaders stated, “Calls for violence, and for the destruction of any state, are manifestly inconsistent with any claim to be a mature and responsible member of the international community”.
Pot. Kettle. Black. on the part of some of those countries too.
Here are some past quotes from George W Bush about Saddam Hussein, the GWOT and the Iraq war:
Our nation is somewhat sad, but we’re angry. There’s a certain level of blood lust, but we won’t let it drive our reaction. We’re steady, clear-eyed and patient, but pretty soon we’ll have to start displaying scalps.
For all who love freedom and peace, the world without Saddam Hussein’s regime is a better and safer place.
Every nation in every region now has a decision to make. Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists.
I just want you to know that, when we talk about war, we’re really talking about peace.
All told, more than 3,000 suspected terrorists have been arrested in many countries. Many others have met a different fate. Let’s put it this way — they are no longer a problem to the United States and our friends and allies.
There’s just something very disgusting about hypocrisy, isn’t there? I don’t recall Sharon and the EU leaders calling for the US to be expelled from the UN.
Surprisingly, or maybe less so since the Bush administration used the same kind of rhetoric in the past, the US is not backing the call for Iran’s expulsion from the UN.
“Iran is a member of the United Nations,” State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said. “What I think we would encourage instead is Iran to start behaving in a responsible manner as a member of the international community.”
Pot. Kettle. Black.
What other nations have actually called for an existing state to be wiped off the face of the earth? I agree that some of your example nations show hypocricy. But I am not sure that any of those examples called for the destruction of another nation, so I don’t think in this context you are correct. Please elaborate.
Sharon said “people”.
Here’s the list of EU member states. They certainly are not all innocent players.
I am in no way saying that the nations you mention are innocent. But again, when did any of them call for the destruction of any “people?” Sharon, for example, as far as I am aware accepts the validity of a Palestinian State. He may differ on what territory that would include, but he has not called for the destruction of the Palestinian people nor has he said that Palestine has no validity as a state once agreement can be reached. You can question his motives and his willingness to act. But he has not made the same kind of statement as Iran has as far as I am aware. If I am wrong, please let me know but with more support.
It seems to me Iran has gone beyond what any of these other nations have. Keep in mind, I do not have the same hatred of Iran as many do. I feel that they are an interesting experiment in trying to combine a religious state with a form of democracy. I also feel that the US is completely hypocritical for demanding that Iran give up its nuclear program. But I do not think Iran’s call for the destruction of Israel as being similar to anything Israel has called for.
On Sharon, I refer you to his history and the fact that he keeps killing innocent civilians while he lobs his missiles into Gaza. You can argue that he doesn’t want to destroy all of the Palestinian people, but he is a warmonger from way back and he has blood on his hands.
It seems to me Iran has gone beyond what any of these other nations have.
Why? Because their president put in words what other nations actually put into action? It’s not like Iran has illegaly invaded Israel like the US and its allies have in Iraq. Why should Iran be expelled from the UN for a statement its president made when others have gone much further and are still member states of the UN?
I still think that Iran’s call to destroy an entire nation is a whole level worse than what the other nations do. I am not defending Bush’s invasion of Iraq. In fact I was fighting against it from day one. But Bush has never called for the destruction of an entire nation and his actions, bad though they are, will not result in such a destruction. I should note that the poltician who called for nuking Mecca is more like the IRanian President.
As for Gaza, you are right but it is STILL not the equivalent in my mind and I should point out for balance that the Palestinians are daily firing mortars and rockets into Israel as well. Sharon is a horrible person and I blame him a great deal for the break down of Clinton’s peace process, but the rocket fire between Israel and Gaza is two way, and Sharon is not calling for the destruction of all Palestinians the way Iran is calling for the destruction of all Israelis.
As much as parsing words annoys me, here, I think it is necessary. In your response to me, you used the word “genocide”, and here you say that he was “calling for the destruction of all Israelis”.
Even if his words were not misrepresented, as ductape suggests above, the words were “the state of Israel, should be wiped off the map”, yes?
That is a wee bit different than saying that all Israelis should be slaughtered — but again, that’s just me.
Hmmm…
Yeah. I know. I think what is bothering me is that the Iranian statement makes me FEAR he means genocide. In reality, I really believe that is what he means. You have to understand that I almost want to like Iran in an odd way. They are NOT the fanatics that Bush portrays them as. Nor are they like al Qaeda and the Taliban. If anything, they have, on balance, been a stablizing force in the area. But, the current statement gave me chills that echoed through my knowlege of history and scared the shit out of me. I think those implications have to be realized. So I chose to use the word.
Even saying that the nation is to be eliminated is kind of scary. After all, Israel and Palestine have the same legal basis. That is why I consider myself pro-ISrael AND pro-Palestine. To me, saying one of them should cease to exist takes away the validity of both. From what I can see, that has been the ARAB position since 1948 when they invaded Palestine. Now it is the stated position of IRan. The only difference is I think Iran would actually support an independent Palestine while the Arab nations really have not.
quite a lot. I think the Iranian people would like to improve relations with America. The older generation has many people that remember their close relationship with America during most of the Cold War. The younger generation is sick of the oppressive revolutionary government.
But the Executive Government there is probably the most dangerous one in the world (after North Korea), and they have been responsible for the vast majority of terrorism since 1979.
view. And a popular one it is, too. In the US.
Outside the US, well… there is a different perspective.
Operation Iranian Freedom will require quite a bit of Resolve.
an exceptionalist.
And what I am trying to say is that Iran and America could probably benefit from improving relations. I’m not calling for an Operation Iranian Freedom.
All they require is that you remain an exceptionalist. 😉
Agreed. THe handful of Iranians I have known (not counting “Persian” Jews who are hostile to Iran) have been very thoughtful, religious and intelligent people.
Plus their food kicks ass! Yum!
Boo,
I take exception with your characterization of Iran as being primarily responsible for terrorism since 1979. But, we can spare the board a discussion of terror vs. state-terror.
To echo DTF’s thought, the vast majority of the world finds the USA and Israel a far greater threat than Iran, or Iraq for that matter.
Mole333,
You are spot-on in some of your more sympathetic comments on Iran. I recently attended a very interesting seminar/discussion with an Iranian-American anthropologist of some renown, Ross Pourzal.
Look up some of his works for a more intimate lens into their society/ system of governance.
shouldn’t take exception to it. The Iranians have killed more Americans than anyone else since their revolution, unless you count 9/11, which is still basically an unsolved case as far as the intelligence services that trained the hijackers, or trained the hijacker’s trainers.
Actually, I can and I will take exception to it. If I was employing a very narrow definition of terror and was wrapped snugly in an Ameircan flag, then you would be dead-on target.
But, I’m more inclined to take MLK’s or Pat Tillman’s hero’s perspective [Chomsky]on terror; the USA remains the world’s largest purveyor of it.
a different argument.
The Iranians have killed more Americans than anyone else. And always by using proxies.
William Francis Buckley (May 30, 1928 – June 3, 1985) was a U.S. Army officer and intelligence agency operative. He was kidnapped by the Islamist group Islamic Holy War on March 16, 1984 while serving as CIA station chief in Beirut, Lebanon, and was subject to torture and interrogation at the hands of his captors for 444 days; the man overseeing his torture was Imad Mugniyah, a former leader of Hezbollah. Buckley was eventually smuggled to Tehran via Damascus aboard an Iranian plane.
They sent a videotape to the CIA of Buckley’s agony, leering into the camera as they broke every bone in his body. His ordeal lasted many days, then they ditched his body on the road and his remains were only returned in 1991.
Yes, they’ve committed some heinous acts of terror, especially against American assets, but that was not your original argument.
Your original argument was twofold, “their government is the most dangerous in the world,” and “Iran is responsible for the vast majority of terrorism since 1979.”
I believe our Gov’t is the most dangerous in the world and is responsible for the vast majority of terrorism since 1979. Even if we were to reduce your argument to sponsors of non-state terror, I’m not sure Iran would win in that category, either.
I know, I know…we are all P.I.S.S.y right now.
no, they are a state-sponsor of terror. They have killed more Americans than anyone else. They are certainly more dangerous to us than anyone else.
The Swedes are not so worried about either them or us.
We have used terror in the past. Notably in response to Buckley’s torture and death. But our armed forces and Iran’s armed forces are separate from covert ops.
You introduced the qualifier “to us,” as in dangerous to us. That was not the original construct.
Even still, they are probably not the most dangerous nation to us. One could make a reasonable argument that Russia or China represent a far greater danger to us.
Speaking of Sweden, I just ate an entire box of Swedish Ginger Snaps. No wonder everbody loves the Swedes. Yummy.
Merry Fitzmas!!! Don’t forget to leave some ginger snaps for the South Side Brawler.
Mole333,
I, too, appreciate the dispassionate way in which we have discussed this lynchpin geopolitical topic. But, I must take issue with your gross generalization of the ARAB position, as if it is a monolithic one. Several Arab countries, most notably Egypt and Jordan, have recognized and accepted Israel as a sovereign, true nation in the ME.
I, too, think this can be an incendiary topic, for a number of reasons, and bemoan the fact that it is consciously avoided on many blogs…as I believe that this issue more than any other stokes the flames of hatred and misunderstanding on all sides. I have, in the past, badgered Booman about its absence from the frontpage.
The lack of “troll-rates” on this board is a credit to the maturity and open-mindedness of Boo’s board. This rather benign conversation would have been pulled off of certain unmentionable boards.
Ummm…I want to respond but not sure what you mean by this. What do you want me to elaborate on?
I prematurely posted, that’s all friend.
What does one expect when Iran is being harassed at every turn by the USA at Israel’s beckoning. Every other week, the USA or Israel threaten to attack Iran. Israeli emissaries are practically camped outside of Bush’s residence chanting “You attack Iran or we will!!!”
Is a sovereign nation supposed to take that lying down? Mole333 show me your like concern over US & Israeli saber rattling over the last year.
Further, Iran is not a nuclear power while both the US and Israel are. Who does one really need to fear?
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No sable rattling needed, ugly propaganda at every possible turn. Iranian incitement for hatred, unfortunate but not necessary to start fueling the B-52’s from Diego Garcia.
See my diaries on Basra and SAS covert actions, the UK fix of infra red devices from Hezbollah, Lebanon in conjunction with Iran. That’s nicely modelled by the UK war propaganda machine, even Goebbels would smile.
“Treason doth never prosper: what’s the reason?
For if it prosper, none dare call it treason.”
▼ ▼ ▼ MY DIARY
Well, I do mostly agree. THe baiting of Iran has been stupid. Iran is not a nation I am comfortable with (no fundamentalist state of ANY religion is one I am comfortable with). But they have overall been a reasonable attempt at combining religion and a republic. Possibly ultimately a failed attempt, that remains to be seen. But an attempt. One of my good friends is from India and Iran (different branches fo the family from each). He has given me an appreciation for the complexities of Iran and of Shiites in general. Interestingly, he draws parallels between the Shiites and Jews.
Having said that, advocacy of the elimination of the state of Israel is not in any way justifiable in my mind.
As an aside, I don’t know that we have any more evidence that Israel is a nuclear power than Iran. But, in my mind, much as I don’t LIKE it, Iran has as much right as Israel or the US to BE a nuclear power. I think I made that clear earlier.
A generally or globally accepted total of Israel’s nuclear arsenal is conservatively put at 200 nuclear devices, despite Israel’s policy of ambiguity on the issue.
Yes, no nation or collective has the right to terrorize another nation or people through words or deeds.
Perhaps there are no exact words on the record to reflect the US desires toward Iraq, but in that case, I would think the actions of 15 years speak a lot lounder than words…but maybe I’m just splitting hairs.
I’m not necessarily defending Iran’s Prez, but hell, the saber-rattling comes around, goes around — I’ll be more worried about nations that send troops in, kill and bomb people, etc. etc.
If UN countries are going to start pointing fingers at each other, no one comes out clean.
I do agree that there is a great deal of hypocricy in what Western nations demand of others but not themselves. But in this case I do not see the actions even of Bush in Iraq as being the same as calling for the destruction of an entire nation. Israel recognizes the legitimacy of a Palestinian state, even if it doesn’t agree with the Palestinians on when and the exact territory. Israel does many bad things (as do the Palestinians) but they do not call for the destruction of the Palestinians. In fact, Jordan was the nation that came closest to that, I believe. I am not defending all the actions of the Western nations. But I do not feel that they have in any way called for the destruction of any nations.
But in this case I do not see the actions even of Bush in Iraq as being the same as calling for the destruction of an entire nation.
No – he’s actually gone into Iraq and done it. That’s why they’re now calling it “reconstruction”.
Calling for the destruction of a nation, actually destroyng a nation…hmmm, yep, the second one bothers me more. But that’s just me.
I do see your point, and I know that a lot of people are very passionate about all things Israel (I tend to stay away from those discussions as I am almost always misunderstood by BOTH sides of the argument!) — all I’m saying is that, for me, a nation’s actions are what is going to get me all fired up, not the ranting of it’s leader(s). Ill-conceived and inane ranting of one kind or another seems to be a requiredment for leaders of nations these days. Nothing any of them says surprises me anymore. [shrug]
Okay, this is a good point. I mostly agree with it. Where I would differ is that I put more importance on the call for genocide even if no action has been taken because many such calls throughout history get realized eventually. Bush is not calling for genocide. He is doing horrible, immoral, illegal things and I have spent huge amounts of time opposing him in the last 5 years. But he has not called for genocide. Israel and Palestine do horrible things to eachother, but at least officially they recognize eachother’s right to exist and do not call for genocide. Let me be clear that I am pro-Israel but also pro-Palestine. The two nations both deserve to exist and both nations have been committing horrible acts to eachother. But a call for genocide, which is what Iran is in essence calling for, is a step above what has been the reality in the area.
I can see it from your point of view as well. In fact on a day to day level, I consider (from an international point of view) what Bush does as horrible and Iran is fairly respectable. I don’t trust any fundamentalist regime, but Iran hasn’t really been a big threat to its neighbors like the US has been. But to see the potential for genocide in an official statement made by Iran is chilling to me.
Mole, do any of these statements jog your memory?
9a. David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): “If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti – Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?” Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.
9b. Ben Gurion also warned in 1948 : “We must do everything to insure they ( the Palestinians) never do return.” Assuring his fellow Zionists that Palestinians will never come back to their homes. “The old will die and the young will forget.”
A few of those do support the premise of the diary. I agree. Some are horrible but do not support the premise. Some are less horrible given the equivalent violence and hostility from the Palestinian side. But thank you. Some of these DO surprise me and DO support the diary’s premise. I still think that under CURRENT conditions, the condmenation of Iran is correct. But some of the earlier quotes you give show that Israel has not been above the same sentiments, at least in the past. Thanks for the information.
I appreciate your willingness to discuss this in such a rational way. We often have a tough time on the left on the issue of Israel and sometimes choose not to bring it up, unfortunately. It’s a very complex issue as are all of the happenings in the Middle East.
I just want to make it clear that I absolutely agree with you that any nation or leader calling for such destruction ought to be condemned. That was the point of my diary.
Then I agree.
It is a tough issue. There is no question that both sides have so much to answer for. Both have done so many violent, terrible acts. But, the Palestinians and the Jews are two groups that have been hurt the most by history. Most people have many places in the world where they would be safe. These two groups have no real place that, historically, are safe. They need their own nations as a place where, out of the entire hostile world, they can be safe. That has not been realized. I really wish it could be realized, but there is so much that has to be worked out first.
Anyway, thanks in return for being reasonable. This is the only issue where anyone has ever troll rater me. Generally on all the blogs I can argue with anyone civilly and respectfully. This is the one issue where sometimes it wasn’t possible to stay respectful.
I am glad this discussion did remain so.
apartheid regime of South Korea
South Africa??
oral or written, I don’t know, I could probably track it down, but while I’m doing that, Kim Jung Il will issue some decree about people with wide feet can’t ride in the front of the bus or something and it will all be for naught.
They misrepresented what he said?! I’m shocked, I tell you, SHOCKED!
….not….
On your charge of hypocrisy – I must say I agree; though it is such a common political response, everyone has become rather inured to it. From Khrushchev’s shoe incident to Powell’s bald-faced lie – truth has become a relative term, I’m afraid. Histrionics are expected, lies de rigueur. Outrage also falls into the political tool category. Doesn’t matter who’s spewing the vitriol – it’s as patently fake as the incident which prompted it.
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Golda Meir … Palestinian people don’t exist
Religious Right parties in Israel’s democracy for transfer of Palestinians across the Jordan river.
Binyamin Netanyahu’s Statement:
“I do not believe a sovereign Palestinian state is an historic imperative, any more than the triumph of socialism – which the same leftist parties once touted as inexorable – was preordained. Nor do I think that Israel can achieve peace only by making egregious unilateral concessions.”
Sharon’s policy – architect of settlements on Palestinian land – agreement with GWB: exit from Gaza, keep parts of the West Bank.
Masters of propaganda from Israel – I do not say it often – I puke when I hear their ugly propaganda statements from their cookbook.
The escalation since Gaza pull out has come from the IDF with renewal of assassinations by attack helicopters of F16 fighter planes. Daily harassment by flying over Palestinian territory breaking the sound barrier to impose fear.
The suicide attack in Hedera was a direct retaliation for IDF assassination of a Jihad leader on the West Bank.
Propaganda of Israel when they left the synagogue buildings intact in Gaza, for the Palestinians to raze as symbols of hatred for 38 years of military occupation and destruction.
The statements about Zionism can be read and heard across the Islamic world as part of their teachings, from Marocco to Indonesia. To pick up on the Iranian president now, is because it was convenient in the 3-pronged attack on Syria, Iraq and Iran. Likud policy embraced by Bush and paid for by American lives.
The statements made were to commemorate Palestinian day, a faint hope for an independent Palestinian state. The last promise made by phony Toni and lord George, a promise for a Palestinian state by 2005. But of course that promise was made in the euphoria to rough up Iraq and establish a democracy in the image of George Bush.
Uch … I should stop thinking and writing about the ME conflict between Palestinians and Israelis, as they themselves will have to reach a peace settlement.
Israel
Never Ending News Story :: Israeli strike kills seven Palestinians.
“Treason doth never prosper: what’s the reason?
For if it prosper, none dare call it treason.”
▼ ▼ ▼ MY DIARY
Poor Tony, not to be outdone by Nixon talking to portraits and Bush talking to God…Tony talks to shadows:
Getty Images©
Peace