I want to tackle this RFK thing from a slightly different angle. Let’s for the moment put aside all talk of assassination and look at this from the perspective of what she was asked. She was asked why people are asking her to drop out. We need to remind ourselves that she was attempting to answer that question. It’s a question that asks her to step into a non-supporter’s shoes and look at things from their perspective for a moment. Now, her answer to this question was that she didn’t know why people were asking her to drop out and that she found it somewhat mystifying given the history of long primaries in the past. She chose two poor examples to make her point, as the 1968 contest started and ended later than this one, and her husband’s 1992 campaign was effectively (if not mathematically) over in March. But it’s not so important that her examples were bad…what’s important is that she seems not to understand why she is being asked to drop out. So, I’ll explain it for her…real slow.
We have reached a point in the campaign where Barack Obama has won the majority of delegates that were available to win through the contests that have been held. What this means is that Barack Obama will win the nomination (provided he is still alive to accept it) unless an overwhelming number of superdelegates decide that he is unelectable. And I don’t mean that they will decide that he is less electable. They will only overturn the expressed will of the voters if they decide is absolutely unelectable. That’s their job and that’s why the superdelegates exist. Hillary Clinton doesn’t have much control over whether or not Barack Obama is unelectable. If her opposition research team has unearthed some horrible secret that will doom Obama once the Republicans get a hold of it, she should by all means come forward with that information before Obama accepts the nomination. But, otherwise, she should cease arguing that she is more electable. No one cares if she is more electable so long as Obama is electable. But let me make this more clear. Should anything happen that renders Barack Obama unelectable between now and the convention, the delegates (who are all technically free agents) will be free to choose someone else as the nominee. This is true even on the first ballot where most delegates are ‘pledged’ to support a particular candidate. They are ‘pledged’, but they are not ‘obligated’. They can choose to vote for whomever they want. And, provided a compelling enough reason (think Eliot Spitzer) they will do so.
What this means is that Hillary Clinton can be the nominee if Obama is somehow rendered unelectable (through scandal or sudden death), and that she can even be elected on the first ballot. And, because she ran a strong campaign and received nearly 50% of the vote and 50% of the delegates, she has a far, far stronger claim to be the back-up nominee than the third place finisher John Edwards, or any of the other candidates. She doesn’t need to win more delegates to improve her case and she doesn’t need to win more popular votes to improve her case.
So, let’s imagine a hypothetical situation where Barack Obama is no longer with us for some reason when we get to Denver. Anyone can be nominated on the first ballot, even people that were not candidates in the race. Let’s say that Al Gore were to be nominated. If all of Clinton’s pledged delegates and announced superdelegates stayed with her on the first ballot, she’d be in a commanding position. But she’d still need to win over some Obama delegates to secure the nomination. It’s true that she can lower that number by winning a few more delegates out of Puerto Rico, South Dakota, and Montana, but not by much. Her real mission would be to woo undecided superdelegates and Obama delegates to prefer her to Al Gore. And by running a negative campaign all the way through to the end, she will have given the Obama delegates and many of the undecided supers more reason to oppose her candidacy.
In other words, she is making her nomination less, rather than more, likely by scrapping for every last vote and delegate, and in doing it in a negative way. That is precisely why her active candidacy right now makes no strategic sense if her goal is to win this year’s nomination.
So, why are people asking her to drop out then? The answer is multifaceted but still rather simple. She has already established her case to be the fall-back candidate should anything disastrous happen to Obama or his campaign. That’s done. Nothing is guaranteed to her, but she can’t improve her case through further campaigning. Meanwhile, she is doing four things that are hurting Obama. She is imposing an opportunity cost on him by forcing him to campaign in places like Puerto Rico that have no votes in November. That costs time and money and it prevents him from focusing on John McCain, on building his campaign team, and on expanding the map of potentially competitive states. She is also actively delegitimizing the process by which he won the nomination and hardening her supporters feelings against Obama. This makes it harder to unite the party for the main contest. She is arguing that Obama is not an adequate nominee and strongly suggesting he is unelectable. It’s never good to have a fellow Democrat running down the qualifications of the presidential nominee. Lastly, she is sucking up money and volunteer hours for her own campaign, much of which should be made available for Obama and other Democrats running for office. And she isn’t paying her bills. For all these reasons, there is a real cost to Clinton staying in the race, and she doesn’t get anything tangible out of it except to worsen her chances of winning a brokered convention.
I really want to hammer home the point that Clinton is not improving her chances of being elected president this year by continuing her campaign. She’s making her chances worse. This is a critical point which is vital to understanding why people are insistent that she drop out. By her own logic, should something happen to Obama she would be in the best position to be the nominee, but that will not change by her continuing to actively run for president. It can only harm her chances by hardening opposition to her candidacy.
There is a small subset of the Democratic Party that thinks that Barack Obama is already unelectable, and they want Clinton to be the nominee to save the party from itself. But these people need to accept that, like pornography, the delegates will know unelectability when they see it. And they are not currently seeing it. If they come to see it for any reason, they will not vote for him in Denver. And they will choose Clinton as the alternative unless they deeply resent her or they see her as also being unelectable.
To be charitable, Clinton’s recent comments about hardworking white voters and the RFK assassination have not improved her perceived electability. She would do better to stop antagonizing Obama supporters and undecided supers, and to get some rest and lay low for a while, than to continue what even the Governor of her state sees as desperate tactics.
As it is, she has already ruined her chances of being on the ticket as vice-president and is rapidly losing her chance to be the second choice candidate, should something tragic happen. So, if we are judging things by how they help Clinton, she has not been too successful lately. But if we are judging things by how they hurt Obama, she has been all too successful.
For these reasons, it really appears that one of two things is the case. Either Clinton is somewhat unhinged and is engaged in self-destructive behavior, or she is actively undermining Obama’s chances, not of winning the nomination, but of winning the election in November.
And in either of these two cases, it is necessary for responsible people to ask her to drop out. That’s the answer to the question she could not answer.
Also available at the Great Orange Satan.
Here’s the question WE need to answer for ourselves.
What are we going to do to the so-called leaders of our party if they do NOT take action after this?
Money, volunteers, and votes – those are the mother’s milk of politics. What can we do to affect any of these? If we can answer that then we will have an answer to your question.
It’s called FREEDOM: people can act as stupidly as they want. It’s your job, if you believe in freedom (like the Rovian logic?), to protect her right to be an asshole in public.
Clinton is about as right to continue campaigning as cigarette smokers who think they are fighting ‘the man’ by smoking. I still think they have the right to act how they want and bear the consequences.
Obama will be fine, even if the pantsuit lady from Arkansas (Pa, Ill, etc.) tries to turn over the card table. In fact, that needs to be done cuz the game’s been fixed so far..
Let her yank on all the strings of power she can pull.. The more vicious, desperate, senseless and divisive Clinton is, the more Obama fulfills his pledge of representing Change – simply by being decent.
You’ve just never lived in Britain, with it’s terrifying police state and $12/pack — no, that’s not exaggerating — cigarettes.
On Clinton’s motivation, I came across this rather curious comment:
Are we perhaps missing the ‘big picture’ here?
You think Obama hasn’t made the same alliances and promises?
Please.
Grow the fuck up.
He would not be in the position he presently hoilds if he not passed the Israel test with flying colors.
Read his speeches.
AG
AG, I’m sorry you miss the distinction between the “hawks” and the “moderates”?
FreemasonsJews Rule the World!Maybe, just maybe we could stop complaining about one groups’ undue influence over the power structure and EMPOWER SOMEONE YOU BELIEVE IN. There is a thin line between whining about your ideological impotence and scapegoating Jews. Frankly the issue has some merit, but some of us here are sounding a lot like that racist lady from WV the MSM keeps looping.
If you’d like to change the power balance in the world, holding your nose, pointing and blaming minorities (even powerful ones) won’t get you far. You’ll just be the guy who got pissed about the way things are and chose to diminish himself through myopic hate instead of making change. It wasn’t this way 50 years ago and it won’t be in another 50. Chill the hell out on the Bobby Fisher shit.
If you want to reduce Israeli influence in this country, the path is actually simple and doesn’t go through AIPAC. Just elect a non-Christian, preferably an atheist.
It’s Christians who worship a Jew on a stick and it’s American Christians who have overtly acknowledged the Jew’s supposed Right to the Promised land as a a critical element in their End of Days-infused crackpot Theocratic ideology. This means Jews are Chosen by God to Rule this world, but not the next. Stop electing those guys, and THEN you can talk all the shit you want. It’s kind of obvious who’s got their ear before AIPAC even shows up.
Why not talk about the undue influence of The Fellowship (aka the Family) – or the Knights of Malta or fucking Coca Cola or Merck?
Maybe, just maybe we could stop complaining about one groups’ undue influence over the power structure and EMPOWER SOMEONE YOU BELIEVE IN. There is a thin line between whining about your ideological impotence and scapegoating Christians. Frankly the issue has some merit, but some of us here are sounding a lot like that racist lady from WV the MSM keeps looping.
If you’d like to change the power balance in the world, holding your nose, pointing and blaming religions (even powerful ones) won’t get you far. You’ll just be the guy who got pissed about the way things are and chose to diminish himself through myopic hate instead of making change. It wasn’t this way 50 years ago and it won’t be in another 50. Chill the hell out on the Richard Dawkins shit.
It’s nice to see someone almost see that there are 2 sides to every coin… my point exactly.. We could alter the same text to speak about Turkey’s influence or China’s or or or or or or..
Maybe, just maybe, the problem lies in the rules of the game rather than the particular actor who is exploiting them at the time. If you rid the world of AIPAC tomorrow, then the enemy will be the China lobby or Big Pharma, or or or or or…
The problem here is that your comment had nothing to do with the discussion at hand. The comment you were responding to – and most people here who discuss Israel – are quite careful to be very specific about who they’re condemning. It’s not Jews, it’s not even the Israeli public. It’s the hawk-ish, racist Zionists – including the very Christian Fundamentalists you claim they aren’t opposing – that are currently engaged in a campaign of genocide against the Palestinians.
Looking at the big picture is well and good, but solving the world’s problems by changing the big picture is impossible. It’s too large and too complicated, and attempting to change it always, always causes more harm than help. What we can do is work on the smaller things. Millions of people at once working on thousands of different smaller things is a much better way to change the big picture than one revolutionary with grand ideals.
But, but, but it wouldn’t be a proper conspiracy if “the Jews” weren’t in charge of it!
Where do you find that I said “Jews” in my comment? Last time I looked, “Jews” and “AIPAC” are not synomymous … however much “you” might want us to believe that! And even then, I made a distinction between the “hawks” (the Liebermans) and the “moderates” (the Wexlers). For crying out loud!
Why don’t you get on about Turkish influence? I wonder.
And ultimately, I just don’t want good people wasting their time and reputation by focussing on a small aspect of a much larger picture…
Unwittingly.
You have all bought into it. HRC is wrong no matter what she says or does.
So it goes.
I hope that the people who are orchestrating this…and I truly believe that is it is being orchestrated, that y’all are being played like violins by Rovian forces that are slavering over the idea of opposing Obama rather than Clinton…I hope that they are as wrong about this choice as they have been about most others.
However, the only areas in which that they have NOT been wrong have been political. So…we shall see.
Soon enough.
Best of luck. Either the biggest Fitzmas of all is headed our way this November…YOUR way, because I have had no part in this demonization/sanctification dumbshow… or the Rats have seriously misjudged Obama’s vulnerability.
We shall soon see.
They certainly haven’t misjudged yours.
Best of luck.
Hang by your thumbs, and call if you get work.
Later…
AG
you can’t address a single merit of any sentence of what I wrote? Sad.
It has long been that way, from what I’ve seen.
And why.
If you want a reason for my relatively non-specific approach, read no further than this quote, Booman.
If you believe either of these two memes it is YOU who is seriously unhinged, and it is your media addiction that has done the unhinging.
She is not crazy, she is not “running for 2012” and she is definitely not some sort of right wing mole who is working for McCain’s election in order to maintain the neo-fascist status quo that oresently exists in the United States.
And…she has lost.
At least partially because of the work of the media-addicted, currently seriously unhinged left.
You have swallowed the pro-Obama hook, line and stinker that has been trolled by the right, and the only chance that still remains regarding an end to the economic imperialist 100 Years’ War that started in Vietnam is that Obama:
1-Actually manages to win the election. (And survive…Clinton was dead on.)
and
2-Turns out to be what he presents himself to be. A visionary politician who can navigate the shoals and obstructions of the American system well enough to get something done rather than Jimmy Carter v.2.
We shall see.
Good work, fellas.
I personally think that you have lost the election for yourselves.
Maybe you’re addicted to Fitzmasses, too.
Sad.
For every masochist there is a willing master.
Bet on it.
i have suggested this to you before, and met with incredul;ous mockery. I will continue to do so, because I believe at heart you are a good person.
Turn off your TV, Booman.
Especially MSNBC and the other leftiness shows like The Daily Show and that insipid asshole on HBO.
Go cold turkey.
Foir three weeks at the minimum.
You be bettah off.
AG
Are you familiar with the Court Jester as a archetype? He is allowed to speak the truth because he never, ever says anything that can be construed as an alternative to the rule of the King. That’s you, clown. WHAT WOULD YOU DO?
What’s you alternative AG? Electing the great Hillary? Haven’t heard why except you seem to like the Damsel in Distress archetype as well..
You don’t support Hillary, you say? You also don’t watch TV so you can set back and tell us all we are dumb for knowing the enemy? Isolating ourselves from information is definitely the answer. Good one. We’ll likely meet with political success if we have no idea how the power structure is using the media, we’re bound to be able to defeat it’s influence.
At least we’ll be as self-indulgently blissful as your non-participatory, non-constructive ass. Then we can all believe whatever it is you believe in – which is only evident from it’s exclusion from the litany of complaint your logorrheic fingers issue.
If you don’t think this is all an attempt to JOIN THE POWER STRUCTURE IN ORDER TO INFLUENCE IT, you are wrong and should go hang out with anarchists who will receive your neo-nihilist drivel as gospel. We are not just passengers on the Bus to Babylon, we’re trying to grab the wheel in the attempt to go ANYWHERE else. If it takes a whopper of a marketing scheme to get there, so be it.
NIce to not have a horse in the race and to complain that it is on an oval track.
On the other hand, I really dig the well branded form of your comments. We certainly have some individuals in the pond.
My alternative is to run HRC as Vice-President on an Obama ticket in order to ensure a Dem victory, as would be plain had you read my stuff.
“Never, ever saying anything that can be construed as an alternative to the rule of the King?” Is that my problem, bunky?
I got news fer ya, anarchronarchist. Media IS the king. Media is the ruler, and you are right at this moment dancing to its subliminal beat.
No, I do not watch TV. Certainly not the news or its hand-in-glove helper, advertising. Not in any form. I would no more do that than I would use one of those “Learn While You Sleep” subliminal recorded courses if it was produced by say Scientlology or the Department of Defense.
If programs like the Daily Show and Keith Olbermann are in ANY WAY supported by big business…financial big business or big pharma particularly…then they have been vetted by the content police and found to be safely within the allowable realm of safe control of the population. If you do not know and understand this…a concept that includes the mass media acceptance and support of any big-time national political candidate as well, by the way…then you are quite simply asleep at the wheel. The ongoing mass media bias towards Obama and against Clinton…massive in its scope and as plain as day once you manage to take the blinders off…is as plain a warning as can be given that there is something seriously rotten in the state of media Denmark.
And you do not see it.
Hmmmmmm…
Hypnotized into believing that you are awake, living in a tragic never-never land from which there is no escape. Why? because you do not recognize the need for escape.
America today…the vast parts of it that are under total control of the media…is a perfect example of that old adage regarding the devil. The one that says his greatest trick lay in convincing human beings that he did not exist.
Yup.
“Awaken? Why?” say the sleeple as they shift positions of the bed of media-accepted life, secure in the fantasy that the left or right side of that bed is the correct one.
You write:
Your blind attacks on the alarm clock…me, in this instance…tell the truth of the matter. You DO have “no idea how the power structure is using the media”, because you live in the mistaken idea that since you do not watch Fox News you are immune to the disease.
Beware the orthdoxy, anarchronarchist. The left, right OR center orthodoxy. If it is brought to you by Zoloft and ING, it is a false flag operation and it is busily planting its own little flags in your brain while you congratulate yourself on how hip you are to be watching MNBC.
You also write:
You are already self-indulgently blissful if you partake in the lemming-like leftiness march over the anti-Clinton cliff.
Disagree with her?
Sure.
Me too.
Demonize her? Which is what is happening here.
Do so at the risk of your own mortal ass, because that is the basic and only idea behind the Republican Party’s attempt to hold power in the United States today. It is perfectly obvious that they think Obama is beatable…more beatable than is Clinton at the very least, and less dangerous to them should they fail…and further that any one of the two is more beatable than both of them. Thus the ongoing crescendo of “He said/She said” media hype.
It’s the “Let’s you and her fight” routine. And you have fallen for it, as has almost the entire leftiness brigade.
“NIce to not have a horse in the race and to complain that it is on an oval track?”
Lord.
SURVIVAL is my horse, and the oval track is being used to run a fixed race.
Finally, you also write:
and
You are so media-ed out that you speak in advertising drivel.
“Whopper of a marketing scheme?”
“Well branded?”
You wear the brand. You and the entire left.
Right behind your forehead.
Bet on it.
Google the terms <CIA + “operation mockingbird”>
Go ahead.
I dare ya.
Read for an hour or two.
It’s old info, of course, and the DISinfo is just that. It’s old; it’s over, etc.
Well…it is NOT over and it has progressed just as has TV, from the good ol’, primitive ol’ black-and-white days to a million colors in Hi-Def.
Wake the fuck up.
Or don’t. As you must.
I have. And I must admit, it’s lonely out here.
So it goes.
Have fun.
McCain’s not THAT bad of a good ol’ boy, right? Wif that mad twinkle in his eye?
But HILLARY!!!
Nice, anarchronarchist.
Good work.
Hurry .
Keith O will be on soon.
You self-congratulatory, softy moody leftiness shmoo packrunner.
They are gonna EAT YOU UP, the right wing.
Watch.
Fitzmas?
You can’t HANDLE the Fitzmasses they’ve got headed your way.
Wake the fuck up.
AG
all of this in defense of a Clinton.
It’s so preposterous that it is mere self-parody.
The truth IS preposterous.
That makes it no less true.
And of course:
Understanding the game becomes easy, too.
Take the orthodoxy…any and EVERY ortohodoxy…stand it on its head and spin it backwards.
Whatcha got?
The truth of the matter.
Every time.
Bet on it.
Try it yourself.
You be bettah off too.
I’m a Marxist, y’know.
A Groucho Marxist.
Have fun, Booman.
I am.
Later…
AG
P.S. Preposterous, eh?
Mere self-parody?
Horsefeathers!!!
Ok. Sorry.
What have you got against Bill Maher?
AG, I think you need to lie down for a while.
Besides the fact that he is a knee-jerk leftiness panderer? And that he is not funny. And that he gives air time to assholes who bring the dialogue down instead of up? And that he is an apologist for Israel’s actions against the Palestinians?
Nothing.
Wake the fuck up and take your head out of the TV’s asshole.
AG
Dude. I want him to be good sooo badly.. His monologues? WTF? His contribution to the whole show is like watching the last 5 minutes of countdown.. You expect politics and debate and you get star worship.
Luckily he’s got great guests. I mean Prof West has been on there like 20 times. That guy doesn’t mince words.
The only reason Obama didn’t clinch the nomination after Texas was because Limbaugh started getting his moron brigade to turn out in droves for Hillary. And you think the Republicans really want to face Obama? Based on what evidence?
I have an old, old cat and she barfs up her food every few days or so. In fact, she just did. Thinking about getting a roll of paper towels and scooping up that smelly, chunky, gross barf makes me feel the same way I do about you.
Booman, you have the patience of a saint. I am way past “look[ing] at this from the perspective of what she was asked.” Her answer was so bad, that I can’t care anymore about what the question was.
Booman,
Great post, I agree with 99% of what you wrote. I take exception only to your assertion that Hillary “ran a strong campaign.” Her campaign was a disaster from start to finish, and she did very poorly in this primary contest, especially when we consider the incredible advantages that she started with.
Apparently she doesn’t care too much about her political future, because at the rate she’s going there isn’t going to be a welcome mat for her in the US Senate.
I’d have to agree, her campaign hasn’t raised her positives and has vastly increased her negatives.
oh, and she lost.
If she does end up with the nomination, it won’t be because of her Campaign.
There is logic to the observation that of the many tortured Clinton scandals we all had to live through; they were Hillary’s.
And now, looking at her staunch position that she is a victim, yes a presidential candidate, but one that is a victim of sexism that has robbed her of her due; I understand that Bill’s scandal with Monica was actually another Hillary scandal – because she had to be the victim.
Whatever is going on is beyond unhealthy.
Arthur thinks the things that come out of Hillary’s mouth are orchestrated by others? Rich!
But apparently, “the fix is in” and this is all a ploy to get Obama nominated so he can lose. The GOP has it all figured out.
Of course…that totally negates everything AG was saying before when the “the fix was in” and we were just lost little puppies too stupid to realize that everything was being set up for a Clinton win.
It wasn’t until she started losing did we all get accused of sexism, even us women (we were told we’re self-hating by a few people) and you know, “the fix is in” as Clinton’s losses were just a lure of false hope. Jan. – Feb. we got that one.
Of course! Haven’t you seen her on TV? She hasn’t been wearing her tinfoil hat, so she’s vulnerable to the mind-control microwaves riding satellite TV broadcasts.
As I heard her comments, the point of your post – that she doesn’t NEED to stay in to be the fallback #2 – passed through my mind briefly and fluttered away, only to be wonderfully rediscovered as if for the first time in this brilliant post.
If something terrible happens to Obama who wouldn’t have a thought in the back of his/her mind that maybe, maybe, maybe Hillary, who keeps predicting it, didn’t actually know something or was in on it?
I’m not saying that she is in on any plot. I’m saying that killing off Obama’s chances is the end game. And that means this is the end of her presidential hopes too. She’s taken one for the team.
She is sabotaging the Democratic Party. If Gilroy sat through this campaign and didn’t notice Clinton repeatedly praising McCain and saying that Obama wasn’t qualified, didn’t see the reactionary media circle around her to attack Obama, then Gilroy is pretty incapable of observing what’s in front of his eyes.
The more I have thought about her remark the clearer it is to me that she knows she will get the nomination ONLY if something terrible takes Obama out of the race. She has no scandal to use or it would be out therefore only a physical disaster befalling Obama would allow here to win. She has obviously allowed herself dark daydreams to avoid facing the failure of her campaign. Musing about RFK, another inspiring young candidate, has been just below the surface for weeks. Hillary is exhausted now and her natural restrains are diminished.
All of us allow ourselves innocent revenge fantasies. Who hasn’t briefly imagined something bad happening to someone we are angry at? However, we seldom give voice to them unless we are with trusted acquaintances who realize it is only our frustration or anger speaking. They know we would never act on our impulses and in truth we would be horrified if something terrible did indeed happened to the object of our anger, but deep down we are searching for some way to make the person disappear from our lives.
Hillary’s monumental failure was to not immediately offer a complete unqualified apology.
She would get the nomination if something bad were to happen to Obama, except that be repeatedly saying it she is “wishfully thinking it” in public, which, if forbid something happened to Obama, would make her less likely to win the nomination.
Those are all indeed good reasons why she should drop out. But I think we are past reason. Eugene Robinson gets to the heart of it:
That sounds about right.
Hillary’s new home state newspapers are not very kind either: Take the NY Post and
NY Daily News nails it. Go read the editorial.
Hillary Clinton’s colossal blunder simply the last straw
Wow. That’s brutal.
Why do people do things? What is at the core of their personal motivation? Why does Hillary keep on saying things that she has to conditionally apologize for? (If this offends anyone, etc.,) Why won’t she gracefully bow out and allow Obama to focus all his efforts – financial, intellectual, physical – on defeating McCain come November?
I don’t really know anymore. I realize she’s very ambitious, probably narcissistic, glib, incredibly determined (driven?), opportunistic, shallow, and quite materialistic. Maybe, I should just follow the money trail.
The Clintons started out with no great wealth and, yet, have put together a fortune of some 100+ million dollars. Where did all this money come from since most of their working lives have been spent in politics? Could it be that HRC and Bill have become staunch members of “the System?” That what she is doing now is weakening her opponent so the elders of empire stay in power and continue to reap the benefits therefrom?
What’s the old saying? follow the money. I think of how her husband favored big business (NAFTA, continued large military budgets even though the cold war was over, ended the last financial regulation of the banking system, reduced the number of people receiving welfare) and I realize what a champion the moneyed interests had in President Clinton.
Obama threatens this cozy connection. So if you can’t beat him, wreck him. Hillary may be just the last defense of a group which puts their own interests over the nation’s. What a peculiar situation for the Empire to find itself in. Conflicted by the forces of its own greed.
Are those the soft steps of Nemesis that I hear drawing ever closer?
Yes, there is precedent for what she is doing: 1968, 1976, 1980, 1984 and 1988 all saw protracted primary battles in one of the parties. The thing all those years have in common is that the party with the late contested primary lost every single general election.
Can you name a year when what Hillary is doing was actually successful and helped a party win in November?
And no 1992 doesn’t count for the reason Booman mentions: the nomination was over long before Bill Clinton finally reached the magic number by winning California in June. In fact, 1992 was very similar to this year except the other contenders got out of the race and helped the presumptive nominee instead of fighting to the last delegate. How did that work out for the party in contrast to all the above fights?
1992’s a poor example anyway. The Clinton retroactive co-presidency ticket’s victory is doubtful without the infighting on the right and vote-splitting caused by Perot.
She chose two poor examples to make her point, as the 1968 contest started and ended later than this one, and her husband’s 1992 campaign was effectively (if not mathematically) over in March.”
It’s a question of judgment, poor judgment. She said this twice on essentially the same question. This is a supposedly intelligent woman saying I’m staying put because he may get a bullet?
“She is also actively delegitimizing the process by which he won the nomination and hardening her supporters feelings against Obama…..And she isn’t paying her bills.”
She does not care. It’s all about that we owe the family and they own the party
[.]“I really want to hammer home the point that Clinton is not improving her chances of being elected president this year by continuing her campaign.”
No BooMan, Clinton has no chance of being elected this year or any year into the future. (Look at Ted Kennedy and Mary Jo, same analogy). Hillary’s time chart has expired; gone – as wiped out to beyond 2012.
Look up my dozens of comments during the past year before the active campaign began – “Hillary Clinton’s campaign will implode and if by fluke she is the nominee, she will not win the General Election”
From the point of view of the Clinton Three:
As long as Mrs. Clinton stays in the race, Obama hasn’t won. If she stops, then Obama has won and there is absolutely no longer any chance of her being nominated without Obama’s exit from the process. So if something bad happens to Obama—there are so many possibilities like car or plane accident, sickness, life is full of horrors—then she will still be in the race and can maintain that since she had not stopped contesting the nomination, she won it fair and square on her own merits under the newly developed circumstances. You know, something like that’s the way the cookie crumbles. After all, she is not so very far behind Obama, and he couldn’t be rightly called the nominee before he was struck by misfortune because she was still ‘fighting’ and the party in the person of super delegates had not given him victory. I’d say she really wasn’t thinking specifically of Obama’s possible assassination. Instead she foolishly mentioned RFK’s assassination because it may strengthened her in her conviction that a disaster-strategy is not so far-fetched. I’m not defending the Clinton Three. They must go and they must not be allowed to twist the Denver convention to their ends by any grandstanding or being allowed to address the convention. Denver is the Obama convention! The Clinton Three are history, as non-historians are inclined to put it.
Put more simply:
If Mrs. Clinton stops before Obama is not able to accept or to be awarded the nomination for whatever reason, and if the Denver convention nominates her, she will be second choice because she earlier had conceded.
But if she does not stop before then, she might not exactly be first choice while on the other hand it will be harder to brand her as second choice, you know, because she did win Florida and Michigan, and think about the caucuses, the misogyny, and whatever you might want to think of, blah, blah, blah.
No matter what, her behavior can hardly be called inspirational. The rumor (?) that she (her campaign, surrogates, what’s the difference?) are planning to pack irate Floridan supporters of hers into buses and send them to Washington to protest the credentials meeting on May 31, reminded of the mafia tactics of the Republicans when they forced an end to the Florida recount in 2000 by staging disturbances. What fun, a bus trip for old people from Florida to Washington. With all her cash, she could at least offer them train or plane tickets.
What I haven’t heard yet is probably what just might happen …….
Just as before, if for what ever horrible reason a new candidate were needed, it is very possible the powers that be in the DNC could very well reach out to a popular well know figure to step up to the plate ……
Hillary wouldn’t be able to stop Al Gore’s nomination any better then she has stopped Barack Obama’s. And after yesterdays foot in mouth comment she just might face such a future.
I thought about this last night. After all the negatives that HRC has racked up in her own party, if something happened to Obama, the majority on the convention floor would be chanting, “Gore! Gore! Gore!” And he’d accept.
“Ms. Clinton, if something awful were to happen to Barack Obama, how long do you think it would be before something awful happened to you?”
Here’s a question for the folks on the fainting couch to answer.
If Hillary really said “I am RFK, and Obama will be shot” then why is RFK Jr. defending her? Why does he accept the apology and not Booman? Doesn’t the fact that RFK’s OWN SON is telling people to calm the fuck down and stop misconstruing her remarks register with anyone?
Why hasn’t there been a post on RFK Jr.’s remarks on Booman yet? Wait, never mind, that question answers itself.
Wow, I just looked around and noticed that my attempt to post RFK Jr.’s defense of Hillary was hidden. Sent down the memory hole.
I never thought I’d see the day when a gaggle of random wankers gets to shout down the son of a dead man when speaking of his father. Well, flying cars can’t be far behind, can they?
As one of the many disaffected Hillary supporters who is currently deciding whether to support my parties nominee or do to do what is in my candidates interest which would be to support the republican candidate so that my candidate can run again in 2012, I take note of the fact that this writer believes my candidate is crazy or as it was put has become “unhinged”.
I want universal health care, I want the Iraq war ended, I like progressive judges, want taxes on the wealthy increased and believe in comprehensive immigration reform. With that said I think I can live with another 4 years wherein none on my agenda get passed into law. Paramount on that list is the war and I can be persuaded to support the war as long as the casualties arent high. Even if Roe v Wade is overturned abortion will not be made illegal my state. I could also be persuaded that the tax increases I want on the wealthy are not completely neccesary as long as the economy improves, which it probably will anyway.
What I cant live with is sanctioning the way the left wing of my party has treated HRC. To call her
“unhinged”, to believe that she wants to see Obama assassinated simply because she her belief that she is the democrats only hope for victory, even if that hope is a only 1 in a hundred shot, is making Obama have to defend his nomination seems untenable to me.
To assail her for not pretending that this party has unified behind Obama, when voters in 2 states with excellent track records for reflecting general election results have just repudiated him, and indicated that they will not vote for him in the General election, smacks of orchestration.
You set up a system where a certain demographic votes are more valuable than another groups votes. A close popular vote election ensues and the candidate supported by the more powerful demographic has a 10% lead in the delegates chosen in spite of the fact that the votes that selected those delegates are far more evenly split. Information comes out about the leading candidate that alienates him from a large percentage of the others supporters. Rather that play the process out to see where the party as a whole stands with this new information the supporters of the leading candidate decide that its time to end the process. How convenient.
In about 5 1/2 months the democratic party will lose its 8th election of the last 11 by nominating a candidate known to be disliked by the nations swing voters, in spite of the fact that that candidate did not even win a majority of the parties popular vote. When that happens it will rank as the greatest blunders in modern presidential political history.
I not in the US, so I don’t really give a damn whether Obama or Clinton gets nominated, but vote for McCain and the resulting deaths are on your conscience.
Clinton or Obama will most likely be standard issue moderately evil US foreign policy. McCain looks like being a continuation of bat-shit crazy Bush policy. How many hundreds of thousands of extra dead do you think that’ll lead to?
Those deaths should be on your conscience as much as any one elses. The Obama pre-mar 18 was perfectly electable and I was more than willing to support him. After Rev Wright he became unelectable. A Rasmussen poll in Mar indicated that 56% of voters were less likely to vote for Obama. However liberals decided that they didnt care. It is at that point that Obama supporters and the party picked Ideology over the good of the party. Why should any HRC supporter stay loyal to the party when Obama supporters werent.
See the bit where I pointed out I wasn’t American and couldn’t give a shit who got the nomination? Short of Ireland declaring war on the US there won’t be much I can do do stop McCain.
In November, party loyalty won’t be the issue. McCain vs someone will be, and if you vote for McCain you own him.
Well thats what I dont agree with. I think McCain wins the elction the Obama campaign will be just as culpable as Hill camp. If you are going to throw your support behind an unelectabe candidate you have to own that fact if and when that candidate proves to be unelectable.
We’re not talking about McCain winning. We’re talking about you – or anyone else – voting for him.
Supporting or voting for Obama (or Clinton) is not voting for McCain. Voting for McCain is.
Responsibility to the party is about more than just voting. Lets just say I am only half serious about voting for McCain. Our conversation would be over but do you think there arent enough people like me that will actually act on their present impulses to cost the Dems the White House. My point was that the moderates that the democratic party needs to win the election dont need the party as much as the party needs them. It was stupid to nominate a candidate that alienates them. Moderates like me can be persuaded to vote McCain. For millions of whites in middle america, when the alternative is a man whose pastor of 20 years damn america five days after 9/11 and now calls him disingenious, Mc Cain will be a pill they are willing to swallow. The democratic party should know that, but it is currently in denial because it does not think black people are mature enough to accept the fact that their candidate of choice is not electable.
Hey, if McCain is a pill you’re willing to swallow, go for it: it probably won’t kill you – the victims will be mostly far away. I’m just saying that anyone who votes for him owns the consequences in a way that someone who votes for someone else doesn’t.
If someone votes for McCain because they don’t think Obama is electable, then they’re idiots, but what can you do? You don’t know if he’s electable until after the election.
If you’re saying the US is too racist to elect a black man you might be right: I’m not convinced it’s mature enough to elect a woman either, so McCain wins either way.
I think that says everything that needs to be said about Clinton’s remaining supporters.
nah…this says all you need to know:
the rest of the screed is irrelevant. while offering a glimpse into the rationale, it only serves to expose the shallowness of their reasoning.
these people are neither progressives, nor liberals…they’re marginally democrats…at the end of the day, the kindest term l can come to is that they’re idolaters…/me, my, mine…truly pathetic.
funny how the shoe always ends up on the other foot, isn’t it.
Thats my point genious. Im moderate. Im a reagan democrat. I can live with McCain. The democrats in West Virginia and Kentucky and Pennsylvania and Ohio can live with McCain. He’s not even even that offensive as far as Republicans go. Obama will not be elected. It wont even be close. You think hes going to get a larger percentage of the white vote than war hero John Kerry got after the republican 527 run an ad with the guy whose family William Ayers tried to kill and he ask the voters why a decent man would invite a man like Ayers to launch his political career. When they pay the guy from Obamas church to come out and say that indeed obama was in the pews during Rev Wrights controversial sermons and that he heard Obama say that he agrees with everything Wright says. These controversies are the type that attack the essence of Obamas message. They made him unelectable. Liberals should have learned the lessons of the past and dumped him, but instead they will lose the election because many moderate dems like me will defect and Obama will not be able to make up the difference with Independents against the candidate with the most credible anti-goverment waste record in america – which is McCain.
you’re not moderate…you’re republican…”lite”…if that helps salve your conscience, and it appears, racist as well.
if you can’t/won’t acknowledge that voting for mccain is voting for a continuation of the failed and catastrophic policies of the past 8 years, basically BushCo™, the sequel…if you really believe it’s in your, and your candidates best interests to see mccain elected, with all the baggage that entails…from 100 year wars, to, most likely, 2 supreme court appointments, and the lasting effects that those appointments will have on, womens’ rights, civil rights, etc., you’re fooling yourself.
that you seem to believe that would be an acceptable sacrifice based on the, highly unlikely, prospect that your candidate would be the front runner in 2012, is demonstrative of your lack of connection to reality.
your candidate has burnt so many bridges, and alienated such a huge proportion of the base, that she’ll be lucky if she can hold on to her senate seat.
l’m not willing to sacrifice the well being of this country on the altar erected for hillary clinton. that you appear to me more than willing to do so indicates that you are indeed out of touch with reality, and neither prepared, nor open to, debating the issues.
see you at obama’s inauguration in january.
btw, what flavour is that kool-ade?
l’m through with you.
g’day.
Im sure you are through with me. Most liberals are intellectually lazy and abandon arguments they cant win. Whatever you call my views, those views, and those to the right of me represent more than 50% of the vote.
You say that I might be fooling myself, and you may be right. But we moderates and conservates are in the majority and my prediction is that after McCain and company show us those cool commercials that show us what Black Liberation Theology is…or at least there interpretation of it… were not going to vote for Obama but we probably would have voted for Hillary. You see, we know hillary is a less than truthful, but we also know that the country will be in pretty good hands with her in charge. Not so sure about that with Obama.
BTW nice job of calling a black man racist. But of course in your mind one need not actually do something to qualify as a racist. In the liberal mind racism is not an act but actually a state of mind. So a black Hillary Clinton supporter could very well be a racist.
You’re not a moderate. You’re a far-right conservative, and a racist to boot. It’s perfectly possible to be racist and black, just like it’s possible to be misogynist and female. And for future reference, you haven’t actually made any arguments yet. You’ve tossed out a lot of unsupported assertions. Arguments require facts. The facts show that Obama can and will win. Do you really believe that if any of the tactics you claim will destroy him would work? If they would, Hillary “Exterminate” Clinton would already have used them.
What a dummy you are. If you had read my post you would know that I am against the war , that I like progressive judges, that I am pro-choice, that I am for raising taxes and as Clinton supported voted against Bob Dole and for Bill Clinton. But I guess those positions put me on the far right with Pat Robertson. As far as being a racist I agree that it is possible to believe that ones own kind is inferior, but its my experience that the people that I have met that truely believed blacked people are inferior are liberals. I hope its not too nuanced a position for you, but the people that would never live near, date, work for, or be known to associate with black people have always been white liberals who are voting for Obama now. Insofar as my failure to ” make any arguments” I will tell you this. Strategic thinking requires wisdom, not facts. Its impossible to prove that a basketball team with a dominant center will go further in playoff even if the finished the regular season with a recors that wouldnt support that projection. But anyone with that knows anything about basketball knows the importance of a dominant center in playoff basketball. Whats missing in this debate is wisdom. John Kerry himself would have been a smarter person to nominate than Obama. You think the american people regret having rejected him in favor of a second Bush term. You think the swift boat campaign would be succesful now. I doubt it. But the Obama candidacy offers the republicans brand new amunition with which to sink the democrats. You think the american people would elect Gore at this point after being giving a second chance at the 2000 debacle. But Obama is a brand new candidate with a brand new set of risk, and because the democratic party has selected the one candidate that could possibly lose this election, they will. By the time the campaign is over, McCain will be sufficient “change” for the american people as Obama will be the radical that was passed on. The people that havent voted yet, but that will vote in the general election will be less educated and have paid less attention the campaign thus far. You think they wont be scared by Rev Wright, and Bill Ayers, when swift boat, which wasnt even true, scared them.
Finally Hillary Clinton has actually held back substantially against Obama. She has never actually made an explicit case that he is unqualified to be president. She has never actually made the case that his associations are unbecoming of an american high level public official. She didnt break the Rezko story, or Rev Wright, or Ayers, she had to wait until the conservative media brought these issues to the table. I think its safe to assume that the Clintons research team knew of these stories well before Iowa but had to sit on them because bring them out was politically untenable. Hillary has never made the explicit case that “birds of a feather flock together”.
HRC was won the popular vote by some four hundred eighty thousand votes since early march when Rev Wright was mentioned for the first time in nationally reported debate. She has done this against a far better financed opponent whose insurmountable delegate lead had already been established by then. This is not attributable to the strength of HRC – Bosnia gate- but to weakness of Obama, post Wright.
Cry me a river!
Hillary has made herself toxic and proven beyond doubt the she is a moral midget and habitual liar.
..by nominating a candidate known to be disliked by the nations swing voters,
What’s your source for this nugget of wisdom? Obama leads every demographic except white women over 50.
Other commenters have pointed out more of your nonsense. No need for me to repeat.
You need to give me a citation here. The source I offer are the exit polls that say that a large percentage of voters in Pennsylvania, Ohio, West Virginia, and Kentucky do not intend to vote for your candidate.
Lets see how objective you can be. What political operative has dominated the political scene during the last 8 years and has no dog in the Obama – Clinton race. That would be Karl Rove who thinks HRC would be a stronger general election candidate. Lets exchange numbers so that we can talk after Obama gets chewed up by the republicans.
What political operative has dominated the political scene during the last 8 years and has no dog in the Obama..
Guess I should say thanks, I needed a good laugh.
I still got no answer to my initial query – source for your statement that swing voters are known to dislike Obama. The exit poll respondees that say they do not intend to vote Obama are either racist or willing to go against their own interest because a better candidate trounced their queen. They are not ‘swing voters’; they are ‘democrats who are simply not true to democratic values. Independent voters go Obama with a large margin.
The quote above tells me you’re either delusional, or not prepared for an honest debate. A waste of time.
Ok so are the people that just voted in West Virginia and Kentucky democrats or not?
Well, I don’t know. Are the people who voted in Wisconsin Democrats or not? Why does Kentucky matter but Wisconsin not?
Well they both matter. I suspect that if the election were held now the Wisconsin results would be closer, although I cant prove that. I also suspect that the West Virgina and Kentucky primaries would have been closer – in Obamas favor – prior to Mar 18th but I cant prove that either. Your point that Obamas performance among blue collar democrats in West Viginia and Kentucky cannot be taken as a full measurement of his appeal among those voters since he performed relatively well with those voters in Wisconsin is well taken. My next question to you is why has the prohibitive favorite for the democratic nomination been unable to garner a respectable percentage of the white blue collar – a swing vote in previous elections – vote in any state since Tim Russert first mentioned Rev Wright in a nationally televised debate in early march.
Still no answer…
Are you sure you didn’t sign up here? You seem to strive to obtain McCain ‘action points’.
Wow, I’m tempted to sign up and post poorly on repo blogs in the name of McCain…. Nah, that’s too much like a Limbaugh strategy. Man, it’s tempting though.
I agree with Atrios, for this reason:
This incident didn’t reveal anything about Senator Clinton that we didn’t already know.
hysterical analysis of this Clinton statement, O leftiness shmoon.
ABC News
Wake the fuck up.
If the Right Reverend Al Sharpton…hands down the most opportunistic politician in America…sees how lame this meme is, where the fuck are YOU coming from?
Lissen up…if the word gaffe is used, it’s a media “ARRRGHING” , nothing more.
Gaffes are for fish.
Sorry, Booman.
You and all of your little schoolfishies are in ClompClompClompville of this one.
Please.
Wise up.
AG