I expected to feel self-righteous, maybe even a little snide. Instead I’m exhausted, drained, edgy and slightly nauseated.
Shortly before the 2004 election, I got into a huge fight with a friend of mine. We’d been drinking and started talking politics. It got ugly fast. I assumed that as a college-educated, well-traveled, art-loving, fun-loving individual, she would be fairly liberal. I found that she was not liberal at all. She was ultra-conservative. Ultra. She told me I had no right to live in America since I hated it so much. She admitted that she could not believe certain facts (yes, facts) because she would it would be too devastating to her sense of what the United States is if she did.
Needless to say our relationship suffered. I was sad and angry and confused. This past summer I reached out to her. I felt I had to learn how to hear what she said. I had to reconnect with the goodness that I knew she possessed. (In many ways she is the most selfless person I know. Caring for her mother-in-law who had Alzheimers disease in her home. Making lunch on a daily basis for a handicapped woman who lives down the street, etc.) She did not fit the stereotype of the redneck, uneducated, wingnut, nor of the fat cat corporatist who expected the government to provide her wealth while exploiting the poor. We had dinner together. We both behaved well. We took a baby step toward healing the rift between us.
Knowing that she and her husband loved the Southwest, I invited them to visit us if they ever were in Santa Fe. To my surprise, she took me up on the offer and she and her husband spent the last 48 hours in my home. I swore to myself that I would be on my best behavior; that I would try to listen to her; that I would be respectful; that I would try not to be defensive. She was a guest in my home. Moreover, her own mother had died about ten days ago, and I knew she was in a fragile state.
The past two days were instructive, humbling and exhausting. We did our best to tiptoe around the landmines, but politics came up despite our best efforts. During dinner she commented that although she and her husband scarcely watch TV anymore, they had seen a great program on ABC about 9/11. I choked down my mouthful of food and my horrified retort, and asked as neutrally as I could if she knew that there were some factual problems with the program. She said she knew it was a drama but that it was based on “The /11 Report.” I gently asked if she knew that some members of the 9/11 committee had objected to its contents and that and FBI script consultant had quit because of his concerns about its veracity. “No, she replied, I wasn’t aware of that.” My husband changed the subject and that was that.
My friend and her husband brought up a few political races in my previous home state of Illinois. I was quiet to hear what they would say. Rob said he couldn’t stand either candidate for governor so he was going to vote Green as a protest. Maria replied that for the first time in her life she wouldn’t vote at all. We agreed that there were very few politicians we could admire. I let them take a few swipes at Duckworth and Durbin and remained quiet. I learned that neither supports Duckworth’s competitor in IL-06, Peter Roskam (R). By remaining quiet I also learned that both of them spend 20 minutes a day praying for peace.
Over the course of the past two days we had a number of close calls, but when they left this morning we had avoided out and out confrontation.
I’m very confused by the encounter. These people who pray for peace, who actually exert themselves to help people, will probably never vote for Democrats. They are disillusioned with the Republicans, but for reasons I failed to discern they consider Democratic politicians beyond the pale. I didn’t trust my self-control, so I didn’t probe. They are extremely devout Catholics, but still love and have contact with their daughter who is “shacked up” with her boyfriend. They were distraught when their only son joined an ultra-orthodox Catholic religious order.
I don’t understand them. They don’t understand me. Our universes do not seem to be the same. I suspect we have more in common than either of us realize. I don’t know how we personally are going to bridge the gaps that separate us. I don’t know how we progressives are going to bridge the gaps with people like these. Although many of our values are the same, our message is not resonating. We are not trusted. We have a lot of work to do.
We need to work together if we are going to save this country. We need to listen. We need to respect. We need to articulate our views in a way that will not cause people to shut down. It won’t be easy. It is exhausting.
Gee, I should have called you. I was in Sante Fe on Aug 8.
I just love Sante Fe. You are so lucky to live there. We also went to Gallup. That’s one of my favorite stops in the whole Southwest. All those dealers!! Why, you almost feel as if you are in Lebanon again (the dealers all seem to be Lebanese).
We were only there for 2 days. Way too short.
Sorry I missed you.
Glad to know you had a good time in this gorgeous place.
I was just out in Gallup in August. I must have missed you. BTW, nicely done, Kahli. I too must get to Santa Fe again.
We’ll have to have a BT party in the Land of Enchantment!
Sounds like a very stressful couple of days. I can’t imagine having a pair of ultra-conversatives in my houes around election time. My dad merely voted Republican, and it was hell when he visited in October of 2000. He even argued with me when we agreed on stuff. π
I hate to say this, but I’m glad to hear that dyed in the wool Republican voters are so disillusioned they’re voting green or staying home. Good for them. I think they should all take a stand like that this year…
Thanks, but I don’t feel valorous.
I wanted to be open and empathic and I was guarded and defensive. I wanted to find a way to reach them or least understand them and I failed. Nonetheless, I’m glad I tried. If the opportunity presents itself I will keep trying. And I applaud them for spending time with me. They know I’m a liberal. It is hard for them. Perhaps on some conservative blog the flip side of this diary has been written.
If I’m being presumptuous, please forgive me. Obviously,I don’t know any of the personalities involved in your 48 hour challenge at all, so I may be way off base. However, when I read your account, a few thoughts occur to me. Perhaps it was a confusing time for you, because you are trying to make rational sense out of contradictory behavior from your old friends. I don’t think you have nearly as much in common with them as you might wish to. The fact that the progressives in our country do not control the information that is put out daily by the MSM for the masses to digest is our biggest hurdle to overcome. That and denial. (which is a very powerful force!)
As I have said many times before: OR, I could be very, very wrong. BTW,you would get an A+ for patience and tact from this old teacher, and you are right about needing to work together to solve “our” problems. How we are going to get it done escapes me.
Perhaps you are right that I wish we had more in common than we do. Yes, we both love art. Yes, we both love travel. But there are deeper connections too: love of family, love of country, a commitment to personal morality as we understand it, a sense of gratitude for all we have in our lives. It seems like this should be a basis for constructive problem solving. Somehow it is not.
Yes, I do find their behavior contradictory. They probably find mine the same. I don’t care who sleeps with whom. I think a woman’s reproductive decisions are hers to make. I don’t think trickle down economics have a snowball’s chance in hell of working. Yet, they know that spiritual issues are an important part of my life.
It is so difficult to work from the commonalities when our approaches are so different.
“Somehow it is not…” It seems that “the country” has been/is being programmed into viewing political discourse as though it was an athletic event. This means we create winners and losers; big maps are displayed with contrasting colors representing who is which. “Talk” shows that are nothing more than partisan propaganda saturate the networks. Scapegoating becomes something akin to rooting against the visiting team. The emphasis seems to be about focusing on wedge issues because that is what increases the ratings and increases ad revenues as well as “being good for the economy”. In the short run we lose our ability to be honest with each other and ourselves. In the long run, minor problems are left unsolved and become huge problems. In the end, even the winners lose.
Interesting post. It’s interesting to see the vivid contrast between this couple’s manifest goodness (extending themselves to help strangers and the disabled, praying for peace) and their lockstep Republicanism.
This couple reminds me of my family in Missouri, likewise Catholics, likewise lockstep Fox News zombies.
I’m a religious Catholic myself. I just wrote, and deleted, a bunch of long sentences about hope for making contact with them by talking about seamless support for life–anti-abortion, anti-poverty, anti-war, anti-death penalthy, etc.
The truth is, I have no idea how to get through to them.
My mom is a devout catholic, but somehow very liberal.
I see priests and nuns in the forefront of labor issues and immigration issues. Many devout Catholics support civil rights for many groups of people, exculding others like gays and women who want to manage their own reproductive decisions.
You differ on the latter point and yet we coexist in a progressive community. (Not that we won’t knock heads about the issue at times.)
But I don’t know how to reach people like my friends and your family in such a way that we can work creatively and constructively on issues that are important to us all.
I guess that is what is frustrating me. The great good that progressives and conservatives could do in common gets sidetracked in our distrust of each other because we can’t agree on everything.
Incidentally, I have the misfortune to be both pro-life and pro-choice, and I have an incredibly long explanation about why I think that’s the only sensible position. This does nothing except raise my own hypertension to dangerous levels while alienating about 99.5 percent of the population. Sigh. I should move to France.
Nah, we need you here. (Though in all honesty I have been perusing Italian real estate sites.)
for sharing your experience with us Kahli. There is so much polarization everywhere, including the pews of the Catholic Church. I attend Mass regularly and help out with my parish but it’s probably the most “liberal” parish in the diocese. The preaching, the action, the people are from the old strain of the Church that focused on social justice above anything else. I didn’t realize how different it was until I went to another parish for Mass and heard all about the divisive issues like abortion, stem-cell research and gay marriage being blasted from the pulpit. The constant barrage of messaging has its effect and it is not confined to churches.
Think about why we’re so outraged at the “right” – we spend most of our time reading about all their wrongdoing, (probably) don’t watch Fox News, and seek out like-minded individuals. It’s a reinforcement tactic which makes us more convinced of our correctness. The same thing happens on the right. While I would argue that we’re on the correct side of issues, it takes alot of introspection and analysis to back up why we may feel strongly about an issue.
I’m rambling and it’s late in my workday but I’ll see if I can plunge out a few more thoughts from the drainhole that used to be my brain prior to a hard couple of weeks. paz
You are so right. And that is why as troubling as the last few days were, I’m glad that both they and I made the effort to coexist respectfully. I also discovered that by keeping my own mouth shut at times I could learn things that might help in future interactions.
is, I assume, your mutual desire for peace. Your friend may choose to pray for it 20 minutes a day. You may choose to vote for it, selecting candidates who promise timely troop withdrawls in Afghanistan and Iraq and who promise no preemptive strikes on nations who pose no imminent threat. I’ll bet she can agree to that, too.
Yes, we both desire peace. But Bush’s premeptive war, while distressing to her, was something she was willing to accept.
Perhaps it was out of fear of the “terrorists” perhaps it was because she felt the republicans would be stronger on “moral” issues. From my point of view there could be few things less moral than a preemptive war, but she was willing to accept it because other issues had more moral weight for her.
I don’t understand praying for peace and supporting warmongers. She doesn’t understand my considering myself a moral person yet supporting gay marriage.
Every one has to follow her/his own moral path. I just hope we can figure out a way to respect that and still work together enough to save this country and to better the existence of people everywhere.
1500 species of animals engage in homsexual behavior on interim and/or life-long levels. It’s a biological phenomenon, not a moral question.
When making difficult choices between two painful or distasteful alternatives, the rule is to measure the relative ‘badness’ of one agaist the other and prioritize them. Which is a greater threat to human happiness and the chance for people to lead productive lives? War or a consensual sex act between adults?
What does you friend want more from her religion — an opportunity to live in the imitation of Christ, or the opportunity to judge others?
Yes, you are right, of course. I guess it would have been better to say that many people “consider” it to me a moral issue. My bad.
to be. not to me. My typing gets even worse after I’ve had a drink.
You have hit the nail on the head. I know that war is far worse. No question. Period. She made a different decision. Why would she do that? As I said, on many levels she is a really good person. Probably lots more than I am. So how does a good person make such a decision. That is where I am stumped and frustrated.
Are there words I can say or actions that I can take to reach people like her. Do we need to concentrate on the areas on which we can agree first and after trust and cooperation has been established can we work on other issues. Do I just throw up my hands and say “You are so effed up that I can’t even deal with you?” The latter would be so much easier.
I’d like to offer something from my own experience. You might be aware that I made a long difficult journey out of the right wing fundamentalism in which I was raised. My situation was much more severe than your friends, but maybe still instructive.
What I learned is that the denial that is often a part of all this kind of thinking comes from insecurity. Belief systems are then used as a way to find a safe and secure place to be in the world. As I was emerging from all of this, a very wise person said the following to me: “What you need is formation not information, and that comes through relationship and dialogue.” Wiser words were never spoken to me. This person’s offer to engage with me in relationship and dialogue was the beginning of my healing.
Thanks, NL
Maybe your friend hasn’t made a decision at all but is just spouting received belief, stuff she parrots verbally and mentally in her own mind without questioning or testing it against her own thinking.
Now, we all know that real thinking is the hardest task — worse than physical labor. But Socrates gave us a brilliant methodology to start people thinking for themselves. One asks questions. One leads people to examine an issue by following answers to those questions with a consideration of as many consequences to their position as one can think of. One casts a spotlight into the dark corners of a closed mind by asking the person to compare and contrast the impact of one belief compared to another.
You might ask her how she feels about stem cell research, pointing out the advances in the technique; confirming that in the case of embryos literally thousands are just thrown out; asking is it moral to turn away from the opportunity to help; suggesting that there might be circumstances when she could herself in the position of someone who would benefit from knowledge and treatments deriving from stem cell research; even pointing out the economic disadvantages to US technology industries, and the threat to making America’s world-leading science second rate, since other countries will not prohibit it.
This kind of engaged, non-hostile discussion, carried out in the form of questioning and as absent of judgmentalism as you can make it, forces people to examine their own positions. They may appear not to have changed their minds during the encounter. But I guarantee, that it remains a life-changing experience that they can not walk away from because the seeds of questioning have been planted — as long as the person engaging them is non-confrontational.
No one will tolerate being backed into a corner by aggressive argument against a misguided belief that they hold. Everyone can be lead to enlightenment when they believe they have arrived on their own.
Wish I had read this before my enocounter!
She admitted that she could not believe certain facts (yes, facts) because it would be too devastating to her sense of what the United States is if she did.
I think this statement about where she is coming from is an amazing piece of honesty from her and maybe the basis of your frustration. I would guess that one of the reasons you are so tired is that you just spent 48 hours trying to live with someone who is immersed in denial – that is exhausting!!
I think what you did in trying to hear is both admirable and the most productive response. Eventually, it might help her be able to talk about the conflict this denial creates for her. But don’t beat yourself up too much in trying to understand her positions. Its clear to me that underneath it all – they don’t even make sense to her and that’s a pretty difficult thing to be able to admit.
Wow. I think you may be right. That helps a lot.
I agree with NLinStPaul. This is quite an acknowledgment of position:
“She admitted that she could not believe certain facts (yes, facts) because she would it would be too devastating to her sense of what the United States is if she did.”
I can empathize with this. I have been reading the news and people’s diaries for a while now. What has begun happening is that I am observing my life throughout my day in a different way, wondering what is the cost of this or that in terms of other people’s lives and the planet? Is there a different way I could live so the devastation and suffering is less? Well yeah. But…but… I don’t want to change how I live.
As to your friend’s generous nature and service to others (which I admire very much), a quote comes to mind, though I cannot recall the source and must paraphrase:
“When I gave the poor food, they called me a saint. When I asked why the poor had no food, they called me a communist.”
I would really be curious as to how your friend would answer the question, “What would an ideal world be like?”
Oh, maybe send your friend the Paul Wellstone book. π
Anyway, thanks for sharing your experience and asking your questions.
Kahli,
I can well imagine that the time with your visitors was a huge emotional strain. However, I think you did the right thing by not confronting them. I don’t believe that it is effective or worthwhile to directly challenge people on the central issues that divide you from them. Few people who differ so greatly on the “wedge” issues of the day will be changed by confrontation, however gentle.
I think it is more effective to be restrained and considerate as you were – and also to search for areas of common agreement, which I suspect are there. You might want to read a series of comments about the Catholic doctrine of the “Seamless Garment” and forming alliances with people that you do not agree with on some issues, in order to achieve a goal in areas that you do both see alike. Here is a portion of one of those commentaries, written in Social Policy by Greg Galluzzo:
Organizing: With Whom? For What?
Thanks, Kidspeak.
There is a lot of common sense in that quote.
Kahli,
you did the best thing you could’ve done, under the circumstances. Your willingness to listen has the best potential for reaching any common ground. I don’t believe that you can influence their thinking at all when they’ve basically boiled their position down to refusing to challenge their own beliefs because it would shatter their vision of what America is or stands for. It seems to me that someone like that just needs to be left to find out for themselves, or not.
ps
I’ve also been scanning Italian real estate sites. I think I could disappear into Tuscany without a second thought :o)
There is one reason and one reason only why many good people will not vote Democratic despite the fact that Republicans exploit and abuse their faith for political purposes. That word is abortion.
It’s sad but true. Democrats are seen as evil by fundies and conservative catholics based solely on the abortion issue. They have fallen for the conservative propaganda hook line and sinker.
Steven, perhaps that may a little bit of an oversimplification, but it is not far off.
I think that Dr. David Gill who is running in Illinois 15 talks about the issue as well as any Democrat I have ever heard.
with a conservative friend of my daughter’s. I’ve known he was conservative but usually we are able to find points of agreement. But the other day I got to talking about the torture. “Oh,” he says, “There isn’t any real torture, it is just a set up!”
I really really believe we have to get some real news out to people. We get news because we look for it, but what about those who are not even knowing there is other news out there? (Other than Jon Benet’s killer NOT!)
You are so right about the news. I was floored that my friends had heard nothing about the controversy about the 9/11 program.
I thought it had been covered so much that, combined with ABC’s “disclaimer,” people wouldn’t take it too seriously. Just goes to show I have my own head in the sand.
Well done Kahli.
I have a little different point of view about this situation, which seems to me to go far beyond politics. . .not too surprising coming from me, eh?
There are about 20-30% of the beings on this planet that can only feel secure or safe if someone else is telling them what to do or think. Whether it is in religion, politics or some other organization, they will find those very willing to tell them what is right, what is wrong, and how they should live their lives. It has been baffling to me all my life why that is so. The over-simplified answer I have come to is that to do other than follow requires one to take responsibility for their own life and everything in it. It also requires introspection and a willingness to consciously improve ones self to become a better version of self along the way. The responsibility and the introspection are not particularly easy things to accomplish, although I feel we make it a more difficult task than it need be.
If one is willing to “get there” there is a place of understanding that everyone is just wherever it is they are along the “growth spectrum” of life experiences. It just is. If one is further willing to love and respect others, regardless of how we may find disagreement and dissatisfaction with their behavior and beliefs, then we have come to a place of understanding. It looks as though you are pretty well there, my dear.
As long as we continue to understand what we can of others around us and to allow them their place along their journey yet work to share a concept of love and acceptance without judgment, we are embodying a higher consciousness. Are we always successful at this? No, we have our moments of not taking the high road, but that is no reason not to keep working at our goal of becoming the best version of self we are able.
People don’t generally learn so much from our words as they do from our actions.
The next difficult thing is understanding that some people just want and need to be followers. If we can let go of that without the need to “put it down” or without blaming ourselves for not being better able to “convince them” otherwise, then we too can find a type of peace to exist in.
I get such a chuckle out of the “fear of homosexuals.” In my 66 years here, I have never lost a friend, even the most homophobic of friends over such a thing. When someone gets to know you, and know you well, and care for you, no matter how shocking the revelation is to them that I am gay, they have always come around and decided that “real people” are homosexual and are not evil nor disgusting. It is easy for most to fear or “hate” THEM. . .whoever the them may be because they are a faceless unknown quantity whom they have no investment in. It is much more difficult when it is that person that you know and enjoy and have much in common with.
Just my observations from some starry places with no more weight or importance than any other.
You have done very well. Keep it up. Don’t be hard on yourself. Rest, relax and breathe deeply. As long as you continue to be the YOU that I see, all is well with the universe.
Big hugs and loves
Shirl
Wisdom from the stars brought tears to my eyes.
Thanks.
Namaste.