The way I see it, Mitt Romney’s Mormon faith shouldn’t interfere with his ability to do the duties of a president anymore than Harry Reid’s Mormon faith interferes with his ability to serve as Majority Leader of the U.S. Senate. There are plenty of reasons to believe that Mr. Romney would be a terrible president, but his faith doesn’t concern me and I don’t think it should be an issue in the campaign. But the same is true of President Obama’s faith. Obviously, both the Church of Latter Day Saints and the traditional urban black church have elements that are far outside the experience of the majority of Americans, and both candidates can be effectively attacked for their religious associations. That is going to happen on blogs and in restaurants and bars and office break rooms. But the campaigns and their party organizations should leave the issue alone. The Democratic Party shouldn’t be the anti-Mormon party and the Republicans shouldn’t be the anti-black church party. So, that’s my answer to Jason Horowitz’s question: “Should Romney’s Mormon faith be fair game?”
Yet, I don’t like this:
Mitt Romney’s presidential campaign has developed a simple method to determine whether coverage of the candidate’s Mormonism has crossed a line.
“Our test to see if a similar story would be written about others’ religion is to substitute ‘Jew’ or ‘Jewish,’ ” Romney campaign spokeswoman Andrea Saul wrote in objection to a Washington Post article last fall about the candidate’s role as a church leader in Boston.
If they picked a different religion for comparison like, say, Buddhism or Catholicism, I probably wouldn’t be as offended. But when you invoke Judaism, you automatically evoke the Holocaust, and I think that is too aggressive. I understand that the Mormons have experienced some very thorough, and violent, persecution, but this method of fighting back against the press doesn’t seem to be fair play to me.
First, it inappropriately does what we call in philosophy “begging the question.” What question is that, you ask? Well, the question is whether Mormonism is a religion or a cult. When we agree not to make Mormonism an issue, we’re agreeing not to engage in theological examinations. But when the Romney campaign insists, for example, that there’s no difference between Moses receiving the Ten Commandments and Joseph Smith digging up the golden plates, they’re forcing us to concede the point or be accused of religious bigotry. When we agree out of politeness and a sense of respect for private beliefs not to question to veracity of the central story of Mormonism, we should not have that story’s accuracy thrust in our face. Horowitz paraphrases Michael Purdy, media relations director for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, as saying, “as a relatively young religion, Mormonism does not enjoy the authenticating quality of antiquity. Because it came of age in a modern time, its theology and saintly visitations can strike people as stranger than those of older religions shrouded by centuries.” And here is Romney spokeswoman Andrea Saul:
“Would you write this sentence in describing the Jewish faith?” Saul asked in a November e-mail, adding: “ ‘Jews believe their prophet Moses was delivered tablets on a mountain top directly from G-d after he appeared to him in a burning bush.’ Of course not, yet you reference a similar story in Mormonism.”
Both Purdy and Saul raise valid points, but they are points that they expect us not to discuss. What they’re saying is really an invitation to start a theological discussion, not a rationale for shutting down a theological discussion. When they make a straightforward comparison between the prophetic age of Judiasm and Christianity and 19th-Century America, they’re forcing us to question whether the story of Moses is historically accurate. Did angels really visit Mary? When did the prophetic age end, and why? How literally do Jews take the story of Moses? What’s the Christian equivalent of a Mormon in terms of Holy Book literalism?
Second, once they open this door, we have to consider Romney’s rather exalted position within his Church. If he were a Catholic, he’d be considered a cardinal or bishop. At least, he has served that role for a time. He isn’t just some guy who was raised in the faith and never really questioned it.
As for Romney, church officials said it is up to the candidate how much he divulges about his beliefs and his role within the church. “But it is a matter of public record that he served as a Mormon bishop and a stake president, which is somewhat a larger responsibility,” said Michael Otterson, the church’s head of worldwide public affairs. “It is up to him to decide if he wants to talk about that.”
When Romney was a student at BYU, some colleges refused to compete athletically against the school because of their ban on blacks in the priesthood. Romney, apparently, took the side of the church hierarchy. He’s since said he is relieved that the ban was reversed, but there are many potential avenues of attack if the Romney campaign wants to open up that can of worms.
Finally, the press has a difficult task. To see how difficult, all you have to do is read Horowitz’s piece. He’s obviously walking on eggshells. They’re being very aggressively asked to treat Mormonism as a religion as established and uncontroversial as Judaism, and any questioning of the religion is being overtly compared to the kind of anti-Semitism that led to the Holocaust. But Mormonism is controversial.. There are voters out there who won’t vote for Romney because he’s a Mormon, just as there are voters out there who won’t vote for Obama because of Jeremiah Wright. It’s a story. The press will be criticized no matter how they choose to deal with it. But they shouldn’t allow themselves to be bullied.
The only reason I would not write that sentence about Judaism is that there were a lot of event between G-d appearing to Moses in a burning bush and his giving the Torah to Moses. At the very least most people would mention the whole freed the people from slavery bit in there.
I fail to the antisemitism in the statement, the events on Moses on Mt. Sinai are central to the Jewish faith and it would be difficult to have a meaningful conversation about it without mentioning them.
I think her point is that reporters don’t feel the need to point out some of hard to believe stuff that is central to Judaism when discussing a Jewish politician. And there is a basic similarity between Moses receiving the tablets and Smith unearthing the tablets. If we can believe one, why not the other? If the Angel Gabriel could appear to Mary, why couldn’t the Angel Moroni appear to Smith?
Of course, Jews and Christians have tried to explain why God or angels used to communicate directly with prophets in the past and why that no longer seems to be the case, but the Romney campaign doesn’t want us to have that conversation. What they’re saying is that if it happened in 1300 BCE or 4 BCE, why couldn’t it happen in 1823 CE? To question that in the 19th Century but not in the ancient past is simple bigotry.
But that sidesteps a whole other topic, which is to what degree to Christians and Jews believe in the literal truth of these stories about angels and prophets, and to have degree is it important?
I might not bat at an eye at an observant Jew who is running for office, but I might become a little worried if they wanted to bring Leviticus into the common law. If someone is taking the Holy Books too literally, that can be a problem. So, how does Romney view the story about Smith? Does he believe it’s true, word for word? I think he probably does. And that doesn’t make him the religious equivalent of Mel Brooks, does it? It makes him the religious equivalent of the ultra orthodox.
And if a Haredi Jew were a candidate for the presidency, I think it would be very controversial, don’t you?
“Our test to see if a similar story would be written about others’ religion is to substitute `Jew’ or `Jewish,’ ”
a more honest test would be: substitute “Muslim” or “Atheist”. The answer is obvious: damn right the story would be written. Republicans took the lead in making religion part of the story and they can’t now choose to have it the other way.
Harry Reid was never in the LEADERSHIP OF THE MORMON CHURCH.
and, YES, I believe his Mormonism, AND HIS LEADERSHIP POSITION IN SAID CHURCH and what he did while in leadership SHOULD BE AN ISSUE.
of course, I’m quite clear that Willard’s Mormonism is but one of the reasons why I would never vote for him as a Black person.
To me, the bottom lines are these:
Would the demands of the religion interfere with his/her ability to do the job or make an independent judgement? It’s one thing to believe whatever, but another if the demand is to put doctrine into law that everybody has to follow member or not. It’s one thing to have a church head, another if that head demands that the President follows whatever doctrinal whim that leader demands, or interferes with Presidential decisions.
.
"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."
Since religions are not all the same whatever objections there may be to a candidate of religion A on account of his religion may not apply at all to another candidate of religion B.
But there certainly can be objections to a candidate based precisely on his religious beliefs and if there are it is not only “fair game” or “in bounds” to say so but a sabotage of democracy not to say so.
As for plates in a rain barrel vs. carved stone tablets and burning bushes, the point is well taken that the one story is as silly as the other and every bit as foundational to the religions in question.
But the Moses story is not believed only by Jews.
It is common to all orthodox Protestants and fundamentalists, at least, insist on its literal truth.
Too, it is believed by Catholics and, speaking of them, the Church insists miracles such as apparitions of the Virgin Mary happen quite as a matter of course and have continued right into our own time, along with many other sorts of miracles.
And as for something perhaps a bit more alarming, it is believed by many American Protestants that the Rapture will come if only they can arrange the right kind of war in the Middle East.
If I for one moment thought it probable that a candidate for president believed that I would certainly vote against him on account of his having that very religious belief.
And if I found out the press had covered it up because of some incredibly stupid political dogma of what is or is not “fair game” I would be furious at yet another proof mankind is too stupid to survive.
It’s quite true there are people who will vote against Romney because he’s not a Christian, or he’s not to them an acceptable kind of Christian, much as there are many people who would not vote for a Jew.
That is, they will vote against him because they object to his religion.
And some people will vote against Obama because his close past association with Rev. Wright causes them to suspect he hates white people.
But that is not a case of voting against him because of an objection to his religion, unless the hatred of white people is actually integral to his religion and not a personal spin on it.
As it is, for example, integral and even essential to Minister Farrakhan’s religion.
As for Mitt R in particular, I for one had no idea his position in the Mormon Church was analogous to that of a bishop and I wish the press had done a better job making that clear to everyone.
That he is such a high official makes it all the more likely he is committed to the characteristic and official views of his church as well as their bearing on politics.
And that makes it very much “fair game” and even a duty for the press to tell us what those views are and how they bear, if they do, on politics.
I will be the first to admit that if Bishop Wuerl was running I would be very much opposed to him exactly because of the political bearing of so many of his religious beliefs.
And this is just baloney.
“Would you write this sentence in describing the Jewish faith?” Saul asked in a November e-mail, adding: “ `Jews believe their prophet Moses was delivered tablets on a mountain top directly from G-d after he appeared to him in a burning bush.’ Of course not, yet you reference a similar story in Mormonism.”
“Of course not”?
Au contraire, why the hell not?
And, anyway, is there anyone who does not know that not only the Jews but all Christians appeal to that story?
If the Romney people are trying that hard to impose a gag rule on absolutely basic information about his religion they can go to hell.
And they can very reasonably be asked what they are trying to hide.
Let them deal with the embarrassment of that question as they wish.
And if you ask me their repeatedly turning the issue back onto the Jews and, apparently, nobody else is, if not anti-Semitic in itself, at least an exploitation of anti-Semitism and fears thereof to intimidate the press.
By the way, as to the historic persecution of the Mormons in the US, it was inspired by their insistence from the beginning on practicing polygamy in open defiance of the laws of every state they were driven from.
Much as many of them insist on polygamy to this day, to the fascination of Big Love viewers all over the country.
Unless he has already made it clear he opposes polygamy it would be perfectly fair to ask his views and, according to him, the view of his church – just as one could with perfect legitimacy ask a bishop what is the view of his church on that or any question.
As for Bill Maher, he is a notorious mocker who has spared no religion and refuses to “play nice” with regard to that topic, at all.
Better get used to it.
He’s especially brutal on Islam, you know.
In common parlance, a cult is a belief-system – whether religious or secular – with an organized following that the speaker finds especially worthy of mockery or especially dangerous is some way.
Take that up with Bill, too, if you want.
Personally I’d have to defend Mormonism on the polygamy issue. I think the laws against it were majority-based, bigotry-fueled brutishness of a kind that the Constitution was supposed to protect us from. There is no justification for it as long as no proven harm can be presented. Which is where it gets tricky, because it seems women had little or no choice in accepting the rule by lordly men.
Other than that, I find Mormonism slightly more ridiculous than even the rest of the mythology being promoted as history by cults large and small around the world.
I can’t believe this attempt at equating Jews with Mormonism is not laughed off the stage from the first sentence. The scummy attempt to bring the emotions of the Holocaust to Mormon whining is beyond disgusting. Why? Obvious answer: the persecution and antisemitism directed against the Jews had nothing to do with their religion. Auschwitz and Treblinka were as voracious for atheist and converted Christian Jews as they were for Rabbis. The sorry history of antisemitism is about a false notion of “race”, not religion. Therefore this shameful Mormon attempt to hitch a free ride on the centuries of Jewish tragedy amounts to flimflam of the highest order.
If the sentence in question read “The Jewish faith believes their prophet Moses was delivered tablets on a mountain top directly from G-d after he appeared to him in a burning bush”, I don’t see the least thing wrong with it. What is the alternative — to just report it as if it really happened beyond any doubt?
The tone of this whole (not) “tricky subject” assumes that we are somehow obligated to treat every fantastic religious myth, ancient or new, as credible. I don’t think we have to treat it any way at all, as long as no one gets aggressive about proselytizing it (which is the Mormons’ chief claim to fame). When it does enter the public sphere it has no more claim to immunity from examination and criticism than any other belief — and that would apply to Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, Billy Graham, The Pope, or the Dalai Lama if they’d somehow had a shot at high political office.
For those who think mystical claims of holiness or specialness deserve automatic reverence, I can put you in touch with a whole bunch of channelers, astrologers, palm readers, faith healers, and faith-based capitalists who would love to meet you and your wallet.
100 % correct. The Holocaust card has been played and played and played. It is now retired.
I would totally write that. I’d probably leave out the phrase “their prophet” because I’d assume a general readership would recognize who Moses was, but not Joseph Smith. Then again, I probably wouldn’t feel the need to explain what Judaism was to a general audience, while Mormonism is less well-known.
I don’t get why that line is gotcha material. Am I just an insensitive jerk, or what?
The thing that you have to remember is that whetever you may think of the Mormon faith as a belief system, the Mormon Church is not only a faith, but an institution. A very powerful institution that requires no “conspiracy theory” belief to recognize, as it is highly visible, centralized and structured. It also has huge and tangible economic interests, and although Mormons are found across the political spectrum, they are on the whole one of the most right-wing demographics in the country.
Ten Facts About Mormon History and Theology that You Should Know before Shooting Off Your Mouth.
I stand corrected.
But you deserve no apology.
I see nothing about Judaism which is special. The Holocaust happened 70 years ago. It’s time to treat the Jewish religion like all others. They get no special treatment due to an event of 70 years ago. You do not see the gays saying “Hitler sent us to the camps, so you should treat us better.” Gypsies, Roumanians, and all sorts of others were similarly sent to the camps. Those who opposed Hitler were sent to camps. Communists, liberals, socialist, atheists, and so forth were all sent to the camps.
Also christian clergy who opposed Nazism, nazis themselves (read about the “Night of the long knives”), and anyone who ran afoul of the personal vendettas of Goebbels, Hitler, Goring, Hess, etc.
In another thread, I discussed how my relatives who are of a Germanic background also ended up in concentration camps. After WWII, there were camps run by the Yugoslavs, who put germanic residents in those camps, starved them, took their property, and otherwise treated them as subhumans in the same way that the Germans treated others. In 1960, I had 3rd cousins from S. Hungary and N Serbia who were in DP camps. The Germanic persons (collectively referred to as the “Donau-Schwabben” ethnic group) in S Hungary-W Roumania-N Serbia were either sent to camps, sent back to Germany, or otherwise very badly treated. I am certainly aware that many of these people were collaborators with the Nazis during the war. Nonetheless, the camps on one side were followed by concentration camps on the other.
We should remember the past, but not have all of our actions determined by so-called “collective guilt”, which does not exist. Those responsible for the camps were either tried at Nuremburg or forcibly returned to Israel and tried there. Those who ran and were responsible for the camps are almost all dead now, anyway, guilty or not.
You wrote: “Those responsible for the camps were either tried at Nuremburg [sic] or forcibly returned to Israel and tried there.” I’m not sure what you mean by “forcibly returned.” Which of those who were “responsible for the camps” originated in Israel?
As far as I’m concerned religion shouldn’t be discussed. Most are based on the belief of doing something positive for people and that’s certainly fine by me. Whether or not the religion was started by a business man or a wanderer makes no difference to me. But when they start in recruiting me then I take offense. I don’t care if they ever go church or ever say one prayer or not. Separation of church and state is a not just a passing thought it is a necessity.
I find it more than a bit ironic that someone defending Mormonism would make a comparison to Judaism, especially as the Mormon church continues to baptize dead Jews, including those, such as Anne Frank, that died at the hands of the Nazis.
And it remains to be seen if anyone will make an issue of the Mormon Church’s posthumous baptism in 2008 of Stanley Ann Dunham – the President’s mother.
.
"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."