When Israel attacks there are consequences (warning: graphic pictures).
This isn’t an even fight.
At least 104 people, all but four of them civilians, have been killed in the five-day assault, which has choked Lebanon’s economy and forced tourists and foreigners to flee.
Four Israelis, including a five-year-old child, have been killed and 300 wounded by about 700 rockets fired since Wednesday at more than 20 towns.
Those are the numbers, 104-4, with Lebanon’s economy in ruins and much of their vital infrastructure destroyed. I think Israel has made their point. It is time for them to call off their dogs. There is no good reason for them to be bombing northern areas and blowing up lighthouses. If they need to stop rocket attacks in the south then they should focus their energy there.
They have overreacted and there have no coherent strategic vision that I can see in undermining the Lebanese government.
Tell it to the scumbag in the oval office. He’s licking his bloody chops right now. Fair fight? WTF is that? This is just the beginning. Fuck Bush and Fuck the Israelis.
In fact, Fuck the U.S. for backing this atrocity.
I wonder if anyone saw Dan Bartlett interviewed on CNN today? He said that the administration’s position was that Israel should show restraint. He then went on to say that we didn’t want to see the Lebanese government destabilized.
He just seemed so callous to the death and destruction – but wanting to draw the line at not destabilizing the government.
Sociopaths and their enablers are incapable of empathy. Bartlett is a pig.
Even more distrubing is the fact that the administration and its supporters see what is going on right now as Israel restraining itself.
Quite frustrating.
Muslims were up in arms over a few cartoons (and I won’t belittle the fact) but I would think this occasion deserves similar protest
He just seemed so callous to the death and destruction – but wanting to draw the line at not destabilizing the government.
So he did better than that MONUMENTAL asshole Ed Schultz whose response on Friday to a reminder that civilians were dying in droves was something along the lines of, ‘that’s the reality of war’ and who is of the opinion that we must be pro-Israel if we’re true Americans. I don’t care that Ed Schultz is on the radio but am deeply, deeply offended that he calls himself a ‘progressive’ or a Democrat. The man’s an idiot and a Republican.
All accounts show infrastructure demolished in a mirror image of Baghdad. The world is watching as the US ally overreaches and there is no double the US will be held accountable, after hearing Bush’s remarks supporting the strikes, alongside of Israel. This is reminding me of Katrina in that this administration’s leadership is callously absent.
They are intentionally absent…for now. Bush is already calling for Syria to intercede, while Syria has put it’s resources at the disposal of Lebanon. Can it be any clearer what is happening here?
As has been pointed out by multiple other commentators on the issue, there is indeed no strategic value in Israel’s current behavior. The destabilization or outright failure of the elected Lebanese government is not in the interests of anyone in the Middle East, or the United States. So much for the ‘Cedar Revolution’. An incensed Arab League has officially declared whatever conceivably remains of the so-called ‘peace process’ “dead”. Note that both the recent attacks on the IDF were indeed ‘acts of war’ in the technical sense: NOT TERRORISM. They were carried out strictly against uniformed forces of another state’s military forces and in no way injured or endangered civilians or other non-combatants. The IDF proved itself in both these instances to be woefully inept, badly prepared and badly commanded: the intention of capturing IDF soldiers has been publicly announced for years, and yet not even elementary patrol precautions appear to have been taken. (IDF commanders’ heads should roll over these instances). Of course, everyone should condemn Hezbollah’s indiscriminate firing of rockets into Israeli civilian areas — those ARE terrorist tactics and are indefensible). But Lebanon itself has never been in control of the far southern reaches of the country as Israel is well aware. Accordingly, the bombing of civilian neighborhoods (“well, there are terrorists there”), civilian infrastructure such as Lebanon’s international airport, roads and bridges which have taken decades of work and MUCH international support and aid to create is nothing short of criminal. As indeed it is specifically designated as such by international law.
Israel’s bombing and destruction of civilian infrastructure in Gaza is equally abhorrent: please explain why bombing the only ‘native’ power-generating plant in Gaza rendering it unusable and likely out of service for more than six months is ‘fighting terrorism’ (especially since now the only outside entity selling and supplying electricity to Gaza is Israel, who will demand to be paid). So much for hospitals and other critical facilities.
Of course our administration and their supporters are outraged over weaponry supposedly used by the Lebanese against the Israelis (the Iranian anti-ship missile). Well, who do you think supplied and/or paid for the aircraft and armamements used by the IDF against the civilian infrastructure in Gaza and Lebanon? We did.
I apologize for the rant. I’m just disgusted.
There IS a strategy here, and I fear very much it’s all about Iran. Israel’s response is so far above and beyond the call of reason that I believe the best explanation is that this is a deliberate provocation, at our government’s request, so we can enjoin Iran directly in a conflict.
The neocon media assets are putting the connection between Iran and the conflict front and center. Bill O’Reilly at Fox News was busy touting this angle yesterday:
A CBS News report had this to say:
Here’s a recent story from Ireland Online drawing the purported connection:
I think most of this is utterly bogus. I think that the people who want war with Iran are fanning the flames here. I think that is the best explanation for Israel’s disproportionate response.
So yes, I want Israel to stop. But I think they did this on our behest. Bush wants a war with Iran, and knows he can’t provoke one directly. So it looks like Bush is letting Israel do the work for him:
So I guess it falls to us to bombard the major news organizations, our Congresspeople and Senators, and yes, the White House, and beg action. Without a public outcry, I fear this will continue until they can ignite a spark that will light a conflict with Iran.
The only reason he could possibly approve is that it brings him one step closer to the war he wants at all costs – that with Iran.
.
No mention of Iranian Revolutionary Guard, but IDF punishes Lebanese Army for support of Hezbollah in missile attack.
Israel expanded its reach to northern Lebanon, conducting air strikes against coastal radar installations it said were targeting its warships. The attacks were necessary as the IDF suspects Lebanese Army support for Hezbollah missile strike of Israeli naval vessel yesterday.
What’s new?
April 16, 2001 — Israeli air force fires at Syrian radar installations
"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."▼ ▼ ▼ MY DIARY
Of course this is all about Iran. Israel commits atrocities on Arab neighbors and waits for Iran to respond in some way, so that their rabid dog, Dubya, will go tear out the throat of the Likud’s next chosen victim….Iran.
If Iran so much as flinches at the slaughter going on in Lebanon, Dubya opens the football and starts ordering nuclear strikes.
Christ, those pictures.
And I bet that wouldn’t change the minds of any of our politicians, including Russ Feingold.
Shameful. Totally and utterly shameful.
The rabid, desperate neocons and their insane cohorts in Israel know that the only way they have even a remote chance of retaining power for themselves going forward is to whip the war to a size and intensity which will be impossible for anyone to oppose politically. All con-men know that the bigger the lie, the more people wil believe it. Cheney & Co know that the bigger the war the more people will feel compelled to participate in it.
This is the last chance for the neocons before ’08 to retain their grip on the US foreign policy machinery. They know they’ll be blamed for the Iraq debacle, (even as they themselves shift the blame onto their own imbecillic puppet Bush), but if they can get the US into the wider conflagration now before anyone steps upto challenge the idea too forcefully, then they’ll be ableto say; “See! We told you this war was necessary and the fact that it’s escalating is proof we were right all along”. I’m sure they’re putting enormous pressure on Olmert”s government to make sure the Israelis continue to over-retaliate and in so doing incite the entire region into unstoppable violence.
Cheney and Perle and Rumsfeld and Ledeen and Kristol and Krauthammer and all their minions are insane sociopaths. If they can’t ignite this wider conflagration now they know they’ll have to stage a strategic retreat back into their caves for a while and postpone their delusions of global hegemony and bloodlust for a while. Even though they know the war they’ve started by invadingIraq wil continue for decades anyway, they cannot help but push for even greater violence because they know that once the war reaches a critical mass no one will dare oppose it.
We have never in modern history been so close to the edge of civilizations collapse as we are at this very moment. Even WWII didn’t embody the scale of the threat the current situation does. The Cheney cabal are the most dangerous and destructive pack of lunatics ever to walk the planet.
to see this thing grow into something disastrous because they know that they would likely survive the disaster, it is a distraction from the shit that they have pulled and everybody was looking closely at, Democrats seem soft on being able to protect the nation and use force if the world appears to be a very dangerous place that we may not be safe in, and they can benefit from the chaos and enormous cost of life and stability in the middle east in the longrun, don’t they always?
The neoconservative ideology requires constant war to sustain it’s purpose and usefulness and it’s ability to dominate the populace through fear. Without a constant threat to emotionally blackmail and frighten the public with, they have no power because their ideology provides nothing of value in times of peace.
This is the very core of their insanity, of their malignant and irrational aggression. They must have war else no one will bother to take them seriously and relinquish power to them.
As’ad AbuKhalil posted the email he received with these pictures, which tells how this family met their “fate.” Read it.
So 5 Israeli soldiers were killed and 3 kidnapped.
In response the Israeli government launched an action that has… so far… resulted in 4 dead Israeli citizens and 300 wounded Israeli citizens.
I understand that Israel needs to defend itself and I understand that it has a policy of using overwhelming force in order to intimdate it’s enemies into not acting but I don’t understand how that translates into causing the death of 4 of your own citizens and the wounding of 300 of your own citizens.
This is not an effective or justifiable course of action for self-defense.
And that’s not even addressing the moral issue of what they are doing to the Palestinian or Lebanese people… just their own.
.
Smoke drifts across Beirut, Lebanon Saturday, July 15, 2006 following a nighttime Israeli airstrike on the Hezbollah stronghold in the densely-populated southern suburbs. AP Photo/Ben CurtisThe territorial dispute between Israel and Hezbollah is an area called Shabaa Farms (water resources). This was not settled after the 1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon – architect Ariel Sharon – builder of settlements on Palestinian land in Gaza and the West Bank after 1967.
Israel Kills 34 Civilians in Air Strikes
BEIRUT (Reuters) 20 minutes ago — Israel killed at least 34 civilians, including 15 children, in air strikes meant to punish Lebanon for letting Hizbollah guerrillas menace the Jewish state’s northern border.
≈ Cross-posted from Larry Johnson’s diary with excellent analysis —
Israel Takes a Stupid Pill ≈
"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."▼ ▼ ▼ MY DIARY
Hezbollah who they label as a bunch of terrorist thugs have effectively destroyed one of Israels warships with a model aircraft laden with explosives although I hear now Israel is trying to spin it into a high tech missile attack. Whatever, hezbollah are currently looking heroes around the Islamic world. They stand up to Israel, unlike any Arab government, and they inflict casualties that undermine the omnipotence of the Israeli military. Israel is aware of this. Israel will not stop until they have taken out something big in Hezbollah so thay can claim a “victory”, although it seems Hezbollahs resourcefulness may make this difficult for Israel to achieve. Every little Hezbollah coup like the ship wrecking will just leave the Israelis grasping for an ever bigger target for their “victory”. In the meantime civilians will continue to die, infrastucture will continue to be destroyed, and international support for Israel will diminish. As Israel searches for the “victory” its own actions will undermine any support it had. Israel by its invasion has undermined its own security. Even countries friendly to Israel are questioning its action with the exception of the US which will in all likelihood continue to give cover to Israel in its search for “victory”.
No, it actually was a missile, not a drone. That is not “spin”, it is a fact.
the destruction of the ship is what makes Hezbollah look so powerful and the IDF less powerful.
No point arguing over what destroyed the ship.
between a “missile” and a “drone”? I suspect what Israel wants to claim is that it was a “donated” or “purchased” weapon, not something that Hizballah may have manufactured for themselves.
Since Israel clearly wants to blame Iran (not to mention being loath to admit an unexpected sophistication in Hizballah) I would not trust any IDF claim that had not been confirmed by some other more believable source.
A drone is actually a small plane piloted remotely…there’s a television camera attached to it that allows its pilot to see where he’s guiding it.
Well, there IS a difference between a drone and a missile being used to attack the Israeli warship.
A drone is something Hezbollah MAY have been able to come up with on its own; a missile is something that Hezbollah would definitely have to acquire from an outside source (Syria or Iran). The fact that it is a missile means that Israel is going to tie in the attack on its ship to Syria and/or Iran, who are both next on the “hit list”.
If it were a missile (and different reports say different things), they are available from many arms dealers. Also I’m sure the Lebanese military have missiles, and there are bound to be connections between Hezbollah and the military.
Israel can say what it likes, and will. If Israel is going to attack Iran it will have all been planned a long time ago and just be waiting for the target date to be reached. What hit an Israeli ship and who supplied it is just a lot of propoganda that people will believe or not believe depending on where they are coming from. Lets not get fixated on this.
As an aside who suppklies most of Israels terrorist arsenal? Would a strike on the suppliers of these child massacring weapons by Hezbollah or the Lebanese military be justified? That is a question I would like answered if we are going to get into Hezbollah using a war weapon against a military target of an invading force who were massacring children as they went.
Oh I’m pretty sure the Israelis will manage to find a serial plate or something amidst the wreckage of their ship that will POSITIVELY identify the missile as being of Iranian manufacture.
I guarantee it.
But if they find a made in Iran label and use it to justify attacking Iran and we support it, that means any attack upon the US by Hezbollah is totally justified because we supplied the weapons to Israel to kill children with. Dangerous old precedent that.
Surely you’re not saying that Bush wants to provoke a terrorist attack within the boundaries of the United States! Just look at how the political opposition to Bush has cowered in the wake of 9/11. Another 9/11 would vastly increase Bush’s powers to that of a dictator. And I’m sure our President wouldn’t want that.
even with Bush. I’m just sayin that the made in Iran justification for an attack on Iran gives anyone who has ever been attacked by US weapons a justification for attacking the US.
that Lebanon, like Palestine, has not only the right, but the responsibility, to defend itself against attack, invasion and occupation, and it is my hope that any and all entities capable of mounting any defense against these indiscriminate US funded attacks against civilians and civilian infrastrucure, will disarm and/or destroy as much of Israel’s weapons of mass destruction as possible.
Most of those weapons are, in fact, paid for by the US taxpayers, thus the crimes against humanity being carried out against the people of Palestine and Lebanon by Israeli gunmen who are essentially acting as US proxy forces, do in fact, like the crimes against humanity being carried out against the people of Iraq and Afghanistan by US-based gunmen, constitute US policy, and therefore the will and desires of the American people.
It is, in my opinion, a tragedy unto itself that while there is a small number of Americans with very large moral consciences who are unconditionally opposed to crimes against humanity, the message that they exist never really got out to the Majority World.
As the US moves forward in its goals and objectives, it will become evident that neither ordinary Americans nor ordinary Israelis are the intended beneficiaries, and the impending wave of buyers’ remorse will also be a tragedy in its own right.
somewhat rhetorically, but “historically” a “drone” (aircraft) was an unpowered and pilotless device towed behind another aircraft, typically for target practice. A “missile” was, generally, anything thrown through the air. When “remote controlled drones” (self powered and piloted from the ground) and “guided missiles” (often self powered and “guided” either from the ground or by on-board “guidance systems”) appeared the distinction blurred considerably.
In current parlance the distinctions seem to be two . . . “drones” are “slow” and “missiles” are “fast”, and drones do not typically impact a target (although, like “Predator” they may carry weapons that do) but missiles do. In the “impact” sense whatever took out the Israeli warship was clearly a “missile”, and that the Israeli warship’s crew was taken by surprise suggests either that it was not “slow” or that it was completely unexpected.
Beyond that the choice of word is purely political . . . “drone” is used to suggest that the device was crude and Hizballah “built it themselves” and “missile” is used to suggest a “modern” weapon that they got from someone else (dumb Arabs couldn’t possibly have built a “missile” themselves). Whatever . . .
How can you possibly be so sure it was a missile and not a drone? We know Hezbollah has drones with bombs; we don’t know that they have anti-ship missiles. The original reports were that it was a drone. Then there were lated reports from Israel claiming it was an Iranian missile, which seems politically motivated. It is humiliating for the Israelis to suffer from a Hezbollah model airplane, but useful politically for them to claim they are victims of the perfidious Iranians.
Hence, unlike you, I think the balance of evidence still supports the report that it was a drone.
By the way, I really like the rest of your commentary here, as usual.
…in Israel’s attack on Lebanon, including northern Lebanon.
Here are the facts, in brief:
Why do you think Gaza is now cordoned off? No food is allowed in from the outside world; the rebellious Palestinians, like the Lebanese, will be starved and bombed into submission.
5. The United States prevented this attack from happening last year and could have prevented this attack if it desired to do so. On July 15, the IDF massed its forces near the Gaza Strip, intending to scourge it as it is doing now–but Secretary of State Rice flew to Israel and forced the Israelis to back down. Source: [B] below.
Now, on to a couple of myths:
My sources:
[A] http://counterpunch.org/reinhart07142006.html
[B] Steven Erlanger, ìU.S. Presses Israel to Smooth the Path to a Palestinian Gazaî, New York Times, August 7 2005. (Sorry, you have to be a subscriber to see the article, so no link!)
as the popularity of Hezbollah for sure and Hamas less so may actually increase as they resist the invaders remembering that air power alone is pretty useless against irregular units with local geographical knowledge which is definitely what Hezbollah are.
You condemn the attack on northern Lebanon….
But southern Lebanon (including Beirut) is cool? Attacking civilian targets, which is what the IDF has done in Beirut, is a war crime.
And the Israelis are not only attacking the Palestinians in Gaza, but are trying to starve them into submission. Gaza’s cut off from the outside world–and the primary reason for this attack is because the Palestinians voted in a Hamas-led government that actually stands up to the Israelis, rather than collaborating with them.
I condemn all the attacks–the attack on every part of Lebanon and on Gaza. I take it from your statement that the IDF attacks on southern Lebanon, including Beirut, are OK. So what’s your position on Gaza?
is a bit worrisome, and could do with some clarification.
Eight people were just killed in a Hezbollah-launched rocket attack on Haifa.
Tiberius, a seaside resort in Israel, was hit by rockets for the first time since 1973.
It seems to me that Israel’s attacks on southern Lebanon have only served to escalate the attacks from within southern Lebanon–Hezbollah now calculates it has nothing to lose by hitting back with everything they’ve got.
The Israelis may “win” against Hezbollah in a war of attrition, since the IDF has a bottomless supply of munitions (through its sugar daddy, the US), but Hezbollah does not.
In the short term, Israel will “win”…but it will be a pyrrhic victory.
Certainly it is escalating. After the slaughter of so many Lebanese civilians by Israel Hezbolah were always going respond in kind. I am alos sure they know exactly how Israel will respond and are probably planing on using all their rocket supply in the border area before it gets taken out although to date Israeli intelligence seems to have been woeful compared to its normal standards. I’m sure the IDF will also at some point take out any big weapons Hezbollah has in the south. However, if they occupy south Lebanon, Hezbollah wil merge into the popultion of which they are part and resort to guerila warfare. israel will not in these circmstance be able to defeat Hezbollah unless they want to unleash a holocaust and considering the Jewish history I would hope this is out of the question. What Israel could succeed in doing here is stopping the low number of casualties from occaisonal rocket attacks on their northern outposts that have been going on for years and replacing them with a higher number of casualties in an occupied territory. Hezbollah are part of the fabric of Lebanese society and cannot just be crushed like a standing military. This is the problem for Israel.
So in the absence of an explanation from him, I will take it that he endorses the Israeli attack on southern Lebanon, including civilian targets, but that expanding the attack to the northern half of the country was “overkill”.
Also, no condemnation by Booman of the strangulation and demolition of the Gaza Strip, which is supposed to be sovereign Palestinian territory, so I guess that’s ok, too.
you do a lot of guessing.
I said that Israel should concentrate on securing their northern areas from cross-border rocket attack. I do not consider Beirut ‘southern’ Lebanon, and I have not justified any attacks on civilians.
I said that they have made whatever point they were hoping to make by now. I guess they want to make sure governments in the area understand they will suffer if they allow ‘bandits’ to attack Israel from their territory. Point taken. Lebanon has paid a heavy price. I don’t endorse was Israel has done, I merely ask them to stop now. I think they have made their point. And if they feel the need to keep attacking Lebanon then they must have some other intention.
Need I remind everyone of political reality? There is not much profit in me joining the chorus here. I have never shared my complicated feelings about Israel and Palestine in this forum.
I call for Israel to stop their senseless violence and concentrate on protecting their citizens from cross-border attacks.
The way they have been approaching this in Gaza and Lebanon is not productive and is immoral.
Your original statement was vague. This new statement is somewhat clearer. And yes, when I don’t have information I fill in the blanks for myself.
Well, there’s lots of problems even with a “limited” attack in southern Lebanon.
Problem 1: The government of Lebanon hasn’t wanted to rein in Hezbollah in southern Lebanon for fear of sparking yet another disastrous civil war.
Problem 2: There’s no way to hit at Hezbollah in southern Lebanon without striking civilian targets. Hezbollah doesn’t have a big sign painted on its rooftops reading “Hezbollah HQ” with a bullseye on it for the convenience of the Israelis.
Problem 3: The Israelis want to keep their own IDF casualties low, so they’ve resorted to an air/naval campaign–but, as we saw with NATO action in the former Yugoslavia in the 1990s, air campaigns are of limited effectiveness. You need boots on the ground. The Israelis would have been better advised to send in ground troops in the areas being used to launch most of the missile strikes into their territory, but that would have meant taking politically unpopular casualties on their side. Instead, they’ve opted for this total knockdown of Lebanon, which is going to absolutely devastate the country’s economy and destroy the livelihood of the nation. What will emerge from the rubble of Lebanon will be a rule of warlords, more sectarian violence, and breeding grounds for even more terrorist groups that will make Hezbollah look like a Cub Scout den.
Or the Israelis could have–here’s a crazy idea–asked for the UN to send in a peacekeeping force. But Israeli has never wanted UN troops in Lebanon, because once peacekeepers were on the ground, Israeli can’t do as it wishes.
Problem 4: What about the Gaza Strip? You’ve confined your remarks entirely to Lebanon. Israeli has cordoned off Gaza, which has been besieged since the Palestinians chose their new Hamas-led government in January 2006.
Political reality is not something I’m all that interested in. Reality is what we make it–and if we stay silent on this issue, then yes, the “reality” is that there will never be a change in the Middle East for the better. The “political reality” in the US in 1950, for example, was that our society was legally segregated along racial lines. But certain people refused to accept that “reality” and instead fought to change it.
If speaking up doesn’t do any good, then why are we all here?
My last sentence mentioned gaza.
I haven’t silenced anyone here and have provided threads for discussion.
My positions on Israeli/Palestinian issues are complicated and nuanced, but will do not one iota towards electing a Democratic majority. I do not post my theological beliefs either. I also don’t tell other people not to post these things, nor do I make false arguments against things I may agree with in whole or in part, because I see them as impolitic.
One thing I will not personally fall into is the trap of making this a forum for bashing Israel. Lieberman desperately wants to paint the netroots as hostile to Israel, thereby anti-semitic, and as a result, opposed to him personally. That is total bullshit.
However, all his supporters need to do is link to all the recommended diaries at the Scoop sites, the comments in the threads, and stuff that right down our throats.
Unfortunately, our country is at war in an Arab land, was attacked by Arab terrorists, has been fed a drumbeat of terror threats and fear, has real threats issued from real Muslims on a daily basis, and strongly favors Israel vs. the Arabs in all polls dating back 40 years.
In this atmosphere, the Republicans job is to get us to side with the ‘terrorists’, to outrage the pro-Israel segment of the electorate (many of whom are an indispensible part of our base) and conquer.
Truth and fairness have little to do with it.
I firmly believe we need to be careful and politically astute. Acting like a Pavlovian dog won’t accomplish anything but helping Lieberman and other neo-conservatives retain power.
So, go ahead and make your arguments. But don’t make assumptions about how I feel about things. Just because I am quiet on issues of theology doesn’t mean I am a Christian. And just because I won’t act the puppet to the right’s puppetmaster doesn’t mean that I support the policies of the right and right-center of Israel.
I didn’t say you silenced anybody, so I’m not sure where that remark comes from.
Ok, so you’ve decided to steer the course of practicality and not giving ammunition to the neocons and their tools, like Lieberman.
I disagree in the strongest possible terms that we should be quiet for “practical” reasons. That’s exactly what the neocons have hoped to achieve–we may disagree, but we don’t speak up because the task of going against prevailing public opinion is too strong. People are frightened of the big bad Muslim enemy and the savage Arab because others in the US who know better, like us, have been silent.
Well, when do we say what we really think? Only when it’s politically safe and convenient? At one time, a majority of Americans favored slavery, but that didn’t stop the abolitionists from speaking up. At one time, a majority of Americans favored racial segregation and Jim Crow laws, but that didn’t stop the civil rights movement from speaking up. You have to start somewhere.
Know what? The neocons have NEVER worried about what WE think of them–they stated their principles and fought for them over a long period of time. And they kept hammering at the same thing again and again until they are, today, triumphant.
The neocons have principles. Their principles are evil, but they are principles and they hold to them with a steadfastness and surety that has brought them political power. If only those who opposed them shared a similar strength of conviction, and the bravery to speak up at the risk of being attacked and villified.
I’m not “bashing” Israel–I’m criticizing their entire policy towards the Palestinians as counterproductive to their own interests and to the interests of the United States. What the Israelis is doing is bad for them and bad for us, not to mention their Arab neighbors.
We now have the worst of all possible worlds: Israel is scourging Lebanon and Gaza and those who know it is wrong stay silent out of political expediency.
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people.–Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
That’s a cudgel, but I think you would have found it wrong to pass bussing laws before passing the Civil Rights Act. First we crushed Goldwater then we got the job done. Don’t put the cart before the horse, and never take the bait.
If it’s bait, it ain’t being silent. It’s being prudent.
And no one has accused of being silent, until now, on the war on terrorism and the demonization of Muslims for political purposes.
You’ve got it backwards. You don’t win a crushing political victory and THEN fight for your principles–you win a crushing political victory by fighting FOR your principles.
Democrats have been promising they’ll speak right up about important issues as soon as they get back into the majority. But they’ve lost every election since 1994. Gee, wonder why that is? Couldn’t be because voters perceive that the Democrats as a group are spineless?
You will recall that pundits proclaimed the end of Russ Feingold’s political career when he was the lone senator who voted AGAINST the odious Patriot Act. But Feingold stood on principle…
…and in 2004, was handily re-elected. Turns out that Feingold had been right all along, and what do you know–the voters RESPECTED a man who had the strength and courage of his convictions, even though he knewe it wasn’t POPULAR at the time.
You’re also ignoring that for years, Newt Gingrich stood in a virtually deserted House chamber and gave principled speeches on C-Span. Everybody thought he was nuts…the Republican Old Guard told Newt to get with the program and start compromising with the perpetual Democratic majority. But Newt knew better…and in 1994, became Speaker of the House.
Principles matter. And principles create victory.
(Footnote: We skipped our family vacation in 2004 and gave the money we’d saved to Feingold’s re-election campaign. Best investment we ever made.)
oh please. what a joke.
call me when being branded as anti-israel becomes the road to electoral victory as a matter of principle, expediency, or any other conceivable matter.
next you’ll tell me we can we win supermajorities by running on the patriotism of allowing flag-burning.
we have never lost an election because we were insufficiently critical of Israel.
and if you want to huff and puff about how our elected leaders are not being critical enough right now, go ahead…but pleeease don’t say that it will hurt them politically. Because that is insane.
Here’s a tip…politicians almost never do anything that will hurt them politically. It’s one of their more annoying features.
Bush did not run on invading the middle east, but on a humble foreign policy. LBJ didn’t run on busing black kids into the suburbs either. He made the sacrifice of the south AFTER he had the power to make the changes, not before.
The Democratic consultants have been giving the Dems some bad advice on what will and will not sell with the American public. But soft-pedaling criticism of Israel is not an area where they have been wrong. Failing to push for universal health care, a higher minimum age, and for more corporate accountability are areas where the consultants have been dead wrong.
I didn’t say politicians should seek to be branded “anti-Israel”.
What we should seek is a balanced foreign policy. How about “Israel should have to obey UN resolutions”? You think the majority of the American people will disagree with that?
I don’t. I happen to think that a majority of the American public, when presented with an intelligent presentation of the facts of the Middle East, will agree that it’s unhealthy for both Israel and the United States for Israel to have taken its current course in Lebanon and the Gaza Strip.
That’s not “anti-Israel”, that’s “anti-idiot”.
What you are counseling is more of the same risk-free strategy that has led to Democrats having their heads handed to them time and again.
My positions on Israeli/Palestinian issues are complicated and nuanced, but will do not one iota towards electing a Democratic majority.
No? So while Bush’s popularity continues to go down the toilet because not only is he refusing to intervene in the situation he and his minions can’t even come up with an evacuation plan for American citizens from Lebanon until Wednesday (and this time it won’t be FEMA’s fault), posting your opinion on the matter won’t influence the political situation and strengthen the position of the Democrats? That is, unless, you support what Bush is doing. And that’s not exactly what I see from you.
One thing I will not personally fall into is the trap of making this a forum for bashing Israel.
Who, here, is “bashing” Israel? You may be worried about what others percieve but perceptions can always be twisted to make a point, no matter what the issue. The “bashing” argument is a red herring.
Lieberman desperately wants to paint the netroots as hostile to Israel, thereby anti-semitic, and as a result, opposed to him personally. That is total bullshit.
However, all his supporters need to do is link to all the recommended diaries at the Scoop sites, the comments in the threads, and stuff that right down our throats.
That’s because they have poor reading comprehension skills, a pro-Israel bias and are well-known for attacking non-existent points they believe are being made on left-wing blogs.
That’s going to stop you from posting your views?
In this atmosphere, the Republicans job is to get us to side with the ‘terrorists’, to outrage the pro-Israel segment of the electorate (many of whom are an indispensible part of our base) and conquer.
Where have you been? They’ve been associating leftists with terrorists for one hell of a long time. And if the pro-Israel base can’t stand a discussion about the situation in the ME right now because they’ve already made up their minds, how can anything said on a blog influence their vote?
Truth and fairness have little to do with it.
Supression of the truth has everything to do with it. The right-wingers are masters at it and there’s no reason for anyone to enable them by being a willing victim out of fear.
Greatness speaks the truth. It doesn’t hide from it.
you did read my post on Israel right?
It doesn’t take a misreading of the threads to come up with the idea that many comments are anti-Israeli.
For example, saying that the creation of Israel was an abomination, that the Israelis are committing genocide, that the Israelis are deliberately sucking us into a wider conflict to derail any efforts of ours to read accomodation with Iran and/or Syria, characterizing the Palestinian resistance as guiltless and fully justified. And so on. Regardless of my views on any of those positions, they are views that the right and Lieberman will gleefully point out to make his primary all about his Jewishness and his support for Israel. I am not going to spend the next three weeks doing making their point for them.
That’s my personal decision. I’m also not going to tell critics that they are wrong or that they should be quiet. It’s my decision only, and I never write about Israel except to call on them to forsake violence.
So…it’s okay for others on your site to make such comments*, even though Lieberman et al could use them as justifications for their charges of anti-semitism, but as long as you don’t discuss the issues around Israel, Lieberman et all will see this blog as being supportive of Israel? That doesn’t make sense to me.
(* I haven’t seen any of the extreme comments here such as those you described. On this type of comment that you mentioned: that the Israelis are deliberately sucking us into a wider conflict to derail any efforts of ours to read accomodation with Iran and/or Syria, I don’t see a problem with having such discussions. That’s politics. Pure and simple. And this is a political blog.)
And who the fuck cares what Lieberamn thinks anyway? Everybody and his dog knows that when he played the anti-semitism card it was an act of desperation and there’s plenty of evidence to fire back at him with. I mean, c’mon, who supported him in his run as VP? He was Jewish at that time too, wasn’t he? Suddenly they’re all anti-semites? If he thinks anyone is buying that one, he’s even more dense than I thought.
I’ve been bothered (although it ought to have been expected) that dkos frontpagers are avoiding this subject like the plague but they’ve turned into a staff of stats-producing minions for the most part who just want to focus on polls and candidates. I thought that was MYDD’s job.
Yes, those things are important, but to avoid this huge elephant in the living room on the front pages of prominent blogs will, and in fact already has, be noted by right-wingers as a retreat from expressing opinions that might be poltically incorrect. I know this because I make my rounds on the right-wing blogs and when they see crickets chirping, they talk about it – a lot.
So, if you’re worried about perceptions, that’s another side to this discussion and your strategy may already be backfiring.
Yup. Blood from a stone, catnip. Blood from a stone. They can bait me all they want, but I’m sticking to the facts. Lieberman is wrong on the issues and his position on Israel has nothing to do with why the left has turned on him.
Go ahead and say what you want, tell the truth as you see it. Don’t criticize me for what my decisions about what I want to write about. And I haven’t directed any other FP’ers on what to do or not to do (see Larry).
I wrote two pieces on Ledeen and called on Israel to stop attacking areas of Lebanon that do not threaten their citizen’s lives.
Don’t expect me to start debating the formation of Israel or characterizing their occupation of the west bank and gaza. People will get out all their frustration, moral outrage, and criticisms of the state of Israel whether I join in or not.
They want to split the left and make the face of the netroots transparently and indubitably hostile to Israel. I am not going to play their game.
I’ve said what Israel is doing shows no strategic vision and is immoral and that they should stop. Beyond that, they can go searching in the threads for their material.
Don’t criticize me for what my decisions about what I want to write about. And I haven’t directed any other FP’ers on what to do or not to do (see Larry).
I was trying to understand your decisions and I certainly didn’t say anything about you telling the front pagers what to do.
They want to split the left and make the face of the netroots transparently and indubitably hostile to Israel. I am not going to play their game.
It seems to me there are varied opinions on the left side of the equation. I guess I don’t look at this as a “game”. I’m concerned with people’s lives and the inhumanity involved. I understand that you are coming from a different perspective and I’m not saying it is wrong. It is just foreign to me. And, frankly, the only politics I’m concerned about here is the damage this can and will do to Bush – as it has already – and he damn well deserves it.
Booman, do you really think it will make a difference if you say it or if a bunch of us say it? We’re all “Booman Tribune”. The people you describe, with poor reading skills, are not going to make the nuanced distinction that the statements critical of Israel’s policies are coming from site commentators, not from the site owner.
Here’s how it’ll be presented: “The left-wing wackos at Booman Tribune….”
See what happens when you let us wackos in?
Building a Democratic party around support for Israel shows no strategic vision, is immoral, and should stop. Democrats who have supported Israel are as responsible for what Israel is doing in Lebanon as the Israelis . . . you cannot create a monster, arm it, and then claim innocence when it runs amok.
I made a really extreme comment at the top of the thread when I said: “Fuck the Israelis”. I did. I know that language isn’t productive. But you know….I get really angry and unreasonable when I see pictures of dead babies that were bombed to death by Israel, the U.S. in Iraq, Afghanistan, and yes, innocent Israelis on buses. But for me, I can’t argue too much with the Palestinians fighting back with one of the few weapons they have against oppressors who have their boots on the throats of the Palestinian people.
My apologies. But electing democrats isn’t the first thing that comes to mind when I see dead babies, of any nationality or ethnic group.
in feeling this way
…that you were a human being first. Your first reaction was one of a person who wasn’t making some political calculation but was responding to the suffering of fellow human beings.
Yep, I knew you were a good guy.
and I’m not seeing anything that mentions the 3 Lebanese prisoners that Israel has held for 6 years or so.
Sorry if folks aren’t up for an orange link, but this guy tells it very well:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/7/16/02617/0589
Including maps of where this has gone down, pointing up the spin Israel has to use to make its claim.
I’m sure you’ll love this. Newt Gingrich has proclaimed that this is WW3 and here’s his plan:
Terry Schiavo? Emergency session of congress.
WW3? There’s BBQing to be done. It can bloody well wait til September and there’d damn well better be fightin’ words so we can win the election!
Fucking wanker.
Now, let me add this sidebar for Booman: I’ve been waiting for you to post your position on this situation and, frankly, saying Israel’s made its point and that this isn’t an even fight is a bit less than what I expected. I don’t expect you to be as outraged and concerned about all of this as I am, but that’s a pretty dry post you made there.
What Israel is doing is illegal. Civilian csualties continue to rise on both sides – or all sides if you include Gaza. The US administration has done absolutely nothing. You’re seeing what’s left of America’s exceptionalism (if there is anything left at all of it) being decimated. More terrorists are being created. Your country is now in more danger than ever. Geez. I’m not even an American (and you know how I feel about exceptionalism – but let’s not open that wound again) and I see this as a huge disaster for America and the rest of the world.
I don’t know. It’s not that I expect you to morph into MSOC but a little concern might be in order, n’est-ce pas?
I’m now going back to my online bomb shelter to see if I can regain a bit of my sanity once again – what little is left of it.
You all stay safe.
Try WAR CRIME.
The Israeli air force is destroying water sanitation facilities, power generation stations, and other civilian infrastructure targets (along with many innocent civilians) in Beirut.
Israel has also cut off Gaza from the outside world, preventing food and medical supplies from entering the area.
I know they’re “quaint” and all that, but may I please quote from the Geneva Conventions?
The Israeli air force not only destroyed a major electrical generation station in Beirut, but also are targeting fuel depots, which results in large explosions and fires that endanger the civilian population.
The Israelis have also blockaded Beirut’s ports, preventing food from moving into Lebanon, and bombed Beirut’s airport so that supplies cannot be airlifted in. Israel has also bombed roads on Lebanon’s borders, making it difficult or impossible for supplies to move in via land routes. It’s a clear “strangle and starve” strategy, and it IS a war crime under the Geneva Conventions.
God damn it, the Geneva Conventions we’ve all been howling for Bush to respect have got to mean something ALL the time or Bush was right, they’re just a quaint notion that means absolutely nothing. We can’t just ignore them when Israel claims a right of self-defense in blasting the living daylights out of Lebanon.
Let me make it plain: If you endorse the Israeli attack on civilian infrastructure in Lebanon, you are endorsing Bush’s position that the Geneva Conventions are no longer applicable. It’s as simple as that.
http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/94.htm
okay okay okay
I thought the link made it obvious that they were violating the Geneva Conventions. Sheesh. Of course they’re war crimes and I would never shy away from saying so.
I wasn’t criticizing, I was putting a more special emphasis on it. Calling it “illegal” is correct but just too mild in my opinion. Jaywalking is illegal, too.
Insanity reigns supreme.
…for the most succinct explanation (from that Little Orange diary) of the American economic model, to wit:
Remember, people, get out there and buy shit. It’s your patriotic duty. If you stop buying shit, the terrorists win.
Reminds me of George Carlin and his stuff.
cos they sure aint gonna do it themselves.
‘Innocent Human Beings-Children,Women,Men’ -HELL YES
Bodies of civilian adults and children are seen in and around the wreckage of their vehicles on the main road near the village of Ter Harfa, Lebanon, July 15, 2006. At least 12 Lebanese villagers, including women and children, were killed in an Israeli air attack on a convoy of vehicles evacuating civilians from a village in southern Lebanon. The convoy was leaving the village of Marwaheen, when it was attacked. (AP Photo/Nasser Nasser)
A United Nations medic holds the body of one of the children butchered near the village of Ter Harfa, Lebanon, July 15, 2006. At least 12 Lebanese villagers, including women and children, were killed in an Israeli air attack on a convoy of vehicles evacuating civilians from the village in Lebanon. The convoy was leaving the village of Marwaheen, when it was attacked. REUTERS/Haidar Hawila (LEBANON)
As Thomas puts it in the latest issue of GI SPECIAL 4G15: ‘TERRORISTS AT WORK’.pdf
“NEXT TIME YOU HEAR SOMEBODY WHINING ABOUT RESISTANCE BOMBERS OR MISSILES ATTACKING PUBLIC PLACES IN ISRAEL, CRAM THIS PHOTO UP THEIR ASS WITH A SHARP STICK”
GI SPECIAL 4G15: ‘TERRORISTS AT WORK’.pdf
Okay. We all seem to agree that this is a terrible situation. We have had some astute and passionate reactions. My question, and it is that, is what do we DO, other than weeping and throwing things?
We need to get creative and organized fast. I don’t LTE’s and petition drives are going to work — at least not in a timely enough fashion. I’m stumped at the moment. Any ideas?
The situation is grave, as events set in motion so long ago insured that it would be.
At this point, any action that could possibly have any real effect, if indeed such is possible at this point, would not fall into a category which would be prudent to discuss on a public message board, especially one that resides on a US server.
I regret that the US did not make different choices.
Nope, disagree!
When superpowers with nuclear weapons oppose each other seriously (i.e., cuban missle crisis)from a military perspective, then the situation is grave. When the superpowers on earth are not against each other, but indeed are both angry/afraid of the same contra philosophy, things are more for show than anything else from a global war pe3rspective. Watch and see!
by many people in the world, and I am not going to be the one to attempt to take it from you; on the contrary, I am in favor of hope, and encourage all to strive for it.
At the same time, the US does have, to say the least, a large quantity of weapons, and it is not likely that they will find any nation or people who will be willing to comply with the popular American policy that any defensive action against attacks by the US, either directly or via proxy, is forbidden.
I know we all like to make jokes about the stupidity of the various inhabitants of Washington and their various henchmen, but in reality they are not stupid and they have been quite candid about their intentions.
DTF, go play “Mysterious Spy” somewhere else, please. The grownups are talking. I’m sure you find it great fun to pretend that you are a dangerous radical but quite frankly you look ridiculous.
Kahli, there are groups planning marches in protest of Israeli’s attack on Lebanon and Gaza, but the best we can hope for is to pressure Congress into demanding a ceasefire and pullback of Israeli troops–and even that is going to take a monumental effort. Sad truth is, once troops have been set into motion, anti-war protests have never taken them out of the field.
As always, though, the answer is non-violent protest, just as we saw with the recent mass protests against the draconian “immigration reform”.
Contrary to what some anti-American commentators on this message board think, most Americans DO have a conscience and their hearts can be turned if they see the suffering of the people of Lebanon and Gaza. And let us not forget that while it may be very difficult to criticize Israel in the US without having charges of anti-Semitism hurled at you, that is most assuredly NOT the case in Europe. European governments may well help pressure Bush to pull short the leash on his Israeli attack dogs, although that is probably a forlorn hope.
The short answer: We can protest, we can write letters to Congress, we can hope for pressure from the Europeans…but mostly, events will just take their course and the slaughter of the Lebanese and Palestinian people will proceed apace, just as it continues in Iraq. That’s why we need to demand a different foreign policy from the “opposition party” (the Democrats, remember), rather than just a more competent version of the neocon imperialism that got us into this mess in the first place.
some anti-American commentators on this message board think
Stop the name calling.
Sounds like an order to me, Spiderleaf. But I’m not in the army anymore and I don’t take orders too good.
I call people names when they earn them. If you consistently write anti-American screeds that consign the vast majority of Americans to the category of unprincipled, bloodthirsty barbarians, then hell yes you’re “anti-American”. I call a spade a spade. Notice that I was polite enough not to mention the names of the handful of people here who are so brimming with animosity towards Americans as a people that it constitutes the entirety of their writing on this site, but if you want to name names, be my guest.
And don’t ever tell me what I can or cannot write on this site. Nobody does that. Got it?
Actually, there are rules here. It’s called “don’t be a prick” and you are most definitely being one with your slurs against any who don’t think exactly the way you do. I’m not in your army and I don’t take kindly to people calling others names.
In case you missed it, BooMan invited DTF to post on this site. A lot of us can deal with him and disagree with him without using such loaded and bullshit language as “anti-American”.
but if I didn’t put it in my “Happy Enemy Blogging” piece the other day, different people have different needs, and there are certain needs, and certain feelings, that it if they can be sated sitting at a computer, it is my humble privilege to be “called names,” and thus possibly be a part of reducing the volatile potential for offline “venting” that unlike the “name-calling,” could do real harm.
And I must again point out that it was not BooMan who invited me to post here, although he has mentioned such a recollection, which I do not know, but I think may be because the person who did tell me of the site’s existence and invite me possibly asked him first if they might do so.
So you’re going to let yourself be the object of “name-calling” so that your clearly unmentally balanced opponents don’t “go postal” and shoot people in the streets, right? Because nobody in their right mind would oppose DTF…if you oppose DTF, you are, by definition, mentally unbalanced and potentially violent.
Oh give me a break…the Passion of Ductape Fatwa, now playing at a blog right in front of you.
And don’t ever tell me what I can or cannot write on this site. Nobody does that. Got it?
Oh, and btw, nice hypocrisy about giving orders eh.
Again, you are the one who associated DTF with the “anti-American” label. I never mentioned anybody by name.
You are trying to control the content of my speech by telling me what I can and cannot do. Who died and left you the rules enforcer of Booman Tribune? I missed that memo.
…while we’re at it.
Anybody else notice that DTF always has OTHER people do his fighting for him?
He’s got a problem with what somebody writes here, let HIM answer it. He doesn’t seem to have a problem attacking Americans in general, but doesn’t seem to have the stomach for an honest one-on-one argument.
I have zero respect for somebody who tosses off inflammatory slurs against MY country and then walks away from the ensuing shitstorm.
Notice that I was polite enough not to mention the names of the handful of people here who are so brimming with animosity towards Americans as a people that it constitutes the entirety of their writing on this site, but if you want to name names, be my guest.
Go ahead. Name names of those who are “brimming with animosity towards Americans as a people”. I’d like to know who they are.
…that’s the only person I was thinking of, really.
If you thought I meant you, Catnip, you’re wrong.
and frankly I’m surprised that this comes as a surprise to anyone. Have you been blindly voting for Democrats who support Israel without understanding what you were voting for? Have you been blind to the evil that Israel has been doing in Palestine for the past 60 years? This is what you get when you establish and support a racist state based on racial “entitlement” and “superiority”. Really, what did you expect?
“What to do” begins with a fundamental change in understanding of what has been done . . . is Lebanon enough to provoke that? Will you ever again vote for or otherwise support a politician who supports Israel?
Or will it all once again be papered over and ultimately be ignored because we need votes to raise the minimum wage?
It’s time to organize a movement for divestment and a boycott of Israel like we did around Apartheid Sout Africa. We cannot pretend to fight terrorism or to have any credebility while supporting an agressive terrorist state that antagonizes an entire region. Our support and underwiting of Israel must stop if we can’t use it to reign them in.
I have some concern about boycotts because they, too, punish the innocent. Still the harm caused a boycott might be better than the current situation especially if it could be effective in the long term.
I don’t know much about how the South African divestment started. How did people go about implementing it? Do you have any information? I have to go out this morning but I’ll try to reasearch it a bit later today.
Ve haf lawz against zat type of thing. It’s “anti-semitic.”
Seriously. There’ a movement though in Europe.
…is not anti-Semitism. Yes, if you oppose those, you should prepare yourself for the charge of anti-Semitism. AIPAC and other informal pro-Israeli lobbying organizations have done a masterful job of snowing the Congress (during their latest lobbying effort, AIPAC deployed over 1,000 lobbyists to Congress–that’s 2 lobbyists for every member of the House plus a hundred or so left over for the Senate!) but I think a public information campaign about the true intent of Israel’s government would turn the sentiment of the American people away from blind support of Israel.
Why is the United States so nice to Israel? Jesus, they haven’t got any oil. If we’re going to suck up to a raft of murderous bastards, let’s suck up to the Saudis or the Iranians. At least they’ve got the Precious.
Back off, I don’t need the lecture. Sorry my sarcasm didn’t come through the first time.
Acceptance of the notion that opposition to Zionist expansion & occupation is “anti-semitic” is near mono-lithic in the country, & certainly in Congress, which is why we can have a law that makes it illegal to advocate an economic boycott of Israel.
Boxer came out the other day to voice her support for Israel “defending itself.” Anyone hear from that great beacon of “progressive” Liberalism in the Senate on this situation? Calling Mr. Feingold . . .
Israeli excpetionalism is but the mini-version of ours, & enabled by it econmomically, militarily, & yes, ‘psychically.’
It struck me last night that the near instant acceptance in the US for attacking Afghanistan was the 40+ years of indoctrination we’ve been subjected to vis a vis Israel & the Palestinians. We were well ‘softened up’ to parrot a narrative whose parameters are “right to self-defense” vs. “terror.”
It’s a narrative that has no winners, many losers, & apparently no end . . .
You DID notice the destruction of lower Manhattan, and you DID notice that our government said the attackers had been trained in camps in Afghanistan, right?
It seems to me that if you put those two facts together and then say that we are going to go get rid of those camps and the government that tolerated them, that any group of people would see the logic without the need for brainwashing.
Now, you can question whether the government gave an accurate rendering of the facts, and you can question whether the invasion of Afghanistan was the best response to 9/11. And you can question our strategy in Afghanistan, and our commitment. All of it. But to suggest that the American people were brainwashed into thinking about defending ourselves against terror is to ignore the gaping holes on Wall Street and in the Pentagon.
If those holes were made by Arabs trained in Afghanistan then it made sense to go get those Arabs and their Afghan enabler. Or should we just have said “thank you, sir, may I have another?”
for perfectly illustrating the point I was making.
which was what?
I took your point to be one of two things.
Either we should have reacted to 9/11 by leaving the camps in Afghanistan alone and retreating from the region, or…
that we should not have so easily believed the official explanation.
If you’d like to define a more nuanced position, go ahead.
A black & white world of good/evil, legitmate self-defense/terror leads to the equally black & white either/or proposition of doing nothing vs. all-out war, and we’ve demonstrated a total lack of imagination for any other option, diplomatic or otherwise. Demonizing an entire people makes bombing & slaughtering them all the more possible, & that racism is deeply embedded in the narrative of history we tell ourselves.
As far as Afghanistan, in my recent comments are some thoughts on extradition if you’re interested.
It’s all more complicated of course, & we’d probably both agree that conflating al Qaeda with Hamas & Hezbollah under the rubric of “terror” elides much reality.
2 groups working on it:
The International Crisis Group
International Relations Center
It’s that disproportionate and disconnected response thing, again. Did the hijackers train in Afgan “training camps” or in American flight schools and German (and American) apartment buildings? did Afghanistan attack the United States, or did a criminal gang with just some part of their operation (bribes duly paid) in Afghanistan attack the United States? How many of the thousands of people we’ve killed in Afghanistan had any connection with 9/11, or with Al Quaida in any way? The leap from 9/11 to bombing all of Afghanistan (even further) into the stone age required, if not brainwashing then at least a well cultivated lack of either understanding, or morals, or both.
Which is why it was so easy for most Americans to translate 9/11 to Iraq . . . the arguments made were the same, even if the “facts” about Afghanistan were a little bit better. But in neither case did the “facts” necessitate or justify wholesale bombing and the destruction of the whole country (which is not to say that what the Taliban were doing was in any way good either . . . but we have no record either before or since of replacing such governments with anything any better).
We had worldwide support after 9/11 to hunt down and capture, even to kill if necessary, the perpetrators of 9/11. We didn’t do that, though (no bombs fell on Saudi Arabia). We invaded and demolished Afghanistan (as a warm up) and Iraq instead. If “brainwashed” doesn’t describe the mental state of Americans who supported that (and the many who still do) what word would you offer instead?
Actually, the pilots of the planes that struck the World Trade Center Towers and the Pentagon appear to have been trained in American flight schools.
FBI field agents tried to alert the “President” but he was too busy chopping brush to listen.
Over 12,000 Afghanis have died in American bombing runs since 11 September 2001. People who had abso-fucking-lutely nothing to do with 9/11 and were just trying to live their lives.
And we wonder why they hate us.
Sometimes I wonder whether we’ve all lost it. The current hideous crisis demands something more than empty moral judgements. At the root of all of this is the Arabic (Islamic) refusal to recognize Israel’s right to exist. Everything that has happened over the years reflects not morality but tactics, regardless of side.
I’m one of those who think that the 1948 partition was a montrosity (as all partitions seem to have turned out) but it became a fait accompli. The only question that must to be answered (and that no one has answered yet) is what strategy will produce an outcome that allows Israel to continue to exist? If there are none, let’s have no more prattling about whether Israel’s actions are “sensible” or “restrained.” Such judgements demand a context. Is that context Israel’s survival or is that context some other rubric?
Speaking only for myself, I am most afraid that the current Israeli actions are part of a larger plan to allow the US to attack Syria and Iran. There are things that are troubling here. The tunnel dug to attack Israeli trooops and consummate the kidnapping was planned well in advance. It was a tactic designed to provoke. Why? Why were on-going negotiations and the possibility of a Hamas recognition of Israel(implied rather than explicit but at least something more than the usual)scuttled by “other parties?” Presumably those parties were Syria and Iran.
Is it possible that the current Hezbollah provocations were designed to remove UN scrutiny and focus on Iranian nuclear ambitions?
Dos anyone hear have a coherent answer to any of these questions? If not, could we stop the shrill judgements? These help no one and hurt we on the left most of all. Israel’s actions aren’t perfumed, but the scents of Hamas and Hezbollah are equally noxious.
that must to be answered (and that no one has answered yet) is what strategy will produce an outcome that allows Israel to continue to exist?”
Oh, Really ? ? ?
No question needs be answered about what compensation is due the Palestinians for the confiscation of their homes and farms to “make space” for a racist State?
No question needs be answered about about 60 years of abuse and repression?
The “only” question is how to preserve and guarantee Israel’s continued “ownership” and rule in Palestine?
How convenient.
Here’s another question you seem to have missed . . . how is it that every time Palestinians build a bridge, or an office, or pretty much anything that might make a Palestinian state possible, Israel bombs it to rubble, but every time an illegal settlement gets built (on Palestinian land) it becomes a “fact on the ground” and Israel must be expanded to include it?
First, it would be helpful if you responded without snark. Rather than answer any points, you replied with rhetorical questions to which you’ve already supplied the answers.
Had you bothered to ask, you might have found out that I’m pro Palestinian and always have been, a position usually not taken by any Arabic/Islamic entities who have preferred to use Palestine as a stand-in for larger geo-political ambitions.
We are all left with the detritus of history here, and no one will get anywhere by citing atrocities on one side without acknowledging atrocities on their own.
If it’s your position that Israel is entirely to blame here, how do you propose to solve the current crisis given that position? Do you think punitive actions are an answer when clearly Israel is behaving as if it’s survival is at stake?
Better yet, if you’re a US citizen how does your solution promote US interests? If you’re a citizen elsewhere, how will your solution make things better for your own homeland? If your answer is simply that Israel must be eradicated, your solution is merely murderous and adds nothing. Sovereign nations, regardless of right or wrong don’t assist in their own destruction.
I’m asking for a deeper response from you, something more than snark, something more nourishing than war cries.
Snark? Maybe . . . it’s just that I’m so fed up with “entitlement” and “exceptonalism” that I read your “only question” to mean “only question”, when it’s not only not the “only” question but not even the most important question. The disease in Palestine will not be cured by treating the symptoms, or doing anything for Israel, but only by treating the root cause, and the root cause is the still unresolved injustice done to the Palestinians to create the “Jewish” state in Palestine. Resolve that injustice and the rest resolves itself, leave it festering and . . .
If Israel and the US had spent a fraction of what has been spent on weapons and walls and illegal settlements on resolving the needs of the Palestinians they’d have peace now. Instead they insisted that the refugees (that they created) were “someone else’s problem” and did nothing (except keep taking more land), and have never seemed able to get past a sense of self righteous entitlement . . . certainly have never seemed able to take responsibility for what they themselves did.
The issues in Palestine will be resolved when Israel takes it on as Israel’s responsibility to “do right” by the Palestinians, when Israelis finally sit down and ask themselves what they would want if the situation was reversed . . . if the Palestinians were Jews, and the Jews Palestinian. When Israel does that then everything will be fine.
I’ll agree with one point: there must come a point where both the Palestinians and the Israelis see themselves as one community or all we’ll be left with is dust and ash. Israel must at some point do right by the Palestinians, and the latter must do right by Israel.
How do we get there? What tactics make sense, especially in view of hegemonic dreams of the US, Syria and Iran? In the meantime, Palestinians suffer horribly, and a people who are among the most literate and creative in the world, a people who revere education and who would in some alternate universe seem almost indistinguishable from their Israeli neighbors in intelligence, values and temperment, seem fated to be the Islamic equivalents of medieval Jew.
We are left with frightening questions now that no one seems to answer.
It is entirely up to the Israelis. They are the “come from aways”, they brought the problem, it is theirs to fix. And they refuse, so far, to do anything to fix it. There’s not a lot that the Palestinians need to do or can do . . . they didn’t take anyone’s homes or farms, they didn’t put anyone in concentration camps. You’ll have to look deep into your imagination to find anything the Palestinians have done that looks even remotely like what Israel did in Jenin or Ramallah or Rafah. Israel has already taken 80% of the land in Palestine, 90% of the water. There is obviously a whole hell of a lot that Israel must do to do right by the Palestinians. What would you expect the Palestinians to do for Israel?
Is it possible that the current Hezbollah provocations were designed to remove UN scrutiny and focus on Iranian nuclear ambitions?
Nations ignore UN resolutions and international condemnations all the time. Look at N Korea’s response to the resolution passed yesterday. For that matter, look at all of the UN resolutions Israel has ignored.
It’s important to consider history here: in the past, Israel has done prisoner swaps with Hezbollah. Why should Hezbollah have thought the reaction this time would have been any different?
What that says to me is that Israel is up to more here than meets the eye, not necessarily Hezbollah or Iran. That’s my humble opinion.
Ohlmert’s government has not tried to expand the conflict to Syria and Iran, but Bush’s government has tried to do so.
Ohlmert’s government in Israel is either an unwitting pawn of the Bush neocons, or else is a willing pawn in a chess game. The object? Knock Syria off the board once and for all, and knock Iran down in the same way that Lebanon is being knocked down–not by invasion and occupation but by a massive aerial bombardment that sets Iran’s economy back 20 years and terrorizes its people.
Remember, the Israelis almost certainly asked for, received, the blessing of the Bush neocons before they launched their massive attack on civilians in Gaza and Lebanon and escalated what had been a simmering, low-level conflict into full-scale slaughter.
I think that Bush is hoping to lure Syria into Lebanon and thereby grant the pretext for Israel to bomb the daylights out of Syria, and is also trying to tie Iran into fomenting terrorism against Israel. “Iran is a danger to the peace and stability of the region….” and then the skies over Tehran will darken with American fighters and bombers.
I feel intensely frustrated because I doubt there’s a way for us to stop it. A million or more of us marched in protest of the Iraq invasion before it began, to no avail; and once a military action is already under way, it is nigh-impossible to rein it in. These are days that make me despair of every bringing right and justice into this world.
I share your despair and feel powerless.
Ohlmert’s government has not tried to expand the conflict to Syria and Iran, but Bush’s government has tried to do so.
I’d have to disagree with that observation. See this, this, this and so on.
It should be recalled that when the infamous quote by Iran’s president was reported (innacurately) that Israel should be ‘wiped off the map’, Shimon Peres issued his warning that “the president of Iran should remember that Iran can also be wiped off the map.”
I don’t know who’s using who here politically, but Bushco is definitely complict now by refusing to go along with other world leaders (besides my Canadian wanker Conservative Prime Minister) who’ve said that Israel’s response is disproportionate.
Bush et al don’t seem to be in too much of a hurry to do anything about this conflict. Hell, the news today is that they won’t even have an evacuation plan for Americans in Lebanon until Wednesday while other countries are already on their way over their to get their citizens.
手机铃声 铃声下载 免费铃声 免费铃声下载 免费手机铃声下载 和弦铃声 三星铃声 三星手机铃声下载 MP3铃声 手机铃声下载 手机自编铃声 MP3手机铃声 诺基亚铃声下载 NOKIA铃声下载 小灵通铃声下载 真人铃声 MP3铃声下载 自编铃声 联通铃声下载 移动手机铃声下载 联通手机铃声免费下载 TCL铃声 飞利浦铃声下载 特效铃声 搞笑铃声 MIDI铃声 铃声图片 MMF铃声下载 免费手机图片下载 免费手机点歌 手机短信 手机彩信 手机彩铃 康佳手机铃声下载 TCL手机铃声下载 迪比特手机铃声下载 手机和旋铃声 三星手机铃声 三星手机和弦铃声下载 波导手机铃声下载 熊猫手机铃声下载 免费手机铃声 科健手机铃声下载 海尔手机铃声下载 诺基亚手机铃声下载 手机和弦铃声 手机铃声图片下载 飞利浦手机铃声下载 手机自编铃声曲谱 小灵通手机铃声下载 手机铃声编辑 CDMA手机铃声下载 摩托罗拉手机铃声下载 联通CDMA手机铃声下载 松下手机铃声下载 东信手机铃声下载 联想手机铃声下载 中兴手机铃声下载 大显手机铃声下载 首信手机铃声下载 三星手机自编铃声 三星CDMA手机铃声 康佳手机和弦铃声 MP3手机铃声下载 索尼爱立信手机铃声 手机铃声大全 三星手机铃声图片下载 手机特效铃声 手机铃声制作 三星手机铃声免费下载 TCL手机自编铃声 松下手机自编铃声 飞利浦手机自编铃声 诺基亚手机自编铃声 摩托罗拉自编铃声 三星手机MP3铃声 手机MP3铃声制作软件 免费MP3铃声下载 摩托罗拉MP3铃声 三星MP3铃声下载 联通MP3铃声下载 中国移动铃声下载 中国联通手机铃声下载 免费联通手机铃声 联通铃声 联通用户手机铃声下载 联通手机和弦铃声下载 联通手机铃声图片下载 小灵通铃声免费下载 和弦铃声免费下载
免费下载三星铃声 诺基亚免费铃声下载 联通免费铃声下载 免费铃声图片下载 MMF铃声免费下载 TCL免费铃声下载 免费下载铃声 手机铃声免费下载 松下免费铃声下载 NOKIA免费铃声下载 MIDI铃声免费下载 和弦铃声下载 TCL免费手机铃声下载 免费手机铃声图片下载 免费手机铃声下载网站 小灵通手机铃声免费下载 诺基亚手机铃声免费下载 摩托罗拉手机铃声免费下载 三星和弦铃声 CECT和弦铃声下载 三星T108和弦铃声 NOKIA和弦铃声下载 康佳和弦铃声下载 迪比特和弦铃声下载 阿尔卡特和弦铃声 CDMA和弦铃声下载 夏新和弦铃声下载 西门子和弦铃声 诺基亚和弦铃声 联通和弦铃声 三星铃声下载 三星和旋铃声 三星T108铃声下载 三星手机铃声乐园 三星CDMA铃声下载 三星免费铃声 三星真人铃声 诺基亚3100铃声下载 NOKIA手机铃声下载 怎样下载小灵通铃声 真人铃声下载 真人真唱手机铃声下载 联通用户铃声下载 联通CDMA铃声下载 TCL手机铃声图片下载 TCL手机和弦铃声下载 飞利浦630铃声下载 三星特效铃声 手机特效铃声下载 搞笑短信 MMF手机铃声 MMF格式铃声 免费短信 短信笑话 幽默短信 经典短信 谜语短信 短信祝福 爆笑短信 生日短信 爱情短信 精彩短信 情人节短信 短信传情 节日短信 彩信图片 彩信动画 彩信相册 免费彩信下载 三星彩信 联通彩信 移动彩信 彩信铃声 免费彩铃下载 移动彩铃 联通彩铃 12530彩铃 小灵通彩铃 免费三星手机铃声 免费和弦铃声 手机图铃下载 免费图铃下载 待机彩图 三星手机待机彩图 丰胸铃声
网络游戏 免费游戏下载 小游戏 在线游戏 游戏外挂 游戏论坛 游戏点卡 联众游戏 泡泡堂游戏 游戏攻略 FLASH游戏 单机游戏下载 美女 美女图片 美女写真 美女论坛 性感美女 美女走光 街头走光 走光照片 免费电影下载 免费在线电影 免费电影在线观看 小电影 免费成人电影 免费激情电影 电影论坛 PP点点通电影下载 BT电影下载 免费三级电影 爱情电影 舒淇电影 韩国电影 周星驰电影 流行音乐 免费音乐下载 音乐在线 在线音乐 古典音乐 音乐试听 MP3音乐 MP3下载 MP3播放器 MP3随身听 免费MP3歌曲下载 QQ下载 申请QQ QQ幻想外挂 QQ表情 QQ挂机 珊瑚虫QQ QQ头像 QQ游戏 QQ空间代码 QQ个性签名 网络小说 玄幻小说 成人小说 爱情小说 小说下载 金庸小说 武侠小说 聊天室 语音聊天室 列车时刻表
手机铃声 铃声下载 免费铃声 免费铃声下载 免费手机铃声下载 和弦铃声 三星铃声 三星手机铃声下载 MP3铃声 手机铃声下载 手机自编铃声 MP3手机铃声 诺基亚铃声下载 NOKIA铃声下载 小灵通铃声下载 真人铃声 MP3铃声下载 自编铃声 联通铃声下载 移动手机铃声下载 联通手机铃声免费下载 TCL铃声 飞利浦铃声下载 特效铃声 搞笑铃声 MIDI铃声 铃声图片 MMF铃声下载 免费手机图片下载 免费手机点歌 手机短信 手机彩信 手机彩铃 康佳手机铃声下载 TCL手机铃声下载 迪比特手机铃声下载 手机和旋铃声 三星手机铃声 三星手机和弦铃声下载 波导手机铃声下载 熊猫手机铃声下载 免费手机铃声 科健手机铃声下载 海尔手机铃声下载 诺基亚手机铃声下载 手机和弦铃声 手机铃声图片下载 飞利浦手机铃声下载 手机自编铃声曲谱 小灵通手机铃声下载 手机铃声编辑 CDMA手机铃声下载 摩托罗拉手机铃声下载 联通CDMA手机铃声下载 松下手机铃声下载 东信手机铃声下载 联想手机铃声下载 中兴手机铃声下载 大显手机铃声下载 首信手机铃声下载 三星手机自编铃声 三星CDMA手机铃声 康佳手机和弦铃声 MP3手机铃声下载 索尼爱立信手机铃声 手机铃声大全 三星手机铃声图片下载 手机特效铃声 手机铃声制作 三星手机铃声免费下载 TCL手机自编铃声 松下手机自编铃声 飞利浦手机自编铃声 诺基亚手机自编铃声 摩托罗拉自编铃声 三星手机MP3铃声 手机MP3铃声制作软件 免费MP3铃声下载 摩托罗拉MP3铃声 三星MP3铃声下载 联通MP3铃声下载 中国移动铃声下载 中国联通手机铃声下载 免费联通手机铃声 联通铃声 联通用户手机铃声下载 联通手机和弦铃声下载 联通手机铃声图片下载 小灵通铃声免费下载 和弦铃声免费下载
免费下载三星铃声 诺基亚免费铃声下载 联通免费铃声下载 免费铃声图片下载 MMF铃声免费下载 TCL免费铃声下载 免费下载铃声 手机铃声免费下载 松下免费铃声下载 NOKIA免费铃声下载 MIDI铃声免费下载 和弦铃声下载 TCL免费手机铃声下载 免费手机铃声图片下载 免费手机铃声下载网站 小灵通手机铃声免费下载 诺基亚手机铃声免费下载 摩托罗拉手机铃声免费下载 三星和弦铃声 CECT和弦铃声下载 三星T108和弦铃声 NOKIA和弦铃声下载 康佳和弦铃声下载 迪比特和弦铃声下载 阿尔卡特和弦铃声 CDMA和弦铃声下载 夏新和弦铃声下载 西门子和弦铃声 诺基亚和弦铃声 联通和弦铃声 三星铃声下载 三星和旋铃声 三星T108铃声下载 三星手机铃声乐园 三星CDMA铃声下载 三星免费铃声 三星真人铃声 诺基亚3100铃声下载 NOKIA手机铃声下载 怎样下载小灵通铃声 真人铃声下载 真人真唱手机铃声下载 联通用户铃声下载 联通CDMA铃声下载 TCL手机铃声图片下载 TCL手机和弦铃声下载 飞利浦630铃声下载 三星特效铃声 手机特效铃声下载 搞笑短信 MMF手机铃声 MMF格式铃声 免费短信 短信笑话 幽默短信 经典短信 谜语短信 短信祝福 爆笑短信 生日短信 爱情短信 精彩短信 情人节短信 短信传情 节日短信 彩信图片 彩信动画 彩信相册 免费彩信下载 三星彩信 联通彩信 移动彩信 彩信铃声 免费彩铃下载 移动彩铃 联通彩铃 12530彩铃 小灵通彩铃 免费三星手机铃声 免费和弦铃声 手机图铃下载 免费图铃下载 待机彩图 三星手机待机彩图 丰胸铃声
网络游戏 免费游戏下载 小游戏 在线游戏 游戏外挂 游戏论坛 游戏点卡 联众游戏 泡泡堂游戏 游戏攻略 FLASH游戏 单机游戏下载 美女 美女图片 美女写真 美女论坛 性感美女 美女走光 街头走光 走光照片 免费电影下载 免费在线电影 免费电影在线观看 小电影 免费成人电影 免费激情电影 电影论坛 PP点点通电影下载 BT电影下载 免费三级电影 爱情电影 舒淇电影 韩国电影 周星驰电影 流行音乐 免费音乐下载 音乐在线 在线音乐 古典音乐 音乐试听 MP3音乐 MP3下载 MP3播放器 MP3随身听 免费MP3歌曲下载 QQ下载 申请QQ QQ幻想外挂 QQ表情 QQ挂机 珊瑚虫QQ QQ头像 QQ游戏 QQ空间代码 QQ个性签名 网络小说 玄幻小说 成人小说 爱情小说 小说下载 金庸小说 武侠小说 聊天室 语音聊天室 列车时刻表