The one thing this debt ceiling death battle has succeeded in doing is making otherwise sane people start sounding like babbling idiots. I guess people are just starting to crack under the strain. I don’t know if it is just dawning on people or what, but electing dozens of tea baggers to Congress means that horrible things are going to happen. When you finally find out what those horrible things are going to be, you shouldn’t act shocked. This is why it was vitally important that people on the left show some unity of purpose instead of taking their ball and going home. But, when did that ever happen with a Democrat in the White House? I guess, when they tried to impeach Clinton we were united. Other than that? Never. It’s just who we are, and why we lose. Still, the magical thinking is depressing me.
Casual Observation
Why are you completely writing off the use of the 14th amendment as a possibility? I know you mentioned Laurence Tribe in the other thread, but other prominent lawyers, including several Democratic congressional leaders, including Pelosi, Hoyer, Schumer, etc., are saying otherwise? Are they just spouting off or do they mean it?
Because if I’m a ratings agency, I’m downgrading the US before Obama even finishes his press conference announcing such a maneuver.
You can’t be pulling crazy shit like that on a whim.
Seriously, wtf are people thinking with this 14th amendment/trillion dollar coins shit? How can people say that rather than say the true and sane thing: our system is broken and conservatives are the problem here. Then move from that to recognizing that the only solution is a political solution and that can only happen in 2012. That should be the message out of this debt crisis. The Republicans have shown they are willing to kill this country for their principles; Democrats are not. We want the country to live and thrive and therefore are at a distinct disadvantage in this… Read more »
I perfectly see your point. I happen to think that this course of action guarantees total defeat in 2012. If science shows anything about elections is that they are about employment-economy and mythical narratives/structures. A “weak” president who caves to republicans with 9% unemployment has no way to push democrats to the winning line in 2012. He can win if republicans pick a nutcase. As long as the other side looks reasonable, he is toast. And the “Senate” and the House remain in republicans hand. Notice that anything short of 60 D votes in the Senate leads to a Republican… Read more »
once he gets the nomination, Romney will look reasonable
Yes…if this monstrosity passes, and Republicans pick Romney I think Obama may well lose the presidency. In any case, no way 61 democrats will be elected in the Senate: Economic policy will be exactly the same as now no matter what, Republicans will take the debt ceiling hostage demadnign cuts in Social Security and MeEdicaid. So my questions to all people supporting Obama (which do not think he is playng 11-dimensional chess) despite this fiasco is -How this deal affects the future of the US Senate dynamics regarding economic hostage-taking -How it affects the dismantling of the social safety net… Read more »
Ups I forgot.
I should have been more clear. The “they are crazy nuts so vote me” is not going to work in the House and Senate. It does not matter how many times we repeat it. Independents will see a shitty economy and a weak president. They may choose him over the other evil.. but there will not be a huge turn out to turn around a lot House and Senate races. Unemployment and “weak” is all they will hear. Some not-deeply engaged democrats may even hear “weak” and not vote.
A pleasure
Let me give you a little reality check.
When the president starts mentioning the 14th amendment and saying he’s going to ignore the debt ceiling and mint magical trillion dollar platinum coins, the impeachment starts the next day. And the world throws up its hands and wants nothing further to do with our treasury bills, and everyone can start canning vegetables. That’s why.
You know, I understand and agree with your point. Really, I do. And I also get incredibly frustrated with progressives who convinced themselves that Obama would be the second coming of Che Guevara when nothing he said or did as candidate could justify that conclusion. Still, heaping scorn on the people who heap scorn on Obama is in the end no more constructive than heaping scorn on Obama. Those folks aren’t the problem. They’re a side issue. Obama’s not the problem; he’s not perfect, but he’s not the reason our government and economy are train wrecks. We know what the… Read more »
So, why are people allowed to say truly deranged and uncharitable shit about the president on a constant basis, basically poisoning liberal opinion about him as if he’s pursuing his preferred agenda at the moment, and I can’t call them on it and disparage their logic?
Sorry, I’ve been off living life all evening. The debt ceiling deal was mercifully almost absent from the conversations. But to add a late reply: The operative word here is constant – I don’t mind people calling out Obama (or anyone else) when they do something inexcusable, but the problem is when it becomes a constant refrain, triggered at the slightest pretext. Similarly, I don’t disagree when you call out people who sound a lot like bitter old PUMAs in their irrational expectations in all situations that Obama is a sellout/corporate tool/reactionary/wimp (pick four). But when you do it constantly,… Read more »
No, you know what? The unity of purpose argument is BS when we are continually undercut from the right within our own party. How far am I supposed to extend this unity of puropse, after all? To Harry Reid? To Kent Conrad? To Ben Nelson? As long as we have officeholders like these (to say nothing of Leiberman), I will not, absolutely not take the blame for infighting. I have been a supporter of Obama through many of these battles, and I will continue to be as long as something like the McConnell plan passes or the 14th Amendendment is… Read more »
o yes, and Lieberman was BarryO’s mentor
I remember in 2006 when Lieberman was running against Lamont and Obama did a fundraiser for his good buddy Joe. With the exception of his very disappointing record on civil liberties, how Obama has governed has been pretty consistent with his record as Senator and his campaign rhetoric. Just as what happened with Bill Clinton in ’92 after 12 years of Reagan/Bush Sr., after Dubya far too many progressives were so desperate for a champion that they made one out of Obama without bothering to familiarize themselves with his incrementalist record. And now that he’s governing pretty much as promised… Read more »
I was referring to progressive critics of Obama. On the issues, most readers of this blog have far more in common with them than they do with the Conrads or Nelsons of the Democratic Party.
Do you understand why people vote? I don’t think a lot of people on the left do. Have the Democrats addressed the jobs crisis? Second, does the President really believe that austerity is going to help him in ’12? And now I know that Plouffe isn’t a genius, he was just lucky.
Do you read nothing of what booman posts here? Not that he’s the second coming either. But he’s pretty darned astute when it comes to assessing how we got to where we are and at the same time stating the case for why, grim as where we are might be, there’s simply no point to responding to that by going into the backyard, rending our garments, throwing dirt up over our backs, and howling about a third party. You could do a lot worse than listen to and carefully consider his many worthy observations.
YES Democrats have addressed the jobs crisis. Check Congress’s schedule and you will see all the jobs bill they put forth and how many times it got shot down or watered down by Republicans.
Then I want you to visit WH website video section and watch all of Obama’s trips around the country and the world where he talks about…..JOBS! But you know whatever, it gets ignored.
Again, closing down government in a few months is the only horrible thing that will happen no matter what. That is the result of electing dozens of tea-baggers. This 9% unemployment agreement is a completely self-inflicted wound/shot/disaster. And the problem is that republicans were willing to go over the top, and the president did not face them. It is not magical to say that Obama had the weapons to face them, he consider that it was not wise to use them and accepted defeat. And the probable defeat of democrats in the House and Senate in 2012. And I think… Read more »
Bullshit 9% unemployment is a self-inflicted wound/disaster. I’m not even going to go into the myriad of ways in which this is bullshit; I’m just going to say this kind of thinking makes you part of the fucking problem. This is a political war and it has economic consequences; but there can only be a political resolution and that can’t happen until 2012. That should be the message that comes out of the debt crisis but it’s not the one progressives and democrats are pushing; they’re just taking the time to be mad NOT at the Republicans but at the… Read more »
Believe, I understand your point because I have the same idea as you regarding this fight, but I happen to disagree on the specifics.
See my answer above.
And this agreement will produce 9% unemployment in 2012.. the above comment indicates why this is very important for the fight.
A pleasure
Will Rogers on Democratic unity: I am not a member of any organized party — I am a Democrat. The year 1935–three years into FDR’s first term. From the same year: So when all the yielding and objections is over, the other Senator said, “I object to the remarks of a professional joker being put into the Congressional Record.” Taking a dig at me, see? They didn’t want any outside fellow contributing. Well, he had me wrong. Compared to them I’m an amateur, and the thing about my jokes is that they don’t hurt anybody. You can say they’re not… Read more »
Funny, I saw that last one happen once to my best high school buddy and it wasn’t pretty. Memorable, though.
What gets me depressed is that I believe the CR runs out at the end of September and we will be having this type of hostage fight once again. Do we go straight into that or is there an actual focus on jobs?
Republicans are not looking to govern; they’re looking to fight. That’s how they operated in the minority and they’re doing the same in the majority.
It’s crisis governing and Democrats need to call them out on that bullshit. The President developed the hostage meme; now instead of using it against him why not simply go to the American people and say the Republican party is committed to killing this country.
That’s the kind of shit blue state Democratic senators and representatives can say without repercussion; as can bloggers and columnists. They should, because the President can not.
Good point. But exactly how does that get out to ordinary voters who don’t read liberal blogs? Because those blue state Senators will never be on the national media to say it and if they are they will be counterweighted with a Democrat who doesn’t like the nastiness on both sides. The President is the only Democrat right now who can penetrate the establishment media’s iron curtain. He has the attention of the American people right now. And he can say it in a way that people will understand but does not offend them. “Congress has instructed me in appropriations… Read more »
There is no focus on jobs until the back of the GOP-media axis is broken with ordinary voters. If 9% are unemployed, 91% have jobs and are grateful for them and lower taxes looks just dandy to them.
On March 4, 2007, shortly after announcing his candidacy for president, Sen. Obama gave a speech titled “The Joshua Generation” at Brown Chapel AME Church in Selma. In the audience were many of the heroes and great preachers of the civil rights movement. It’s worth reading. http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2007/03/obamas_selma_speech_text_as_de.html At the beginning of the speech he laid his claim to the mantle of the civil rights movement by, basically, calling them the “Moses generation”, noting that even Moses didn’t get to cross over into the Promised Land, and talking about the unfinished work that is the responsibility of the “Joshua generation”. (And… Read more »
so, when will our Joshua start fighting? so far he has extended tax cuts needlessly and in this new deal, opened the possibility of cuts to medicare.
This “Joshua” is little more than a false prophet. He will continue to fight for the ruling class while pretending to be something different. I think you’ve already sussed that out. So many can’t, or won’t, though.
When will it dawn on you that Obama is the father of the Tea Baggers? His lack of leadership on the economy elected them.
Now you ask us to unify behind him in fighting the beast he created? Talk about “magical thinking”.
Lost cause.
Aren’t you just precious?! But no, I’m referring to your pronouncement that Obama is the father of the teabaggers. I could, of course, ask what you mean by that. Are you saying it’s his race that has given their lunatic views such currency? It wouldn’t seem so. His policies, then? I kind of assume that’s what you’re saying. Of course, the fact that they really kicked into gear within weeks of Obama’s inauguration is problematic, but I’m guessing you might say they would’ve died out after that if Obama’s policies hadn’t breathed new life into their lunacy. Or something along… Read more »
Holy Shit! Not the funding by the Kochs’ or the massive media push by all the major networks especially FOX news? The Teabaggers are OBAMA’S FAULT? HOLY SHIT ON A CRACKER!
And the left wonder’s why the GOP NEVER pays for their crimes?
The part about why the GOP never pays for their crimes. That’s something else you can lay at Obama’s door. “Let’s look forward and not back” – remember?
It’s incredible that I disagreed with Armando on nearly everything during the primaries, and now I can only find myself nodding my head: It appears that we are winding our way to inevitable defeat in the Debt Ceiling Debacle. The loss was guaranteed in December, and the President and Democrats in Congress basically have no choice but to capitulate. Not raising the debt ceiling would be catastrophic. The hope was that immediate spending cuts would be minimized. There is no reporting on that crucial aspect of the deal nor on who is expected to vote for the debt ceiling deal… Read more »
I really do not understand this aspect. Bush tax cuts for the rich get extended if GOP allows votes?
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2011/07/negotiating-all-but-done-for-27-trillion-deficit-red
uction-deal-now-comes-the-selling.html
If we don’t get more revenue through closing loopholes and lowering tax rates, Obama will veto any extension of the tax cuts.
Obama still wants tax cuts for the middle class.
That’s great tactical advise for the Party, but the problem with Obama still remains. He’ll say that, though the Debt deal is far from perfect, it contains some good things as well; he will not frame it as a defeat. So, basically, he’s going to tell us it’s only raining while he continues to piss all over us.
Remember… ”We are the ones that we have been waiting for.” Yeah, right. Warren 2012.
A-FUCKING MEN BOOMAN!
When we lost the House, most people seem to understand that we weren’t going to get anything we wanted for the next two years and those people are now SHOCKED, SHOCKED, that at what is happening now.
Their alternative? Obama shouldn’t budge an inch. Doesn’t work like that. Obama is not going to spend 2-4 years of his presidency giving motivational speeches and fighting the left’s ideological battle. He actually wants to continue to accomplish things.
And even now he is. His deal with the Auto makers is a Gigantic step in the right direction.
Who are you talking about?
Taking a machete to federal spending and further destroying the economy with this “deal” isn’t an accomplishment he should be proud of.
We interrupt this circular firing squad meeting to ask a simple question:
Does anyone outside of Reid, McConnell, Pelosi, Boehner, and President Obama know what’s happening? Apparently the rank-and-file members of the caucuses don’t or are pretending they don’t.
BooMan writes: electing dozens of tea baggers to Congress means that horrible things are going to happen That’s why Obama should have included a raising of the debt ceiling when he made a deal to extend the Bush tax cuts in December 2010. He was dealing with the 111th Congress at the time. That’s not magical thinking. Other approaches that were not tried include: threatening 14th amendment or $2 trillion dollar coin, brinksmanship back in May when the “official” limit was reached, more bully pulpit, etc. Show me where Obama is different on policy than from Blue Dog Harold Ford.… Read more »
“Show me where Obama is different on policy than from Blue Dog Harold Ford.”
I know it’s easy to confuse the two because all blacks look alike, but Ford is anti-choice, voted to invade iraq, supports DOMA, and wanted to keep DADT.
100+, you win the internets as they say over at tpm
BooMan, the media is rumoring that there is a deal and outlines what they claim are the provisions. When there is legislative language of this “deal”, would you post links to it so that we can see the details. ABC is reporting something called the “neutron bomb” that looks more attractive politically than the Joint Committee actually working. The reported terms are that failure of the Joint Committee to get it’s proposals passed results in an immediately triggering a 10-year plan of cuts of $1.5T of cuts from military expenditures, Medicare providers (but not beneficiaries), and other items. This… Read more »
I’m honestly not sure who you’re talking about here, those on the left who are taking their ball home. Do you mean the extremists who are calling for Obama to be primaried? Do you mean people like druma and Yglesias who’ve been critical of his tactics? Do you mean Decocratic representatives and senators who’ve signaled their alarm with how far the President was willing to compromise? Unless you’re specific, it’s hard to know how to respond to what you say. I have felt since last November or so, that at some point, Democrats need to refuse to compromise with Republicans,… Read more »
Brilliant. There is another problem. A purely economic one. This compromise does something which any other outcome would not. This is, it guarantees a very high level of unemployment during the election. The consequences of this fact can not be understated or underestimated. It is the end of the Keynesian brand in the Democratic party. Actually, the end of the presence of at least one party which recognizes basic macro 101, you only cut spending when you have a bubble or full employment. This deal will lead to either a double dip with 10% unemployment (or higher), or to a… Read more »
. Is that the Democratic Democratic party, or the Republican Democratic Party?
Because only the first ever embraced Keynes.
Such are the joys of coalition politics.
America: Three parties, two labels.
Now, it is the democratic wing of the democrats 🙂
The US political system has the same level of disfunctionality than euro-land.
Who could have guessed than US and Europe would be trying to beat each other in how fast they lose any economical (and geopolitical) relevance.
A pleasure
I am sure that ignoring Congress, printing platinum fairy debt removers, getting impeached, having a year-long Constitutional crisis in an election year, all of that would have done wonders for the unemployment rate. Yeah, that’s the ticket.
You gotta admit, it would Send A Message.
I’m not sure what message, and to whom, but Send A Message it surely would.
And at the end of the day, isn’t that what politics is really all about?
I want to know what the 2 trillion $ platinum coin will look like.
Some wag suggested this is when Reagan finally gets his face on a coin…
It doesn’t have to look like a coin. It probably would not have to have protection against shaving; it’s weight at the moment is incidental. It’s not going to circulate. It doesn’t have to look pretty. A hunk of metal stamped with a denomination would do. It probably does not even have to be physically transferred to a Federal Reserve, just the record of ownership. But if Boehner goes for the deal as is, it has become, like BooMan says, a fairy tale. And all Boehner has to deliver is 24 votes, if Sam Stein’s sources are correct. The House… Read more »
I guess you mentioned this before, but then there’s nothing about the amount and % of platinum?
Impeachment? Do you have nay doubt that republicans will impeach him anyhow? If they can impeach him because he follows the law, they will do it during the government shutdown or any other excuse. The constitutional crisis is a scapegoat so as not to give argument for the real problems. And sorry Booman, you do not have arguments for the,. We have a real constitutional crisis when 40 republican will be, from now on, able to block any legislation by holding the economy hostage. It really does not matter if Democrats get the House as long as they do not… Read more »
You might have the opportunity to find out. It’s a negotiated deal, but the rank-and-file in Congress have not been consulted yet (or so they say).
And the Tea Party folks would impeach just on general principles, no evidence needed.
I agree with you about one thing. The unemployment rate is pretty much hosed until after 2013. Unless the MOTU deign to start putting people back to work without consumer demand.
with no spending cuts, 7.5-8% was the expectation.. even 7% if Obama can push the FED to print more money (you know like the coins Booman so wrongly describe as fairy). They hope was that it would be declining and declining unemployment would be enough to push the House towards the democrats.
No, it is 8.5% if we are lucky. We won’t. And it even does not matter. A 41 Republican senate can take Obama and the economy hostage again. And how on earth are Democrats going to get 61 seats in 2012?
A pleasure
For whatever this is worth
http://twitter.com/#!/samsteinhp/statuses/97764852508000257
“breaking: Dem leaders are all in pelosi’s office, i’m told. and everyone has signed off on deal. waiting on Boehner.”
yeah, right
Here, Booman. I figured I’d post something my friend wrote to lift your spirits (not that I agree with it all…I don’t think the debt ceiling debacle was inevitable, but I was prepared for a shitty FY2012-2013): I have literally been saying this since last year, but what did anyone honestly expect would happen after the November election? This is what happens when you elect a Republican Congress. You cut social programs. This isn’t unique to the Obama presidency. This happened after 1994. It happened in the 1980’s. It even happened during the Truman administration after 1946. This is what… Read more »
This is a good piece. Does he have a blog or something somewhere?
Not uh, he just writes FB notes. But we are both administrators for a Progressive FB Page that we started. Doesn’t really reach a wide audience, but it’s something! (like 24,000 views per month)
Can like it over here:
Progressives United for Change
Russ Feingold stole our name 😛 (our page existed before his…)
That’s a very nice piece. Kudos to him.
he’s right, of course. Completely right. Maybe he’s a little sanguine about the costs of persistent unemployment, and the risks to our 2012 campaigns, but otherwise he’s right.
Or completely fucking wrong. Or perhaps we’re now pretending that it doesn’t matter who controls the Senate? You know, the gigantic fucking bottleneck that controls the fate of everything? Because Harry Reid running the senate, and Mitch McConnell running the senate are damn near the same thing, right? Anybody who says that “They came extremely close to taking back the US Senate, and, if you count conservative Democrats, they basically controlled it anyway.” is simply not credible. Given that he’s an apparent spin artist whose standards for “decimation” are not being able to pass a constitutional amendment in six weeks,… Read more »
Wow this just pisses me the hell off. TPM has decided to replay the PUMA wars of 2008. They have a post up from one of the editors titled “Buyer’s Remorse” and they are asking people to send them emails @TPM Talking Points Memo Would Hillary Clinton have handled the debt crisis better than Obama? TPM asked. You answered: http://tpm.ly/oO2uFN ^@tflane This has absolutely nothing to do with being an O-bot, I just want to know WTWH is the fuckin’ point of whole shoulda, woulda coulda BS? Does TPM needs page views that badly? Or has everybody in the… Read more »
Feck sake. Hillary lost, she got over it in a few weeks and went on to be an outstanding Sec of State. She would probably kick these jerks in the balls if she knew they were still going over this.
yes, saw that. it’s Booman’s point, otherwise sane ppl acting like babbling idiots, and yours, everybody in the liberal blogosphere gone fuckin’ crazy. while we were having our circular firing squad over here, tpm was exploring parallel universes of unreality. but I decided to speculate on what the 2 trillion $ coin would/ will look like. except I think it’s probably better to have two 1 trillion $ coins in case one gets lost.
except lead. Maureen Dowd: The world is watching in fearful — and sometimes gleeful — fascination as the Tea Party drives a Thunderbird off the cliff with the president and speaker of the House strapped in the back. The Dow is hiding under the bed with a glass of single malt. Can it get more excruciating? Apple has more cash than the U.S. government. Amid the chilling anarchy, there’s not a single strong leader to be seen — not even a misguided one. All the leaders are followers. You have to wonder if President Obama at some level doesn’t want… Read more »
You are quoting Maureen Dowd now?
Tell me, who wouldn’t you quote that has a bad opinion of Obama. Sean Hannity maybe?
The fact that he didn’t ‘cave’ 3 months ago should tell you all you need to know. And all the repubs will get out of their posturing is a few billion in cuts, their reputation in tatters and not even have worked twords repealing obamacare.
But hey bitch at Obama for making more progress twords progressive causes in 2 years than Clinton managed in 8.
Maybe you could post something from the Washington Times next. Oh yeah they are rubbishing Republican too, we cant have that…
Complaining that Obama acts like a conservative Republican makes me a fan of the Washington Times?
You make no sense.
My obvious point was that if its an editorial criticizing Obama you will point to it and laugh, no matter what the source. Anything that fits your internal narrative.
It’s classic MoDo. Of course, it’s “neutering” the President.
As for selling a plan to the public: (1) it’s kinda hard to do that negotiate the plan yourself, and (2) just what we need a black President stumping the country when tensions are supercharged. Healthcare reform brought out the gun nuts.
And the Jimmy Carter meme is what the Village intends to use to defeat him in 2012. Just you wait. Carter plus cut your Medicare and Social Security–and ignored unemployment. Enough truth to build some monstrous half-truths around. And as everyone knows, half-truths are more persistent than outright lies.
is “classic Obama”.
Health care reform didn’t bring out any nuts – it misdirected the focus in the most powerful year this president will ever have. We can never get that back.
The most powerful year the president had was exactly the time to power down on it.
And even then it took over a year. But hey that wasn’t fighting, that was caving, right?
Ugh. I’ve been less than thrilled with the strategy the administration has pursued regarding raising the debt ceiling. I feel free to say what I think in the comment section of blogs, even though I don’t really know much about politics, because I’m secure in the knowledge what I say won’t make much difference, and I appreciate the chance to voice my thoughts and hear others. But if I were a Democratic senator, I would never ever talk like that about the President. I wonder who they were; I suppose they didn’t have the guts to talk on the record?… Read more »
… Dems and especially the Dem leadership, not so much.
(Except against the left, of course, but that’s a proud tradition now.)
a little clarity here on Obama’s deal. George Will on the deal: “Conservatives are saying it’s imperfect, to which one must say, the Sistine Chapel is probably in some sense imperfect.”